*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[wolfking]

I don't have perfect pitch or anything but some thing about the guitar parts on the last albums has struck me as very familiar (despite the fact that I am very fond of most of the band's recent output). I was flipping through recent songs just now with my JP12-7 and John is relying a LOT these days on those low open string tonalities and syncopated open A/E/B lines. As a guitarist, I know the appeal of E on a 6 string guitar or B on a 7. It affords a lot of idiosyncratic benefits. Even if you tune the guitar to a different key, a lot of those open 5th, 6th, 7th string riffs can end up sounding similar. JP is hanging out a LOT down there and I wonder if that is contributing to some of the feeling of repetition some fans are experiencing with DT's music lately.

This is a great post.

[Obsidian Pancake]

Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.

So true. There's an account of when producer Bob Rock started working with Metallica on Metallica, where he realizes all the songs they are writing are in the key of E. He asks them why and Hetfield says, "it's the lowest note." Like, duh Bob Rock, I thought you were some sort of music guy!

I about died when I first read about that. He then showed them how to de-tune.. and then "Sad but True" went through puberty. Must have been a mind blowing moment! Check out the article below. Top 10 URL right there.

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me

[Glasser]

masrah al'ahlam aljadid hu 'afdal 'album lihadha aleami.   

[Nick]

It's official, I'm old, stale, and out of the loop. When a package showed up today I honestly had no clue what it was. Happened to be the new DT album that I had pre-ordered. Was happy to get two spins in tonight and am enjoying it thus far.

[Peace and Love]

Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.

So true. There's an account of when producer Bob Rock started working with Metallica on Metallica, where he realizes all the songs they are writing are in the key of E. He asks them why and Hetfield says, "it's the lowest note." Like, duh Bob Rock, I thought you were some sort of music guy!

I about died when I first read about that. He then showed them how to de-tune.. and then "Sad but True" went through puberty. Must have been a mind blowing moment! Check out the article below. Top 10 URL right there.

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me

TBH, this is a classic case of an embellished story to make something ordinary seem more historically significant.

Metallica had already tuned down to D standard (same tuning as Sad But True) 5 years earlier, on The Thing That Should Not Be. They'd also turned to D standard on The Small Hours, in 1987. So they clearly knew how to tune down to suit a certain song.

[TheCountOfNYC]

Metal music in particular has fetishized the key of E.

So true. There's an account of when producer Bob Rock started working with Metallica on Metallica, where he realizes all the songs they are writing are in the key of E. He asks them why and Hetfield says, "it's the lowest note." Like, duh Bob Rock, I thought you were some sort of music guy!

I about died when I first read about that. He then showed them how to de-tune.. and then "Sad but True" went through puberty. Must have been a mind blowing moment! Check out the article below. Top 10 URL right there.

https://www.guitarworld.com/news/bob-rock-recalls-the-first-time-he-asked-metallica-to-tune-down-james-hetfield-looked-like-he-wanted-to-kill-me

TBH, this is a classic case of an embellished story to make something ordinary seem more historically significant.

Metallica had already tuned down to D standard (same tuning as Sad But True) 5 years earlier, on The Thing That Should Not Be. They'd also turned to D standard on The Small Hours, in 1987. So they clearly knew how to tune down to suit a certain song.

To add to this, they also had nine songs before The Black Album mostly centered around a note higher than the lowest open string (Hit the Lights, Motorbreath, Jump in the Fire, Fade to Black, Escape, The Call of Ktulu, One, To Live is to Die, and Dyers Eve).

[Herrick]

It took several listens to really get into this album. The worst part for me initially were the vocal melodies, which sound like an afterthought, but the solos/instrumentals are the biggest disappointment, because I can't remember any of them. They're all interchangeable, and stock DT. They aren't as uninspired as the trade offs in ANTR, but they aren't memorable at all. The only solos I can remember are the ones after the mellow section in the epic because they sound like Megadeth, and those aren't long enough... Great songs meander with the solos, and when I should be jamming out, I'm just waiting for the chorus to come back. The Alien has a decent solo break, and it's one of the better songs on the album. Answering the Call, Sleeping Giants, and Transcending Time are great. The epic isn't bad either. I'mma keep listening.

