Dream Theater for the rest of your life. The 90's vs the 00's vs the 10's

[Trav86]

Yeah, every time I listen to Systematic Chaos I’m like “oh yeah, this album is really good”. Then I get to Repentance and I’m out. From then on it’s a drag. First half good, second half is meh.

I only love half of Octavarium as well, but it’s spread out. It’s like every other song is great.

[Kotowboy]

I haven't listened in ages but I'm sure one day I timed "Ministry" and I think I realised it had like three 5 minute songs in it with a wrap-around at the end.

I'd rather have three 5 minute songs than one 15 minute song that overstays its welcome.

[KevShmev]

Yes, and that would be true of almost any band’s early period except the Beatles.

That is true, but it's silly to argue that the 90's wasn't their peak when looking at their history and considering that their two most iconic albums are from that decade.  "But I don't like that album that much!" is not an answer that actually addresses the topic, as I am talking not about personal opinions, but of the general fanbase.  If someone wants to argue that the fanbase as a whole doesn't consider I&W and Scenes their two biggest albums, that would be hilarious to see someone twist things to make that argument, but it would make for some good entertainment.  Even the band knows that those are their two most popular albums which is why both recently got the anniversary treatment where both were played in full on full tours.  I doubt any other DT album is getting that legacy treatment any time soon, although the fans here sure to love to hope for and speculate about this album or that album getting similar treatment.  

[Kotowboy]

That reminds me of when you say you're not a fan of such and such band or album and someone goes  Ohhh I guess that's why they sold X million albums.

As if sales is a unit of quality.

[WilliamMunny]

I voted for the '00s, if only for the fact that two of me top-three albums (6 Degrees & Octavarium) reside in that decade.

That being said, SC and Black Clouds are at the very bottom of my list, so it's kind of a draw.

[Trav86]

Yes, and that would be true of almost any band’s early period except the Beatles.

That is true, but it's silly to argue that the 90's wasn't their peak when looking at their history and considering that their two most iconic albums are from that decade.  "But I don't like that album that much!" is not an answer that actually addresses the topic, as I am talking not about personal opinions, but of the general fanbase.  If someone wants to argue that the fanbase as a whole doesn't consider I&W and Scenes their two biggest albums, that would be hilarious to see someone twist things to make that argument, but it would make for some good entertainment.  Even the band knows that those are their two most popular albums which is why both recently got the anniversary treatment where both were played in full on full tours.  I doubt any other DT album is getting that legacy treatment any time soon, although the fans here sure to love to hope for and speculate about this album or that album getting similar treatment.

Because outside of this board, pretty much every other album is a little more divisive. It’s a pretty safe bet that Images and Scenes are liked by every fan. I’m speaking generally, you don’t need to raise your hand and tell us you don’t love those albums. We know you exist. AND non-hardcore fans benefit from touring those albums as well. There are plenty of people who only know DT from Images and Scenes. A full-album anniversary tour for any other album would not be as successful as those were.

[BeatriceNB]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

[Dave_Manchester]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

I'mma leave a plus and a one right here and then slip quietly away: +1.

[erwinrafael]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

I'mma leave a plus and a one right here and then slip quietly away: +1.

Let me make this plus 2. +2

[Architeuthis]

The 10's.  I agree with what Bosk said in his first post earlier in this thread.

[Lowdz]

‘90s
‘00s
‘10s

That also relates to the available time I had to spend with music too though.
But subpar DT is still better than most other stuff out there.

[Kotowboy]

Yes i'd put Octavarium over Images and Words AND Awake. . .

[BeatriceNB]

Yes i'd put Octavarium over Images and Words AND Awake. . .

Pfft, cold take, I put WDADU over every single DT release, except for The Astonishing (always #1).

[jayvee3]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

Bea, I’ve just been listening to the Astonishing again of late, and while I’ve always been a much bigger fan of the album than most, I’m getting even more appreciation for it again. I remembered you writing this quote and it definitely piqued my interest.

As I’m not a musician as such, I’d actually love to hear your thoughts on the complex musicality in the album. While I understand all the connected motifs and such, and think the album is a musical beast, you have a great way of explaining the technical side of things with far more understanding than me. So wondering if you’d be happy to share some thoughts? 

[erwinrafael]

The Octavarium album is weird for me. I love These Walls. I like TROA and Panic Attack. The rest is meh. The title track was good until I got to the part where the lyrics only make sense if I personally know Mike Portnoy. For somebody like me who at the time did not have much access to the web and lives in the other side of the world, it felt like there was an in-joke and I was not invited to the party.

