Author Topic: Squid Game  (Read 12671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19238
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2021, 11:45:13 AM »
Just finished it.

Started out really loving it and by the end thought it was meh. Peaked at the marble episode and I slowly lost interest as it limped to the finish line.

Yep. This is/was me. I’ve commented in the other thread about the show…..I get some of the symbolism and foreshadowing was done well but all in all I thought it was a pretty average show with average writing and average character development/interest. IMO Certainly nothing to garner the accolades and mania that’s happening around it.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2021, 11:45:19 AM »
I disagree on the writing.  The writing on this show was FAR above average.  Loads of really smart writing that you don't see in the typical show.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online The Realm

  • Posts: 1442
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2021, 10:05:04 PM »
Just finished it.

Started out really loving it and by the end thought it was meh. Peaked at the marble episode and I slowly lost interest as it limped to the finish line.

Yep. This is/was me. I’ve commented in the other thread about the show…..I get some of the symbolism and foreshadowing was done well but all in all I thought it was a pretty average show with average writing and average character development/interest. IMO Certainly nothing to garner the accolades and mania that’s happening around it.

I have to say that I really disagree with the bold text. I think it is totally cool if you don't like the show, I can totally understand that. But one thing this show does above many others is it does its best to develop the characters and give them backstories and meaningful connections and in some ways kind of realistic reasons for taking part in the game. I mean the first two thirds or more of the first episode is just totally character development.

Overall I thought this was a really great show, but I am very surprised at its overall popularity.

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19238
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2021, 11:32:33 PM »
Just finished it.

Started out really loving it and by the end thought it was meh. Peaked at the marble episode and I slowly lost interest as it limped to the finish line.

Yep. This is/was me. I’ve commented in the other thread about the show…..I get some of the symbolism and foreshadowing was done well but all in all I thought it was a pretty average show with average writing and average character development/interest. IMO Certainly nothing to garner the accolades and mania that’s happening around it.

I have to say that I really disagree with the bold text. I think it is totally cool if you don't like the show, I can totally understand that. But one thing this show does above many others is it does its best to develop the characters and give them backstories and meaningful connections and in some ways kind of realistic reasons for taking part in the game. I mean the first two thirds or more of the first episode is just totally character development.

Overall I thought this was a really great show, but I am very surprised at its overall popularity.

Yeah….I’ll just agree to disagree about the writing. Just like music this is all subjective so it’s all about perception. I’m not suggesting there was zero character development, I just don’t see the development that was there as overly impressive.

I have a major issue with the wasted under cover police officer character. That entire storyline was just a waste of time…..tying him to the host was literally pointless especially given there was no second season planned (until the popularity) so it’s not as if they were setting up a dramatic return of the cop who survived the gunshot and fall to the ocean. And being that the show jumped a year if the information he sent out was received by his captain there’d have been news about it. And You could sense the entire time who the final two would be and that ol boy was going to either sacrifice himself like he did or refuse to kill the main character due to the heavily alluded to regret he had building up.

Anyway…..I don’t want to rag on the show too much because I know folks dug it. But I have a massive backlog of shows/movies/series etc etc……I’ve watched……almost a shameful amount….. and when I compare this show to the countless hours of content I’ve viewed……my opinion still remains that it’s an average show in all aspects.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Online The Realm

  • Posts: 1442
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2021, 12:19:02 AM »
All good, I get it.

In terms of the police officer character, he really existed as a way for us, the audience to gain further information and back story on the history of the games. Him being in the show provided a way into the 'behind the scenes' including the file room etc which helped build the history. It could have been done in other ways I guess but that is the way the creators/writers chose to do it. Linking him to another character also provided a 'shock reveal'. Also, we don't know for sure if he is dead so he may return....

Online gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19238
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2021, 12:46:17 AM »
All good, I get it.

In terms of the police officer character, he really existed as a way for us, the audience to gain further information and back story on the history of the games. Him being in the show provided a way into the 'behind the scenes' including the file room etc which helped build the history. It could have been done in other ways I guess but that is the way the creators/writers chose to do it. Linking him to another character also provided a 'shock reveal'. Also, we don't know for sure if he is dead so he may return....