I can't think of many fast solos or crazy fast instrumental parts in DT's music that were instantly memorable for me. Petrucci's solo near the beginning of The Glass Prison is one of the rare exceptions because it's an easy pattern for me to grasp.

[SwedishGoose]

Got my earbook yesterday.
Had the chance to put in the BR and listen to the album with the lyrics in hand. For istrumental passaages I could glance up att the TV to see the nice animations..

Loving it so far. I feel like this will end up as the second highest ranking album of the Mangini era. The Astonishing beeing my favorite.

Also watched the documentary from DTHQ. Looks like a very  nice place they have set up for themselves. Great to see them soo exited.

[DreamerTV]

Doug Helvering (the classical composer who did a couple of reaction videos about some DT songs) chatting with JR


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOA3R0ISOVQ

[Siddhartha]

It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?

[SwedishGoose]

It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?

I thoght so. I thik it's about an hour or so.
They give a tour around the HQ and we see some behind the scenes from the writing and recording sessions. They also do a track by track discussion.

I also thought listening to the album on the BR was a cool experience with all the animations.

Then the bigger format also lets the art shine.

[Enigmachine]

For me, this album is basically what I was waiting for. It's kind of like the stars aligned with a lot of these factors: longer and freer songs, phenomenal production values, James generally singing in his comfortable range and maintaining the dense attention to detail that imo has been a staple of the current era of DT. As such, it looks like this will pretty easily end up being my favourite, especially given that production has been one of the main reasons going back to albums like Scenes and Six Degrees, despite my love of them in a purely compositional sense, has been so frustrating. I really think it's night and day going from any Shirley-mixed album to Sneap, as if one was polishing a gem. The clarity, cohesion, space, ambience etc. is utterly incredible and honestly, DT even going on total autopilot would've sounded stellar due to that.

However... autopilot I certainly don't think this is. Sure, JP does the whole "chug low notes on first verse" thing a lot, but not only does it make sense in the context of each individual song, each instance of that still manages to feel unique thanks to the rhythmic variation and the nuance in the broader arrangements. This also links into what I find to be one of the freshest things about the album, just in how off-kilter rhythmically it is. The kind of hanging-on-the-edge-of-your-seat tension that the epic has? That feels very new to me. Generally (not only the song, but the album as a whole compared to the other albums), this feels like the most musically complex piece of work they've done. Peculiar angular riffs like those in Sleeping Giant for instance are something which I never quite expected to hear as the basis for a DT song. That kind of thing is usually much more in the margins, relegated to the mid-section. If I had to nitpick, I would say that some more musical space (either a ballad, Hell's Kitchen type instrumental or just more space within the songs themselves), but that's only because the album as it stands is such an overwhelming listen.

The documentary was fun to watch as well and I think even if one didn't love the album, it's still great seeing just how much of a blast they're having on there, as well as how genuinely proud they are of this album. If people thought that the YT interview was a bit low energy and shows a lack of passion, this doc paints a very different picture. Much like the album itself, it kinda flew by, though at 37 minutes, it was still a pretty sizable chunk of content. Am very glad I got the artbook too, not only because I think DT deserve the extra bit of money for this one, but because reading the lyrics in that sort of format just feels right compared to a CD sized booklet.

Also, just to emphasise... given Sneap's work here, I really hope that DT at least consider the possibility of him remixing older albums. I'm not even particularly bothered which ones, but I feel like every single prior album would benefit from this sort of clarity. On that note, I also hope that they maintain this production team for future albums as it works a treat.

[JRuless]

It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?

I thoght so. I thik it's about an hour or so.
They give a tour around the HQ and we see some behind the scenes from the writing and recording sessions. They also do a track by track discussion.

I also thought listening to the album on the BR was a cool experience with all the animations.

Then the bigger format also lets the art shine.

Do you want to elaborate a bit on it? JM:.....no 

[illusionist]

You could've written the above post in French, and it would've made the exact same sense to me.

