NBA 2021-22---- NBA LEGEND Bill Russell 1934-2022 RIP

[King Postwhore]

My worry is Jalen wants to control his destiny and that is in2 years.  I wonder if he's telling the C's, I want to see what's out there.

[bosk1]

Maybe not a bad move if they could leave Smart out of it.  But I think sending both of them for Durant is a bad move for Boston.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Predictably, Nick Wright (of FS1) put Michael Jordan at number 3 on his list of 50 greatest NBA players of the last 50 years, and his name ended up trending all day on Twitter because MJ fans are so irrational any time anyone doesn't drop to their knees and genuflect to the actual number 23 that they were trashing him all day.

Wright's main point makes total sense, though: MJ, LeBron and Kareem all have a strong argument to be the GOAT, so when listing them as the top 3 of the last 50 years, one of them has to finish at 3. 

As I've gotten older, my opinion on the GOAT argument is that there really isn't one. There are so many ways to look at it. If you're talking about which player was the best at his absolute best (maybe pick a season), then I'd probably choose Jordan. If you widen that to 5-10 years, it becomes more debatable, but still probably Jordan. If you're focusing more on longevity and career impact, then it's probably Abdul-Jabbar or James. If you're focusing on winning or even just who dominated their league the most, then it's probably Russell. Those four are the gold standard and whoever you want to come out on top, you can just tweak the criteria to land where you want to land.

[KevShmev]

Predictably, Nick Wright (of FS1) put Michael Jordan at number 3 on his list of 50 greatest NBA players of the last 50 years, and his name ended up trending all day on Twitter because MJ fans are so irrational any time anyone doesn't drop to their knees and genuflect to the actual number 23 that they were trashing him all day.

Wright's main point makes total sense, though: MJ, LeBron and Kareem all have a strong argument to be the GOAT, so when listing them as the top 3 of the last 50 years, one of them has to finish at 3. 

As I've gotten older, my opinion on the GOAT argument is that there really isn't one. There are so many ways to look at it. If you're talking about which player was the best at his absolute best (maybe pick a season), then I'd probably choose Jordan. If you widen that to 5-10 years, it becomes more debatable, but still probably Jordan. If you're focusing more on longevity and career impact, then it's probably Abdul-Jabbar or James. If you're focusing on winning or even just who dominated their league the most, then it's probably Russell. Those four are the gold standard and whoever you want to come out on top, you can just tweak the criteria to land where you want to land.

I never saw Russell play, so it is hard for me to judge him.

If I could take one player at their very best for one game, I am taking Jordan without question, but I still think he is neck and neck with James in the GOAT conversation.  James has him beat when it comes to longevity, degree of difficulty and in the doing more with less regard.   Once Jordan had a great coach and very good team around him, there was almost no stopping him, but when he had average teammates and coaches not named Phil Jackson, he was getting booted out of the 1st and 2nd rounds every year.

[King Postwhore]

That sounds very much like LeBron early career as well.

[KevShmev]

That sounds very much like LeBron early career as well.

Early on, yes, but Jordan never made it to the finals with a supporting cast as putrid as the ones James had in '07 with the Cavs. 

[King Postwhore]

I get that but he really needed a cast to win. 2 in Miami, one with Kyrie hitting the winning shot and the bubble one which was easier I personally though.

[KevShmev]

I get that but he really needed a cast to win. 2 in Miami, one with Kyrie hitting the winning shot and the bubble one which was easier I personally though.

Oh, come on, you are smarter than this.  Repeating a silly narrative that clowns like Skip Bayless come up is beneath you, sir. 

[King Postwhore]

Can't a guy rile up a friend?

I do think it's close buy I'll give the Goat to Jordan for a little bit of humility. Lol

[TAC]

Reports the Celtics have offered Jaylen Brown and more for Durant.

Interesting.

If I am the Celtics I am pissed this got out. The Celts had us under the impression they weren't in on Durant.

[KevShmev]

Can't a guy rile up a friend?

