A View From The Top Of The World track discussion

[Kram]

Octavarium
A View
6DOIT
ACOS
ITPOE
TCOT


IT

[darkshade]

Octavarium
SDoIT
ACOS
TCOT
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW
IT

but I don't know if I consider A View a true epic. It's just a longer song to me, like In The Name of God.

[The Letter M]

Octavarium
A View
6DOIT
ACOS
ITPOE
TCOT


IT

Ooooh, is it that time again? Let's see...

SDOIT
8VM
ACOS
AVFTTOTW
ITPOE
TCOT
IT

-Marc.

[TAC]

8V
TCOT
ACOS
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW

IT

SDOIT

[Kram]

Octavarium
SDoIT
ACOS
TCOT
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW
IT

but I don't know if I consider A View a true epic. It's just a longer song to me, like In The Name of God.

I think over twenty minutes constitutes an epic..

[The Letter M]

Octavarium
SDoIT
ACOS
TCOT
ITPOE
AVFTTOTW
IT

but I don't know if I consider A View a true epic. It's just a longer song to me, like In The Name of God.

I think over twenty minutes constitutes an epic..

I don't disagree, but prog fans can be pretty picky about what an epic constitutes, since length isn't always the deciding factor. There are plenty of 20-25 minute droning/psychedelic/spacey/atmospheric songs in that range that some fans might not necessarily call "epic". Then again, a song like "In The Name Of God" is fairly epic, but only reaches about 14:14 long. Likewise, "The Count Of Tuscany" and "Illumination Theory" are just over 19 minutes (if you don't count the latter's hidden bonus track after the gap of blank space), though many fans would argue that being above 18 or 19 would just round up to 20.

I personally would say they all count if they're seen as "Side-Length Epics" (although SDOIT would be two sides, technically), which is what most fans think of when they think of epics, with songs like Yes' "Close To The Edge" and "The Gates Of Delirium", or Genesis' "Supper's Ready", and of course Rush's "2112" and "Hemispheres", which are all on a single side of vinyl with nothing else. Many of the above Dream Theater songs would fit this bill, even the ones that aren't technically 20 minutes or longer.

-Marc.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Numerically A View's title track is an epic, but to me it feels more like a normal DT song that just so happens to be 20 minutes. For that reason I find it difficult to rank among the other epics.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

how about epic is >10m and mega-epic is >20m?

[geeeemo]

IT
ITPOE
Octavarium
TCOT
ACOS
SDoIT
AVFTTOTW

I'm having a hard time with this one. Epics are my very favorite songs from DT. (Epic and Mega). My most played playlist is DT Epics.

This new one has lots of great stuff. The music sounds new and cool. But I am not moved in my emotion. That's the difference for me.

[TAC]

This new one has lots of great stuff. The music sounds new and cool. But I am not moved in my emotion. That's the difference for me.

I think they absolutely blew that last vocal passage.

[KevShmev]

I get that they went for a different kind of ending this time, and maybe I have been conditioned to expect a more epic ending, but it feels like this one just kind of ends.  On one hand, sure, maybe we didn't need another grandiose ending like we got in Octavarium, Illumination Theory or the last song of the Six Degrees suite, but it feels like the last few minutes of this song didn't do the first 2/3 of it justice.

[TAC]

I get that they went for a different kind of ending this time, and maybe I have been conditioned to expect a more epic ending, but it feels like this one just kind of ends. 

It has a similar ending as Bridges In The Sky. I expect that last vocal note to go one way, and it goes in the complete opposite direction. It has the feeling of having the rug pulled out from underneath.

[KevShmev]

I get that they went for a different kind of ending this time, and maybe I have been conditioned to expect a more epic ending, but it feels like this one just kind of ends. 

It has a similar ending as Bridges In The Sky. I expect that last vocal note to go one way, and it goes in the complete opposite direction. It has the feeling of having the rug pulled out from underneath.

I don't really see the connection there.  And I think the way Bridges in the Sky ends vocally is perfect.  It is more wistful, which was a contrast to the hopeful way it was sung earlier in the song.  Very effective. 

[erwinrafael]

The turn at the end is actually more like Scarred.

[jayvee3]

I get that they went for a different kind of ending this time, and maybe I have been conditioned to expect a more epic ending, but it feels like this one just kind of ends.  On one hand, sure, maybe we didn't need another grandiose ending like we got in Octavarium, Illumination Theory or the last song of the Six Degrees suite, but it feels like the last few minutes of this song didn't do the first 2/3 of it justice.

