A VIEW FROM THE TOP OF THE WORLD - DTHQ Interview part 3 AVAILABLE NOW!!!

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I believe they also wanted more 'direct' and shorter songs on DT12 too...obviously excluding IT.

Also glad to see them ditch that limitation this time around, as much as I love DOT.

[Architeuthis]

I liked part 2 way better,  they're definitely enjoying being there more at this point.  It would have been perfect if John Myung would've had a unplugged bass in his hands to noodle around on while the other guys are doing all the talking..  😁

[Ben_Jamin]

I can hear what JR was saying about Vibe. As I said with The Alien, it sounds like the entire setlist of Distant Memories thrown in a blender and made this awesome smoothie.

[Kotowboy]

So happy they chose to lift that restriction which caused them to write exclusively shorter songs. I hope they don't ever decide to reincorporate it

i'd much rather they write exactly as the song needs and not RESTRICT themselves to We're a Prog Band - every song must be ten minutes long.

[erwinrafael]

Personally, I think they needed that "restriction" at the time because endless noodling became a crutch. They needed to relearn prioritizing writing a good song first instead of letting their virtuosity carry the song.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I was at the gym earlier and had a listen to Nightmare and Count and was reminded how those songs could be trimmed due to the pointless noodling. I know JP is an amazing riff generator, but do we really need that many different sections in the 2nd half of the song?

[Kotowboy]

Personally, I think they needed that "restriction" at the time because endless noodling became a crutch. They needed to relearn prioritizing writing a good song first instead of letting their virtuosity carry the song.

I love DT and Distance Over Time ( and Astonishing ) because there's no regular song over 10 minutes. Apart from the epic obviously.

They're much easier to just throw on and pick a song. With Black Clouds it's more like " well I dont fancy a 10 minute song which leaves the two normal length songs

and i'm not in the mood for either of them..."

[geeeemo]

I prefer the epics and longer songs. I have a playlist with just those and I probably listen to that the most or my live DT playlist. The noodling for me is part of Dream Theater's DNA.

[Kotowboy]

Regarding the 2nd verse thing: it’s one of the things I like most about DT, and one of my few complaints about a band like Metallica that NEVER vary anything between the 2 or 3 verses.

Nobody said you have to...

Although when Kirk solos over a verse - chorus - the riffage is usually a little different underneath.

[erwinrafael]

I prefer the epics and longer songs. I have a playlist with just those and I probably listen to that the most or my live DT playlist. The noodling for me is part of Dream Theater's DNA.

There is Fatal Tragedy type of noodling but then there is alao the Endless Sacrifice type.

[nikatapi]

@noxon, @bosk, any idea when the promo copies will start to be distributed? When can we expect to see reviews coming out for the album?

[Kotowboy]

Guessing in October ? This Friday ? 3 weeks before the album is out ?


Reviews are just one persons tastes and opinions anyway. Has anyone ever NOT bought an album after it got bad reviews?

[bosk1]

@noxon, @bosk, any idea when the promo copies will start to be distributed? When can we expect to see reviews coming out for the album?

I am working with someone behind the scenes on that very issue.  Not sure at the moment.

[Architeuthis]

Guessing in October ? This Friday ? 3 weeks before the album is out ?


Reviews are just one persons tastes and opinions anyway. Has anyone ever NOT bought an album after it got bad reviews?

Usually the albums that get bad reviews are the ones I end up liking the most.

[Kotowboy]

Exactly. usually its cause it's different and not what the reviewer WANTED.

Saint Anger actually got rave reviews for being so bizarre.

in 1996 - Every review for Bryan Adams 18 Til I Die was scathing. Like - same old rock n roll crap...

But I love that album to death.

[Kyo]

@noxon, @bosk, any idea when the promo copies will start to be distributed? When can we expect to see reviews coming out for the album?

Promos have been out for a while. Online reviews aren't supposed to be published until 10 days before the official release, so October 12.

[Glasser]

@noxon, @bosk, any idea when the promo copies will start to be distributed? When can we expect to see reviews coming out for the album?

Promos have been out for a while. Online reviews aren't supposed to be published until 10 days before the official release, so October 12.

I'm pretty sure Kevin at PFA and the Sony guys are sending them based on print or website, how long the publication has been around etc.....

[Wim Kruithof]

I can hear what JR was saying about Vibe. As I said with The Alien, it sounds like the entire setlist of Distant Memories thrown in a blender and made this awesome smoothie.

You point my vision here perfectly. Feels same way for me as well, the energy this far is overwhelming...

