*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[dparrott]

I finished listening to it last night.  I love Monster and Transcending Time is cool, but except for a few moments here and there, it's pretty standard DT by-the-book for me.  Not that it's bad, but it's not much different than what I've heard before.  Kind of a let down.

Did they deliberately make most of these songs crazy and complex?  The only song that I remember having a straight beat is Monster.  I'm not as much of a prog head as y'all, but with around 40 minutes of heavy off-time drums and riffs, nothing much stands out to me.  Even TOT had more steady, simpler beats.

This is why I love Astonishing, because it's definitely NOT by-the-book DT.

[Elite]

IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...

This album is definitely not JP's shining hour, but that's fine with me.
I'm with you, mostly, but most importantly on the circuclar riffs underneath the solo sections, but I already spent a post in this thread about that and that one didn't get any replies I think, so I'll leave it at this

[Phoenix87x]

I finished listening to it last night.  I love Monster and Transcending Time is cool, but except for a few moments here and there, it's pretty standard DT by-the-book for me. 

Agreed.

I've listened to it a few times, but nothing is really grabbing me like previous works of theirs. The new album feels like a lot of the same old same old, but not as rich or as inspired. Oh well, it is what it is. I'm just gonna stick to listening to their other albums.

[Kyo]

If you really want to be picky, you could argue that in Sleeping Giant he is also playing a voice of the chords, occasionally..and in IM and ATC he is playing 5th chords and not single notes...
But I am sure you get it...he is very lazy in all the arrangements there, that's quite clear.
No harmony, no melodic support, no counterpoint...just basic chugga-chugga*!

Add this to the fact that the keys are low (and all the harmony is left to them!) and the bass drum is doubling most of the chuggas...

IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...

Just my opinion of course, but the "chuggas" are a fact...

First of all, you had "chuggas" in the Take the Time intro or the Metropolis verse, you had them in The Mirror and Scarred. They're all over the classic material. Something like the Learning to Live verse isn't really all that different from what he does in Sleeping Giant - some rhythm with the occasional move to the chords thrown in. Caught in a Web had a bit of a riff coupled with a lot of chugging, like the first verse of The Alien has. So in general, that's just JP being JP. It's what defines DT's sound to a significant degree.

Then it's really arrogant and silly to call him "very lazy". The silliness becomes obvious when you realize that for all these songs except Answering the Call, he's playing something completely different for the other verse. If he was just lazy, why did he even bother to think of other things to play there instead of just repeating himself? Because it's not laziness, it's a very simple artistic choice. Clearly, JP wanted the basic rhythm there to be more emphasized and heavier than it would be if you only had bass and drums playing it. It's a perfectly valid arrangement choice.

And then you basically ignore the rest that is going on, because in most cases, the guitar part isn't the main attraction and it's not even the 2nd most important thing (that's Jordan's role - and I disagree that the keys are too quiet). And so you often have Jordan doing what you want JP to be doing - providing melody support or counterpoint. And that's really enough - the focus is meant to be on the vocals, you have odd rhythm subdivisions underneath (The Alien is in 17, Answering the Call in 13, Invisible Monster in 7, Sleeping Giant in 9, Awaken the Master has groupings of 5 against 4/4...) and Jordan is already embellishing the harmonies with additional lines - there is barely any room for the guitar to be doing more without cluttering things up.

And then there's the harmonic dimension. As you said, JP is adding chord notes to his part in SG under the vocals, so it's more than just mere "chugga chugga", it is in fact some harmonic support (and of course it's an interesting pattern in 9 to start with and it comes with an added run as a tag). But the guitar remaining on the same note is also not necessarily a sign of laziness but can also be a deliberate compositional tool - it provides a pedal point which gives the chords on top their character. And this is indeed what happens here in most cases. In fact, I find the harmonic work Jordan adds on top of these sections in Awaken the Master and View (the intro) very creative and greatly successful. And the impact of having a pedal point is even emphasized further when you have JP actually changing the notes he's playing throughout the first verse of Awaken the Master, showing very clearly how different the section comes across when he *does* move away from the pedal tone and follows the chords instead. And again, this type of "less is more" restraint is clearly a deliberate choice so you can even have the feel of advancement when he does change things up harmonically later.

So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".