I laughed so hard with this 🤣🤣🤣
Btw,that's how i felt reading this myself too

[JLa]

Everybody seem to be so happy with this and I feel like I'm missing out on something. I've only heard it once, so my thoughts might very well change as I get more familiar with the songs, but my first impression wasn't all that great to be honest.

If I am to share some thoughts here ...

The production/engineering/mixing/whatever (I don't know the terms, lol), the album sounds great. As in, really great!

Sleeping Giant stood out as "the one" for me. It had some very good stuff going on, I think this will age well. I also remember parts of Answering the Call being something I want to listen to again, and the mid section of the title track was kinda cool.

But, some of the not-so-positive thoughts I had during the first playthrough:

James is playing it awfully safe. Maybe he has to, he's not 25 any more and he has to perform this stuff live, I can understand that. But I can't help but missing some of those soaring vocals anyway. It's all in his comfort zone now. The vocal melodies started sounding very similar to each other after a while.

And when we're talking about stuff sounding the same. My first impression of this album is that it sounds like a continuation of Distance over Time, which was a continuation of D/T, which again was very similar to ADTOE ... If I go back to their earlier stuff, from WDADU all the way to, let's say Octavarium, each album has its own sound. Each album is very different from the others (try playing I&W, FII and TOT back to back!), but they all sounded uniquely 'Dream Theater'. From ADTOE onwards, and perhaps even earlier, I think the band has sort of found their "formula" and just keep on pumping out variations over the same stuff over and over. OK, The Astonishing was something completely different, but still .. it's years and years with the same sound. For me it's getting stale.

And, Invisible Monster should never have been included, sheesh!

I'll keep on listening, maybe the album will grow on me a little. But I'll likely soon go back to the 90's and early 2000 albums and be grateful for those.

[PixelDream]

I actually think an album like Six Degrees had a much more interesting production. The drums sound huge and real. This, however, sounds cleaner, tighter but also a bit clinical.

That said, for me this is nonetheless the best production they’ve had in a long time! So glad to have a clear sounding album without that super ‘compressed’ sound.

[javidt]

OMG !!! Transcending Time is blowing my mind. Can't stop listening to it. Amazing and surprising track.

[Peter Mc]

After one listen...this will take more listens.  I did think it sounded good overall (from a mixing and production standpoint).  There is a lot of meat on these bones, so it will take multiple listens for me to tear through it at all.  There were a few things I liked about it, and a few things that made me grimace a little, but I don't want to pass judgment after one listen.

I didn't grimace at all, but I agree with everything else you said.

It took a number of listens, at least 5 to parse out the songs. Especially Sleeping Giant. I have referred to this album as "thick". It never really lets you have a breather.

My worry is that that it feels like a lot of the same from song to song so far, and it's like every song beats us over the head with that heavy riffing that always has a fast double bass drum driving along with it (I am sure the music geeks can explain that technique better than I can ).  I know that kind of things is a DT trademark, but it's like the whole album is a relentless onslaught of it.   I suspect that will be bother me a lot less if the vocal melodies grow on me.  I liked the dark vibe that kind of permeates throughout the whole record, but it feels like the vocal melodies really were lacking.   That worries me a little.

Is that right......hmmmmm....

Don’t agree with that part in bold at all.  I don’t think it’s one of their heavier records, it’s pretty melodic.  There are some heavy passages for sure but it’s far from relentless heavy riffing.  That’s something I was worried about when I heard The Alien and some early comments about the album being relentless with no ballads.  I also remember people refer to it as pretty much DOT 2.  Neither thing turned out to be correct at least to my ears.  Very different album to DOT and some of their most melodic sing along choruses.

[wolfking]

Well, I now own the CD.  Listening day tomorrow.

[Enigmachine]

I actually think an album like Six Degrees had a much more interesting production. The drums sound huge and real. This, however, sounds cleaner, tighter but also a bit clinical.

That said, for me this is nonetheless the best production they’ve had in a long time! So glad to have a clear sounding album without that super ‘compressed’ sound.