[darkshade]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

[rab7]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

[Glasser]

Part 2 was great Mancini seems like such a fun and positive dude! But i wish there was a part 3 where we could just listen to JM’s thoughts. 

[darkshade]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

[jonny108]

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

ACOS has Another World did it not? I'd class that as a middle soft section. I think it's already been said on AVFTTOTW won't be an ambient section, just a gentler moment from all the intensity.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Why does the middle section in Count work but not IT? Count has over 3 minutes of nothing but volume swells...doesn't go anywhere and asks the audience to stay tuned for an awfully long time. The orchestral section in IT at least has some form and tension/release.

Count has a smoother exit, but that's about it. If I saw them play that song live I would get a beer at the concession stand during the ambient middle.

[Ben_Jamin]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

This is what I am thinking that the section might sound like. I also feel like they're describing it like the middle section of At Wit's End, or something like Medicate. I am not expecting an ambient type of stop to the flow of the epic, but I am expecting something like these types of "relief" sections that still progress the song while allowing the band to rest.

[jayvee3]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

Well, both of those sorta do actually. A Change of Seasons has “Another World/The Inevitable Summer" section, having a solid breather before “The Crimson Sunset” finale, and Octavarium actually has the longest ambient section out of any of the epics by far, clocking in at nearly 4 minutes - it is just placed at the very beginning of the song…

[darkshade]

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

ACOS has Another World did it not? I'd class that as a middle soft section. I think it's already been said on AVFTTOTW won't be an ambient section, just a gentler moment from all the intensity.

Another World isn't what I'm talking about. That's still a full band section, and isn't static in mood. I'm not saying epics shouldn't have different sections that add to the dynamics of the piece.
I'm talking about having a middle section to "give the band a chance to catch their breath" for the sake of it, which IT seems to be, and to a lesser extent, TCOT except I don't find it to be that so much because the remainder of TCOT after the ambient section is still softer and builds up to a crescendo. IT just feels like they stuck that ambient and orchestral sections in the middle of a rockin' piece of music, and I don't feel the power and emotion of the ending since I don't think it was 'earned'.

[darkshade]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

Well, both of those sorta do actually. A Change of Seasons has “The Inevitable Summer" section, having a solid breather before “The Crimson Sunset” finale, and Octavarium actually has the longest ambient section out of any of the epics by far, clocking in at nearly 4 minutes - it is just placed at the very beginning of the song,,,

but we're talking about a softer section in the middle of an epic, which obviously isn't what Octavarium does, as that piece is basically one 20-minute crescendo that peaks with "trapped inside this Octavarium!" with the final minutes being the grand finale, with one final peak reprising the Someone Like Him theme at the very end (it's giving me chills just thinking about it)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

JP mentions the middle section of AVFTTOTW is its own section, providing relief from the more metal section.

I hope it's not another Illumination Theory thing. The Count Of Tuscany one worked, so I hope this one does as well.

ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...

You could tell how the AVFTTOTW section will sound like just by vague descriptors?

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

I would say the long ambient sections where almost nothing is happening harmonically and a guitar--whether it be through volume swells or any other means-- is just snaking around aimlessly are played out. If the band can find a way to have these 'breaks' from all the riffage stay engaging (I think IT is, though I do sometimes skip it) then I think a super long song will be a success. With Octavarium you are waiting an egregious amount of time before the song gets moving on the runway. I find it super tough to do those sections without making them sound like wallpaper.

[darkshade]

Well, the intro to Octavarium and the middle section of TCOT is not aimless noodling. They both showcase some of their respective pieces main themes.
If you don't like Pink Floyd or ambient music, then I guess you could see it as "aimless".

but I agree that an ambient middle section in the middle of a rock or metal song or epic, is played out.

[jonny108]

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

ACOS has Another World did it not? I'd class that as a middle soft section. I think it's already been said on AVFTTOTW won't be an ambient section, just a gentler moment from all the intensity.

Another World isn't what I'm talking about. That's still a full band section, and isn't static in mood. I'm not saying epics shouldn't have different sections that add to the dynamics of the piece.
I'm talking about having a middle section to "give the band a chance to catch their breath" for the sake of it, which IT seems to be, and to a lesser extent, TCOT except I don't find it to be that so much because the remainder of TCOT after the ambient section is still softer and builds up to a crescendo. IT just feels like they stuck that ambient and orchestral sections in the middle of a rockin' piece of music, and I don't feel the power and emotion of the ending since I don't think it was 'earned'.

Ok, I get that. In response to your point, "ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...". I meant specifically for the next epic that's not the plan. It's actual music being played (just softer than the rest of the piece) not just pads and birds and random stuff.