[cramx3]

I've had a bunch of listens (and am listening again now) and it sucks to say this, but I think this is the first DT release since I've been a fan that I don't know if this will crack my top 5 albums of the year for me.  Of course not being in the top 5 doesn't mean it's bad, I do like it.  It's just not blowing me away like every other DT release has in the past.  Some of that could just be because of time and how much I've listened to DT, but I can't help but think a lot of it has to do because there are no soaring vocal melodies and no musical moments that have me hitting rewind either.  Not a single moment sticks in my head after listening to the album, it's almost all just a blur to me as the songs hardly even standout amongst themselves.  Only Invisible Monster has a vocal melody that stands out and it happens to be on the most basic song on the album (and I feel like I enjoy this one more than what I've read about it here).  That just has never been the case for me.  This may be a very minority opinion, but as of now, I liked TA a lot more than A View.

[dparrott]

DT12 has more standout tracks than this.

[Architeuthis]

Great post above Kyo!  Great explanation and I agree on all counts.  In fact that may be my favorite post in this entire thread.. 

[The Letter M]

*snip*

So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".

I'd say this also applies to the misunderstanding of the album's, and the band's growing use of, complex rhythms, changing meters and tempos, and just the over-all experimentation with time. I noticed it a tiny bit on ADTOE and DT12, but it really came to the fore with DOT, and now it's really present in AVFTTOTW. There's a lot of multi-meter and mixed-meter playing going on here, most likely due to Mike's limb-independent drumming skills. He matches the other three instruments so well rhythmically that when the band is locked in to something, they're all really locked in together now, though that isn't to say Portnoy didn't do some of this with the band, I just think with Mangini, they've been able to explore it a lot more now. Parts of "Pale Blue Dot" and "A View From The Top Of The World" had me scratching my head upon first listens, and some of the songs on the new album still have me struggling to count them out!

I guess if you're a musician and/or composer, you have an easier time picking these things out and thus, appreciating them more. If you're not, I could see how it might not mean that much, especially if you just want solid grooves and metal riffs, but DT want to obviously explore this complex stuff a lot more and I don't think they'll stop or slow down. As a drummer myself, I am simultaneously amazed and annoyed by things that Mangini does with DT, in that they are very technical and jaw-dropping at times, even to the point of laughing in disbelief (first time I heard the slow-down break in the middle of "Pale Blue Dot", my jaw was agape and I couldn't help but rewind it and laugh a few times), but at the same time, I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).

Either way, I can understand why some folks might not grasp some of the things the band does if they're not musically inclined, and then feel like the songs sound too busy or same-y if they can't spot the differences, musically speaking, and that's fine, but to say they're "lazy" or or uninspired just feels wrong to me, considering how much their musical horizons have been broadened over the years.

-Marc.

[Kyo]

Did they deliberately make most of these songs crazy and complex?

Yes, that's what makes them interesting to listen to. 

The only song that I remember having a straight beat is Monster. 

But Invisible Monster has one verse in 7/8 and the other in 9/8. 

A large chunk of the title track is actually in 4/4 - I think just about everything that has a solo or vocals on top.

[Kyo]

For example: systematically complaining about how Dream Theater has become repetitive and stagnant, but not having any complaints about it in the recent work of artists like Neal Morse (which is anything but innovative).
I didn't invent this example, but I keep watching around here. I can give the names, but I certainly won't.

For me it is a very clear example of being more lenient with certain artists/works and more rigorous with others.

Yes, and it becomes obvious how ridiculous the standards that DT are measured against are when you imagine what the same approach would mean for other artists: "There he goes again, that Ben Folds - another verse with piano and vocals! So uninspired and lazy!"

[lovethedrake]

Had a 90 minute drive to the golf course today so I listened to the full album twice, there and back.

I do actually love the album despite some of my previous complaints and it continues to grow on me.  It is very rhythmic although I can’t understand any of the technical jargon that some are posting.    Personally, I don’t really hear them going for anything entirely new, but I do think they compiled an album of 7 great tracks.  I truly like all of them.

I still hate the solo breakdown in TT and still think some of the back and forth soloing gets old but it’s really a very solid album all the way through.   

After listening to it twice  I put on six degrees for a little which I love dearly and one thing I definitely think would help eliminate some of the “sameness” problem people have is turning Jordan up in the mix.   He sounds so awesome and bright on Glass Prison for example. 

Anyways, the album isn’t perfect but it’s a pretty great release.    My three wishes for future releases if the band were to read the board:

1.  Turn Jordan up! 

2.  More acoustic/piano

3.  James please sing just like the “all my natural instincts” section for the whole album.  You sound great all over a View but man you sound amazing there.

