Your favorite 20+ minute epic?

[darkshade]

Supper's Ready is awesome, but I'd be shocked if Tim liked it. 

I actually think that is one of the more unique prog epics, structurally.  Not many others have the same structure that one has (trying to think of another 20-minute rock epic that kicks off with singing the instant the song begins).

The Gates of Delirium is another with a really unique structure.  The song basically climaxes about 2/3 of the way through, instead of near or at the end, and the rest of the song is the calm aftermath.

TFK's "Love Is The Only Answer" from The Sum of No Evil begins with vocals right off the bat.

[Cool Chris]

So, took my car in today and knew it would be a while, so brought my headphones. Decided to check out Supper's Ready. The music at the beginning was alright, though it's not really my bag, then I remembered a big reason I don't like Genesis. The vocals. After a minute or two, I distinctly remember a line "supper is waiting for you.." I fell asleep. I am not kidding, I crashed out in the lobby of the Honda service department. Not for long, I woke up around the 18 minute mark, but I was definitely asleep for a good portion of the song.

[jammindude]

So, took my car in today and knew it would be a while, so brought my headphones. Decided to check out Supper's Ready. The music at the beginning was alright, though it's not really my bag, then I remembered a big reason I don't like Genesis. The vocals. After a minute or two, I distinctly remember a line "supper is waiting for you.." I fell asleep. I am not kidding, I crashed out in the lobby of the Honda service department. Not for long, I woke up around the 18 minute mark, but I was definitely asleep for a good portion of the song.

So…wait…that means you were awake for the apocalypse section…….





…..and failed to even mention it?


I don’t think we can be friends anymore.



 

[Cool Chris]

I was a little disoriented, you know that feeling when you wake up and it takes you a minute to realize where the heck you are. And this was compounded by me having to find my phone to figure out what the heck I was listening to.

[jammindude]

But on top of that, you slept through the Willow Farm section.  I’m not sure which is worse.

[Zydar]

"A flower...?"

[wolfking]

So, took my car in today and knew it would be a while, so brought my headphones. Decided to check out Supper's Ready. The music at the beginning was alright, though it's not really my bag, then I remembered a big reason I don't like Genesis. The vocals. After a minute or two, I distinctly remember a line "supper is waiting for you.." I fell asleep. I am not kidding, I crashed out in the lobby of the Honda service department. Not for long, I woke up around the 18 minute mark, but I was definitely asleep for a good portion of the song.

Lol, it's only 23 minutes.  That second half reads like you slept through Light of Day, Darkness of Darkness or something. 

[DTA]

Probably Stardust We Are by The Flower Kings

Also a great choice, and probably my favorite TFK epic, unless we can also count "I Am The Sun", which, when blended back together into one piece, reaches 25:23.

I know I named like a dozen in my reply, it's just really hard to narrow it down to one. 

-Marc.

It could honestly be a three way tie between SWA, I Am The Sun, and Garden of Dreams but SWA is the one that feels most like one cohesive song. Roine's epics during that time were just outstanding.

[PixelDream]

Dream Theater - Octavarium
Dream Theater - A Change of Seasons
Symphony X - The Odyssey

[KevShmev]

It could honestly be a three way tie between SWA, I Am The Sun, and Garden of Dreams but SWA is the one that feels most like one cohesive song. Roine's epics during that time were just outstanding.

True, but I don't count I Am the Sun as one song since it is two (similar to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and In the Presence of Enemies), and Garden of Dreams is similar to The Whirlwind in that it is a suite containing a bunch of songs that all work together rather than being a single song.  Granted, a suite can be considered an epic, so it works for the purposes of this thread, but I tried to keep mine solely on single songs (if it wasn't a single track on its original album, I don't consider it a single song).

[jammindude]

It could honestly be a three way tie between SWA, I Am The Sun, and Garden of Dreams but SWA is the one that feels most like one cohesive song. Roine's epics during that time were just outstanding.

True, but I don't count I Am the Sun as one song since it is two (similar to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and In the Presence of Enemies), and Garden of Dreams is similar to The Whirlwind in that it is a suite containing a bunch of songs that all work together rather than being a single song.  Granted, a suite can be considered an epic, so it works for the purposes of this thread, but I tried to keep mine solely on single songs (if it wasn't a single track on its original album, I don't consider it a single song).

