POLL: Train of Thought vs. A Dramatic Turn of Events?

[DoctorAction]

Train of Thought was the first real low point for DT. The heaviness seems so forced its almost unlistenable. Feels like they were trying to prove something with the bucket full of pointless riffs and a serious lack of decent melodies. Point made.

+1 . Makes me cringe hard. JP and MP should have gone off and done a proper heavy side project with some other peeps. TOT just sounds silly

[erciccio]

My favourite moments in TOT are Vacant and ITTOG. All rest is boring metal, totally outside DT's area of confidence.

ADTOE contains a lot of variety and many masterpieces (outcry, breaking all illusions,...) and I also appreciate the production, it fits the mood of the album (except for Along for the ride, where the snare sound is a total disaster)

So, ADTOE >>>> ToT

[darkshade]

Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.

[bobzor]

Train of Thought all the way. A Dramatic Turn of Events has some fine moments, no doubt, but ToT is so dark and heavy that it somehow resonates with me. Maybe it's because I'm into extreme metal and stuff. The songs on that album are somehow a prefect mix of drama and heaviness that it just tears your heart out.

[H2]

TOT is old for me part of DT's "golden era" (roughly from SFAM to Octavarium). I agree it has major flaws, but on the whole I think it's musically superior to ADTOE. There aren't any songs on ADTOE that are all that compelling or interesting.

[hunnus2000]

I usually don't participate in these kinds of polls but ToT came on the other day and it definitely seems like forced metal which I attribute to MP. I think the video in the making of ToT he said the "music has to have balls" or something to that effect which makes me think he forced some things.

It's still a badass album but ADToE seems more organic, production flaws and all. Also, I love the tone of JP's guitar! 

[Dedalus]

Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.

Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.

[darkshade]

TOT is old for me part of DT's "golden era" (roughly from SFAM to Octavarium). I agree it has major flaws, but on the whole I think it's musically superior to ADTOE. There aren't any songs on ADTOE that are all that compelling or interesting.

While SFAM to Octavarium is the band's peak, I think the golden era of DT is IaW through Octavarium/Score.

[darkshade]

Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.

Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.

I think ToT is great success. Probably their most controversial and most talked about album besides IaW. I think it rocks.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

Train of Though without a doubt. Moving on from SDoIT when they decided to be more aggressive and take an even more metal direction for their new album, really surprised me back in the day. From the intriguing artwork (by Jerry Uelsmann) to the cool intro (from the Losing Time/Grand Finale outro) the album grabs you and it takes you for a relentless ride. The songs flow great and they release energy when they should without straying away from the dark/metal atmosphere. The instrumental sections carry the message of the song saying what needs to be said and never feel boring. The placement of the songs is great too, like Vacant and how it serves like an opener for SoC, awesome stuff. Of course it wouldn't be a proper DT album without an epic closer and for sure they wrote one of the best closing epics of their entire catalog. Especially the live version is legendary with the extended JP solo and JLB nailing the melodies.

ADToE is clearly an album that it's a product of it's time, it served as a plan for the band to prove themselves to their fans and help them transition with the least amount of losses to their new musical chapter. The production is weird,  it had more songs but they don't always make for a better record and they weren't all that memorable with a few exceptions. Also the album felt partially as a remake of IaW..not that original.

In retrospect both albums have strengths and weaknesses but consider this, would you like to listen on the upcoming tour ASoC, ES and ItNoG or songs like Build me Up and Break me Down and Outcry..they're is no comparison.

[Volante99]

I always see the comments that ADToE is a remake of I&W and I just don’t see it, musically or otherwise. I understand the track order follows a rough outline in regards to “feel” but that’s where the comparison ends for me. Two VERY different albums in my opinion.

[Dedalus]

Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.

Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.

I think ToT is great success. Probably their most controversial and most talked about album besides IaW. I think it rocks.

No doubt. I remember a lot of metalheads who didn't like the band but started listening to it because of this record.
When I said disastrous album I meant it from my point of view, of course.

[hefdaddy42]

While Octavarium and BCaSL had their moments, I still wasn't completely on board. Weirdly enough, Mike's unfortunate sacking was a blessing in disguise. Their superb return-to-form, A Dramatic Turn of Events was like a breath of fresh air. Finally the melodies and imagination were back. In my opinion, ADToE is by far their best album in this millennium.

You mean, when he sacked himself?

