*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[hefdaddy42]

A listener need not understand in order to get enjoyment out of the work, and if they don't get enjoyment out of the work, then it is what it is.   

I agree wholeheartedly.

Words fail here  because we're trying to describe something undescribable.   But what I mean isn't "groove" in the same sense of "easy" or "simple"; this isn't that shuffle with brushes you hear at jazz shows.   I mean it in the sense of not being distracting.  Yeah, there are moments where it's "odd", but there was a cohesiveness to it all that allowed the listener to take from it what they could/wanted, whether it's that rhythm, a vocal melody, a tone, whatever.   It's not DT, but "Turn It On Again" by Genesis is a fantastic example of this; it's NOT 4/4, it's 13/8* and it turns around every two bars, but it feels RIGHT.  It "grooves".  It's not simple; the ear knows something isn't adding up, but it still makes sense. 

OK, I'm with you.

I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake.   "Hey let's count to 27!".   "Why?"  "Because we can!"

But here is where we disagree.  I don't hear any of that on this album.  At least, no more than on most of their other albums.

[dparrott]

I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH!  Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).  And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in.  A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands. 

[dparrott]

but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake.   "Hey let's count to 27!".   "Why?"  "Because we can!"

Yea that's how I feel too, that's why I questioned it.  Usually there's more of a mix of more conventional time signatures. 

[goo-goo]

I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH!  Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).  And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in.  A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.

And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.

[cramx3]

Needing to listen many times to "get it" is what makes it good. What gives the music longevity.

Amen. I think this should be understood better.

I have always felt that prog music should make you wait. It demands listening intently to understand and requires respect for where it goes. Perfect examples are Pink Floyd's Echoes, Tool's Fear Inoculum, and (in my opinion) Dream Theater's SDOIT. Also IQ's The Road Of Bones

"People just don't have the time for music anymore" and I would add TA to your list.

[hefdaddy42]

Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).   

Not sure that TDOE is the best example.

[Stadler]

I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake.   "Hey let's count to 27!".   "Why?"  "Because we can!"

But here is where we disagree.  I don't hear any of that on this album.  At least, no more than on most of their other albums.

See, this is a matter of taste now.  I've written about this.  I have deep respect for Mangini as a talent; he can do things physically that many (most?) others can't.  There are songs he's played on that I really enjoy.  But I don't connect with a lot of his playing in DT, and particularly on this record (we're talking about this record, but I'm not necessarily limiting my comments to this record).   I made a joke before but I'm not really joking: there are 847 brazillian bass drum hits on this record.  I was listening to the music and getting distracted literally counting the bass drum hits.   For all the historical DT wankery it was always coming from a place of classic rock; the ethos was always Rush, Floyd, Maiden, Zeppelin, Metallica.  I don't get that feel from this record.  I thought Distance Over Time skirted that issue well enough; the melodies and playing there seemed to over come the downsides; I think the scales have tipped a bit here.

[Elite]

I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH!  Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).  And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in.  A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.

And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.

And yet there are (prog) bands out there that able to fit interesting vocal lines over complex rhythmic parts, so it’s not really undoable.

[Stadler]

I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH!  Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).  And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in.  A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.

And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.

That was always the beauty of DT:  for no matter how wild the instrumental nonsense going on, there always seemed to be a thread - sometimes the vocals, sometimes the guitar, sometimes the keys - that tied it all together and made it come together.  "Voices" is a great example of that.   Much of SFAM is that, as well as Six Degrees. 

[hefdaddy42]

I accept that it's me, and what I'm in tune with, but the new album is almost uncomfortable at times because it seems almost for "odd" for odd's sake.   "Hey let's count to 27!".   "Why?"  "Because we can!"

But here is where we disagree.  I don't hear any of that on this album.  At least, no more than on most of their other albums.

See, this is a matter of taste now.  I've written about this.  I have deep respect for Mangini as a talent; he can do things physically that many (most?) others can't.  There are songs he's played on that I really enjoy.  But I don't connect with a lot of his playing in DT, and particularly on this record (we're talking about this record, but I'm not necessarily limiting my comments to this record).   I made a joke before but I'm not really joking: there are 847 brazillian bass drum hits on this record.  I was listening to the music and getting distracted literally counting the bass drum hits.   For all the historical DT wankery it was always coming from a place of classic rock; the ethos was always Rush, Floyd, Maiden, Zeppelin, Metallica.  I don't get that feel from this record.  I thought Distance Over Time skirted that issue well enough; the melodies and playing there seemed to over come the downsides; I think the scales have tipped a bit here.

Well, again, you've lost me.  I don't hear what you're hearing.

[goo-goo]

And yet there are (prog) bands out there that able to fit interesting vocal lines over complex rhythmic parts, so it’s not really undoable.