On paper, I get what you're saying. The Six Degrees drums do sound "huge"... but only because it's been so compressed. I recognise those kinds of muddy kick and snare sounds from turning up the compression a little too much on those. Not just that, but both seem to slam against the limiter hard, resulting in drums that are loud but lacking the kind of sharp attack (which also feels in part down to not a lot of high freqency snap) that I feel a good mix needs. I feel like Shirley's mix comes across the best in FII, because I think the space in the music itself makes the very dense low end fit a lot better, wheras something like Beyond This Life or The Glass Prison feels like it turns to mush imo as soon as it gets going.

I just think a glimmering, polished mix that still retains some natural qualities is what DT needs and that's exactly what I feel like they delivered here, as opposed to maybe the Chycki mixes which are probably too far towards the artificial side of things (albeit with DT12 also sharing some issues with muddiness). Kevin Shirley doesn't really have a history of mixing busy, intense progressive metal material beyond DT and LTE and imo, it shows. I think this kind of dense, busy music needs a mix that adapts to it and accomodates its excesses as the pairing of excessive music with excessive production values (what with the Shirley albums having a lot of that aforementioned low end with a lot of the instruments without a whole lot of frequency separation, from what I can tell) tends to be a recipe for fatigue. In all fairness, this applies to some of Sneap's mixes too, such as Nevermore's Enemies of Reality, but I do think he struck gold here.

[Kotowboy]

Yeah this is not a "heavy" album in the style of Train Of Thought. I'd put it in the same category as Octavarium - which has Root of All Evil - These Walls - Panic Attack etc

but isn't considered a 'heavy' album.

[Peter Mc]

It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?

Depends what you mean by worth it.  Worth spending an extra £25 on a box set instead of the standard cd? Absolutely not but no ‘making of’ is, you watch them once and that’s it. 

If you mean worth your time, then I’d say yes, it’s about 40 min I think but feels more substantial than that.  It’s a good watch, some funny moments, nice to get a look into DTHQ and to see the band members having fun together in the studio.  You also get a bit of a track by track breakdown.

[oceanic156]

Yeah this is not a "heavy" album in the style of Train Of Thought. I'd put it in the same category as Octavarium - which has Root of All Evil - These Walls - Panic Attack etc

but isn't considered a 'heavy' album.

I dunno, I think this is one of their 'heavier' albums for sure. Most of the album is driven by very intense, distorted riffs and deep basslines. It's not quite Train of Thought, but it feels more 'metal' to me than Distance Over Time or their self-titled. Sleeping Giant for example has many layers and some strong melodies, but the main groove hits me like Sabotage-era Black Sabbath. The guitar work on the title track is pummeling, even bringing Meshuggah to mind at points. Root of All Evil and These Walls sound like pop-metal by comparison. Some of that could be the mixing - I always thought that Octavarium and SC sounded 'thin' despite their clear attempts to be 'modern' and 'heavy'. On View it sounds natural and effortless.

The album also lacks a ballad (not that it needs one). The closest we get is Transcending Time, which isn't exactly mellow.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I think this album has more breaks from the heaviness than DoT (even though DoT has a ballad)

[Trav86]

I think this album has more breaks from the heaviness than DoT (even though DoT has a ballad)

This. It’s because none of these songs are one-dimensional. Every song is heavy but has lots of melody with ebb and flow.

[oceanic156]

Yeah, I see what you mean. I guess it's a subjective feeling regarding the 'intensity' of the songs, and it's probably mostly to do with the mixing. I say this as a huge compliment because I love the album. It brings back the same massive, dense, overwhelming feeling I got when I first heard Train of Thought.

[The Letter M]

It's the Blue Ray documentary worth it? How much time is it?

I thoght so. I thik it's about an hour or so.
They give a tour around the HQ and we see some behind the scenes from the writing and recording sessions. They also do a track by track discussion.

I also thought listening to the album on the BR was a cool experience with all the animations.

Then the bigger format also lets the art shine.

An hour? I remember reading it was only about 40 minutes. I'll find out on Monday when I have time to open my box set, which did arrive earlier than expected and came in yesterday afternoon. I'm really excited to pop in that BD and watch the documentary. I wish they had done more of those since Systematic Chaos. I might have appreciated DT12 and The Astonishing more if they had shown what went in to making those albums.