Totally get that’s why he was there…..but, tying him to the host for the very short reunion with zero resolution as to why his brother was the host……it didn’t seem very well planned out. And again, this was written with no plan for a S2 so his return wasn’t a sure thing. He will 100% show back up in the inevitable S2 though.

I think the audience could have learned all we did from the chic who had already crawled through the duct work. The groundwork was laid for her to be able to run around the complex but I can see why they used the UC officer. Just feel like it was pretty anti climactic between he and his brother, especially since the moment the workers said the single kidney dead person was a girl it was a given the host was his brother. That reveal wasn’t much of a shocker.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2021, 09:44:45 AM »
Yeah, reading what you wrote, none of that is bad writing--it's just stuff that, for whatever reason, doesn't work for you specifically.  I'll stand by this being one of the most smartly and tightly written TV series I've seen in a VERY long time. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Lonk

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6157
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2021, 09:04:46 AM »
For those not sure if they want to see the show, here's a quick video summary  :lol

https://imgur.com/gallery/bbZ9z9C
Vmadera has evolved into Lonk

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2021, 01:30:08 PM »
Was just kind of messing around with the math on the games to see, theoretically, how many winners you could realistically have in the games.  Heavy spoilers below, so read at own risk if you haven't seen this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

















Some of this is based on Film Theory's analysis here (which is a GREAT video, as are a lot of his):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54avjfIu1OI

So, walking through each game, working off or actual probabilities, as well as some other assumptions, I wanted to try to figure out a "maximum" number of potential winners.  These are VERY optimistic assumptions, but again, I just wanted to try to figure out the maximum numbers, so that's why. 

So, we go into the first game with 456 players.  And the largest player % elimination games are the player vs. player games, which occur in rounds 3 (tug of war), 4 (marbles), and 6 (squid game).  But round 5 (bridge) is also problematic, for reasons I will get into below.  Let's also assume that the players quickly figure out MattPat's premise in the video above that cooperation maximizes everyone's survival, and so nobody sabotages/kills anyone else. 

Round 1 (red light/green light):  We start with 456 players.  Someone is going to screw up.  Let's say it initially plays out like we saw in episode 1.  But as soon as the second guy dies, the other players realize what is going on and hold it together, getting through the round with only 2 eliminations.  Yeah, that is WAY optimistic.  But let's roll with it.  So we get out of round 1 with 454 players.

Round 2 (dalgona):  Let's assume everyone gets through--especially if they pick up on the clues and figure out what the game is, and all choose easy shapes, and/or they figure out the licking strategy or some other creative means of surviving the round.  End of round:  454 players.  Odds are, we are going to lose some players anyway, but whatever.  Deal with it.

Round 3 (tug of war):  Start with 454 players.  This is the first player vs. player challenge.  Half of the people playing this round are going to die.  With 454 players, that would yield 45 teams.  But you need an even number of teams, so one team could not play.  That leaves 14 people that will not play in that round.  As we saw in the marbles episode, players who are not chosen for a team and cannot play do not get eliminated.  We CAN assume that that would apply in all such games, because that is actually a thing in Korean culture (which is exactly WHY it happened in the Marbles episode).  Basically, in kids' games, where younger or weaker or less popular kids don't get picked on teams, those kids get to play and are given perks or are immune from losing so that they can get a chance to play like everyone else.  Anyhow, we get 44 teams, or 440 playing.  22 teams will be eliminated.  So 454 - 220 players gives us 234 players at the end of the round.

Round 4 (marbles):  Another player vs. player round.  Start:  234 players.  Half are eliminated, leaving 117.

Round 5 (bridge):  This is where I lean heavily into the Film Theory video.  We start with the assumption that, statistically, the first 9 people (on average) die.  Maybe the glass maker comes forward early, and we lose less than that.  But let's just stick with the math.  So we are down to 108, according to MattPat's formula.  And let's say everyone cooperates from this point forward, and they also move quickly and don't waste time.  But here's the problem we still have:  Even moving quickly, but carefully, I don't think we can get that many people across the bridge before time runs out.  They have to move quickly to conserve time.  But they have to move carefully because one wrong move, and...well, you know.  This is where it gets really hard to predict.  I dunno.  Is it optimistic AND realistic to assume we get 54 across the bridge in the time limit?  Let's just go with that.  End of round:  54 survivors.