Absolutely. So in my opinion, this is where it View feels a bit underwhelming on the melody department (vocally speaking). This is my only negative comment about the album. The music does feel fresh, music pushing the boundaries a bit more, the sound of the record is gorgeous. For me, the star of this album is Myung. Check out those bass lines and sound. Stunning playing by JM.

[Trav86]

I’m still loving this album. Oh wait…I meant to put that in the “controversial opinions” thread. Oops!

[Stadler]

I’m still loving this album. Oh wait…I meant to put that in the “controversial opinions” thread. Oops!

Ha! Trust me, that's not the controversial opinion. 

[Peace and Love]

Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.

[Elite]

13/27 isn’t a proper time signature anyway

[Kotowboy]

True. You cant have the denominator an odd number.

[Elite]

True. You cant have the denominator an odd number.

Well, actually hypothetically and theoretically you can and you'll even see them pop up, albeit very rarely.
Even something silly like 13/27 is possible from a theoretical standpoint.

[geeeemo]

Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.

I think it feels like 4/4 because I can bang my head to the music

[DoctorAction]

I've not been back to the new record in a week or so. Just not drawn to it at the moment.

[erwinrafael]

I'm not complaining about the complexity, yea that's one reason why we love them, but on this album it's SO MUCH!  Past albums have mixed complex beats and simple beats (measures?), even doing so in the same song (TDOE).  And I'd rather have more complex than less in general, but it's just a lot to take in.  A whole album of songs like Monster would get old after a while and would sound like other bands.

And this might be why I feel the vocal melodies feel awkward, forced, or not fully developed. The music is too complex this time around that the melodies were hard to fit in the music. At least that is my impression. Even the songs written by James, even though they are very melodic in this album, still don't feel melodic like At Wit End's, etc.

And yet there are (prog) bands out there that able to fit interesting vocal lines over complex rhythmic parts, so it’s not really undoable.

I heard one recently. It's by the band Dream Theater with a song titled Answering The Call. It's not 4/4 but I kept dancing and singing to it while washing the dishes.

[evilasiojr]

I've not been back to the new record in a week or so. Just not drawn to it at the moment.

I've been quite the opposite, just can't listen to anything else, can't get sick of it and every listen I like it more. Awaken the Master and A View are the tracks that have grown the most on me!!

[JediKnight1969]

DT always balanced melody and virtuosity perfectly. This is not the case.  I think this record has more instrumental complexity in order to compensate the lack of vocal variety. And I fully understand that. James cannot sing in his old full range (it's just a matter of age). But complexity, despite it's attractive, can be a two blade knife. If you cross a little line you'll become tedious. Maybe it's a grower like SC, but I fear it will be remembered as BC&SL, IMHO.

[erwinrafael]

Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.

Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?

The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.

Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.

[ReaPsTA]

I get what Stadler's saying even if I don't know if I completely agree.

The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.

Answering the Call has some shifting time signature business but it never feels complicated or unintuitive.

The title track I have mixed opinions on. The shifting time signatures in the "All my natural instincts are begging me to stop" verse are perfect. It fits the story that the groove always keeps you just off center. But a lot of the sections are built on odd number over eight grooves that are interesting, and do make the song feel darker, but they're really hard to feel the groove for. Does that make the song worse or do I need to get better at listening to music? The mind wanders.

[DoctorAction]

I've not been back to the new record in a week or so. Just not drawn to it at the moment.

I've been quite the opposite, just can't listen to anything else, can't get sick of it and every listen I like it more. Awaken the Master and A View are the tracks that have grown the most on me!!

Good to hear. It sounds like most folks are loving it so I'm hoping it's just a timing and mood thing for me and I'll be back to it with full enthusiasm at another point in time.

[erwinrafael]

The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.

To get it, I actually sang it.

TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM

 

[Elite]

The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.

To get it, I actually sang it.

TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM

 

With every 'PAM' actually being three notes.

[erwinrafael]

Mike Mangini posted a Youtube video promoting a 2-hour Zoom class for "A View From The Top Of The World" for cheap 10.49USD, with an option for 19.99USD upgrade for VIP if you want to have your video on and ask Mike questions face-to-face instead of just a chat function.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6_KPa_wz6o

Then a poster on the Youtube channel ruined the mood:

Dude, don't get me wrong, I'll say it with all due respect but, I understand that times aren't easy for anyone, but do the classes for free!! Just share it with the world, here!! I understand that you're doing this because of the interaction with students! You're a teacher by trade, that's perfectly understandable. But share some drumming from the new album and don't just do it for the exclusivity of paying viewers!! That is killing the vibe!!!

Portnoy never did it for the money... 😔

Thank you so much.

The nerve of some people. Mike is not doing a drum cam playthrough. He is teaching a two-hour lesson.

[Stadler]

Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.

AND

[/quote]

Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.

Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?

The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.

Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.

Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about, short of an actual measure that is literally in 13/27 time.  Look, if some of you can't deal with a little bit of facetiousness  - ironically as a sign of respect for your position, more or less, since I'm not resorting to sarcasm and the like - then maybe we ought not to have this conversation.   It's how I feel. It's how I'm hearing the music.  If you don't, then more power to you; I am truly and sincerely grateful that you have music you can connect to.  Music is all about connection for me - 100% - and so for you to have that, is a joy.   I have it too - Senjutsu, Innocence and Danger - and that's what it's all about at the end of the day.

This isn't a contest, it's not a test of wills.  I'm not wrong simply because you disagree (and we're not "right" if we do).  I'm looking for a balance to the complexity and I'm not hearing it; pointing to one chorus in a 71 minute album doesn't change that.
   

13/27 isn’t a proper time signature anyway

Elite, you're not helping.    It was simply two numbers that don't divide easily into each other to make a point.       I don't even know that it's literally a matter of time signatures; I love music with complicated rhythms (I'm a King Crimson fan); what I'm more talking about is the expression of those complex rhythms.  One can play those, one can weave those into the music, without it being jarring or intrusive.  I'm trying to be respectful and polite to Mike since he's a monster player, no doubt.  If I was to be more blunt, it wouldn't help the conversation.

[Stadler]

The intro of Awaken the Master just doesn't do it for me. It's kind of fun. I'm sure it's really hard to play. I respect it. Can't jam to it.

To get it, I actually sang it.

TurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMTurututuPAMPAMPAMPAMPAM

 

With every 'PAM' actually being three notes.

I love the very intro - the first 0:20 seconds; the riff is awesome, and I love what sound like cymbals accenting the hits.  Love it.  Then at 0:26 or so, it falls back into the same routine:  87 bass drum hits tracking the rhythm.  That's what I'm talking about.  The keyboard part saves it a bit - the legato lines over the complicated rhythm, giving it some balance - but it seems to be the pattern of the album. Overplay the complexity until it's distracting TO ME.

Instrumentally, the first couple minutes of AtM is one of my favorite parts of the record, to be honest.  The part at about 1:45 is one of the few times Mangini DOESN'T completely overplay the crap out of his part.

[DoctorAction]

Music is all about connection for me - 100% - and so for you to have that, is a joy.   I have it too - Senjutsu, Innocence and Danger - and that's what it's all about at the end of the day.

This isn't a contest, it's not a test of wills.  I'm not wrong simply because you disagree (and we're not "right" if we do).  I'm looking for a balance to the complexity and I'm not hearing it; pointing to one chorus in a 71 minute album doesn't change that.

Love this.

[Peace and Love]

Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.

AND

Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.

Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?

The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.

Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.

Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about
[/quote]

No, you have not. You have repeatedly said MM's drumming style makes a 4/4 part sound complex - that's the claim. Forget the 13 or 17 or whatever. Can you point out one specific part over the last 5 albums where is playing in 4/4 but making it sound overly complex. If this is so characteristic of his style you should be able to find at least one example without writing hundreds of words going around and around in circles.

[erwinrafael]

Well, I can point to Mangini making a 23/16 rhythm sound even more complicated than it already is.  Hello, AVFTTOTW intro! Love you.

[Awaken]

Another entire page of commentary, and yet nobody has provided a SINGLE example of MM's drumming making 4/4 sound like 13/27. Which just proves what an absurd statement that is.

AND

Some commenter: This album does not have simple rhythms. It is complex for complexity's sake.

Awaken The Master: Am I a joke to you?

The Alien: I guess my chorus does not count.

Sleeping Giant: I know I should not have played the whole 2nd verse and chorus in 4/4. They would not even notice.

Well, no, you haven't gotten the examples that YOU want. I HAVE given examples of what I'm talking about

No, you have not. You have repeatedly said MM's drumming style makes a 4/4 part sound complex - that's the claim. Forget the 13 or 17 or whatever. Can you point out one specific part over the last 5 albums where is playing in 4/4 but making it sound overly complex. If this is so characteristic of his style you should be able to find at least one example without writing hundreds of words going around and around in circles.
[/quote]

I'm wondering what is the point of continuing this?  If people enjoy the record, great.  If they don't enjoy the record, great.
 There's always a dividing line with DTs fanbase, it's been happening since Awake and it's never going to change. 

What MM can do, technically, has opened up avenues for the band that they obviously want to keep exploring.  It sounds great to my ears - whether someone else enjoys it is not my concern. 

Maybe I'm just old, I've never seen discussions like this end with 'Hey you know what, I know exactly what you mean now and I totally agree with you'. 

[Elite]

I think alternating measure of 12/8 and 11/8 are more obvious for that intro than calling it 23/16, but that may be me.