I do think it's close buy I'll give the Goat to Jordan for a little bit of humility. Lol

Wait, wait, Michael Jordan has humility?  Is this opposite day?

[King Postwhore]

I said a little. Thats not much.

[Azyiu]

Reports are saying NBA Legend, Hall of Famer, Bill Russell, passed away peacefully today. He was 88. RIP.

[King Postwhore]

Yeah. A man admired off the court as he was on the court.   R.I.P.

[SoundscapeMN]

greatest winner in the history of Team Sports in North America.

R.I.P.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

A legend who still somehow doesn't feel as legendary as he deserves. RIP.

[DragonAttack]

What I posted in the Queen discography: 

"Wow!  As a sports fan, if there was anyone who deserved a song titled 'We Are The Champions' after themselves, on and off an NCAA, Olympic, or NBA court, ...
it was Bill Russell.

I thought he was immortal (just like Nichelle Nichols)."

I'm old enough to remember seeing him win titles before he became player-coach.  And then seeing grainy film of him and K.C. Jones going undefeated two years in a row while winning NCAA titles at San Francisco.  And an Olympic title.  He wasn't the best analyst, but I loved that laugh of his.

Oh, and I was never a Celtics fan.

So many of the aimless and tiresome discussions (arguments) about 'GOAT this' and 'GOAT that', and all I would think of at those times was...

Bill Russell: 'Here, hold my beer!'

Such a class man on and off the court, for all he did, and all he needlessly had to endure.  RIP.

[ReaPsTA]

RIP Bill Russell

[Dream Team]

11 titles in 13 years, and sometimes going against Wilt to do it, playing both sides of the ball. Why the people of Boston prefer Brady over him I still have no idea. The greatest run of dominance and championships ever.

[Lonk]

Is it time for a new thread or still too far from the new season?

Anyways, Reports are that Durant is giving the Nets and ultimatum: Trade him, or fire Nash and the GM  The Nets should look into trading him to a desperate team for a couple of role players and a few first round picks.

[bosk1]

Is it time for a new thread or still too far from the new season?

I kinda feel like we're still too far from the season, but I won't be bothered if people want to start a new one.  When it gets started, I'll just lock this one.

Anyways, Reports are that Durant is giving the Nets and ultimatum: Trade him, or fire Nash and the GM  The Nets should look into trading him to a desperate team for a couple of role players and a few first round picks.

On the surface, in context of Durant's history, I think this is a very bad look for him.  But that said, I was listening to a commentator this morning who made some good points on the other side.

First off, there's more to it than just "I want out; trade me or else."  It was more, "I'm not satisfied with the direction of this team and have no confidence in ownership's/management's vision and direction for the team, nor ability to carry out a successful vision, so trade me."  And that's not entirely unfair.  They have made a LOT of poor decisions that can rightly be laid at their feet.

Second, aside from ownership, the most glaring problem with the team is all the baggage associated with Irving. 

Putting those two together, the commentator's point was that the best look for Durant, the team, and the league would be for ownership to sit down with Durant and have a give-and-take heart-to-heart conversation that gets down to brass tacks and says something along the lines of the following:  "No, we're not going to just trade you.  But you raise some valid points.  You want changes at the top, and we hear you.  Those guys have cost the organization, and we agree that they need to go.  But here's the quid pro quo:  We need your buy-in and trust if we make those changes.  And part of that is, despite that you and Kyrie are friends and came as a package deal, he's also a problem, whether you see it or not.  We can build a team around you that can seriously contend for a few years to come, as long as that team doesn't have Kyrie on it.  So get onboard and let's do this."

I don't think that's an unfair take.

[King Postwhore]

From what I understood, Durant and Kyrie signed off on Nash.  His real issue is that he decided to play with Kyrie.  That's what's sidetracked his career. 

[Lonk]

Putting those two together, the commentator's point was that the best look for Durant, the team, and the league would be for ownership to sit down with Durant and have a give-and-take heart-to-heart conversation that gets down to brass tacks and says something along the lines of the following:  "No, we're not going to just trade you.  But you raise some valid points.  You want changes at the top, and we hear you.  Those guys have cost the organization, and we agree that they need to go.  But here's the quid pro quo:  We need your buy-in and trust if we make those changes.  And part of that is, despite that you and Kyrie are friends and came as a package deal, he's also a problem, whether you see it or not.  We can build a team around you that can seriously contend for a few years to come, as long as that team doesn't have Kyrie on it.  So get onboard and let's do this."

I don't think that's an unfair take.

That not unfair at all. When he first asked to be traded, I took that as "I'm done here" from KD. However, something to keep in mind is that Durant passed his prime. While building a team around him is a smart move, I do wonder how many years he has in him of great performance.

From what I understood, Durant and Kyrie signed off on Nash.  His real issue is that he decided to play with Kyrie.  That's what's sidetracked his career. 

As good as Kyrie is, I think he is best as a second option, and I don't think Durant has the leadership to bring out the best of Kyrie.

[bosk1]

...I don't think Durant has the leadership to bring out the best of Kyrie.

Honestly, I don't think anyone does.  Seems like Kyrie does what Kyrie wants, and it doesn't matter who tells him otherwise.  He won a championship with LeBron, and I think it's telling that LeBron has never pushed to get him.

[King Postwhore]

I agree with you Victor, no doubt.  But in 2 years you couldn't get both on the court at the same time to really find out and that's Kyrie's fault.

[crazy climber dude]

...I don't think Durant has the leadership to bring out the best of Kyrie.

Honestly, I don't think anyone does.  Seems like Kyrie does what Kyrie wants, and it doesn't matter who tells him otherwise.  He won a championship with LeBron, and I think it's telling that LeBron has never pushed to get him.

So where did it all go wrong with Kyrie mentally? Was he like that at Duke? You would think, for example, that Coach K would have the leadership swag to get the best out of him (and not just on the court).

[Azyiu]

So we finally have someone who plays D  ... seriously, as a Lakers fan I am somewhat at a lost... I am not exactly a LBJ fan, and now Beverley is on my team?  anyway, according to ESPN...

Beverley's arrival on an expiring $13 million contract essentially leaves only LeBron James ($46.7 million) and Anthony Davis ($40.6 million) on the Lakers' books in 2023-24, delivering them significant salary-cap space to remake the roster around those two All-NBA stars.

For cap reason alone, it ain't a bad move. Let's just sort of get through this season, and see who to sign next year...

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Beverley is old enough that it could go south real quick if his body finally fails him, but if he plays at the level he did last year, this is a good move for them. This adds even more pressure to unload Westbrook, because Beverley is a way better fit with AD and LBJ.

[Azyiu]

Just like that, OKC's Chet Holmgren is out for the season with a Lisfranc injury... I was really looking forward to see him play, that hurts... are these big guys just too fragile? Or the competition at the pro level is just that much tougher? It feels like many young bigs just get hurt rather easily.

[Samsara]

Just like that, OKC's Chet Holmgren is out for the season with a Lisfranc injury... I was really looking forward to see him play, that hurts... are these big guys just too fragile? Or the competition at the pro level is just that much tougher? It feels like many young bigs just get hurt rather easily.

He should never have been playing that Pro Am. The court was slick, and unlike Lebron, who has made all his money, Holmgren has his whole future in front of him. He got hurt just a couple minutes in, slipping on the floor.

On another note - so happy with the moves my Timberwolves made. People laughed at me when I said they'd post over 45 wins last year. And look what they did...46. And quite frankly, they COULD HAVE, and SHOULD HAVE beaten the Grizzlies. They didn't know how to close. Great season. With the addition of Gobert, they have exactly what they need to take another leap.

I feel like they are in position now to be around 50 wins, another seed or two higher in the West, and should be a contender to come out of the West for the next three to four years.

I know people think the Wolves gave up too much for Rudy Gobert. But those people don't know the team like those of us who live Timberwolves basketball. We gave up career bench players, we have tons of depth to replace them, and the draft picks - our team is young anyway, and with us likely being a legitimate 45-55 win team probably for the next 4-7 years, none of those picks are going to be anything high. They'll be high teens, low 20s.