Round 6 (squid game):  The last player vs. player game.  We go in with 54 survivors.  How many get eliminated?  Hmm...hard to say.  In one sense, the defense is at a supreme disadvantage.  They can succeed all the way through until the last player, and if that last player breaks through, the entire defense loses and is eliminated.  On the other hand, with 54 survivors, that leaves 27 defenders to defend the court.  27!  Given the size of the court, I think they can easily cover it well enough that nobody can get through.  In any case, let's just assume optimum results for one team or the other, and 50% survive.  That leave us 27 winners.

So, being somewhat realistic, but aggressively optimistic, I think we could maybe have as many as 27 winners in a given season. 

So that was my fun math/time-wasting exercise for today.  :D


"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36235
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2021, 01:30:59 PM »
Saw the first episode today. Really good!

Based on the non-spoiler stuff I've read here and elsewhere, the show kind of goes downhill after the first episode a bit?
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2021, 01:36:21 PM »
I wouldn't say that.  Not at all.  There are definitely peaks and valleys all the way through, but there is some REALLY good stuff in the later episodes.

If you have time to kill once you get finished, I highly recommend her reaction videos:  https://www.youtube.com/c/AlexandraOlesen/videos

The reason is, starting about midway through, she drops a LOT of explanations about Korean culture and certain words or phrases that have a much deeper meaning in Korean than the translations can convey.  She drops a few important ones in the earlier episodes as well, but I probably got a lot more from the later episodes. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online faizoff

  • Posts: 5703
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2021, 02:27:44 PM »
Saw the first episode today. Really good!

Based on the non-spoiler stuff I've read here and elsewhere, the show kind of goes downhill after the first episode a bit?

I think the momentum changes by the end and most would say it's a drop in quality. I don't know if I think it's a drop in quality but I personally think some of the loose ends could have been tied together a bit better. I have no problem with the ending or how things were left. Some things in the end appear a bit messy.
"Oh how am I doing?...eating so much pussy, I'm shitting clits, son!" - Jonah Ryan

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2021, 04:37:47 PM »
...I personally think some of the loose ends could have been tied together a bit better. I have no problem with the ending or how things were left. Some things in the end appear a bit messy.

Really?  ???  They dangled so many loose ends throughout the show, and somehow managed to tie up ALL of them, including ones most people did not even realize were loose ends until the end of the show.  They paid of SO MANY Chekhov's guns that I can't see how they possibly could have done it better.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online faizoff

  • Posts: 5703
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2021, 08:07:01 PM »
I'm not saying they didn't tie them up, I'm saying they could have made a bit more cohesive. This isn't overtly negative on my part btw, I really really enjoyed the show and I would rate it a solid 9/10 overall. I'm just saying the way they tied it up could've been a little cleaner.

Like the cop's arc. From the interviews I read of the creator/director/writer he mentions that his story was tacked on later as he felt there needed to be more perspective from an outsider. I don't have a problem with his arc, I just wished again that it was maybe somewhat rounded.

The best part of the entire show is the character development of all major roles including many of the side roles, but the cop's was kinda just there IMO.
"Oh how am I doing?...eating so much pussy, I'm shitting clits, son!" - Jonah Ryan

Offline soupytwist

  • Posts: 2756
  • Gender: Male
  • Star Trekkin
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2021, 11:46:17 PM »
Saw the first episode today. Really good!

Based on the non-spoiler stuff I've read here and elsewhere, the show kind of goes downhill after the first episode a bit?

No as someone else said it's peaks and valleys.  I think it peaks on the marble episode, but unfortunately it's weakest episode is the finale, but even then it's not a Dexter (or Enterprise 🤪) finale, it's just a bit flat.