[Dublagent66]

I'm digesting this one slowly.  Haven't heard anything that I don't like so far, even though I like some parts better than others.

DT12 has more standout tracks than this.

Sorry, but    That could be considered a post for the controversial thread.  Don't think a lot of folks would agree with you there. 

[Kram]

I still hate the solo breakdown in TT and still think some of the back and forth soloing gets old

These would be my two only criticisms on an otherwise 8.5-9 out of 10 album.  The back and forth shredding solos (although a trademark of DT) are getting a little tired IMO.  And the shredding Petrucci solo in TT, is out of place. That's one spot, where maybe an outside producer, would have told him to tone it down a notch or two, to better fit the song.

[erwinrafael]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

[svisser]

*snip*

So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".

I guess if you're a musician and/or composer, you have an easier time picking these things out and thus, appreciating them more. If you're not, I could see how it might not mean that much, especially if you just want solid grooves and metal riffs, but DT want to obviously explore this complex stuff a lot more and I don't think they'll stop or slow down. As a drummer myself, I am simultaneously amazed and annoyed by things that Mangini does with DT, in that they are very technical and jaw-dropping at times, even to the point of laughing in disbelief (first time I heard the slow-down break in the middle of "Pale Blue Dot", my jaw was agape and I couldn't help but rewind it and laugh a few times), but at the same time, I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).


-Marc.

My Dad and I were talking about something similar to this the other night. What needs to be pointed out is that MM is to MP what Peart is to Bonham. MM brings such a different flavour to the band, and it has allowed for some expansion of what the musical minds are capable of in this band now. I think there was even an early interview where the band was talking about how they could do things with MM that they could not do with MP. Not a bad thing, it is just different.

On the other hand, it can get quite tiring at points. As much as he is a very musical player, the level that he expresses that at can get a bit, well, boring at times. Perfect example is the famous MM solo with Steve Vai. Killer solo, but it gets a bit boring for me.

[svisser]

If you really want to be picky, you could argue that in Sleeping Giant he is also playing a voice of the chords, occasionally..and in IM and ATC he is playing 5th chords and not single notes...
But I am sure you get it...he is very lazy in all the arrangements there, that's quite clear.
No harmony, no melodic support, no counterpoint...just basic chugga-chugga*!

Add this to the fact that the keys are low (and all the harmony is left to them!) and the bass drum is doubling most of the chuggas...

IMHO it's the worst JP ever heard, speaking about the "background" work...

Just my opinion of course, but the "chuggas" are a fact...

First of all, you had "chuggas" in the Take the Time intro or the Metropolis verse, you had them in The Mirror and Scarred. They're all over the classic material. Something like the Learning to Live verse isn't really all that different from what he does in Sleeping Giant - some rhythm with the occasional move to the chords thrown in. Caught in a Web had a bit of a riff coupled with a lot of chugging, like the first verse of The Alien has. So in general, that's just JP being JP. It's what defines DT's sound to a significant degree.

Then it's really arrogant and silly to call him "very lazy". The silliness becomes obvious when you realize that for all these songs except Answering the Call, he's playing something completely different for the other verse. If he was just lazy, why did he even bother to think of other things to play there instead of just repeating himself? Because it's not laziness, it's a very simple artistic choice. Clearly, JP wanted the basic rhythm there to be more emphasized and heavier than it would be if you only had bass and drums playing it. It's a perfectly valid arrangement choice.

And then you basically ignore the rest that is going on, because in most cases, the guitar part isn't the main attraction and it's not even the 2nd most important thing (that's Jordan's role - and I disagree that the keys are too quiet). And so you often have Jordan doing what you want JP to be doing - providing melody support or counterpoint. And that's really enough - the focus is meant to be on the vocals, you have odd rhythm subdivisions underneath (The Alien is in 17, Answering the Call in 13, Invisible Monster in 7, Sleeping Giant in 9, Awaken the Master has groupings of 5 against 4/4...) and Jordan is already embellishing the harmonies with additional lines - there is barely any room for the guitar to be doing more without cluttering things up.

And then there's the harmonic dimension. As you said, JP is adding chord notes to his part in SG under the vocals, so it's more than just mere "chugga chugga", it is in fact some harmonic support (and of course it's an interesting pattern in 9 to start with and it comes with an added run as a tag). But the guitar remaining on the same note is also not necessarily a sign of laziness but can also be a deliberate compositional tool - it provides a pedal point which gives the chords on top their character. And this is indeed what happens here in most cases. In fact, I find the harmonic work Jordan adds on top of these sections in Awaken the Master and View (the intro) very creative and greatly successful. And the impact of having a pedal point is even emphasized further when you have JP actually changing the notes he's playing throughout the first verse of Awaken the Master, showing very clearly how different the section comes across when he *does* move away from the pedal tone and follows the chords instead. And again, this type of "less is more" restraint is clearly a deliberate choice so you can even have the feel of advancement when he does change things up harmonically later.