As for the new album, it continues to get better and better with each listen.

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

Working my way through a 3rd listen, and I will say that while JR's solos still usually make me want to cover my ears , his choice of sounds when it comes to atmosphere and mood on this one seem really good so far.  His choice of tones have been, for me, a bit questionable over the years, but he seems to have picked some really good ones for this record.  And I think his piano coda at the end of Transcending Time is one of the best moments on the record (so far).

[Kotowboy]

I still think the Snarling Pig is the perfect tone for the super heavy riffs. It really thickens the sound out whilst having its own character.

[lovethedrake]

The album is starting to grow on me… I actually wish the keys were louder,   I think some of the soundscapes get drowned out and it would help the album feel less “samey”.   Some of the best moments on the album are when it’s just Jordan and his sounds.

I’m enjoying the album… not sure if it will eclipse DOT but it’s a worthy follow up.

The solo breakdown in TT still drives me crazy… one of the worst decisions in a DT song ever.   That song could have been a total classic if it had an instrumental like “innocence faded” but they for some reason pick a random generic riff and do a virtuoso solo on it.

Petrucci is a small disappointment on this album and it kills me to say it as he’s my favorite musician of all time.  I really wish he switched up his tones more on this album.  He’s still killer throughout but it’s not his best performance.  There aren’t that many memorable riffs either, there’s a few for sure but i expect better from a legend like JP.  The solos by both Jordan and JP are usually “ok enough noodling let’s get back to the melody”.  Contrast this with 90’s DT and it was the solos that I was eagerly waiting for.

Some of my favorite moments are in the outro’s when it’s just Jordan’s piano or soundscapes. 

I’m sure it will continue to grow on me.

[noxon]

For those wondering about the documentary, we're streaming it live on YouTube today.

[Kotowboy]

I will be at work - will it stay on YouTube afterwards or is it a one-time only thing ?

[Kotowboy]

...And sure enough - it's barely the next day and there are guitar covers of album tracks on youTube

Yeah - cause you figured out a ten minute song - practice it until you could do it flawlessly - videoed it - edited it - uploaded it.. All within a few hours

OR you downloaded the album weeks ago

[Pettor]

Spinning and spinning the album. Honestly it's getting to the point of "omg this is f**king amazing". Just grows and grows for each listen and I am still far from understanding it all, but a lot of melodies start shining through. Sleeping Giant and Awaken The Master is what I always wanted Lost Not Forgotten and Outcry to be; dynamic and filled with energy and creative passages. Managing is doing tons of cool stuff and great atmospheric layers all over the album. sounds like he is having a blast! There's tons of good JR stuff on this album as well!

The epic is DT's innuendo. So dark and beautiful with the best JP lyrics in years.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The album is starting to grow on me… I actually wish the keys were louder,   I think some of the soundscapes get drowned out and it would help the album feel less “samey”.   Some of the best moments on the album are when it’s just Jordan and his sounds.

I’m enjoying the album… not sure if it will eclipse DOT but it’s a worthy follow up.

The solo breakdown in TT still drives me crazy… one of the worst decisions in a DT song ever.   That song could have been a total classic if it had an instrumental like “innocence faded” but they for some reason pick a random generic riff and do a virtuoso solo on it.

Petrucci is a small disappointment on this album and it kills me to say it as he’s my favorite musician of all time.  I really wish he switched up his tones more on this album.  He’s still killer throughout but it’s not his best performance.  There aren’t that many memorable riffs either, there’s a few for sure but i expect better from a legend like JP.  The solos by both Jordan and JP are usually “ok enough noodling let’s get back to the melody”.  Contrast this with 90’s DT and it was the solos that I was eagerly waiting for.

Some of my favorite moments are in the outro’s when it’s just Jordan’s piano or soundscapes. 

I’m sure it will continue to grow on me.

My impression of that section was also like 

Not needed at all and sounds a little forced. It doesn't ruin the song at all for me but just an interesting if not odd choice.