POLL: Train of Thought vs. A Dramatic Turn of Events?

[bosk1]

Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."

If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.

And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.

In terms of logic you are objectively wrong. And pg1067 has already demonstrated this.

Exactly.  In Mike's own words:

After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater

There isn't any room for "opinion" on this issue.  The facts are the facts.

[Trav86]

Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory?  He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking." 

Yep. And after that is when he secretly went back to DT (or their representatives) wanting to come back to the band.

[pg1067]

Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."

If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.

And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.

First, we all have opinions, and we routinely debate the merits of those opinions.  You don't get to short-circuit that discussion simply by declaring, "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it."

Second, whether MP quit or was fired is a matter of fact, not opinion.

Third, when the man himself publicly states, "I have decided to leave," it's awfully odd for someone completely disconnected from the situation to say, in effect, "No.  You didn't 'decide[] to leave;' you were fired."

Fourth, no one who was actually involved in the situation ever said that MP went to the other four guys and said, "I need us to take a break, and if you don't agree, I'm going to quit."  IF that had happened, then you could make a semi-logical argument that, by saying "no" to the break, the band was, in effect firing him.  However, everything that has ever been made public indicates that MP went to the rest of the band and said, "Hey...I need us to take a break.  What do you think?"  That's it.  The rest of the guys said, "no."  At that point, MP then made the decision to leave.  In other words, he quit.  Obviously, none of us were privy to those communications, but this is what everyone involved has publicly said happened.  It was not, "give me what I want or I quit," and they called his bluff.  Rather, it was, "I want this," and they said "no," so he then "decided to leave."

If you want to believe the world is flat, that's your call, but don't expect that you can post something that simply isn't true and not have folks call you on it.

[KevShmev]

Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."

Wife: "Not happening."

**husbands cheats on the wife**

Husband then blames the wife saying, "She made me do it because she didn't give me what I wanted!!"

*the peanut gallery roars with laughter*

[TAC]

I have to remember to ask my wife for some coitus.




I have always found the split extremely fascinating. I also find it funny that MP mentions Hail first in his statement. Hail? Really?

I mean, he may have said "I'm gonna leave" and then the band replied "then leave then", but since MP takes responsibility for his decision, there's really no point in stating it otherwise. I've always felt that they called his bluff though.

My opinion, is that there must've been some ongoing strife that had built up and it hit a tipping point. Again, just musing here. It just seemed like JP and MP had differing opinions on the band's direction, and JP had the support of the rest of the band behind him. I don't know. That's how I've viewed it.

[KevShmev]

I was trying to be PC.    (it is 2021, after all )

I think it ultimately boils down to, he wanted to take a break, the others did not.  I have read tidbits elsewhere over the years that the relationship between Portnoy and LaBrie was far worse at the end that what most think, so that might have been a tipping point as well for Portnoy to just want to get the hell out of there once no one was on his side in the "taking a break" convo. 

I still say, we, the fans, ultimately are the big winners in all of this.  DT has been re-energized since his departure and consistently put out really good albums since (when they were trending downward quality wise at the end of Portnoy's tenure), and Portnoy has had Flying Colors, Neal Morse Band, two more Transatlantic albums and more solo Neal material.  It is possible that Flying Colors never happens and Neal's solo band never mushrooms into the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy was still in DT, so I consider that a major positive for both Portnoy and the fans.

[TAC]

There has been NOTHING that Portnoy has done since he left DT that I have any remote interest in, other than LTE 3, JP's solo album, and a couple of listens to the first A-Mob album.

And that SUCKS!

[Dedalus]

Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."

Wife: "Not happening."

**husbands cheats on the wife**

Husband then blames the wife saying, "She made me do it because she didn't give me what I wanted!!"

*the peanut gallery roars with laughter*

Excellent example. I will use it in class. 

[Kotowboy]

Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory?  He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking." 

Yes. Which led to MPs famous " You cant trust anyone these days " tweet. Translation I tried to have my cake and eat it now I have nothing so i'll just blame everyone else. ...