So I'd say what's actually lazy is this context-free generalizing and denigrating of perfectly valid, clearly carefully considered and both rhythmically and harmonically varied backing parts as somehow uniform "chuggas".

I sometimes want to just ask people: Do you think the way they write now is boring, or do you think you are just bored with how they actually have always done it?

Like, so many motifs on the new album and the previous are found on albums all the back to WDADU.  After the first listen of this album I actually went back through their discography and pinpointed specific times I heard the new album in different ways. You touched on a few of them as well.

[Trav86]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Exactly.

[Trav86]

Awaken the Master and Sleeping Giant are growing on me more. I liked them from the start but they didn’t seem to hit me as hard as they did with other folks. I’m coming around more now.

[wolfking]

Octavarium is the first album of the band that I did not buy and to this day, I rarely have the urge to listen to the full album. The only songs I keep coming back to are The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack, and These Walls (this one I truly love). For me, it is not Dream Theater trying to expand their horizong but rather Dream Theater trying to be what they are not. If I want to hear DT trying to expand their horizons, that is SDOIT disc 1 for me.

People keep on harping on how DT was more adventurous from 1992 to 2005, but how much of their change in directions were them being directed by outside parties to do so? Awake was them pressured to match their IaW success while being asked to go towards the early 90s dark sound (which fortunately for me resulted to one of my fave albums). FII was them being pressured to go more pop. And when DT decided to play what they actually want to pay, they gave us SFAM which is a welcome return to classic DT.

The ADTOE - AVFTTOTW run may indeed offer less variation in terms of style (with the exception of The Astonishing) but I tend to look at it in view of what is happening to the band. ADTOE is them trying to recapture that classic DT sound after they went towards a very metal direction after transferring to Roadrunner. DT12, to my ears, is the band trying to escape from the crutch of virtuosity and wank that they have been in since Train of Thought, focusing on writing good songs first. After the interlude of TA which they passionately loved but a lot of the fandom vocally did not appreciate, Distance Over Time was them becoming more successful with what they tried to do in DT12. Then AVFTTOTW is them bringing back again the virtuosity. That is how I appreciate the Mangini years so far, viewing them in terms of the journey of the band.

In my own life, I rarely yearn for the good old days. That is just a recipe for extreme dissatisfaction. I appreciate life and the things I love in terms of NOW.

I have a different take on it and I’ll probably get flack for it.  I love the band and really enjoy the new album. However, I think Dream Theater can make this album in their sleep.  There is no innovation or attempt to try and create anything relevant or interesting.  It’s just them doing what they know and doing it reasonably well.   

The solo breakdowns are incredibly lazy… gone are the days of instrumental musical passages that take you on a journey.

They are my favorite band so them making a “stock” Dream Theater album is still super enjoyable to me but It doesn’t sound like they had anything to say in this album creatively.  Either they are out of ideas or they are just going through the motions.  I still love the album though.

I agree with all of this mate, except the liking the album part.

[wolfking]

DT12 has more standout tracks than this.

Absolutely, a lot more.  DT12 is so much better than this new album in every way.

[wolfking]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Totally different situation.

[cramx3]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Exactly.

I loved it in that song and I live it in this song personally

Awaken the Master and Sleeping Giant are growing on me more. I liked them from the start but they didn’t seem to hit me as hard as they did with other folks. I’m coming around more now.

Sleeping the Giant is definitely growing on me.  That was one of the more "different" tracks that needs some digesting.  I'm not sure it'll land as my favorite or near my favorite on the album, but I'm enjoying it way more than I did on first listen. 

DT12 has more standout tracks than this.

Absolutely, a lot more.  DT12 is so much better than this new album in every way.

I think DT12 did have more standout tracks, but I'm not sure the album as a whole is better.  For as much crap as the DT singles often get, The Enemy Inside has a better chorus than any song on A View IMO.