I sort of agree with most of this. Absolutely love the track, and it’s not the ending as such to me, as I like the finally free-esque outro, wrapping up fine instrumentally.

But that last “legacy” vocal note and the abrupt time change, I’m not sure is my cup of tea. Only a small thing from an otherwise terrific song, but the ending usually is pretty grandiose, so I think if that was something nice (again, perhaps like Finally frees “someday soooon”), it would suit the outro a little better. At least for the album version. What JLB did with it live could then depend on how he is feeling on the night to best look after his voice…

[darkshade]

I consider an epic anything over 15-16 minutes, but it's all relative. If a band mostly sticks with roughly 3-5 minute songs, a 10-12 minute song will be epic for them. For DT, 19-20 minutes isn't THAT long considering the lengths of some of their other songs. Regardless, it's not the length but what you do with it, as they say. A Nightmare to Remember is 16 minutes, but not an epic right? I don't think anyone considers it as such. Epic should be about a journey taken musically, it should be grandiose, and I don't feel like the title track of the new album leaves the musical space created by the rest of the album to give off that feeling. It's just a longer song than Sleeping Giant and Awaken The Master. I actually think The Alien has more of an epic feel, but condensed into 9+ minutes. Breaking All Illusions from ADTOE is more like an epic, and done in half the time as AV.

[Lonk]

I'll go with what the band said, and if they consider it an epic, then it is an epic to me.

Regarding the last vocal line, I don't understand the disappointment. Theoretically(music), it makes sense, harmonically, it makes sense. It's just a different type of ending that doesn't ascend, but it still works. I'm actually happy that this epic is different that the other ones in terms of ending, and that we get JP's melodic solo in the middle instead of closing out the piece.

This album keeps getting better and better for me 

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, which is why I described this from the first time I heard it as a "brave" epic because it did not follow the expectations set by DT in their earlier long compositions.

[erciccio]

ACOS
SDoIT
Octavarium
IT
ITPOE
TCOT
----
AVFTTOTW

AVFTTOTW is a total miss for me. 

[geeeemo]

This song is Dream Theater. They are sitting on top of the world, Prog Metal Kings. 

[Dublagent66]

I haven't listened to the album in its entirety yet, but you can bet that I went straight to the closing epic title track.  The last time they did a closing track around 20 mins (DT12), I was nothing short of mortified.  Even after several spins over many years, Illumination Theory continues to be DT's worst epic IMO.  I'm happy to say that after the first listen of this new title track, I found it to be chock full of nothing but totally awesome!  That's pretty rare for me after only one spin of a song that long.  I like everything about it.  There's a lot of new tasty passages and different twists that don't sound re-manufactured.  I really have to say that I'm quite relieved.

What makes it such a mortifyingly bad epic to you?

Well, maybe "mortified" is too strong a word.  Extremely disappointed.  I'll spare all the gory details.  However, I do know from a overall fan base perspective, IT doesn't hold up very well compared to the other epics and with good reason as some others have indicated.

[bosk1]

Can someone explain to me what is happening in the Rapture Of The Deep section?

Sure.  I think I have listened enough to be able to digest it and paraphrase.  So, what I hear happening is:  JP, JM, JR, and MM are playing their instruments.  And James is doing some singing.

Hope that helps! 

[ReaPsTA]

I get that they went for a different kind of ending this time, and maybe I have been conditioned to expect a more epic ending, but it feels like this one just kind of ends.  On one hand, sure, maybe we didn't need another grandiose ending like we got in Octavarium, Illumination Theory or the last song of the Six Degrees suite, but it feels like the last few minutes of this song didn't do the first 2/3 of it justice.

I think the ending would be fine but for one thing. When James sings the "self belief will build a life of legacy" line, they should have hung on the end of "legacy for a few seconds." Let it sit a bit, let the audience feel the impact a bit. As played it just goes right into the outro jam. It undermines its own impact.

It's a shame because structurally I like how the big epic note isn't the ending. Musically, it's something different from the usual and it's nice to see them resurrect a structural idea from the Metropolis Part II demo. In terms of the song's story too, the narrator tells about their own journey, and the ending implicitly says, "now it's time for yours."