Even if it was originally purposed as a single song and subsequently performed as a single song when played live? (Thinking of ITPOE specifically)

[TheCountOfNYC]

Octavarium no question.

[KevShmev]

It could honestly be a three way tie between SWA, I Am The Sun, and Garden of Dreams but SWA is the one that feels most like one cohesive song. Roine's epics during that time were just outstanding.

True, but I don't count I Am the Sun as one song since it is two (similar to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and In the Presence of Enemies), and Garden of Dreams is similar to The Whirlwind in that it is a suite containing a bunch of songs that all work together rather than being a single song.  Granted, a suite can be considered an epic, so it works for the purposes of this thread, but I tried to keep mine solely on single songs (if it wasn't a single track on its original album, I don't consider it a single song).

Even if it was originally purposed as a single song and subsequently performed as a single song when played live? (Thinking of ITPOE specifically)

Not even then, no.  If something is separated on the album in two (or more) songs, then it becomes two (or more) songs.  I know some fans have this fascination with trying to combine everything they can because it's cute to make a song seem as long as possible (I have seen a few Neal Morse fans try to say that Similitude and The Great Adventure is really just one long 3-hour song ), but I do not subscribe to that newsletter anymore (I did at one point ).

[The Letter M]

It could honestly be a three way tie between SWA, I Am The Sun, and Garden of Dreams but SWA is the one that feels most like one cohesive song. Roine's epics during that time were just outstanding.

True, but I don't count I Am the Sun as one song since it is two (similar to Shine On You Crazy Diamond and In the Presence of Enemies), and Garden of Dreams is similar to The Whirlwind in that it is a suite containing a bunch of songs that all work together rather than being a single song.  Granted, a suite can be considered an epic, so it works for the purposes of this thread, but I tried to keep mine solely on single songs (if it wasn't a single track on its original album, I don't consider it a single song).

Even if it was originally purposed as a single song and subsequently performed as a single song when played live? (Thinking of ITPOE specifically)

Not even then, no.  If something is separated on the album in two (or more) songs, then it becomes two (or more) songs.  I know some fans have this fascination with trying to combine everything they can because it's cute to make a song seem as long as possible (I have seen a few Neal Morse fans try to say that Similitude and The Great Adventure is really just one long 3-hour song ), but I do not subscribe to that newsletter anymore (I did at one point ).

I would say, if a piece if written (and maybe recorded) as a single piece, it's a single song, regardless of how it is indexed or tracked on the album. What about epic songs that are indexed into several pieces on the album, even though they are all clearly part of a single piece (Spock's Beard's "The Healing Colors Of Sound", Haken's "Messiah Complex", Liquid Tension Experiment's "Three Minute Warning", the longer pieces on Marillion's FEAR album, The Tangent's "In Darkest Dreams" and "The Music That Died Alone" from thei debut)?

I personally make a distinction between SONGS and TRACKS.  A song can be divided into multiple tracks, but still remain a singular piece, just indexed in a way to allow fans to jump to certain parts of the song without having to scroll through the whole song. But multiple tracks aren't necessarily always a single song, like medleys like the aforementioned (most of) Side 2 of Abbey Road, or album-length suites/song cycles (Neal Morse's ?, Porcupine Tree's The Incident). It's really down to the artists' intent, and whether or not they meant for the piece(s) to be consider a singular song or not, but I can understand that some folks can see that as a subjective issue rather than an objective one where the fans can interpret these things in their own ways.

-Marc.

[KevShmev]

No, because almost all concept albums are written to be a single piece of music (cohesively), and taking every concept album and saying each is one song would be, well, dumb.

Three Minute Warning is an improv jam, not a written song, so I view that a bit differently.

Messiah Complex and Healing Colors of Sounds are suites, meaning they are a bunch of songs that comprise a suite.  Same goes for most of Side 2 of Abbey Road.

[The Letter M]

No, because almost all concept albums are written to be a single piece of music (cohesively), and taking every concept album and saying each is one song would be, well, dumb.

Three Minute Warning is an improv jam, not a written song, so I view that a bit different.

Messiah Complex and Healing Colors of Sounds are suites, meaning they are a bunch of songs that comprise a suite.  Same goes for most of Side 2 of Abbey Road.

So I guess you subscribe to the idea of "death of the author", or musical artist in this context, wherein your view of their music takes precedence over the artists' intentions of their own music, that is, if they say a group of pieces comprises a song (like Mike Portnoy says "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is a song).

Also, with regards to concept albums - I don't think they could ever be considered a single song, but can be considered a single piece of music. I think of things like multi-movement symphonies, with each movement can be a stand-alone "song" but they're all part of the larger piece as a whole. I don't think I've ever really called a whole concept *album* a song before, with perhaps the sole exception being "The Whirlwind" by Transatlantic, or where the whole album was just a single piece of music anyway (Echolyn's Mei, which isn't even indexed into movements, it's just one 49-minute track).

At some point, though, it's all semantics and a bit pointless, especially relating to this specific thread about "20+ minute epics". I think most prog fans have their own personal definitions of epics and what makes a song epic, what makes a piece of music a song rather than a medley or a suite, and we could be here all day debating which artists and pieces of music are songs or suites, not even factoring in popular consensus on what makes a piece an epic, a song, or a suite (as some might not even call "2112" by Rush a song since there are gaps between some of the movements where the band stops and starts, rather than being a cross-faded/segued collection of movements as many popular prog epics are).

-Marc.

[Cool Chris]

If something is separated on the album in two (or more) songs, then it becomes two (or more) songs. 

This.

[KevShmev]

So I guess you subscribe to the idea of "death of the author", or musical artist in this context, wherein your view of their music takes precedence over the artists' intentions of their own music, that is, if they say a group of pieces comprises a song (like Mike Portnoy says "Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence" is a song).
 

No, I just think certain things can be open to interpretation, regardless of the intent of the artist.  What if Neal Morse came out tomorrow and said, "The NMB song Not Afraid Part 2 was written to be a jazz fusion song and we consider it one."  Does that then make it a jazz fusion song because he says that was their intention?  Apples and oranges perhaps, but often times with art, the artist creates it and puts it out there for the public, who then decides what it is and what it means.  And that applies to labels.  Jon Anderson has said Yes was "adventurous rock," but the public, by and large, has decided that Yes is progressive rock, so they are considered progressive rock despite Jon Anderson insisting that their intent was not to make what is viewed as progressive rock.  Does that make sense?

Also, with regards to concept albums - I don't think they could ever be considered a single song, but can be considered a single piece of music. I think of things like multi-movement symphonies, with each movement can be a stand-alone "song" but they're all part of the larger piece as a whole. I don't think I've ever really called a whole concept *album* a song before, with perhaps the sole exception being "The Whirlwind" by Transatlantic, or where the whole album was just a single piece of music anyway (Echolyn's Mei, which isn't even indexed into movements, it's just one 49-minute track).

Well, sure. Songs that comprise the single piece that is a concept album are likes a bunch of scenes that make up a film.  We wouldn't watch a film and say the entire film is one scene, so it doesn't make sense to do it with a concept or thematic album where all of the songs are clearly defined.

At some point, though, it's all semantics and a bit pointless, especially relating to this specific thread about "20+ minute epics". I think most prog fans have their own personal definitions of epics and what makes a song epic, what makes a piece of music a song rather than a medley or a suite, and we could be here all day debating which artists and pieces of music are songs or suites, not even factoring in popular consensus on what makes a piece an epic, a song, or a suite (as some might not even call "2112" by Rush a song since there are gaps between some of the movements where the band stops and starts, rather than being a cross-faded/segued collection of movements as many popular prog epics are).

Semantics and a bit pointless, yes, but this is DTF after all.

As for 2112, I view that song as having different chapters, where the stops and starts are like watching it on a TV on a main TV to where when each part ends, the TV within the TV turns off and the camera moves over to the next TV, which turns on and the next part begins.  It gives it a very cinematic feel.

[pg1067]

Other than the DT tracks, and 2112, I've never heard anything else listed. I have heard Shine On Your Crazy Diamond.


WTF is the Abbey Road medley? Is that the Beatles album with the spaces deleted?

It refers to side 2 of abbey road, which is continuous

It's not the entirety of side 2.  Here Comes the Sun and Because are not part of the medley.

Yes has done that with a few of their epics...Rituals and The Ancient kind of run the same gamut. Just as Gates ends with Soon, Rituals ending with Nous Somme du Soleil and Ancient ending with Leaves of Green. All of them are brilliant fucking songs, all endings are Jon Anderson at his finest. Was blessed to have seen all three live in one show.

Ritual (no "s").

[darkshade]

What if Octavarium was split into 5 tracks, would you still consider it one song? I feel like indexing is pointless as the long pieces like Garden of Dreams or Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence are meant to be listened to from beginning to end, just like a 20-30 minute epic, it's just those epics are 40-60 minutes. Jams, improvisations, etc.. no matter the length, should be one track. Plus it's better for shuffling purposes that way.

[425]

I've long ago resolve to just agree to disagree with Kev on this one, but it's worth raising the following as a thought experiment: How would some of these epics be done if it was possible to include "subdivisions" of a particular track? Like, if there was some added feature in music players that enabled "bookmarks" to be placed in certain songs, such that, say, 2112 is still a single listing on the album and plays as a single track with a 20:33 runtime, but there was also a place where you could select to go straight to 6:45, the beginning of "III. Discovery," etc. I think in that circumstance there's little question that SDOIT and The Whirlwind would be listed as single tracks, because MP has been pretty clear about the fact that he only split them up for ease of access.

Another interesting case is Coldplay's album Viva La Vida, where multiple tracks have two distinct songs inhabiting a single track. Like, a song plays, it ends, there's silence, and then a different song plays. The band regards each of these instances as being two distinct songs. But they included them on one track in each case as part of some artistic statement or something that is not very clear to me.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

The only correct answer is Devil Doll - The Sacrilege of Fatal Arms

And I'm not being completely facetious. It is a fantastic song, but a lot to take in at 79 minutes.

[SoundscapeMN]

It's not my favorite, but I'm surprised no mention of

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness

[lonestar]

I love how every thread about epics devolves into what constitutes an epic.


*waits for pg1607 to correct something about this post*

[wolfking]

It's not my favorite, but I'm surprised no mention of

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness

3rd post in the thread;

DT - 8VM
DT - ACOS

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness
Edge of Sanity - Crimson
Edge of Sanity - Crimson 2
Insomnium - Winters Gate

[Elite]

I love how every thread about epics devolves into what constitutes an epic.

As it should be!





I also find it curious that the WildRanger himself hasn't even answered his own question/

[wolfking]

I also find it curious that the WildRanger himself hasn't even answered his own question/

Is this your first Wildranger thread?

[Elite]

Objectively, no

[romdrums]

Objectively, no

[Stadler]

I've long ago resolve to just agree to disagree with Kev on this one, but it's worth raising the following as a thought experiment: How would some of these epics be done if it was possible to include "subdivisions" of a particular track? Like, if there was some added feature in music players that enabled "bookmarks" to be placed in certain songs, such that, say, 2112 is still a single listing on the album and plays as a single track with a 20:33 runtime, but there was also a place where you could select to go straight to 6:45, the beginning of "III. Discovery," etc. I think in that circumstance there's little question that SDOIT and The Whirlwind would be listed as single tracks, because MP has been pretty clear about the fact that he only split them up for ease of access.

CD players used to do this, it was called "indexing".  I'm trying to remember which disks had that, but my first CD player - a Technics - allowed me to select the indexes.

[SoundscapeMN]

It's not my favorite, but I'm surprised no mention of

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness

3rd post in the thread;

DT - 8VM
DT - ACOS

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness
Edge of Sanity - Crimson
Edge of Sanity - Crimson 2
Insomnium - Winters Gate

I must have scrolled down too fast when reading this topic , sorry about that.
Did I miss any others posts with it?

[jingle.boy]

Yes

Well, 8vm is my favourite song of all time, so there’s that.

I’ll chime back in later with some honorable mentions, the biggest of which (naturally) will be Light of Day, Day of Darkness.

[wolfking]

It's not my favorite, but I'm surprised no mention of

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness

3rd post in the thread;

DT - 8VM
DT - ACOS

Green Carnation - Light of Day, Day of Darkness
Edge of Sanity - Crimson
Edge of Sanity - Crimson 2
Insomnium - Winters Gate

I must have scrolled down too fast when reading this topic , sorry about that.
Did I miss any others posts with it?

Haha, as Chad pointed out, yes.

[King Puppies and the Acid Guppies]

The thing about Light of Day, Day of Darkness is it's good and I like it, but it isn't amazing or anything. I think it gets way more acclaim than it's entitled to.

[wolfking]

The thing about Light of Day, Day of Darkness is it's good and I like it, but it isn't amazing or anything. I think it gets way more acclaim than it's entitled to.

Made my top 20.  One of the most exceptional things I've ever heard.  I can understand it's not for everyone though.