Offline ErHaO

  • Posts: 2872
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2021, 06:31:16 AM »
At episode 7. Enjoying it, but man are those VIP's hamming it up, feels like they are parody characters

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36235
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2021, 07:09:13 PM »
Episode 6 just destroyed me.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2021, 07:31:24 PM »
Yup.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36235
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2021, 07:23:19 PM »
Episode 7 was good, but so far the worst. The actors playing the VIPs were terrible and the big explosion thing at the end felt way too over the top.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline soupytwist

  • Posts: 2756
  • Gender: Male
  • Star Trekkin
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2021, 02:18:43 AM »
Episode 7 was good, but so far the worst. The actors playing the VIPs were terrible and the big explosion thing at the end felt way too over the top.

Episode 8 is a strange one is that's it's about half the length of the other episodes - on saying that I think it's the best of the final 3 episodes.

Offline Lax

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 339
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2021, 03:01:13 AM »
It was slow, too straightforward, a real pain to watch for me.

Even the gore was useless, it added nothing, and kids are watching that with or without their parents' consent and recreate the games at school.

Long story short :
-Watch only the games
-Boo boo, capitalism bad, this world is rotten, people are bad

Would rewatch Battle Royale 10 times over that.

PS : Some of squid games actors are good.
EBMM JP12 Cherry Sugar + JP7 Pearl Redburst
Axe FX 2 XL+ & MFC101 MK3 & Roland EV5
Boss WL-50, Morpheus droptune, G-Lab Wowee Wah, 2x Yamaha HS7, Sennheiser HD25 SP2 & Jamhub Bedroom
https://www.facebook.com/Laxthestampede/

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13454
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2021, 04:58:59 AM »
I'm watching this, I'm three episodes in.

I was surprised how the second episode started with the outcome of the vote, you'd figure that of course they would vote in a certain way since it's the second episode but no... anyway, episode three it's all back to business and now let's see how it will go.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline ErHaO

  • Posts: 2872
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2021, 05:05:47 AM »
I overall enjoyed it. There are many things I consider to be top tier streaming, but there are two things I really could do without: the shitty acting of the VIP's and the plot twist in the final episode (which for me really cheapened a great moment a couple of episodes prior).

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13454
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2021, 04:09:01 AM »
Finished it. Overall, a good show, the hype was deserved.

I daresay that the marble episodes was better than the infamous "Long night" episode of the final season of Game of Thrones. The moment you realize that the couples are not playing together, but against each other, you go "oh shit so each one of them will die and only the other one will survive?"..... and yes, that's exactly what happens, no cop-outs (except, well, the twist).

That was the heaviest episode. And silly of me to never even think that the last game of Squid Game would have been..... a squid game.
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline ErHaO

  • Posts: 2872
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2021, 05:14:45 PM »
Finished it. Overall, a good show, the hype was deserved.

I daresay that the marble episodes was better than the infamous "Long night" episode of the final season of Game of Thrones. The moment you realize that the couples are not playing together, but against each other, you go "oh shit so each one of them will die and only the other one will survive?"..... and yes, that's exactly what happens, no cop-outs (except, well, the twist).

That was the heaviest episode. And silly of me to never even think that the last game of Squid Game would have been..... a squid game.

I agree, the marble episode was really well done, with a lot of tension and emotional baggage.

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

  • I hit things for a living!
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9243
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2021, 01:33:13 PM »
So I finally gave in and watched it, I usually avoid very hyped shows for various reasons. This show is just everywhere, even my 10-12yr students talk about this....

In general I liked it, I kinda thought it would be more gory than it was and I had pictured something completely diffrent regarding this famous "marble" episode.  :lol

I was a bit annoyed by the VIPs episode, I just thought that episode was kinda weak and the acting was just meh other than that it was a good show.

K-shows are lit right now!
"I said to Nigel Tufnel, 'The door is open if you want to do anything on this record,' but it turns out Nigel has a phobia about doors." /Derek Smalls

Online cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34448
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2021, 08:34:50 AM »
So MrBeast made a real life squid game show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0e3GPea1Tyg

It's actually pretty well thought out and executed (obviously without people dying).  I'd recommend checking it out, but there is a very annoying advertisement built into the video which kind of sucks the steam out of it.  The game with the glass walk way is actually really intense.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13454
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2021, 09:39:19 AM »
It's actually pretty well thought out and executed

(obviously without people dying).

Mmmmh pick one.





 ;D :lol
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30753
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2022, 12:20:37 PM »
...I personally think some of the loose ends could have been tied together a bit better. I have no problem with the ending or how things were left. Some things in the end appear a bit messy.

Really?  ???  They dangled so many loose ends throughout the show, and somehow managed to tie up ALL of them, including ones most people did not even realize were loose ends until the end of the show.  They paid of SO MANY Chekhov's guns that I can't see how they possibly could have done it better.
Late to the party, but I blew through the show in two nights and just read through this thread, and this post baffles me.

For the record, I liked the show a lot. It was a great idea and it was very well done. I thought the writing and acting were excellent.* I even liked the episode after Marbles with the VIP guys, which doesn't seem to have gone over well here. As good as Marbles was, it was absolutely gut wrenching, and the VIP guys were just silly enough to provide a brief, but necessary respite, while still being fairly dramatic and evocative. I did have a couple of problems, though. The circle guy allowing the bully to change the rules in the marbles game was totally out of character for the series. Also, the game itself delivering a mortal wound to the cute Korean gal who'd just successfully completing the challenge was also problematic. Both kind of dumped on the idea of the contestants all being equal insofar as the game is concerned, which was a major point of the contest. Still, minor problems.

I thought the final episode was awful, though, and the idea that that they wrapped up all the lose ends baffles me. The final showdown with the squid game was exactly how it should have ended, but they added a pointless, and honestly stupid plot twist rather than answering questions they spent half the series asking. Making Old Guy the Host was silly and unnecessary. Not to mention that he was far more interesting as Player 001, and going out the way he was presumed to have. Leaving the Host unknown would have been just fine--it was a question that didn't need answering. Why the Front Man was the cop's brother, and what their story was actually did need to be addressed. I had assumed early on the Front Man was a previous winner, but since they pointed out that the cop's brother only disappeared a few days earlier, there was no reason to connect the two. I understand why they added the cop to the series, they wanted to show some of the behind the scenes goings on, but the lack of an ending to that, in favor of a silly plot twist was a real injustice, I think. And since the writer/director/creator wasn't considering a sequel at that point, he doesn't have that as an excuse.

*I find subtitles tiresome, but it's really the only way to go. In truth, with good acting you don't need to understand every word of dialogue. Tone and inflection are just as important as the words they use. Dubbing works alright because we don't know the actors, and how they sound in real life and in their native language, but it kind of resolves the actors to the role of stand-ins. Try reversing that and thinking of famous actors and how it'd work if they were overdubbed. Maybe Harvey Keitel. How's that gonna work out? Steve Buschimi?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 43550
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2014!
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #64 on: April 01, 2022, 01:29:21 PM »
How long is this?  Is this one of those six episode arcs?   I should watch it at some point.

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30753
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #65 on: April 01, 2022, 01:44:04 PM »
How long is this?  Is this one of those six episode arcs?   I should watch it at some point.
Nine episodes, and absolutely brutal.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12827
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2022, 02:26:47 PM »
How long is this?  Is this one of those six episode arcs?   I should watch it at some point.

9, as Barto said.  And, yeah, you really should. 

I thought the final episode was awful, though, and the idea that that they wrapped up all the lose ends baffles me. The final showdown with the squid game was exactly how it should have ended, but they added a pointless, and honestly stupid plot twist rather than answering questions they spent half the series asking. Making Old Guy the Host was silly and unnecessary. Not to mention that he was far more interesting as Player 001, and going out the way he was presumed to have. Leaving the Host unknown would have been just fine--it was a question that didn't need answering. Why the Front Man was the cop's brother, and what their story was actually did need to be addressed. I had assumed early on the Front Man was a previous winner, but since they pointed out that the cop's brother only disappeared a few days earlier, there was no reason to connect the two. I understand why they added the cop to the series, they wanted to show some of the behind the scenes goings on, but the lack of an ending to that, in favor of a silly plot twist was a real injustice, I think. And since the writer/director/creator wasn't considering a sequel at that point, he doesn't have that as an excuse.