But just cutting right from the epic final vocal section to the outro feels like such a mistake. Undercuts what's otherwise a very good song.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I haven't listened to the album in its entirety yet, but you can bet that I went straight to the closing epic title track.  The last time they did a closing track around 20 mins (DT12), I was nothing short of mortified.  Even after several spins over many years, Illumination Theory continues to be DT's worst epic IMO.  I'm happy to say that after the first listen of this new title track, I found it to be chock full of nothing but totally awesome!  That's pretty rare for me after only one spin of a song that long.  I like everything about it.  There's a lot of new tasty passages and different twists that don't sound re-manufactured.  I really have to say that I'm quite relieved.

What makes it such a mortifyingly bad epic to you?

Well, maybe "mortified" is too strong a word.  Extremely disappointed.  I'll spare all the gory details.  However, I do know from a overall fan base perspective, IT doesn't hold up very well compared to the other epics and with good reason as some others have indicated.

How do you know that the overall fan base thinks that IT doesn't hold up well? ACOS is attributed to the I&W days so I realize that one is likely on par with a record that can never be matched, though we have fans on this forum who think it is their worst epic. But depending on how you define epic, you could have TCOT, 8VM there, which seem to me a lot easier to compare to IT in terms of favorability. If you adjust for the MP diehards who will never accept MM-era DT, I wonder what a 'normalized' level of appreciation would be for IT amongst the base. Or even including them, I am not sure how one would gauge its popularity to a fanbase whose opinions are as diverse as can be.

[RAIN]

I like the song.  I really do.  But, I find it choppy and disjointed.  I don't feel the change at 14:11.  And the fact that the whole song never seems to have a growing peak throws me off for such a long song.  And the choruses are really short and to the point.
But like I said, I like it, but it's not near the top of their Epics.

[ReaPsTA]

I haven't listened to the album in its entirety yet, but you can bet that I went straight to the closing epic title track.  The last time they did a closing track around 20 mins (DT12), I was nothing short of mortified.  Even after several spins over many years, Illumination Theory continues to be DT's worst epic IMO.  I'm happy to say that after the first listen of this new title track, I found it to be chock full of nothing but totally awesome!  That's pretty rare for me after only one spin of a song that long.  I like everything about it.  There's a lot of new tasty passages and different twists that don't sound re-manufactured.  I really have to say that I'm quite relieved.

What makes it such a mortifyingly bad epic to you?

Well, maybe "mortified" is too strong a word.  Extremely disappointed.  I'll spare all the gory details.  However, I do know from a overall fan base perspective, IT doesn't hold up very well compared to the other epics and with good reason as some others have indicated.

How do you know that the overall fan base thinks that IT doesn't hold up well? ACOS is attributed to the I&W days so I realize that one is likely on par with a record that can never be matched, though we have fans on this forum who think it is their worst epic. But depending on how you define epic, you could have TCOT, 8VM there, which seem to me a lot easier to compare to IT in terms of favorability. If you adjust for the MP diehards who will never accept MM-era DT, I wonder what a 'normalized' level of appreciation would be for IT amongst the base. Or even including them, I am not sure how one would gauge its popularity to a fanbase whose opinions are as diverse as can be.

From what I can tell here and from reading Youtube comments, there are a sizeable contingent both of people who think it's great and people who think it's just okay. The real haters seem to be in the minority. I agree that ACOS is the most liked and I think 8vm is the second most. But between ITPOE/TCOT/IT/AVVTTOTW I don't think you can necessarily clearly rank them.

But what I do know is - I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I haven't listened to the album in its entirety yet, but you can bet that I went straight to the closing epic title track.  The last time they did a closing track around 20 mins (DT12), I was nothing short of mortified.  Even after several spins over many years, Illumination Theory continues to be DT's worst epic IMO.  I'm happy to say that after the first listen of this new title track, I found it to be chock full of nothing but totally awesome!  That's pretty rare for me after only one spin of a song that long.  I like everything about it.  There's a lot of new tasty passages and different twists that don't sound re-manufactured.  I really have to say that I'm quite relieved.

What makes it such a mortifyingly bad epic to you?

Well, maybe "mortified" is too strong a word.  Extremely disappointed.  I'll spare all the gory details.  However, I do know from a overall fan base perspective, IT doesn't hold up very well compared to the other epics and with good reason as some others have indicated.

