*Official* A View from the Top of the World discussion thread

[hefdaddy42]

I know for me - and for those that don't know, DT fan since 1992; I have something like 2500 CDs and 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I think DT is the band with the 3rd or 4th most songs in there - most of this is visceral.  I either like it or I don't.

I think that's where it's got to start.  You can analyze the music afterwards, to try to figure out what features contribute to your enjoyment (or lack thereof), but first you just have to like it (or not).

[Awaken]

I either like it or I don't. 
[/quote]

Perfectly stated, and really needs no explanation beyond this.  DT consistently releases material that I like (then grow to love). 

Rarely does a song hit me on first listen the way Barstool Warrior/At Wit's End/Answering the Call do.  The ones I end up appreciating most are the ones that require me to put in the time (Sleeping Giant/Awaken the Master/A View).  This formula hasn't changed since I was loaned Images and Words way back when and continues now.  Every album also has tracks that DON'T resonate with me so I skip them. Every now and then I'll revisit to see if anything's changed. 

If it's not resonating, it's not resonating.  That's not DT's fault.  That's not your fault.  Maybe it will change, maybe it won't.  I kind of cringe when I see things like 'This sucks', 'This is uninspired', though.  Watch the doc that came w the album.  There are 5 guys just loving the process and seem to be giving everything to crafting their art.  There's nothing 'uninspired' about it, completely baseless and unfair comment.

[Zook]

when DOT came out, it was clear that Mangini was full on in the writing, and "unleashed", but listening to it after AVATTOTW, he sounds really subdued. Not bad at all, I really like that album, but he goes nuts on the new one, and is very laid back on the previous outing even though I original thought how incorporated and crazy he sounded. It's weird.

[Ben_Jamin]

when DOT came out, it was clear that Mangini was full on in the writing, and "unleashed", but listening to it after AVATTOTW, he sounds really subdued. Not bad at all, I really like that album, but he goes nuts on the new one, and is very laid back on the previous outing even though I original thought how incorporated and crazy he sounded. It's weird.

I think it's due to the band focusing on the rhythms and grooves of the songs. Utilizing Manginis GRID and number pattern knowledge. Doing this made the focus bring attention to the drums more so than the guitars and keyboards.

In a way, it's almost as if by doing this, the drums and bass rhythm and grooves are the prime focus, more so than the melodies of the Guitar and Keyboards. Which is not your normal way in which people focus on the music.

A View.. is very rhythmically focused. Which could explain the melodies not being as prominent as normal.

[Wim Kruithof]

But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.

I don't think I've ever seen everything I hate about fandom culture captured so singularly.

My English might lack here but I'm not sure I follow what you mean to say.

If someone's judgement about the album not being that great because they have only listened a few times means nothing, then gushing about the album after only a few listens also means nothing as well, correct?

Sure, I agree it works both ways. But I never ment to say it means nothing. To him it does and that's a pity. Especially when you looked forward to this record so much. I was over the moon the first time I listened to it and that hasn't changed. But it took me a while to appreciate the Alien like I do now. I really like it now, but needed quite a few spins before I could.

Having that said, I wrote down his flavour might have changed. That isn't to judge one or something, but it happens to me all the time.

Awake and the Astonishing are both albums I wasn't overwhelmed by at first listen. Or second, or third... it needed a lot of spins for me to sink into my heart and right now it's there to stay. I absolutely love them both. A Dramatic Turn of Events was there right from the getgo but that album I am not listening to that much lately.

My taste for style also is related to mood, emotion, life-events and so on and changes frequently. Which is perfectly fine because in my opinion, Dream Theater has a matching album for every fase I'm facing, or going through.

[LKap13]

Just listening to symphony x's underworld right now and I'm realizing why I love View so much. It's a merger of all the best elements of DT and the best elements of SX. Something I've always hoped for and thought would never happen

[425]

I was kind of scared to listen to this after being underwhelmed by DoT and, well... let's say "whelmed" by The Astonishing and DT12. Combine that with being particularly busy at work lately and the result is that I only listened to this album for the first time yesterday.

I'm relieved. I think this will be my favorite DT album since ADTOE.

[darkshade]

It's not that they wrote 7 of the same songs on AV, it's that you could cut and paste different parts and sections of each song and mix and match with other songs and the results would be about the same. I don't think you could say that about any other DT album.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

OK, three listens in and I don't feel the need nor do I feel the urge to listen to the album. I haven't experienced this since the BC&SL days...Not that it's a bad album per se, but maybe I have moved on. F***...