[darkshade]

I think Octavarium is brilliant, I've loved it since the day it came out. I was also a big fan of Train of Thought, and I thought 8vm was the perfect follow up to ToT, which I thought was a perfect follow up to SDoIT, which I thought was a perfect follow up to Scenes. I used to skip I Walk Beside You back in the day, but I've grown to like it. Title track is one of their greatest pieces and I always loved how the album was like a lead up to the final track. I agree there were some influences felt maybe a little too obviously in a few moments, but I thought they did cool things with those sounds. I thought the songs themselves were pretty great, with mature writing, diverse styles, a cool concept; both in-album and as the finale to the meta-album that started on SFAM, and I like how the tracks have the in-between bits and it adds a type of aura to the album that is non-existent in their other albums. To me they were a band that could pretty much do no wrong at that point in time.

[erwinrafael]

Playing Answering The Call while having breakfast. In a few days I think this will be a Top 2 in this album for me. My love for this is turning out to be like my love for These Walls.

I think he overplays on some stuff, like the first half of the first verse of "Transcending Time" (which feels a bit too busy just because he can, since his hand-speed is so fast).


-Marc.

My personal take on that part is that Mike played the hihats that way not just "because he can." He was setting up a contrast to the second half of the verse where he will play the hi hats and the snare slowly.

[KevShmev]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

[TAC]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

[cramx3]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

I can see why people think it's too much or over playing, but I love it regardless.  It's honestly one of the best parts of the Budokan concert for me.  I think it's cool how the original song doesn't have that, but the live version does.

[wolfking]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago.  I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it.  It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one.  As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.

[sylentman]

Contrary to some recent opinions here, i do think basically every track has moments that have sticked in my head at one point in time, and i look forward to hearing again and again. Guess could be a matter of personal taste or maybe those who are not appreciating it could be getting tired of the band or perhaps where expecting something different.
Besides the IM moments i already mentioned in my previous post here, other examples of some memorable moments for me:
-TA: “i am the alien…” vocals at the end and the guitar ending since 8:15.
-ATC: many of guitar + keyboard rhythm, for example section from 0:11 to 0:43 that is heard similarly through song, also the vocals on the chorus.
-SG: chorus vocals specially the ones at 5:16 and after the solos section at 8:27. Guitar intro cool as well.
-TT: many parts, but lets say part after piano kicks in towards end at 4:54 till song finishes…beautiful!
-ATM: that intro, and one of my fav moments when the piano kicks in at 1:37…if that isn’t memorable or doesn’t stick in your head…then not your type of music
-AVFTTOTW: again the intro and when lead guitar kicks in at 2:41, vocal chorus on first half “see a view from the top of the world….”

And, at least myself liking this more than many other of their albums, but we always have to wait how this ages…for now I see potential for AVFTTOTW to remain top 5 album for me.

[TAC]

I think this is the first DT release since I've been a fan that I don't know if this will crack my top 5 albums of the year for me.  Of course not being in the top 5 doesn't mean it's bad, I do like it. 

It's been a strong year. There's some stiff competition, your issues with the album not withstanding.

[erwinrafael]

I think this is the first DT release since I've been a fan that I don't know if this will crack my top 5 albums of the year for me.  Of course not being in the top 5 doesn't mean it's bad, I do like it. 

It's been a strong year. There's some stiff competition, your issues with the album not withstanding.

The only competition for me so far is Frost! 's Day and Age. That is one hell of an album.

[JPX]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

Hollow Years solo at Budokan was all about the last phrase he plays when James says "Mr. John Petrucci". To me that simple line not only sums up JP but DT at their most melodic. The shredding doesn't bother me but I've 100% teared up at that line when I was in the right emotional state.

[Kram]

But people loved it in Hollow Years Budokan.

Some did, but some did not.  I have always disliked his shredding in that live solo.  I think that live version is otherwise really good, but that bit of shredding he throws in there reeks of "hey, this song is kinda mellow, so let me remind y'all that I can shred."  JP is still one of my favorite guitarists ever, but there are times I wish he would tone it down a little.

I think that solo is perfect.

Yeah, we had this discussion not long ago.  I personally can see what people mean with the shred but I love it.  It's live don't forget and you can really see JP in that moment on this one.  As a guitarist, sometimes when you feel it, you just want to rip in.

I think that's the difference.  Live, feeling it, I agree - let it rip.  But for the studio recording of TT, IMO it's a bit much.

[erwinrafael]

Since the chances that I will see them ever again is pretty much nil now because of this pandemic and the age of the band, the live and studio differences don't matter to me now.

[TAC]

I think the Transcending Time solo is amazing and perfect the way it is.