[jayvee3]

The Octavarium album is weird for me. I love These Walls. I like TROA and Panic Attack. The rest is meh. The title track was good until I got to the part where the lyrics only make sense if I personally know Mike Portnoy. For somebody like me who at the time did not have much access to the web and lives in the other side of the world, it felt like there was an in-joke and I was not invited to the party.

Hearing you on this. I definitely feel the album gets more of a pass because of how much enjoy the title track. While a good song, I don’t rate it as high as others. But the rest of the album is a bit “meh” to me other than some nice moments in Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons. Definitely one which I feel is a bit overrated overall, but also happy that others seem to love it.

[Stadler]

The Octavarium album is weird for me. I love These Walls. I like TROA and Panic Attack. The rest is meh. The title track was good until I got to the part where the lyrics only make sense if I personally know Mike Portnoy. For somebody like me who at the time did not have much access to the web and lives in the other side of the world, it felt like there was an in-joke and I was not invited to the party.

Hearing you on this. I definitely feel the album gets more of a pass because of how much enjoy the title track. While a good song, I don’t rate it as high as others. But the rest of the album is a bit “meh” to me other than some nice moments in Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons. Definitely one which I feel is a bit overrated overall, but also happy that others seem to love it.

Sometimes we can overthink things.    Not every position is justified by something that hasn't anything to do with the music itself (the worth of the title track, or in the ballad thread, where you commented about later songs' relative value). Sometimes it just is what it is.  People like what they like, and don't like what they don't like.  And it has nothing to do with the "title tracks" or "where it is on the album" or "where it is in the catalogue".   

For me, 8V is the last "truly great" DT album.  Doesn't mean the others suck, doesn't mean Portnoy crushes Mangini, doesn't mean The Astonishing is a zero. It just means that if I was to rate the " truly great" DT albums - which basically only means "my real favorites" - this is the latest chronologically (though D/T comes very close).  I've actually spent MORE time with later albums (particularly Systematic Chaos), so that theory is shot, and the title track isn't even top three favorite songs on the record, so that theory is shot.   I'm not "giving it a pass", it's just an album of music that gives me great pleasure from start to finish.  It's really as simple as that.

As for the "in-joke", I think it's something you have to appreciate or not, but it's not about Portnoy as much as it is that age bracket and the music that one might have grown up with.   I recognize all those references not from "knowing Portnoy" (I've only met him once, and talked to his wife once) but from growing up with that music.   Conversely, the Metallica references that crop up now and again in DT's music, are largely lost on me.

[erwinrafael]

Those references to Portnoy's favorite songs just don't make sense following the "short stories" of the first two movements of 8V. I remember first listening to it going "what the hell is this about?" after sort of getting the theme in the song's first half.

[jayvee3]

The Octavarium album is weird for me. I love These Walls. I like TROA and Panic Attack. The rest is meh. The title track was good until I got to the part where the lyrics only make sense if I personally know Mike Portnoy. For somebody like me who at the time did not have much access to the web and lives in the other side of the world, it felt like there was an in-joke and I was not invited to the party.

Hearing you on this. I definitely feel the album gets more of a pass because of how much enjoy the title track. While a good song, I don’t rate it as high as others. But the rest of the album is a bit “meh” to me other than some nice moments in Panic Attack and Sacrificed Sons. Definitely one which I feel is a bit overrated overall, but also happy that others seem to love it.

Sometimes we can overthink things.    Not every position is justified by something that hasn't anything to do with the music itself (the worth of the title track, or in the ballad thread, where you commented about later songs' relative value). Sometimes it just is what it is.  People like what they like, and don't like what they don't like.  And it has nothing to do with the "title tracks" or "where it is on the album" or "where it is in the catalogue".   

For me, 8V is the last "truly great" DT album.  Doesn't mean the others suck, doesn't mean Portnoy crushes Mangini, doesn't mean The Astonishing is a zero. It just means that if I was to rate the " truly great" DT albums - which basically only means "my real favorites" - this is the latest chronologically (though D/T comes very close).  I've actually spent MORE time with later albums (particularly Systematic Chaos), so that theory is shot, and the title track isn't even top three favorite songs on the record, so that theory is shot.   I'm not "giving it a pass", it's just an album of music that gives me great pleasure from start to finish.  It's really as simple as that.

As for the "in-joke", I think it's something you have to appreciate or not, but it's not about Portnoy as much as it is that age bracket and the music that one might have grown up with.   I recognize all those references not from "knowing Portnoy" (I've only met him once, and talked to his wife once) but from growing up with that music.   Conversely, the Metallica references that crop up now and again in DT's music, are largely lost on me.