B.Lee

Amen

Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and I appreciate every new release.  With that said.  This is the the absolute worst album they have ever  released to me personally.  I am not one of those people that say  Petrucci plays with no emotion but this album goes nowhere for me and does nothing for me. I can go back to any DT album and get chills (A Change of Seasons for example) but I feel absolutely nothing from this albums. No "Barstool Warriors" At Wit's End A Change of Seasons etc.  Nothing.  For the first time I am not taken on a journey.  I feel nothing.  Absolutely nothing from this album.  To this day I get chills from countless DT songs like the "let us adore him" section from a "Change of Seasons" This album to \me is void of melody and emotion.  Every song has solos that sound like they could come from any song on the album. It is lifeless. I appreciate all of the albums that DT has released and keeps on gifting to us.  To me though this s the absolute worst and I never need to hear it again.  No emotion.  Every solo sounds like it could come from any song on the album. I appreciate that DT keeps giving us new albums but tis is the first time where I do not wish to hear any songs from a DT album again.  I am glad that most fans seem to like it but it doesn't click with me no matter how many times that I listen.  Every release dwarfs this including The Astonishing and Cleaning the Closet.

Sounds like maybe you have changed rather than the band.

 I haven't changed at all. This album does nothing for me.  Every album has taken me on a journey but this one is emotionless and is the first that I can't even force myself to enjoy.  Dream Theater is my favorite band of all time and nothing will change that. I hope that their next album connects with me but this is the first one that I don't enjoy listening to at all.  I rate it below the debut album.  I like the songs on WDDU but I am not a fan of Charlie so it has always been ranked the lowest for me. This one ranks lower because it is emotionless and unrememberable when it comes to solos or vocal melodies. Nothing catches me at all on this one.  On albums that I considered weaker at least I had songs like "At Wits End" or "Barstool Warriors" that connected.  Nothing from this album is memorable and is anything that I want to hear again.  To me is seems that memorable vocal melodies were a complete afterthought.  So many DT songs in the past give me chills and still do no matter how many times that I hear them.  This one to me sounds all the same through most of the album and is emotionless.

You know, you keep saying the album is 'emotionless' and 'unmemorable' but also that you haven't changed. The contradiction there is that DT15 is very much in line with 3 out of the last 3 albums. I am not sure what in this album is 'emotionless' or why you think that JP play with 'no emotion' here but not on DoT or DT12. I can tell you for sure, nothing in his style has changed. Maybe you are just moving on from this band? I think that saying it's 'emotionless' is sort of a meaningless thing to say -- how can you say that his output is emotionless? were you there with him when he was writing the album? did he seem exhausted and uninterested? did he say he felt detached while writing DT15? --so I was just trying to come up with a more plausible explanation that is actually quite common: people and their tastes change over time.

Can I ask a question of those who are pushing back on some of the criticisms? Do you "think" about these reactions, or are they visceral?   I know for me - and for those that don't know, DT fan since 1992; I have something like 2500 CDs and 35,000 songs on my iPod, and I think DT is the band with the 3rd or 4th most songs in there - most of this is visceral.  I either like it or I don't.  Sometimes things change over time - it took until the Ytsejam Director's Cut to really embrace Falling Into Infinity - but for the most part, I FEEL it, then try to explain it, not the other way around.   So for some of you to question someone's emotional response to something (or not) makes me scratch my head.  Even across the album there are parts that hit and parts that don't.   I LOVE LOVE LOVE the part in "Awaken The Master" when the vocals come in (about 2:40) and there's a sort of resolution at about 3:00 that is really satisfying.  I can't help but listen to other songs and wish there was as impactful a moment.  It is what it is.

I am not sure I totally follow the question, but I don't think anyone here is questioning anyone's emotional response to music; it doesn't make sense to. I've said numerous times in my posts that people experience music differently and no one needs to justify hearing/feeling music a certain way.

I can't speak for any other poster, but I think the pushback is when people try to describe their experience by making ridiculous comments about the band or their mindset or songwriting process or in some cases the final output. It's one thing to say 'I am uninspired by DT15' but it's another thing entirely to say the band is uninspired or to suggest that DT15 is an uninspired effort-- unless of course you actually have some proof (statements from band members perhaps) that they were not inspired. Similarly, it's one thing to say 'I feel no emotion listening to this' and another to say the band's output here is emotionless-- and to be fair, the poster I responded to said both. I was not in the room with them, but it seems extremely unlikely to me that this was an uninspired and/or emotionless product and the same goes for albums I personally do not like: Octavarium, Astonishing

So in sum, it's not about piling on people for not liking a record. We have another thread on the inspired vs. uninspired 'criticism' and I see the 'emotionless' comment about DT15 to be in the same spirit as those types of descriptions.

[erwinrafael]

Yeah, it is the hyperboles that I personally react to.