How do you know that the overall fan base thinks that IT doesn't hold up well? ACOS is attributed to the I&W days so I realize that one is likely on par with a record that can never be matched, though we have fans on this forum who think it is their worst epic. But depending on how you define epic, you could have TCOT, 8VM there, which seem to me a lot easier to compare to IT in terms of favorability. If you adjust for the MP diehards who will never accept MM-era DT, I wonder what a 'normalized' level of appreciation would be for IT amongst the base. Or even including them, I am not sure how one would gauge its popularity to a fanbase whose opinions are as diverse as can be.

From what I can tell here and from reading Youtube comments, there are a sizeable contingent both of people who think it's great and people who think it's just okay. The real haters seem to be in the minority. I agree that ACOS is the most liked and I think 8vm is the second most. But between ITPOE/TCOT/IT/AVVTTOTW I don't think you can necessarily clearly rank them.

But what I do know is - I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

Your last point (what you “know”) is also incorrect because I also like the orchestral section

[rab7]

Your last point (what you “know”) is also incorrect because I also like the orchestral section

Seconded. My wife walked down the aisle to that part.

I think those who don't like the middle section are really only against the ambient quiet part before the strings come in.

[NoFred]

Your last point (what you “know”) is also incorrect because I also like the orchestral section

Seconded. My wife walked down the aisle to that part.

I think those who don't like the middle section are really only against the ambient quiet part before the strings come in.

That’s fair, but I love the ambient part and how it fits into what the song is trying to say. The strings on the other hand are the song killer.

[AVFTTOTW]

Octavarium
A View
6DOIT
ACOS
ITPOE
TCOT


IT

For me:

ITPOE
ACOS
SDOIT
AVFTTOTW
8VM


....
TCOT
IT


(even though TCOT has a few cool bits)

[ThatOneGuy2112]

.

[TAC]

Can someone explain to me what is happening in the Rapture Of The Deep section?

Sure.  I think I have listened enough to be able to digest it and paraphrase.  So, what I hear happening is:  JP, JM, JR, and MM are playing their instruments.  And James is doing some singing.

Hope that helps! 

Oh it helps immensely. I was so confused, but this totally clears it up.

[darkshade]

Gave this one its own listen. OK, it's an epic, but it's the least epic of their epics in sound. The middle slower section is nice with the cello-sounding effect JR uses during the section's main theme. It just doesn't quite 'go there' as most epics do. It's long, but feels a bit repetitive at times. As I said, they've been more epic on much shorter songs like Lines in the Sand and Breaking All Illusions.

From what I can tell, AV is a better written composition overall than IT, but AV feels disjointed. Not patched together like IT sounds, but sections of AV feel unrelated to each other. Not every epic needs a grandiose finale like on Octavarium or Close to the Edge, but I think any long piece of music needs that 'payoff' moment, or a peak, and I feel it never comes on AV.

Will need more listens.

[Cool Chris]

Can someone explain to me what is happening in the Rapture Of The Deep section?

Sure.  I think I have listened enough to be able to digest it and paraphrase.  So, what I hear happening is:  JP, JM, JR, and MM are playing their instruments.  And James is doing some singing.

Hope that helps! 

Oh it helps immensely. I was so confused, but this totally clears it up.

You neglected to point out the key the song is in and the time signature. TAC cannot enjoy a song without that information.

[Buddyhunter1]

I love the fake finale with those kind of classical music descending chords that Jordan plays. And then BAM into that super-sleazy riff.

The tease of the melody from the final movement makes that bit even better. Looking at the lyrics now, the song's theme isn't actually quite this surface level, but whenever I listen to this song it to me feels like someone climbing up a mountain (with that title, can you blame me?). The middle movement is somewhat of a low point; the character beginning to break down due to exhaustion while still being far from the summit. They press on regardless, we get a lovely guitar solo showing their determination despite the undeniable struggle, and then the character finally catches a brief glimpse of the summit (the melody from the final movement). A fire lights within the character as their strength returns, and the energetic instrumental section represents their final, frantic ascent to the summit. And of course, the final movement is them finally reaching the top. Maybe this was accidental, but it works too well for me to ignore.

While it's definitely not my favorite DT epic, I really like this song and I'd probably rank it above IT but below Octavarium, ITPoE, ACoS and TCoT. The structure of the song is really great, and there's more memorable bits than most other songs on the album, to me. My only real complaint is I feel like some of the transitions are a bit rushed, and could have used a little more development to make them less abrupt-feeling. Namely:
- the 2nd verse into the 2nd chorus
- the transition into the 2nd movement
- the transition from the final instrumental section before the finale into that descending piano melody

So yes, I am saying that I think a 20 minute song should have been just slightly longer.