So bench guys, and a host of low first round picks for a guy who is an All NBA center, defensive monster, and huge presence that makes our front line the tallest and most athletic in the NBA? Yeah, I'm good.

And wait til you all see Anthony Edwards. Saying it now... 26+ ppg next season, NBA All Star. Towns is the centerpiece, and he'll do his usual 25/10/5. But Edwards is going to make a leap that will have people drooling.

Absolutely impressed by the moves Tim Connelly has made.

[Azyiu]

Both Danilo Gallinari & Gary Harris suffers torn meniscus in their left knee. The silver lining for Gallo is, at least he just signed a 2-year deal with the Celtics; and it is fully guaranteed.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Just like that, OKC's Chet Holmgren is out for the season with a Lisfranc injury... I was really looking forward to see him play, that hurts... are these big guys just too fragile? Or the competition at the pro level is just that much tougher? It feels like many young bigs just get hurt rather easily.

He should never have been playing that Pro Am. The court was slick, and unlike Lebron, who has made all his money, Holmgren has his whole future in front of him. He got hurt just a couple minutes in, slipping on the floor.

On another note - so happy with the moves my Timberwolves made. People laughed at me when I said they'd post over 45 wins last year. And look what they did...46. And quite frankly, they COULD HAVE, and SHOULD HAVE beaten the Grizzlies. They didn't know how to close. Great season. With the addition of Gobert, they have exactly what they need to take another leap.

I feel like they are in position now to be around 50 wins, another seed or two higher in the West, and should be a contender to come out of the West for the next three to four years.

I know people think the Wolves gave up too much for Rudy Gobert. But those people don't know the team like those of us who live Timberwolves basketball. We gave up career bench players, we have tons of depth to replace them, and the draft picks - our team is young anyway, and with us likely being a legitimate 45-55 win team probably for the next 4-7 years, none of those picks are going to be anything high. They'll be high teens, low 20s.

So bench guys, and a host of low first round picks for a guy who is an All NBA center, defensive monster, and huge presence that makes our front line the tallest and most athletic in the NBA? Yeah, I'm good.

And wait til you all see Anthony Edwards. Saying it now... 26+ ppg next season, NBA All Star. Towns is the centerpiece, and he'll do his usual 25/10/5. But Edwards is going to make a leap that will have people drooling.

Absolutely impressed by the moves Tim Connelly has made.

Gobert gets way too much crap from people. If his team doesn't completely shut down the opposition, then it's immediately his fault, even if everyone else besides him is clearly playing terrible and he's the only one actually making a difference out there. I loved that acquisition for the T'Wolves!

[Samsara]

Yeah, I loved it. And I was a critic of Gobert, but it was more because I felt, and still do, that Towns is superior. So when Gobert was getting love in the All-NBA talk, it pissed me off because Towns is better. And now we have both of them, so... 

re: Knicks

My friends here know my story about how I became a Timberwolves fanatic - I'm an OG with them from the 1989 expansion team. But my hometown team, which I still root for (in addition to the Wolves), is the Knicks. I love the signing of R.J. Great deal, a non-max deal for flexibility, and I'm really bullish on them getting Donovan Mitchell...without losing Barrett, Randle and Brunson. Once Leon Rose relents a little bit on the picks, and maybe it requires a third team getting involved like the Lakers, it's going to happen. And when it does, man:

C - Mitchell Robinson
PF - Randle
SF - Barrett
SG - Mitchell
PG - Brunson

Sure...the bench is a question mark, as is defense. But Madison Square Garden will be rocking.

[Samsara]

Well, screw my last post. Donovan Mitchell is now a Cleveland Cavalier. 

Wow.

[Azyiu]

The Cavs will be fun to watch for sure. If anything at all, I am not exactly sure why the Cavs traded for Mitchell though, especially when he said his preferred teams are the Nets, Heat or Knicks.