It's not that they wrote 7 of the same songs on AV, it's that you could cut and paste different parts and sections of each song and mix and match with other songs and the results would be about the same. I don't think you could say that about any other DT album.

Train of Thought says hello.

I don't think you can really just cut and paste sections in this album even the instrumentals. With the exception of Transcending Time, the instrumentals play over a riff or a rhythmic idea that already played earlier in the song.

[ReaPsTA]

But then again, you wrote you only listened three times. So your judgement is pretty fast thrown out.

I don't think I've ever seen everything I hate about fandom culture captured so singularly.

My English might lack here but I'm not sure I follow what you mean to say.

If English is not your first language, then I'll give some benefit of the doubt here. To me it's lame to say that someone can't have an opinion on a piece of music after only listening to it three times. I don't like, when in serious fandoms of something, people try to make themselves look important and make others look bad over how much they can obsess over the fandom object. It's hard for me to read a criticism of someone only listening to a piece of music three times in a different way.

But perhaps you didn't mean it in the way I read it.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I either like it or I don't. 

Perfectly stated, and really needs no explanation beyond this.  DT consistently releases material that I like (then grow to love). 

Rarely does a song hit me on first listen the way Barstool Warrior/At Wit's End/Answering the Call do.  The ones I end up appreciating most are the ones that require me to put in the time (Sleeping Giant/Awaken the Master/A View).  This formula hasn't changed since I was loaned Images and Words way back when and continues now.  Every album also has tracks that DON'T resonate with me so I skip them. Every now and then I'll revisit to see if anything's changed. 

If it's not resonating, it's not resonating.  That's not DT's fault.  That's not your fault.  Maybe it will change, maybe it won't.  I kind of cringe when I see things like 'This sucks', 'This is uninspired', though.  Watch the doc that came w the album.  There are 5 guys just loving the process and seem to be giving everything to crafting their art.  There's nothing 'uninspired' about it, completely baseless and unfair comment.
[/quote]

This.

[wolfking]

I got up to IM on my 3rd listen to this album and switched it off.  For me, this album is one of my all time biggest disappointments when it comes to a band I love.

[TAC]

I'm shocked at this.

[wolfking]

I'm shocked at this.

I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here.  I'm glad it's so well received.

I'll try again in a couple of weeks.

[erwinrafael]

Even Answering The Call is not connecting?

[Dedalus]

I'm shocked at this.

I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here.  I'm glad it's so well received.

I'll try again in a couple of weeks.

Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?

When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.

It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.

[erwinrafael]

ATM and ATC really pulling away from the pack 20 days since album release!

They already earned between 15,000-20,000 USD from Spotify for this album so far. Not bad. 

[Wim Kruithof]

I don't like, when in serious fandoms of something, people try to make themselves look important and make others look bad over how much they can obsess over the fandom object. It's hard for me to read a criticism of someone only listening to a piece of music three times in a different way.

But perhaps you didn't mean it in the way I read it.

Not in my previous 200 posts, nor in any of them in the future will you ever see me trying to look important or making someone else look bad. Just not my style, as a matter of fact... I consider myself a rookie / newby in here or in Dream Theater as general, 'cause I just became aware of them not that long ago. Which - of course - is such a pity.

But what I do have experienced myself (also mentioned above) some tracks needs more listens to, just to digest and become appreciated. Sometimes even a whole album. Hopefully for Hanz Gruber his view on a View will change at any moment. And if not, fine by me, so to speak.

[wolfking]

Even Answering The Call is not connecting?

Meh.  It's okay.

[wolfking]

I'm shocked at this.

I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here.  I'm glad it's so well received.

I'll try again in a couple of weeks.

Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?

When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.

It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.

Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity.  Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.

[Kotowboy]

Just seen a vid on YouTube

" Why I no longer CARE about Dream Theater "

( 30 mins )

[darkshade]

Yeah, it is the hyperboles that I personally react to.

It's not that they wrote 7 of the same songs on AV, it's that you could cut and paste different parts and sections of each song and mix and match with other songs and the results would be about the same. I don't think you could say that about any other DT album.

Train of Thought says hello.

I don't think you can really just cut and paste sections in this album even the instrumentals. With the exception of Transcending Time, the instrumentals play over a riff or a rhythmic idea that already played earlier in the song.

Each song on ToT has more of its own identity than the songs on AV. It's just the first DT album where almost every song is heavy.
AV doesn't have an emotional break like Vacant either.
If ToT's songs were just TDS and HTF for 7 tracks, I'd agree with you.

[Kotowboy]

Wait, every song on A View From The Top sound the same ?

[JK Simmons from Spider Man Gif here]

[KevShmev]

Even Answering The Call is not connecting?