Not sure what you mean by the bolded.  What questions? 

Otherwise, as to the specific details you mention, I think we are talking about two different concepts.  I am saying that, whenever they dropped something on you in the show, they came back later and addressed/resolved it rather than leave it dangling.  You seem to be saying, "the way they addressed things left me wanting, and they did X when they should have done Y."  And that's fine.  You are entitled to your opinion, obviously.  But to me, that's just Monday morning quarterbacking and doesn't really get us anywhere other than the serious would have subjectively satisfied you personally if they would have done some things differently that better suited your tases.  And, again, that's fine.  That's where a lot of the fun discussion happens.  But I was only addressing the more objective point of the fact that it was good writing in terms of not leaving loose threads needlessly dangling (other than those they chose to leave dangling for future seasons, which isn't "needlessly" dangling).

For some of the other stuff you mentioned:

Subtitled:  Yeah, not my favorite either, but with films that aren't done in one's native language, what are you gonna do?  I actually wasn't paying attention and didn't realize there was a subtitled option when I started watching, and I ended up watching the English dubbed version.  Both have their drawbacks.  Dubs are inferior because, at best, the voiceovers often fail to convey a lot of what was done in the original language.  At worst, they can take you out of the moment for a variety of reasons.  I think the dubs on this series touched both ends of the spectrum.   But to me, one of the biggest drawbacks of subtitles is that if you are busy reading subtitled, you miss a lot of facial expressions, paralanguage, and other stuff going on onscreen that is important or, at least, sometimes adds an extra layer of emotion that you miss because you just don't see it while you are reading.  Both are problematic. 

I'm on the fence about whether the bully getting to change the marble game partway through was "inconsistent."  There were a number of times throughout the games when there were ways to win that seemed to violate the spirit of the game, but didn't technically break the stated rules, and were allowed.  I think that came out quite a bit in the "honeycomb" game.  The stated rule was to get the shape out of the wafer without breaking the shape.  The assumption was: use your needle and nothing else.  But we instead saw many variations that did not violate the stated rule that ended up really leaving the interpretation of the rule as:  "get the shape out of the wafer without breaking the shape, and we don't care in the slightest how that ends up happening as long as you don't break the shape."  That was an example very early on of "if it isn't expressly stated in the rules, it's probably fair game."  In marbles, you pretty much just had to agree on a game and then take your opponent's marbles by any means other than force.  Arguably, the bully and his crony were no longer in agreement on the game, so it was fair play for them to have to mutually agree on a different one.  And arguably, that's similar to what Sang Woo and Ali did in abandoning their wagering game before the final wager (the difference being, of course, that although they were agreeing to a different "game," Ali didn't understand the game that was being played).  What actually bugged me a bit more along the lines you mentioned was the Front Man turning out the lights during the bridge game.  To me, that actually seemed more inconsistent with how they were going things.  But I guess he was more responding to the customer relations issue at that point of the VIPs not liking that one of the players figured out a workaround. 
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30753
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2022, 03:04:10 PM »
Not sure what you mean by the bolded.  What questions? 

Otherwise, as to the specific details you mention, I think we are talking about two different concepts.  I am saying that, whenever they dropped something on you in the show, they came back later and addressed/resolved it rather than leave it dangling.  You seem to be saying, "the way they addressed things left me wanting, and they did X when they should have done Y."  And that's fine.  You are entitled to your opinion, obviously.  But to me, that's just Monday morning quarterbacking and doesn't really get us anywhere other than the serious would have subjectively satisfied you personally if they would have done some things differently that better suited your tases.  And, again, that's fine.  That's where a lot of the fun discussion happens.  But I was only addressing the more objective point of the fact that it was good writing in terms of not leaving loose threads needlessly dangling (other than those they chose to leave dangling for future seasons, which isn't "needlessly" dangling).
Not really. I think they spent half of the series setting up a story with the cop and never provided any real resolution. In fact, they merely created more questions. Even if you just want to boil it down to "Brother Front Man won and Brother Cop died," even that creates problems. There's an issue with timing insofar as BFM. There's the ambiguous death of BC. There's the matter of why the cops didn't respond, despite the disappearance of two of their own, and an easily tracebable phone call from one of them in distress (doesn't matter if the videos went through or not). While I liked the writing, too, BC was a plot device that was merely abandoned after it served its purpose with no real resolution.