Plus all the "liking" of anti Labrie posts on facebook and "retweeting" anti Labrie posts on twitter and going " *I* didn't say them!"

But you agree with them which is the same thing.

[KevShmev]

There has been NOTHING that Portnoy has done since he left DT that I have any remote interest in, other than LTE 3, JP's solo album, and a couple of listens to the first A-Mob album.

And that SUCKS!

Well, you famously have (to put it nicely) weird taste in music , but for those of us who are into Neal Morse and all of the stuff Portnoy has done with him in their 399 bands, the last decade has been a goldmine. 

[Podaar]

TOT by miles, no contest.

Hear, hear, good show. Stream of Consciousness wins by itself, but add in the rest of the album... 

[Trav86]

A Dramatic Turn of Events would normally be my answer. However, Train of Thought has really moved up in my book lately. That’s my pick

I’ve listened to both again recently as well as rewatched Live at Luna Park, and enjoyed all of those ADTOE songs live. I think I’m going back to my original instincts and say that I prefer A Dramatic Turn of Events .

[Kotowboy]

My favourite thing Mike Portnoy did since leaving Dream Theater was leave Adrenaline Mob due to "scheduling conflicts".

He claimed he had no time left to devote to that band - when in other interviews he literally brags about how many bands and projects he's involved in.

I think it was pretty obvious he knew that band was terrible and wanted out.

The lowest point was the song " Feel The Adrenaline ". Shockingly generic. Spelling errors in the lyric video and sounded like

Ultra generic background music for a Playstation racing game.

[JMaekelae]

"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.

Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.

[hefdaddy42]

"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.

Yeah, those are put out by the band's publicist, not by, you know, THE GUY WHO LEFT.

Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.

Where do you get this shit?  Both sides are in agreement on what happened, but you apparently think EVERYONE IS LYING ABOUT IT and ONLY YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.

He quit because he wanted a break and they didn't want to take a break.  That's it.  That's what MP says, and that's what the band says.

[pg1067]

"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.

Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.

Well...there are only five people who truly know what happened, and the four who have actually spoken on the subject have been completely consistent as to what happened.

What POSSIBLE reason would MP have had to lie about the circumstances of his leaving?  Given all the things he DID say -- a lot of which was not well thought out/filtered -- do you really think that, if he had been fired, he wouldn't have said so?

As for a "majority vote," the vote was about whether the band should take a break.  It was NOT a vote about whether MP would stay in the band.  As I mentioned already, when the "break" vote went against MP, he then made a choice to leave.

[pg1067]

Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."

I read this in the voice of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory.   

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.

It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times. I'd like to think that yes, the guys wanted to continue and had to let Mike go..also Mike was not happy with the relationships and the music from DT at that time..he felt burned..and who can blame him really. Having all the responsibilities in the band..and then some.

But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.

At least at this point in time -thankfully everyone seems happy and that's a good thing..

[bosk1]

I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.

It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times. I'd like to think that yes, the guys wanted to continue and had to let Mike go..also Mike was not happy with the relationships and the music from DT at that time..he felt burned..and who can blame him really. Having all the responsibilities in the band..and then some.

But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.

At least at this point in time -thankfully everyone seems happy and that's a good thing..

You aren't wrong to raise those questions.  But you are talking about a different issue.  The issue being discussed is whether he quit or was fired.  The facts on that are pretty much beyond dispute.  That isn't a "the truth is probably somewhere in the middle" situation, because there is no middle--both the band and MP were consistent in what they said.  Everyone involved agrees that he quit (although, admittedly, it is a bit more complex than the usual "quitting" situation, because Mike felt that, from his perspective, he had no choice). 

What you are talking about is why (not whether) he quit.  And, yeah, there is a lot of grey there because there is a lot we will never know, and a lot of information out there that invites speculation.  For instance, the A7X situation.  From Mike's perspective (at least, from what he has said publicly), that had nothing to do with the reason he left, but was in his mind a viable fallback position for him when making the decision.  Others insist that he must have factored that in as a reason why he dug in and insisted that the band take a break, and that he wanted to play those big venues with A7X and make the money from being with them.  We'll never know how much of a role that played.  It's possible that Mike has trouble reconciling in his own mind how much of a role in played.  Who knows?  All anyone can really do is guess.  And I personally don't find it very constructive to guess about what is going on in someone else's head.

[pg1067]

I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.

It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times.

I don't disagree with that.  However, this isn't a situation in which MP says the light was red and the guys in DT say it was green.  Everyone involved says the same thing:  MP left the band of his own free will.  There isn't a dispute, so there isn't a "middle" in which to find the truth.

But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.

That's a whole different issue.  Obviously, the band wanted to continue full-speed ahead.  They made that clear to MP before he quit, and they did exactly that after he quit.  It's been a while, so I could be off on the timeline, but I think you're right that MP's attempt to return occurred AFTER the auditions AND after they had already chosen MM as the new drummer.  Could they have accepted MP's overture and let him return?  Probably (although none of us know what contracts may already have been signed at that point).  Publicly, they said they wouldn't have been comfortable doing that to MM.  Privately -- and this is pure speculation on my part -- I think they were not completely unhappy to be without some of the things that MP brought to the table and were excited about taking some new approaches to some things.  Again, that's complete speculation on my part.

[JMaekelae]

"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.

Yeah, those are put out by the band's publicist, not by, you know, THE GUY WHO LEFT.

Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.

Where do you get this shit?  Both sides are in agreement on what happened, but you apparently think EVERYONE IS LYING ABOUT IT and ONLY YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.

He quit because he wanted a break and they didn't want to take a break.  That's it.  That's what MP says, and that's what the band says.

I've never said I know the truth. Nor have I implied there's much more to it than what was given out to public. I'm just saying that if MP said the band must take a break or he goes, the band had two choices and THEY chose the one where MP had to go. That's why the "Mike quit himself" is just a way to sugar-coat the situation, IMO.

I've witnessed or heard of quite a few situations, where things didn't end amicably, but both sides felt it's best to keep the dirt and bad blood from the public/fans/co-workers/etc. At most times it's the high road for everyone involved. Once again, I'm not saying this is the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me either. And no, I don't even want to know, it doesn't concern me in any way. I'm not on anyone's side here. Except my own, trying to explain the logic behind my words to all you defenders of the truth.

Now I quit. All the best.

[Trav86]

Now I quit. All the best.

Awesome. Now that Portnoy’s lawyer is gone we can move on.

[TAC]

Now I quit. All the best.

Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..

[OptionalPlayer]

Who remembers this spicy hot-take I posted here a couple of years ago? 

https://uncannyderek.com/2018/08/02/train-of-thought-dream-theaters-last-great-album/

[Trav86]

Who remembers this spicy hot-take I posted here a couple of years ago? 

https://uncannyderek.com/2018/08/02/train-of-thought-dream-theaters-last-great-album/

I do. You’re still wrong. 

[pg1067]

I'm just saying that if MP said the band must take a break or he goes, the band had two choices and THEY chose the one where MP had to go. That's why the "Mike quit himself" is just a way to sugar-coat the situation, IMO.

Neither he nor anyone else involved has ever said that he said that.

[JMaekelae]

Now I quit. All the best.

Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..

Even though I should take this as a personal insult of the highest order, I also find this comment funny. 😅

[TAC]

Now I quit. All the best.

Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..

Even though I should take this as a personal insult of the highest order, I also find this comment funny. 😅

Good because it was a joke, and most certainly not an insult.

[Max Kuehnau]

Dramatic Turn easily. (Them at their peak, technically and musically, at the time. No Porty. Finally sounding great. No drama, just nicely clean music. All killers, no fillers.) This album made me a DT fan again. (and it saved my life at the time)

[Kotowboy]

A Dramatic Turn...was definitely missing Portnoy's drum SOUND. But I didn't need to hear the 16th note Hertas down the toms ever again.

[hacko]

ADToE hands down. I fell in love with DT's melodic range, and it'd be a really really hard argument for anyone to show that ToT is better in that regard to ADToE.