Meh.  It's okay.

I don't get the "Even Answering The Call is not connecting?" question, as if that is some instant classic with alleged greatness that cannot be missed.  I think it is a solid tune, but that is the one song where Rudess is not a huge asset IMO, as I am not a fan of that lead stuff that he plays along with the main riff (we first hear it around the 22-second mark).  I do like the end when he plays the same thing with the orchestral chords (or whatever it is called) that sounds very much like classic DT, but the earlier stuff is the kind of playing of his that often turns me off.

[darkshade]

Wait, every song on A View From The Top sound the same ?

[JK Simmons from Spider Man Gif here]

None of the 7 songs differentiate themselves from one another very much to my ears, aside from a riff here or there.

[erwinrafael]

Even Answering The Call is not connecting?

Meh.  It's okay.

I don't get the "Even Answering The Call is not connecting?" question, as if that is some instant classic with alleged greatness that cannot be missed.  I think it is a solid tune, but that is the one song where Rudess is not a huge asset IMO, as I am not a fan of that lead stuff that he plays along with the main riff (we first hear it around the 22-second mark).  I do like the end when he plays the same thing with the orchestral chords (or whatever it is called) that sounds very much like classic DT, but the earlier stuff is the kind of playing of his that often turns me off.

I just asked it because it sounds catchy to me. Nothing more to that question.

[Dream Team]

I got up to IM on my 3rd listen to this album and switched it off.  For me, this album is one of my all time biggest disappointments when it comes to a band I love.

Hey Wolfie, honest question, but didn't it kinda sound like in the Maiden thread that you had already made up your mind about this album before you heard it? Maybe that's having a little bit of an effect?

[Wim Kruithof]

AV doesn't have an emotional break like Vacant either.

Not as a single song, but the cello in the middle section of the title track is much more an emotional break to me, than Vacant was on Train of Thought. The story behind Vacant with LaBries daughter in a coma makes it emotional, but to me, the middle section in a View raises every hair on my arm.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't get the "Even Answering The Call is not connecting?" question, as if that is some instant classic with alleged greatness that cannot be missed.

I think it's more that it's the most universally liked song with the fewest elements anyone could really object to.

[Kotowboy]

I always find the songs EVERYONE LOVES are usually the ones I don't click with like Breaking All Illusions, A Change Of Seasons, Transcending Time...

[Dedalus]

I'm shocked at this.

I'm shocked at the positivity about the album but I'm not going to spread any more negative vibes in here.  I'm glad it's so well received.

I'll try again in a couple of weeks.

Why? OK, you didn't like it. But be surprised by the good reception? And why would it be otherwise?

When I first heard TA I thought "Oh... this is going to be torn apart"... but this record is the opposite.

It's very easy to understand and even predict a good reception here.

Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity.  Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.

You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.

To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.

[Kotowboy]

Reading some of the initial reactions long before the album was out - It was either the greatest thing they'd ever done - or it was extremely safe and going thru the motions DT.

In the end - for me it's joint first of the Mangini albums. Pretty good. Probably won't be remembered as fondly as Scenes or Six Degrees - but pretty good

[Dedalus]

Each song on ToT has more of its own identity than the songs on AV. It's just the first DT album where almost every song is heavy.
AV doesn't have an emotional break like Vacant either.
If ToT's songs were just TDS and HTF for 7 tracks, I'd agree with you.

By coincidence I listened to TOT yesterday, after a long time.

I don't think this is really correct. Only Vacant breaks the pattern. The other six tracks are very cohesive with each other. To say that TOT has more diversity and variability than the current album is nonsense.


By the way, in this respect I think the two albums have similarities. The songs are not identical, but aesthetically they seem quite cohesive with each other on both albums (except Vacant in TOT and TT in A View). Also, I don't think TOT has anything similar to the title track of the new album, in terms of internal diversity. Which makes it even more monochromatic.

[425]

Me being shocked by the positivity is no different to others being shocked about my negativity.  Only difference is I'm vastly outnumbered.

You did not answer the question. Why did you expect this record to be mostly poorly received by fans?
Realize that I'm not asking why you didn't like it. Not liking something is different from most fans not liking something. I'm sure it's easy to understand the difference between one person (n=1) from a larger and significant set of a population.

To say you are overwhelmed by the positivity towards the album is a surprising statement IMO.
I'm curious to understand why.

I think it's pretty obvious that he's surprised by the positivity because he doesn't enjoy it very much.

I like that this forum is generally a pretty positive place, and I definitely don't like the kind of online community that's focused around negativity, but... One of the reasons I don't spend much time on the DT side is that it sometimes does feel like you can't say you don't like something without being interrogated.