[darkshade]

No, but the whole "middle softer (often ambient-like) section of a grand epic" has been played out, and not just by DT.
That's what makes Octavarium and ACOS more special, those epics don't do that.
What I like about ANTR is the middle section "Beautiful Agony" is its own section of music, and keeps the momentum going, and not just the 'relief' for the band.
Same with Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (Goodnight Kiss)
Softer middle section worked in Close To The Edge, but that doesn't mean it's necessary in every other epic.

ACOS has Another World did it not? I'd class that as a middle soft section. I think it's already been said on AVFTTOTW won't be an ambient section, just a gentler moment from all the intensity.

Another World isn't what I'm talking about. That's still a full band section, and isn't static in mood. I'm not saying epics shouldn't have different sections that add to the dynamics of the piece.
I'm talking about having a middle section to "give the band a chance to catch their breath" for the sake of it, which IT seems to be, and to a lesser extent, TCOT except I don't find it to be that so much because the remainder of TCOT after the ambient section is still softer and builds up to a crescendo. IT just feels like they stuck that ambient and orchestral sections in the middle of a rockin' piece of music, and I don't feel the power and emotion of the ending since I don't think it was 'earned'.

Ok, I get that. In response to your point, "ugh, unfortunately, that's what it sounds like...". I meant specifically for the next epic that's not the plan. It's actual music being played (just softer than the rest of the piece) not just pads and birds and random stuff.

Hopefully you are right. We'll find out soon enough.
As I stated in the thread about epics in GMD, not every epic needs to use Close to the Edge as a blueprint for an epic piece of music. CttE does the middle ambient section thing, but to great effect (and Yes was possibly the first band to write an epic with the song structure that CttE has)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Well, the intro to Octavarium and the middle section of TCOT is not aimless noodling. They both showcase some of their respective pieces main themes.
If you don't like Pink Floyd or ambient music, then I guess you could see it as "aimless".

but I agree that an ambient middle section in the middle of a rock or metal song or epic, is played out.

I do like some ambient sections here and there and I do like my Pink Floyd, though they can be guilty of this too: if it's more than a minute, and the harmony isn't doing anything, the melody is going nowhere, the rhythm section is taking a break or on loop, I think the song is entering snooze territory with very rare exceptions. I just find 3 minutes of that to be insane.

[darkshade]

Well, the intro to Octavarium and the middle section of TCOT is not aimless noodling. They both showcase some of their respective pieces main themes.
If you don't like Pink Floyd or ambient music, then I guess you could see it as "aimless".

but I agree that an ambient middle section in the middle of a rock or metal song or epic, is played out.

I do like some ambient sections here and there and I do like my Pink Floyd, though they can be guilty of this too: if it's more than a minute, and the harmony isn't doing anything, the melody is going nowhere, the rhythm section is taking a break or on loop, I think the song is entering snooze territory with very rare exceptions. I just find 3 minutes of that to be insane.

I don't, I think it's perfect, and sets up the next section well, and the entire 8vm piece is one big crescendo, so starting out ambient makes the most sense.
I also don't think the first several minutes of PF's Shine On You Crazy Diamond is too long, either. It all works for me.

However, I do think the ambient section is way too long in IT, but I also think that entire epic is a compositional mess.
I think the context of the piece is what makes an ambient section work in songs like this.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Well, the intro to Octavarium and the middle section of TCOT is not aimless noodling. They both showcase some of their respective pieces main themes.
If you don't like Pink Floyd or ambient music, then I guess you could see it as "aimless".

but I agree that an ambient middle section in the middle of a rock or metal song or epic, is played out.

I do like some ambient sections here and there and I do like my Pink Floyd, though they can be guilty of this too: if it's more than a minute, and the harmony isn't doing anything, the melody is going nowhere, the rhythm section is taking a break or on loop, I think the song is entering snooze territory with very rare exceptions. I just find 3 minutes of that to be insane.

I don't, I think it's perfect, and sets up the next section well, and the entire 8vm piece is one big crescendo, so starting out ambient makes the most sense.
I also don't think the first several minutes of PF's Shine On You Crazy Diamond is too long, either. It all works for me.

However, I do think the ambient section is way too long in IT, but I also think that entire epic is a compositional mess.
I think the context of the piece is what makes an ambient section work in songs like this.

Why do you think IT is a 'compositional mess' if you don't mind my asking? Seems like a somewhat extreme thing to say.

EDIT: I should mention I agree the placement of the Octavarium ambient section makes more conventional sense and the transition into the next section  is way smoother vs IT. As you say, 8VM is one big crescendo. I was originally only referring to what happens inside those 3:30-4m (both sections are similar in length).