And I'm pretty sure the possibility of a sequel was never a consideration during the writing process.

Quote
I'm on the fence about whether the bully getting to change the marble game partway through was "inconsistent."  There were a number of times throughout the games when there were ways to win that seemed to violate the spirit of the game, but didn't technically break the stated rules, and were allowed.  I think that came out quite a bit in the "honeycomb" game.  The stated rule was to get the shape out of the wafer without breaking the shape.  The assumption was: use your needle and nothing else.  But we instead saw many variations that did not violate the stated rule that ended up really leaving the interpretation of the rule as:  "get the shape out of the wafer without breaking the shape, and we don't care in the slightest how that ends up happening as long as you don't break the shape."  That was an example very early on of "if it isn't expressly stated in the rules, it's probably fair game."  In marbles, you pretty much just had to agree on a game and then take your opponent's marbles by any means other than force.  Arguably, the bully and his crony were no longer in agreement on the game, so it was fair play for them to have to mutually agree on a different one.  And arguably, that's similar to what Sang Woo and Ali did in abandoning their wagering game before the final wager (the difference being, of course, that although they were agreeing to a different "game," Ali didn't understand the game that was being played).  What actually bugged me a bit more along the lines you mentioned was the Front Man turning out the lights during the bridge game.  To me, that actually seemed more inconsistent with how they were going things.  But I guess he was more responding to the customer relations issue at that point of the VIPs not liking that one of the players figured out a workaround. 
Was there ever an example of a Triangle (I said Circle earlier, but it was a Triangle) interacting with a player? A big part of what made them menacing was their obstinate silence. I was actually shocked when one answered his question. They made a point to establish very rigid roles with ops, enforcers, and managers. Triangle had no business making that call, in large part because of the fact that it was dubious, at the very least. And while I get that there's ambiguity in how the players resolve the games, that was cut and dry. Bully agreed to the game and his suddenly ballsy lackey did not agree to change the game.

And I agree that turning the lights off was also questionable, but as you said, that may have just been a fix for an unforeseen problem. However, Front Man did specifically point out that one of them was a professional glass maker and it was documented in his background report. In any case, that one didn't bug me as much as the Marble thing and fragging the girl when the bridge exploded.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Online cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34448
  • Gender: Male
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2022, 05:48:44 PM »
And I'm pretty sure the possibility of a sequel was never a consideration during the writing process.

I find this hard to believe though.  For one, because of how the story played out leaving a little more to be desired, specifically about BC.  I know the show wasn't renewed until after it went viral so it was never written in stone that there would be more, but I think the writer had to sprinkle some things in just in case there was a future.  If the show never got a follow up, I think the story was closed enough to be a fine ending but a few extra question marks for a follow up seems to have been in place.  Just my thought, I haven't read anything to confirm or deny that thought.

Online El Barto

  • Rascal Atheistic Pig
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 30753
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Squid Game
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2022, 06:10:28 PM »
And I'm pretty sure the possibility of a sequel was never a consideration during the writing process.

I find this hard to believe though.  For one, because of how the story played out leaving a little more to be desired, specifically about BC.  I know the show wasn't renewed until after it went viral so it was never written in stone that there would be more, but I think the writer had to sprinkle some things in just in case there was a future.  If the show never got a follow up, I think the story was closed enough to be a fine ending but a few extra question marks for a follow up seems to have been in place.  Just my thought, I haven't read anything to confirm or deny that thought.
Hwang has said he wasn't writing it with a sequel in mind. For one thing he had no idea it was going to be so popular. Also, apparently the writing/producing/directing process was so grueling it was all he could do to make the first one. At the same time he did say he left a thread or two dangling in the finale, just in case. So I guess that is an excuse for the ending, albeit not a particularly satisfying one. For the time being he has no desire to jump back into it.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson