A View From The Top Of The World track discussion

[The Letter M]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

Well to be fair, it is a *first* reaction to the song. I'm sure even the best ears might not pick everything up the first time, and unless you want him talking over the whole song, and thus probably missing some things, he can't really spout out every little music theory detail he hears.

He's far more interesting than some reactors who just listen and don't even say much about simple "wow" and "whoa" and 'that was so cool!" comments. Maybe someone should start a Prog Song Theory Analysis music channel on YouTube, but that sounds too much like college homework. 🤣

-Marc.

[Dublagent66]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

What's the big deal with you?

Well, he doesn't have enough time to draw you pictures.  It's a reaction video, not music theory 101.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

Poppycock.  I assure you, you find yourself in good company.

So far, I really like this song, but I'm not sure yet where I would rank it with the other DT epics.  Definitely not as high as ACOS or as low as ITPOE, but other than that, I can't tell you.

I actually like that they didn't go the cliche route of the typical "epic ending".  Of course, they get slagged for it. 

DT's curse remains: Give the fanbase what they want/expect?  DT "by the numbers".  Give them something unexpected?  This is too different, I don't like it.

FFS

[ZirconBlue]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

Well to be fair, it is a *first* reaction to the song. I'm sure even the best ears might not pick everything up the first time, and unless you want him talking over the whole song, and thus probably missing some things, he can't really spout out every little music theory detail he hears.

He's far more interesting than some reactors who just listen and don't even say much about simple "wow" and "whoa" and 'that was so cool!" comments. Maybe someone should start a Prog Song Theory Analysis music channel on YouTube, but that sounds too much like college homework. 🤣

-Marc.

I feel like he should stop and rewind occasionally, so that he can go a little more in depth.  That approach can be overused, however (Charismatic Voice, I'm looking at you).


Or he could revisit some songs after more listens.

[bosk1]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

What's the big deal with you?

Well, he doesn't have enough time to draw you pictures.  It's a reaction video, not music theory 101.

You don't need to be so rude to people posting their opinions.  If you don't like what they are saying, either find a respectful way to disagree or move on.

[The Letter M]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

Well to be fair, it is a *first* reaction to the song. I'm sure even the best ears might not pick everything up the first time, and unless you want him talking over the whole song, and thus probably missing some things, he can't really spout out every little music theory detail he hears.

He's far more interesting than some reactors who just listen and don't even say much about simple "wow" and "whoa" and 'that was so cool!" comments. Maybe someone should start a Prog Song Theory Analysis music channel on YouTube, but that sounds too much like college homework. 🤣

-Marc.

I feel like he should stop and rewind occasionally, so that he can go a little more in depth.  That approach can be overused, however (Charismatic Voice, I'm looking at you).


Or he could revisit some songs after more listens.

  She really does stop, rewind, and start again quite a bit that by the end of it all, she's probably heard the song at least 3x in full if you cut it all together.

-Marc.

[bosk1]

Yeah, she does, and it can get a bit frustrating.  But with her, you just have to force yourself to be patient and try to understand that she is going for something different than a lot of reaction channels, and when it comes to singing, she really is giving a lot of cool insight.  But if you aren't onboard for that particular aspect of what she does, you may as well just move on from her channel because you will get frustrated by all the rewinding and commentary.

She has also done a remarkable job of being able to transform her channel from just a vocal reaction channel into a conduit to have some spectacularly great and insightful discussions with some of the vocalists she initially reacted to (James, Devin Townsend, Myles Kennedy, etc.).  Hats off to her. 

[lovethedrake]

I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

Poppycock.  I assure you, you find yourself in good company.

So far, I really like this song, but I'm not sure yet where I would rank it with the other DT epics.  Definitely not as high as ACOS or as low as ITPOE, but other than that, I can't tell you.

I actually like that they didn't go the cliche route of the typical "epic ending".  Of course, they get slagged for it. 

DT's curse remains: Give the fanbase what they want/expect?  DT "by the numbers".  Give them something unexpected?  This is too different, I don't like it.

FFS

Those would be my top (ACOS) and bottom (ITPOE) as well and I also like that they didn't do the typical Epic Ending.   I think the ending after "legacy" could have been better though.  Not because it didn't rise to a big epic guitar solo, just because the riff isn't that great.   I don't have a problem with the ending in general, I like it.

[Kram]

I actually like that they didn't go the cliche route of the typical "epic ending".  Of course, they get slagged for it. 

DT's curse remains: Give the fanbase what they want/expect?  DT "by the numbers".  Give them something unexpected?  This is too different, I don't like it.

FFS

I agree.  For me, this is the best song they've done since Octavrium period!  So much good stuff in here.

[convrge]

The Daily Doug... Breaks down the song. If you wanna check that out.

Just watched his reaction video and I'm not sure what the big deal is with this guy. A few comments about the lyrics, "here is a meter change", "there was a half step change", etc. For a classical composer, I was expecting a more in depth analysis regarding the theory of the tune.

Well to be fair, it is a *first* reaction to the song. I'm sure even the best ears might not pick everything up the first time, and unless you want him talking over the whole song, and thus probably missing some things, he can't really spout out every little music theory detail he hears.

He's far more interesting than some reactors who just listen and don't even say much about simple "wow" and "whoa" and 'that was so cool!" comments. Maybe someone should start a Prog Song Theory Analysis music channel on YouTube, but that sounds too much like college homework. 🤣

-Marc.

I feel like he should stop and rewind occasionally, so that he can go a little more in depth.  That approach can be overused, however (Charismatic Voice, I'm looking at you).


Or he could revisit some songs after more listens.

Yes, I think he could have occasionally stopped and rewound the track to better analyze some of the chord changes and point out musical themes that he particularly liked. I just didn't get much out of watching his video. Maybe I don't get "reaction videos".

[ReaPsTA]

I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

Poppycock.  I assure you, you find yourself in good company.

I'm not alone!!!!!!!!

I actually like that they didn't go the cliche route of the typical "epic ending".  Of course, they get slagged for it. 

DT's curse remains: Give the fanbase what they want/expect?  DT "by the numbers".  Give them something unexpected?  This is too different, I don't like it.

FFS

Again I think this is an issue with execution not concept. They just moved right along from the last vocal section to play the song out which makes it impossible for the audience to digest it in the flow of the moment. I could not help but notice when our favorite reactor Doug got to that section and called it "interesting."

[TAC]

I'm the only one who likes the orchestral section in IT.

Poppycock.  I assure you, you find yourself in good company.

I'm not alone!!!!!!!!

I actually like that they didn't go the cliche route of the typical "epic ending".  Of course, they get slagged for it. 

DT's curse remains: Give the fanbase what they want/expect?  DT "by the numbers".  Give them something unexpected?  This is too different, I don't like it.

FFS

Again I think this is an issue with execution not concept. They just moved right along from the last vocal section to play the song out which makes it impossible for the audience to digest it in the flow of the moment. I could not help but notice when our favorite reactor Doug got to that section and called it "interesting."

His mood changed completely. When Doug calls some thing interesting in that tone, he's basically saying WTF was that?

That quick transition from the "..legacy" to the outro feels like it was pasted wrong.

[ReaPsTA]

That quick transition from the "..legacy" to the outro feels like it was pasted wrong.

Well put

[svisser]

So this is the one track that is making it sooooo hard to write a review for this album. I keep going between 80 and 85% as a score. I have listened to this song 8 times over now, and I think I am starting to understand it more. It is not their best epic, but it is certainly better than IT. Nothing will ever beat Octavarium though.

I think what I don't like about the song is that the beginning sounds like one song and the rest goes off in a totally different direction. Like there is not much of a progression in the first movement of the song. Then again, I think  I need to just give some time to listen to all their epics in order so I can better understand how this one sits in relation to the others. I did that with the rest of the album and it made me see just how "DT" this album is.

[ReaPsTA]

So this is the one track that is making it sooooo hard to write a review for this album. I keep going between 80 and 85% as a score. I have listened to this song 8 times over now, and I think I am starting to understand it more. It is not their best epic, but it is certainly better than IT. Nothing will ever beat Octavarium though.

I think what I don't like about the song is that the beginning sounds like one song and the rest goes off in a totally different direction. Like there is not much of a progression in the first movement of the song. Then again, I think  I need to just give some time to listen to all their epics in order so I can better understand how this one sits in relation to the others. I did that with the rest of the album and it made me see just how "DT" this album is.

Other than the weird transition at the end, I think the other problem with this song is that the instrumental sections are just a bit too long. Like when you sit down and listen to them there's no particular note or section that's actually bad, but they take their time going where they want to go. Obviously in a 20 minute song the ideas are going to be more long form, but at least in theory the length should be because there are more ideas in a song, or ideas that need more development, rather than taking ideas that can be expressed in x time and expressing them in 1.5x the time.

Look at a song like TCOT. That song *moves*. Every idea is given exactly as much time as it needs and then onto the next one. Even the ambient solo is built around two primary melodic ideas that it explores quickly then moves on from. I like the new epic more overall, but I appreciate that aspect of The Count.

[svisser]

So this is the one track that is making it sooooo hard to write a review for this album. I keep going between 80 and 85% as a score. I have listened to this song 8 times over now, and I think I am starting to understand it more. It is not their best epic, but it is certainly better than IT. Nothing will ever beat Octavarium though.

I think what I don't like about the song is that the beginning sounds like one song and the rest goes off in a totally different direction. Like there is not much of a progression in the first movement of the song. Then again, I think  I need to just give some time to listen to all their epics in order so I can better understand how this one sits in relation to the others. I did that with the rest of the album and it made me see just how "DT" this album is.

Other than the weird transition at the end, I think the other problem with this song is that the instrumental sections are just a bit too long. Like when you sit down and listen to them there's no particular note or section that's actually bad, but they take their time going where they want to go. Obviously in a 20 minute song the ideas are going to be more long form, but at least in theory the length should be because there are more ideas in a song, or ideas that need more development, rather than taking ideas that can be expressed in x time and expressing them in 1.5x the time.

Look at a song like TCOT. That song *moves*. Every idea is given exactly as much time as it needs and then onto the next one. Even the ambient solo is built around two primary melodic ideas that it explores quickly then moves on from. I like the new epic more overall, but I appreciate that aspect of The Count.

I think what I am having the most difficulty with is the ending of AVFTTOTW. It just seemed like they though, "Well, I guess we need to cap this  with something." Like, I felt the song could've stopped at even 17 minutes and it would've been great. On the other hand, i wish I could listen to this song with fresh ears. Like, having it be my first DT epic. I feel my opinion would change because it i easy to think "oh yes, here is that DT thing they do" and just write it off because it's been done so many times. I think the ending works, but I just wished it was a little more "epic." Then again, I might just be overthinking it.

I agree with your comment on TCOT. I think I miss the days when DT let their songs breathe. Like a lot of SDOIT. Those songs took their time and they were great for that. That is what I love about Octavarium. That song takes its time, but it pulls you in and the pay off is huge. This track, not so much. At least, not as much as I was hoping.

[erwinrafael]

Those would be my top (ACOS) and bottom (ITPOE) as well and I also like that they didn't do the typical Epic Ending.   I think the ending after "legacy" could have been better though.  Not because it didn't rise to a big epic guitar solo, just because the riff isn't that great.   I don't have a problem with the ending in general, I like it.

I think they are following the structure of the narrative. They finally descended the mountain and are now at the bottom, so the music after "legacy" is the music in the intro, albeit in a modified form.

So this is the one track that is making it sooooo hard to write a review for this album. I keep going between 80 and 85% as a score. I have listened to this song 8 times over now, and I think I am starting to understand it more. It is not their best epic, but it is certainly better than IT. Nothing will ever beat Octavarium though.

I think what I don't like about the song is that the beginning sounds like one song and the rest goes off in a totally different direction. Like there is not much of a progression in the first movement of the song. Then again, I think  I need to just give some time to listen to all their epics in order so I can better understand how this one sits in relation to the others. I did that with the rest of the album and it made me see just how "DT" this album is.

Other than the weird transition at the end, I think the other problem with this song is that the instrumental sections are just a bit too long. Like when you sit down and listen to them there's no particular note or section that's actually bad, but they take their time going where they want to go. Obviously in a 20 minute song the ideas are going to be more long form, but at least in theory the length should be because there are more ideas in a song, or ideas that need more development, rather than taking ideas that can be expressed in x time and expressing them in 1.5x the time.

Look at a song like TCOT. That song *moves*. Every idea is given exactly as much time as it needs and then onto the next one. Even the ambient solo is built around two primary melodic ideas that it explores quickly then moves on from. I like the new epic more overall, but I appreciate that aspect of The Count.

I think what I am having the most difficulty with is the ending of AVFTTOTW. It just seemed like they though, "Well, I guess we need to cap this  with something." Like, I felt the song could've stopped at even 17 minutes and it would've been great. On the other hand, i wish I could listen to this song with fresh ears. Like, having it be my first DT epic. I feel my opinion would change because it i easy to think "oh yes, here is that DT thing they do" and just write it off because it's been done so many times. I think the ending works, but I just wished it was a little more "epic." Then again, I might just be overthinking it.

I agree with your comment on TCOT. I think I miss the days when DT let their songs breathe. Like a lot of SDOIT. Those songs took their time and they were great for that. That is what I love about Octavarium. That song takes its time, but it pulls you in and the pay off is huge. This track, not so much. At least, not as much as I was hoping.

People complain that DT does not experiment with structure but when they do they get a lot of flak also. The way I see it, this song is structured to peak at the middle. The first part is the climb up the mountain which goes from guitar riff - intro with main theme - vocals - crazy instrumental. Then they reach the peak of the mountain with the cello playing the main theme, James now singing he will begin the descent, and John playing a solo as if he is on the top of the mountain. Then the third part is the descent which is the reverse of the first part, so crazy instrumental - vocals - ending with main theme - guitar riff.

It is a bold move on their part, making such a long song peak in the middle.

[KevShmev]

People complain that DT does not experiment with structure but when they do they get a lot of flak also. The way I see it, this song is structured to peak at the middle. The first part is the climb up the mountain which goes from guitar riff - intro with main theme - vocals - crazy instrumental. Then they reach the peak of the mountain with the cello playing the main theme, James now singing he will begin the descent, and John playing a solo as if he is on the top of the mountain. Then the third part is the descent which is the reverse of the first part, so crazy instrumental - vocals - ending with main theme - guitar riff.

It is a bold move on their part, making such a long song peak in the middle.

That can work extremely well when done right.   That is pretty much what Yes did with The Gates of Delirium, having the song peak in the middle, and then having the final section as a bit of a sprawling epilogue, and it is pure greatness in the case of the Yes song because it was executed flawlessly.  I cannot say the same for A View from the Top of the World, which feels like the band's execution didn't live up to their ambition.

[erwinrafael]

Am I counting this right? The base time sig of the instrumental in the first half is in 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4. Then the base time sig of the instrumental in the second half is also 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4 (phrased as two lines of 7/8)

[The Letter M]

Am I counting this right? The base time sig of the instrumental in the first half is in 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4. Then the base time sig of the instrumental in the second half is also 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4 (phrased as two lines of 7/8)

Are you talking about the beginning before the vocals come in?

If so, it's in 23/8, going into 24/8 or or two bars of 12/8.

-Marc.

[erwinrafael]

No the one that ends in the blast beat.

[Dedalus]

So this is the one track that is making it sooooo hard to write a review for this album. I keep going between 80 and 85% as a score. I have listened to this song 8 times over now, and I think I am starting to understand it more. It is not their best epic, but it is certainly better than IT. Nothing will ever beat Octavarium though.

I think what I don't like about the song is that the beginning sounds like one song and the rest goes off in a totally different direction. Like there is not much of a progression in the first movement of the song. Then again, I think  I need to just give some time to listen to all their epics in order so I can better understand how this one sits in relation to the others. I did that with the rest of the album and it made me see just how "DT" this album is.

Other than the weird transition at the end, I think the other problem with this song is that the instrumental sections are just a bit too long. Like when you sit down and listen to them there's no particular note or section that's actually bad, but they take their time going where they want to go. Obviously in a 20 minute song the ideas are going to be more long form, but at least in theory the length should be because there are more ideas in a song, or ideas that need more development, rather than taking ideas that can be expressed in x time and expressing them in 1.5x the time.

Look at a song like TCOT. That song *moves*. Every idea is given exactly as much time as it needs and then onto the next one. Even the ambient solo is built around two primary melodic ideas that it explores quickly then moves on from. I like the new epic more overall, but I appreciate that aspect of The Count.

Debatable. I think TCOT could be easily trimmed.

I remember there was some criticism about the ambient solo, including being labeled too long. And this at a time of less criticism with the band (if we compare to today).

By the way, with the exception of Wither, all songs are inflated on that album.

[Kyo]

Am I counting this right? The base time sig of the instrumental in the first half is in 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4. Then the base time sig of the instrumental in the second half is also 15/8, which goes in and out to 7/4 (phrased as two lines of 7/8)

It's almost entirely in 23/16 (as is all of the intro until it segues into JP's first lead - it's 24/16 from there on). The only exception is the 21->21->21->23 sequence at the end (the bit that JP ultimately plays that fast run over). The 5-5-5-8 subdivision of 23 is already introduced earlier, but for these bars of 21 it's modified to 5-5-5-6.

[erwinrafael]

Not that part, I was talking about the instrumental before the cello section with the blast beat in the end.

edit: yeah...so it's 12345612345612345612345. Got it. Hahaha

[Kyo]

We're talking about the same part.

[erwinrafael]

Yes, I was confused when you said intro before realizing that that was just an aside. Hahaha

[Trav86]

If someone else mentioned this I didn’t see it. In the Rapture of the Deep section I know lyrically that everyone is describing it as descending down the mountain. On the Blu-Ray, the video shows someone deep sea diving. Which makes sense with “darkness” and “returning to the womb” stuff. 

[cminor]

If someone else mentioned this I didn’t see it. In the Rapture of the Deep section I know lyrically that everyone is describing it as descending down the mountain. On the Blu-Ray, the video shows someone deep sea diving. Which makes sense with “darkness” and “returning to the womb” stuff.

Yeah, I also think that's an interesting interpretation. In the last episode of the Talking Into Infinity Podcast they talked to Wayne Joyner (who edited the Blu-Ray video footages) and he stated the underwater footage was JP's idea (at least that's how I got it).

[Trav86]

The title Rapture of the Deep, doesn’t really make sense with mountain climbing. But I’ve never climbed a mountain. So what do I know?

[lovethedrake]

Ok…. Just had another listen to the title track.   Wow… fantastic.  Talk about taking you on a journey.

Absolutely love it… will probably rank 3rd for the big epics for me just behind ACOS and SDOIT.

Really great stuff,  the album continues to rise the ranks.

Well done gentlemen!

[Freeze]

1.8VM
2.ACOS
3.SDOIT
4.TCOT
5.AVFTTOTW
6.ITPO
7.IT

[Trav86]

So, like I’ve said before, I don’t count Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one epic song. I find it hard to compare 40 minutes of shorter songs that connect together, with one 20 minute track. So for this I’m not going to count SDOIT. I know most people disagree with me, but that’s my interpretation. So as of right now this is how I would rank the epics.

A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
A View From the Top of the World
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies

[Ben_Jamin]

I view the song as someone who is not just climbing a mountain, but also going through the steps of preparing, taking on the challenge, and then reaching the top looking across the vast horizon of the world.

It starts with the person wanting to seek a new ambition and determined to take on the new challenge, even if the danger is real and they may fail. Just like a surfer seeks the crest of the biggest wave.

The next section is that person fighting his mentality causing him to doubt himself. But, they're lured by the madness, addicted to the pain to be up there among the so-called elite that have took on such a challenge. Taking chances, even though you may die, over and over again not giving up or accepting defeat.

Rapture of The Deep, I take to mean that moment when they actually do set out to take on the mountain. After all the talk about their ambitions, they set out and the music perfectly enhances that unknown fringe you are walking on. The music sets the emotion and tone for the person taking on the challenge as it's unsure whether they will come out of it alive, will they succeed or fail..."The beauty and the danger, and the yearning to explore always keeps me coming back for more." The guitar solo here at the end makes me think of that person reaching the bottom of the mountain, or the surfer seeing the waves heighten. When the drum lead comes in with the heavy riffs, it's the rock climber placing his hand on that first cornerstone, the surfer standing on their board as the wave grows in size. The trade-off solo's gives me a sense of them being the danger of the falling rocks, the gliding on the wave tunnel, the moment you feel the wind on the edge of the sky, knowing full on it could be your last moment, that is the beauty and the danger.

The Driving Force, is that moment when they do reach the heights of the challenge. The Pinnacle of the mountain, the crest of the biggest wave. That moment when one accomplished the challenge, is on top of the world, looking down upon it. Ending on the main theme of the song..."Self-belief will build a life of legacy." Which is to challenge the mountain, and break the barriers preventing you from achieving greatness.

I see the reprising intro as the next new challenge. 




So after my small quick analysis of the song, i'd rank it...

Octavarium
A View From The Top Of The World
In The Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
Illumination Theory

Now this doesn't mean I don't like the bottom songs. I enjoy all of these epics. I just prefer the messages and themes, and how they relate to the music itself of Octavarium more so than Illumination Theory.

And to me, the journey, the grand theme/message, and the relationship of the musical tones to the journey and theme are how I define an "Epic"....and there are many shorter length songs I would consider epic.

[Dream Team]

So, like I’ve said before, I don’t count Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence as one epic song. I find it hard to compare 40 minutes of shorter songs that connect together, with one 20 minute track. So for this I’m not going to count SDOIT. I know most people disagree with me, but that’s my interpretation. So as of right now this is how I would rank the epics.

A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
A View From the Top of the World
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies

That’s almost exactly what how I would rank them, I’m just not exactly sure of the order of 3,4,5.

[gzarruk]

I've been super busy these last couple weeks, so I really haven't sat down to write my thoughts on the album/the songs yet (LOVE IT, though), but just wanted to post this about the title track: Their best epic in a long long long time

It just seems to fly by and doesn't feel at all like listening to a 20 min song. I recently listened to ACOS again and wow does it drag a lot, I kept wanting it to end already and I still had another 10 minutes to go