Absolutely. People like what they like and sometimes it doesn't get any more complicated than that. You and many others seem to genuinely love an album like Octavarium from start to finish, and while its not my personal preference, I'm stoked you get more out of it than me.

But mate, we're talking Dream Theater here - do we ever see opinions here that are simple and non-complicated?   I have read many posts over the years, where people will say 8V is a brilliant album, stating the title track is amazing, and then in the next sentence pick many holes in some of the other tracks. It at least feels like some of the other songs are getting a pass mark based on the love for the title track. Whether that's truly the case is debatable of course.

And sometimes, as I mentioned in the ballad thread, some songs do get lost in the shuffle - I only say this, as I have done it myself on many occasions, then come back and thought "wow, why didn't I ever give that song more play time?" Disappear was one I recall, that I almost didn't listen to properly, as it was this slow ballad at the end of these 4 epic and experimental tracks and before a 42 minute extravaganza. But after revisiting it on its own, was one of the most beautiful and haunting ballads I have ever heard. Sometimes, little scenarios like this do happen. And sometimes, like you say, its as simple as i like this or don't like that.. 

[HOF]

Those references to Portnoy's favorite songs just don't make sense following the "short stories" of the first two movements of 8V. I remember first listening to it going "what the hell is this about?" after sort of getting the theme in the song's first half.

I still don’t get it. The song loses me at that point.

[BeatriceNB]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

Bea, I’ve just been listening to the Astonishing again of late, and while I’ve always been a much bigger fan of the album than most, I’m getting even more appreciation for it again. I remembered you writing this quote and it definitely piqued my interest.

As I’m not a musician as such, I’d actually love to hear your thoughts on the complex musicality in the album. While I understand all the connected motifs and such, and think the album is a musical beast, you have a great way of explaining the technical side of things with far more understanding than me. So wondering if you’d be happy to share some thoughts? 

I consider myself pretty bad at explaining things, or more specifically, pinpointing them. But I really love how the album is through-composed (essentially, the songs start and evolve until they end), so a lot of songs actually don't have a chorus, and are really diverse (and in some with choruses, the band change them up with the repetitions, harmonically and rhythmically, like A New Beginning). Ravenskill, which is my favourite song in the album, is through-composed, and it covers a lot of ground, while feeling really cohesive. Outside of Metropolis 1, the band never wrote using that concept. Which makes the album way more unique to me.

Then there's Mike Mangini, and the way he orchestrates fills, follows melodies, and also how he supports the soloists, it all blows my mind. He doesn't simply play fills during the solos, but enhances the leads; and I've seen people saying his drumming on the A New Beginning outro is bad, but I disagree, it helps the section to get that (lovely) Satriani vibe, and leaving all the spotlight to Petrucci.
And just the overall drumming is amazing, full of details and embellishments. Losing Faythe is a really good example, there's attention to detail there, even more if you account for the stereo image (which MM many times mentions when talking about which parts of the kit to use).

And then all the "vertical" stuff, the arrangements, layers, harmony... it's all satisfying, and more advanced than in any other DT album (at least to my knowledge). During their Metal era (2000-2009), harmony isn't really a focus, neither are arrangements, it's all focused on riffs, and most of the songs can be played as a quintet without leaving anything behind (Distance Over Time is in the same spot).

To clarify, when I say complex, I would say it's more about the "depth" of the arrangements/compositions.
Stuff like Scenes and Train Of Thought require certain skill level to be played, but it's mostly about endurance and speed (especially on guitars, keys and bass). Dance Of Eternity, while having like 140 time sig changes (I'm sure it's less if notated in a more cohesive, easier to feel way), it comes down to string of notes cutting early or going for a bit longer than expected; "vertically" there's very little going on (which I understand is intentional to avoid making the song a chaotic mess).
I'm not saying one is better than the other, or that a complex arrangement means good, that's all subjective. But I'm very opposed to the idea of saying DT albums (I'm mostly talking about the period of 1996 to 2009) are that complex (with exceptions here and there).

[jayvee3]

While there are definitely things DT have done that I strongly prefer to other things they have done, I can't use "steep decline" to describe anything DT-related.

Exactly. As Much as I love Metallica - Dream Theater never put out their St. Anger. Even though a lot of people act like The Astonishing was 'unlistenable' for some reason....

Oh it doesn't have 30 minute songs and 6 minute solo trade offs in 19/16. Must be Shit!

Dream Theater could put out an album of ten 3 minute songs in 4/4 and if they were amazing songs I literally wouldn't care.

Like - Of course I love all the technical proggy stuff but my fave DT song of the mangini era is Our New World.

The Astonishing easily is their most complex album musically, but people aren't ready for that conversation.

Bea, I’ve just been listening to the Astonishing again of late, and while I’ve always been a much bigger fan of the album than most, I’m getting even more appreciation for it again. I remembered you writing this quote and it definitely piqued my interest.

As I’m not a musician as such, I’d actually love to hear your thoughts on the complex musicality in the album. While I understand all the connected motifs and such, and think the album is a musical beast, you have a great way of explaining the technical side of things with far more understanding than me. So wondering if you’d be happy to share some thoughts? 

I consider myself pretty bad at explaining things, or more specifically, pinpointing them. But I really love how the album is through-composed (essentially, the songs start and evolve until they end), so a lot of songs actually don't have a chorus, and are really diverse (and in some with choruses, the band change them up with the repetitions, harmonically and rhythmically, like A New Beginning). Ravenskill, which is my favourite song in the album, is through-composed, and it covers a lot of ground, while feeling really cohesive. Outside of Metropolis 1, the band never wrote using that concept. Which makes the album way more unique to me.

Then there's Mike Mangini, and the way he orchestrates fills, follows melodies, and also how he supports the soloists, it all blows my mind. He doesn't simply play fills during the solos, but enhances the leads; and I've seen people saying his drumming on the A New Beginning outro is bad, but I disagree, it helps the section to get that (lovely) Satriani vibe, and leaving all the spotlight to Petrucci.
And just the overall drumming is amazing, full of details and embellishments. Losing Faythe is a really good example, there's attention to detail there, even more if you account for the stereo image (which MM many times mentions when talking about which parts of the kit to use).

And then all the "vertical" stuff, the arrangements, layers, harmony... it's all satisfying, and more advanced than in any other DT album (at least to my knowledge). During their Metal era (2000-2009), harmony isn't really a focus, neither are arrangements, it's all focused on riffs, and most of the songs can be played as a quintet without leaving anything behind (Distance Over Time is in the same spot).

To clarify, when I say complex, I would say it's more about the "depth" of the arrangements/compositions.
Stuff like Scenes and Train Of Thought require certain skill level to be played, but it's mostly about endurance and speed (especially on guitars, keys and bass). Dance Of Eternity, while having like 140 time sig changes (I'm sure it's less if notated in a more cohesive, easier to feel way), it comes down to string of notes cutting early or going for a bit longer than expected; "vertically" there's very little going on (which I understand is intentional to avoid making the song a chaotic mess).
I'm not saying one is better than the other, or that a complex arrangement means good, that's all subjective. But I'm very opposed to the idea of saying DT albums (I'm mostly talking about the period of 1996 to 2009) are that complex (with exceptions here and there).

Firstly Bea - thank you for taking the time to express your thoughts on this. I agree completely with many of your points and how cohesive the album is. Interestingly, I have a lot of my DT tracks on shuffle these days and I even find out of order and not in context of the album, so many of the tracks stand up well regardless. I was on a run today and "Saviour in the Square/When your time has come" came on and I was completely transfixed on them - just beautifully composed pieces of music.

I too love Mangini's drumming. While I'm far from a drummer, I can still hear the incredible talent and precision, but I often hear criticisms of his "groove". This never made a great deal of sense to me, as I feel he shows this in spades with outros such as "A New Beginning", having some great groove while allowing breathing space to compliment others to shine as you mention.

It's an album that I really loved from when it first came out, and I seem to be gaining even more appreciation for it as time goes on. I also agree with your point and love how so many of the connected themes that reappear, do so in slightly different and inventive ways, whether it be a guitar riff to a slower piano version, or even bagpipes. And without a search - while many of the recurring themes are obvious, was there any connected themes found in 'The Gift of Music"? It appears a bit of a rogue track, but there may be things that I missed in it.

Again, great analysis and thanks kindly for taking the time 

[Wim Kruithof]

Funny, but honestly, I can't make the choice. My initial thoughts go to the 00's but I can't stand losing A Dramatic Turn of Events. Dream Theater selftitled is also a diamond to me, so here I am, not able to pick. If I have to, I would lose the 90's, that's for sure, but neither Train of Thought, the Count of Tuscany, the whole Dramatic Turn or Illumination Theory, I could possibly be able to miss.

[Dublagent66]

90's by a landslide.  No surprise there.