[JMaekelae]

While Octavarium and BCaSL had their moments, I still wasn't completely on board. Weirdly enough, Mike's unfortunate sacking was a blessing in disguise. Their superb return-to-form, A Dramatic Turn of Events was like a breath of fresh air. Finally the melodies and imagination were back. In my opinion, ADToE is by far their best album in this millennium.

You mean, when he sacked himself?

I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used. Mike wanted to take a break from the band, the band didn't agree and decided to find a new drummer instead. I don't think Mike ever believed that would happen. Definitely it was not his decision to quit the band. That's the way I see it. Some might see it differently and that's fine by me.

I honestly don't understand why this should be discussed on this thread, anyway. I merely pointed out that DT got a fresh start without MP. This lead to their most inspired work in more than a decade. Even with the great album it spawned, I still prefer MP as a drummer over MM. A lot. It hurt to see him go, he's a great guy and to me he was the soul of Dream Theater.

[Trav86]

Because you’re leaving out (or don’t understand) an important part. They didn’t just decide to get another drummer. Mike left the band. He posted a long statement on his message board that he quit. I know. I read it the day he posted it. He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff. It’s not a small detail, it’s a very big one.

[bosk1]

I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used.

  Nobody is "intimidated" by your words.  You simply used the wrong words, and were properly questioned about that. 

[BeatriceNB]

[...]
In retrospect both albums have strengths and weaknesses but consider this, would you like to listen on the
upcoming tour ASoC, ES and ItNoG or songs like Build me Up and Break me Down and Outcry..they're is no comparison.

I personally take Build Me Up over any Train Of Thought song no doubt. And Outcry is easily one of their best songs, with an amazing instrumental section 

For the topic itself, ADTOE is my pick, one of my favourite DT albums and I've loved it since the first time I listened to it. A wonderful and emotional ride. TOT has never left my bottom 4 ranking (but I prefer it to Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Scenes any day)

[JMaekelae]

He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.

And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot.  How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.

[Kotowboy]

Train Of Thought was the album that got me into the band. 

As for albums which debuted a new member?

Images & Words : James First Album
Scenes From A Memory : Jordan's first album
A Dramatic Turn Of Events : Mangini's first album.


 

I still prefer MP as a drummer over MM. A lot. It hurt to see him go, he's a great guy and to me he was the soul of Dream Theater.

Yes. MP was my fave member of the band until the split. Then did he ever show his true colours...

[Trav86]

He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.

And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot.  How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.

Jesus, why is this difficult for you? They didn’t fire him.

Mike: we take a hiatus or I have to quit
DT: we don’t want to take a hiatus
Mike: ok, I quit.

Fuck 
 
That isn’t firing someone. I’ve been in similar situations as a supervisor at work. I was in the position of DT when someone threatened to quit. I didn’t give them what they wanted, and they quit. I didn’t fire them.

[Kotowboy]

I imagine it's easier for the MP Warrior to say DT fired him 'just for helping out another band' than to admit Portnoy did anything wrong at all.

[Trav86]

I imagine it's easier for the MP Warrior to say DT fired him 'just for helping out another band' than to admit Portnoy did anything wrong at all.

I think you’re right. It’s the same thing we see in U.S. politics these days. People lie to themselves enough that they believe it.

[hefdaddy42]

I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used.

I have absolutely no ideea why you think anyone is intimidated about the words you use.

Mike wanted to take a break from the band, the band didn't agree and decided to find a new drummer instead. I don't think Mike ever believed that would happen. Definitely it was not his decision to quit the band. That's the way I see it. Some might see it differently and that's fine by me.

You see it wrong. 

The reason they decided to find a new drummer is because they wanted to still exist as a band after MP quit.  He told the band he wanted a 5 year break.  They took some time apart, and he dropped his request to 1 year.  They said, "We aren't taking a break.  We're going to work.  Are you coming or not?"  He said, "No."

[The Letter M]

Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.

Wednesday September 8th 2010
 
I am about to write something I never imagined I'd ever write:
 
 
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.
 
To many people this will come as a complete shock, and will also likely be misunderstood by some, but please believe me that it is not a hasty decision...it is something I have struggled with for the last year or so....
 
After having had such amazing experiences playing with Hail, Transatlantic and Avenged Sevenfold this past year, I have sadly come to the conclusion that I have recently had more fun and better personal relations with these other projects than I have for a while now in Dream Theater...
 
Please don't misinterpret me, I love the DT guys dearly and have a long history, friendship and bond that runs incredibly deep with them...it's just that I think we are in serious need of a little break...
 
Dream Theater was always my baby...and I nurtured that baby every single day and waking moment of my life since 1985...24/7, 365...never taking time off from DT's never-ending responsibilites (even when the band was "off" between cycles)...working overtime and way beyond the call of duty that most sane people ever would do for a band...
 
But I've come to the conclusion that the DT machine was starting to burn me out...and I really needed a break from the band in order to save my relationship with the other members and keep my DT spirit hungry and inspired.
 
We have been on an endless write/record/tour cycle for almost 20 years now (of which I have overseen EVERY aspect without a break) and while a few months apart from each other here & there over the years has been much needed and helpful, I honestly hoped the band could simply agree with me to taking a bit of a "hiatus" to recharge our batteries and "save me from ourselves"...
 
 
Sadly, in discussing this with the guys, they determined they do not share my feelings and have decided to continue without me rather than take a breather...I even offered to do some occasional work throughout 2011 against my initial wishes, but it was not to be...
 
 
While it truly hurts for me to even think of a Dream Theater without Mike Portnoy (hell, my father named the band!!), I do not want to stand in their way...so I have decided to sacrifice myself and simply leave the band so as to not hold them back against their wishes....
 
Strangely enough, I just read an interview that I recently did that asked me about the future of DT and I talked about "always following your heart and being true to yourself"...sadly I must say that at this particular moment, my heart is not with Dream Theater...and I would simply be "going through the motions", and would honestly NOT be true to myself if I stayed for the sake of obligation without taking the break I felt I needed.
 
I wish the guys the best and hope the music and legacy we created together is enjoyed by fans for decades to come...I am proud of every album we made, every song we wrote and every show we played....
 
I'm sorry to all the disappointed DT fans around the world...I really tried to salvage the situation and make it work...I honestly just wanted a break (not a split)...but happiness cannot be forced, it needs to come from within....
 
You DT fans are the greatest fans in the world and as you all know, I have always busted my ass for you guys and I hope that you will stay with me on my future musical journey, wherever it may lead me....(and as you all know my work ethic, there will surely be no shortage of future MP projects!)
 
Sadly...
Your fearless ex-leader and drummer,
MP

Mike left the band - the band did not fire him. Mike made the decision. Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.

-Marc.

[TAC]

It’s still literally one of the most amazing things I’ve ever read. It was really a seismic blow.

[Lonk]

Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.

"save me from ourselves"...

I'm sure there is a "MP wrote PBD" joke in there somewhere.

[pg1067]

He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.

And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot.  How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.

LOL...what?

In his own word:  "After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater… the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century."

He was not sacked/fired/given the boot.  He quit of his own volition.  Why did he quit?  He quit because he wanted the band to pursue a particular course of action, and none of the four other band members agreed.  He had a choice between (1) quitting and (2) not quitting and pursuing the course of action that the majority of the band wanted to pursue.  He chose option #1; he quit.

[IgnotusPerIgnotium]

I personally take Build Me Up over any Train Of Thought song no doubt. And Outcry is easily one of their best songs, with an amazing instrumental section 

For the topic itself, ADTOE is my pick, one of my favourite DT albums and I've loved it since the first time I listened to it. A wonderful and emotional ride. TOT has never left my bottom 4 ranking (but I prefer it to Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Scenes any day)

Well nobody is perfect But I can appreciate another fan's tastes. It's what make's it fun! Outcry's instrumental section is great and to be fair ADToE does manage to keep the flame alive, for what it was back then. At least it's better than DT12 -imo!

[darkshade]

ADTOE is the dying gasp of a bygone era.

[Kotowboy]

Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.

Yes. I'm sure the abundance of ME and *I* in his statements became a meme around here.

" *I* tried to rejoin the band FOR YOU GUYS (aka I f-ed up and now I dont have either band) but THEY wont let me. (because they already made the doc and signed all the legal stuff to get mangini in the band as a full member). Ah well it's in THEIR court now. (aka it's all my fault but I can't admit that). "

[Dedalus]

It's a shame the other four guys have their own opinions about what's best for Mike Portnoy's band. 

[hefdaddy42]

It's a shame the other four guys have their own opinions about what's best for Mike Portnoy's band. 

[JMaekelae]

Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."

If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.

And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.

[Dedalus]

Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."

If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.

And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.

In terms of logic you are objectively wrong. And pg1067 has already demonstrated this.

[wolfking]

Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory?  He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking."