YOUR pct of chances that MP EVER returns to DT

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

There's no doubt that MP playing with DT would be PR gold.

Yeah, but PR gold does not mean that it would be beneficial for either party. It would mostly be beneficial for the handful of fans that have lots of free time in their hands and they decide to pour it into constantly posting stuff to the effect of "DT died when MP left". For the band? Sure, it would definitely get attention and the prog world (which happens to be really small if you look at it from a greater perspective) would circle around it for a while but DT is no Pink Floyd. We would not be getting any sort of epic world-turning event if, by any means of miracles and unexpected turns of fate, MP came back.

Call me a party bummer, but either way I cannot see any sort of use in discussing something that is not going to happen. But hey, maybe that's just me tired of discussing the same thing over and over for the past 11 years; although this time around clearly the joke is on me for exploring and contributing to a thread that is speculating the chances of MP coming back to the band lol.

[Stadler]

Is there any substance to the detail "MP wouldn't want to play Mangini's songs"? or just speculation / assumption? it's not that Mangini played on one or two albums that bombed and stinked, he's at his fifth album and all were at the very least nicely received, with the obvious Astonishing exception.

Also, MP doesn't look to me that ego-striken or vindicative to assume he would never, ever play someone else's songs. It's DT, it's not Sabbath with / without Ozzy, can you imagine MP returning, the band playing Breaking All Illusions and everyone going "oh shit, what a dumb choice, we want to hear Portnoy songs"? come on....

MP has said as much. From memory, it was with regards to Derek playing Acid Rain. Mike said, and I'll have to paraphrase, "I told him that I understand he wouldn't want to play any of Jordan's parts because I wouldn't want to play Mangini's parts, but the crowd would go crazy for it." Later, and I forget the context, it may have been whether Sons of Apollo would play any other DT songs other than Falling Into Infinity songs, Mike said, and again, paraphrasing here, "Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's parts as I have playing The Astonishing!"

So yeah, not a flat out refusal, but let's be real, there would be a real struggle to make it happen if he ever rejoined.

Then again, Slash is playing a ton of Chinese Democracy songs and Axl even pulled out Velvet Revolver's "Slither" but they also have a much more limited catalog and a few millions dollars more PER HOUR on the line.

"Wanting to" and "actually doing" are not the same thing.   And I wouldn't put one statement meant to make a point as gospel truth given the actual premise and a yes/no decision requirement.   

The list of Slash/Sammy Hagar/Bruce Dickinson's are far longer than the lists of David Lee Roth/Ian Gillans/Jon Andersons.    And if you note, those are all SINGERS. Singing someone else's WORDS may be a different matter since "subject matter" is a component there as well.

If we want other instruments, both Ace and Peter played stuff that they weren't on.  Adrian Smith plays on stuff he didn't record.  Steve Howe plays several Trevor Rabin songs, by all accounts against his first choice.  Rick Wakeman plays anything you put in front of him. 

Can we really name a drummer that has flat out refused to play that which came before him?   MAYBE Bill Bruford in Crimson (though he did play Schizoid Man). 

[Madman Shepherd]

C'mon man, can you honestly say you think Mike would have no problem or even very little problem doing that? He couldn't even say Mike Mangini's in interviews for the longest time (or maybe he still never has), let alone play his parts.

Granted, I don't think he has made any statement regarding it in a few years and he seems to have mellowed out, but all evidence points to a big fat NO WAY.

[Stadler]

All I can honestly say is "I don't know". 

Maybe it's my experience, maybe it's something more universal, but I do know that there are decisions that CANNOT be made other than in that moment.   What are the trade-offs?  What are the discussions around this point? 

Hell, when I saw Page and Plant - you know, those Zeppelin guys - Robert Plant sang a Coverdale/Page song (Shake My Tree).  Why in God's name would the greatest front man of all time, the Rock God himself, deign to sing a song written by a man he himself called "David Coverversion".   Nothing to gain, everything to lose, and yet...     Anything is possible under the right circumstances, and I choose to give Mike the opportunity to make that decision for himself when the time comes.

[hefdaddy42]

I guess of the options here (which don't entirely make sense to me) I would go with the 25% (anything could happen).

But it's not going to happen, unless MM decides to leave the band before the rest of the guys are ready to hang it up.

[pg1067]

DT's trajectory was constantly going up while MP was in the band.

That depends on what measures you use.  Given that the last two MP albums are generally considered to be at the bottom of most folks' album rankings, that's at least one measure that was NOT going up.

The last album with MP was the highest charting album of theirs to date, in the US.

While that's true, chart position fluctuated over MP's term.  Albums from I&W through BC&SL hit the following positions in the U.S.:  61, 32, 52, 73, 46, 53, 36, 19, 6.  What that means is that the two albums generally regarded as two of their best were the two worst-charting albums during MP's tenure, while the last two albums, which are generally regarded as two of the worst, were the two best-charting albums.  Also, if you look at SC through DOT, the albums charted at 19, 6, 8, 7, 11, 24.  The last six albums are their six highest charting albums.  Is that because DT is more popular than ever or is producing its best work?  I suspect there's something a bit more random at work.

Also, according to sales data cited and sourced on Wikipedia, DT's six best selling albums were I&W through TOT, while BC&SL (the band's highest-charting album) was its worst seller since WDADU (and SC did only slightly better).  In other words, according to this data, the sales trajectory from SDOIT through BC&SL was doing the exact opposite of going up.

Since he left, they may not have lost popularity, but their popularity has remained relatively the same since, and not increased from my perspective.

I'd say that, in terms of chart performance, that's true.  However, according to the data mentioned above, DOT, outsold BC&SL by more than 2 to 1.

[gzarruk]

Is there any substance to the detail "MP wouldn't want to play Mangini's songs"? or just speculation / assumption? it's not that Mangini played on one or two albums that bombed and stinked, he's at his fifth album and all were at the very least nicely received, with the obvious Astonishing exception.

Also, MP doesn't look to me that ego-striken or vindicative to assume he would never, ever play someone else's songs. It's DT, it's not Sabbath with / without Ozzy, can you imagine MP returning, the band playing Breaking All Illusions and everyone going "oh shit, what a dumb choice, we want to hear Portnoy songs"? come on....

MP has said as much. From memory, it was with regards to Derek playing Acid Rain. Mike said, and I'll have to paraphrase, "I told him that I understand he wouldn't want to play any of Jordan's parts because I wouldn't want to play Mangini's parts, but the crowd would go crazy for it." Later, and I forget the context, it may have been whether Sons of Apollo would play any other DT songs other than Falling Into Infinity songs, Mike said, and again, paraphrasing here, "Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's parts as I have playing The Astonishing!"

So yeah, not a flat out refusal, but let's be real, there would be a real struggle to make it happen if he ever rejoined.

Yeah, I remember both examples you're citing. Just a little correction on the bolded, it was back when MP announced the Shattered Fortress tour he was going to do and the band lineup hadn't been revealed yet. Coincidentially, he had just announced the start of a new band with Derek, so people asked him on Facebook if Derek was going to be the keyboardist for the Shattered Fortress tour, and that's when Mike said Derek is as interested in playing Jordan's parts as he is interested in playing anything from The Astonishing.

As a fun side note, Derek isn't even as interested in playing his own DT parts either. There was an interview back after the first SOA album had been released where he was asked about playing Anna Lee live and he said he has no desire to play that one

[Madman Shepherd]

All I can honestly say is "I don't know". 

Maybe it's my experience, maybe it's something more universal, but I do know that there are decisions that CANNOT be made other than in that moment.   What are the trade-offs?  What are the discussions around this point? 

Hell, when I saw Page and Plant - you know, those Zeppelin guys - Robert Plant sang a Coverdale/Page song (Shake My Tree).  Why in God's name would the greatest front man of all time, the Rock God himself, deign to sing a song written by a man he himself called "David Coverversion".   Nothing to gain, everything to lose, and yet...     Anything is possible under the right circumstances, and I choose to give Mike the opportunity to make that decision for himself when the time comes.

Well yeah. Obviously the proper answer for anyone is "I don't know." I'm just saying that MP has offered multiple examples of why he wouldn't and zero examples of why he would. So based on that alone, then no, he would not play any Mangini songs. That said, you offered some examples of how it is possible and I offered some too. I bet if MP were to answer honestly, even he would have to say "I don't know."

[Stadler]

All I can honestly say is "I don't know". 

Maybe it's my experience, maybe it's something more universal, but I do know that there are decisions that CANNOT be made other than in that moment.   What are the trade-offs?  What are the discussions around this point? 

Hell, when I saw Page and Plant - you know, those Zeppelin guys - Robert Plant sang a Coverdale/Page song (Shake My Tree).  Why in God's name would the greatest front man of all time, the Rock God himself, deign to sing a song written by a man he himself called "David Coverversion".   Nothing to gain, everything to lose, and yet...     Anything is possible under the right circumstances, and I choose to give Mike the opportunity to make that decision for himself when the time comes.

Well yeah. Obviously the proper answer for anyone is "I don't know." I'm just saying that MP has offered multiple examples of why he wouldn't and zero examples of why he would. So based on that alone, then no, he would not play any Mangini songs. That said, you offered some examples of how it is possible and I offered some too. I bet if MP were to answer honestly, even he would have to say "I don't know."

Not necessarily you, but there are people here that are not allowing for Mike to say "I don't know".  At least in terms of the language used, there is no grey area, he WILL NOT play that material, as if they know something we don't.   There are just too many examples of people finding some different way of looking at things later in life that I'm more a "never say never" guy.

[gzarruk]

I want to see a two drummer tour where Mike P plays the songs from the Mangini era and Mike M plays the songs from the Portnoy era.

[Kotowboy]

I wonder how many more albums they have left in them ? Jordan is in his 60s and Mangini is not far behind. An all acoustic album on the horizon ?

15 albums is a nice round number but obviously i don't think they should call it a day just yet.

I also don't think they will last 5 more albums. One every 3 years is another 15 years and Jordan will be 80.

Finally Free If one more member leaves the band I think they will stop.

[DTwwbwMP]

I wonder how many more albums they have left in them ? Jordan is in his 60s and Mangini is not far behind.
An all acoustic album on the horizon ?

 
I hope to hell NOT! They already "jumped the Shark" with the "astonishing" Let's not do that again. An scoustic tour? Yes, that could be interesting, but that's as far as that should go.

[Kotowboy]

Spoiler Alert : Not everyone HATED The Astonishing.

[DTwwbwMP]

All I can honestly say is "I don't know". 

Maybe it's my experience, maybe it's something more universal, but I do know that there are decisions that CANNOT be made other than in that moment.   What are the trade-offs?  What are the discussions around this point? 

Hell, when I saw Page and Plant - you know, those Zeppelin guys - Robert Plant sang a Coverdale/Page song (Shake My Tree).  Why in God's name would the greatest front man of all time, the Rock God himself, deign to sing a song written by a man he himself called "David Coverversion".   Nothing to gain, everything to lose, and yet...     Anything is possible under the right circumstances, and I choose to give Mike the opportunity to make that decision for himself when the time comes.

Well yeah. Obviously the proper answer for anyone is "I don't know." I'm just saying that MP has offered multiple examples of why he wouldn't and zero examples of why he would. So based on that alone, then no, he would not play any Mangini songs. That said, you offered some examples of how it is possible and I offered some too. I bet if MP were to answer honestly, even he would have to say "I don't know."

Not necessarily you, but there are people here that are not allowing for Mike to say "I don't know".  At least in terms of the language used, there is no grey area, he WILL NOT play that material, as if they know something we don't.   There are just too many examples of people finding some different way of looking at things later in life that I'm more a "never say never" guy.

Wouldn't hate the idea of a Dream Theater "co-headline bill" with themselves
First set = 75 minutes of MM era set (w MM)
second set & encore = 100 minute set of MP era (w MP)

[DTwwbwMP]

Spoiler Alert : Not everyone HATED The Astonishing.

VERY true, but it was certainly not received well universally. 

[DTwwbwMP]

Finally Free If one more member leaves the band I think they will stop.

It really would depend on the "member". I agree if JP hanged it up they'd be done, but any of the others (some much more than others) are very replaceable.

[bosk1]

Not sure how The Astonishing is somehow "jumping the shark," since it was actually a very counter-popular move for them to make regardless of how the album ended up being received.  That statement makes no sense.

[DTwwbwMP]

Not sure how The Astonishing is somehow "jumping the shark," since it was actually a very counter-popular move for them to make regardless of how the album ended up being received.  That statement makes no sense.

As was that HD episode, no? Maybe I'm wrong.

[IDontNotDoThings]

I wonder how many more albums they have left in them ?

WWRD: Rush's last major tour was in celebration of the 40th anniversary of their debut album. Applying the same logic to Dream Theater, the 40th anniversary of When Dream & Day Unite is in 2029, so I think they have about 3 albums left in them after View.

Obviously I'd hope for more, but 18 albums is a nice number.

[octobuss]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

[pg1067]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

Some folks homer in their first at bat.  And then.....

Not sure how The Astonishing is somehow "jumping the shark," since it was actually a very counter-popular move for them to make regardless of how the album ended up being received.  That statement makes no sense.

As was that HD episode, no? Maybe I'm wrong.

The interesting thing is that the shark episode was the third of a three-part series of episodes at the start of the show's fifth season, and the show went on to run for eleven seasons, so....

[BeatriceNB]

Spoiler Alert : Not everyone HATED The Astonishing.

VERY true, but it was certainly not received well universally.

Loud minority. Unlike with two of DT albums (Images and Scenes), people who appreciate an album (without considering it the greatest thing ever), will rarely talk about it, or will find praise redundant. If you check the comments in TA songs, many people are praising Mangini and LaBrie too. The album had many positive reviews, and to my knowledge, it sold well (same for the tour).
It doesn't help a lot of people, and I don't mean this in a pretentious way, don't understand Musical Theatre tropes and how the "albums" are made (for example, lengthy albums are normal, and fun fact: Hamilton, insanely popular and considered amazing, is longer than The Astonishing in length).

I want to see a two drummer tour where Mike P plays the songs from the Mangini era and Mike M plays the songs from the Portnoy era.

Imagine Breaking All Illusions with all those 30 y/o RLKK fills... torture 

[Dream Team]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

Hoping this won’t be your best effort if you plan on hanging around . . .

[Trav86]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

Hoping this won’t be your best effort if you plan on hanging around . . .

 

[MarkFitDT]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

To re-unite Nightmare Cinema wouldn't you have to involve Derek instead of Jordan?

[Dublagent66]

How about this?

Mike Portnoy, John Petrucci, John Myung, Jordan Rudess...
Reunite, record and tour as...

Nightmare Cinema!

They just take the old joke and make it for real.

All instrumental. New material, and some of the instrumental DT, and some of the collective solo releases from years back, even some LTE.

To re-unite Nightmare Cinema wouldn't you have to involve Derek instead of Jordan?

Good point.  JR was never a member of Nightmare Cinema.  Not that a reunion would ever happen anyway in that regard.

[octobuss]

Well Nightmare Cinema was never really a 'band", so I don't think it would have to have Sherinian for it to make sense. It was just a fun thing they'd do sometimes.

As much as I would love it I just can't see MP ever rejoining DT, unless it's for a one off event in NYC, like a charity event per se.
Especially considering Labrie, and how Mangini is just the drummer now, it just doesn't seem in the cards, and we're all over it, right?
Unless Mangini wanted to retire and teach full time again?

So... I could imagine MP pitching an idea to reunite in a sort of typically MP tongue-in-cheek sort of way, as Nightmare Cinema, the closest thing to a DT reunion.

Also I am like joking .... but come on, it would be hilarious, AND awesome.
And god no, I am not suggesting Portnoy on Bass, Petrucci on Drums etc... just the name would be the "joke", a REFERENCE to DT, but a full real album, tour, etc. Fun.

Or it could just play out as a whole new project, no DT references at all, but with the 4 of them.
Imagine a fully instrumental "DT" album. 80 minutes of "Stream of Consciousness".
A more likely scenario over him actually ever rejoining. IMO

[TAC]

No offence 8B, but I cringe at the mere mention of Nightmare Cinema. I liken the whole FII album and tour cycle like a person's gawky pimple faced braces wearing tube socks pulled up preteen years.

Save for the Christmas '98 shows. Those were excellent.

[BeatriceNB]

Well Nightmare Cinema was never really a 'band", so I don't think it would have to have Sherinian for it to make sense. It was just a fun thing they'd do sometimes.

As much as I would love it I just can't see MP ever rejoining DT, unless it's for a one off event in NYC, like a charity event per se.
Especially considering Labrie, and how Mangini is just the drummer now, it just doesn't seem in the cards, and we're all over it, right?
Unless Mangini wanted to retire and teach full time again?

So... I could imagine MP pitching an idea to reunite in a sort of typically MP tongue-in-cheek sort of way, as Nightmare Cinema, the closest thing to a DT reunion.

Also I am like joking .... but come on, it would be hilarious, AND awesome.
And god no, I am not suggesting Portnoy on Bass, Petrucci on Drums etc... just the name would be the "joke", a REFERENCE to DT, but a full real album, tour, etc. Fun.

Or it could just play out as a whole new project, no DT references at all, but with the 4 of them.
Imagine a fully instrumental "DT" album. 80 minutes of "Stream of Consciousness".
A more likely scenario over him actually ever rejoining. IMO

We already got LTE 3 which is the same sans Myung, and I think it was enough to play the nostalgia card (both for them and the fans). Petrucci also recorded his second solo album with Portnoy. I think they got the need to play together off their system.

On a more personal note, I would love an instrumental project with Mangini, Petrucci, Myung and Rudess.

[axeman90210]

A few thoughts on the various discussions so far:


- I don't think there's essentially any chance of MM getting the boot in order to make room for MP to come back. I get the sense that interpersonal relationships in the band are generally in a good place right now and they all seem to be comfortable with the dynamics in place.

- If the band was on what they knew ahead of time to be a farewell tour, I would be surprised if MP didn't get up on stage to play a song at the NYC show or something like that. His relationship with 3/4 of the other members is good enough that I think JLB would live with a one-off song performance even if it might not be his personal preference.

- If MM left the band of his own volition and the rest of the guys wanted to continue on with tour cycles and continuing to record new music I think there's a decent chance that MP could be brought back into the fold (though not with the same degree of control over certain things that he had once upon a time). I also wouldn't be surprised if the band sought to find a new drummer either though.

- If MM left the band of his own volition and the rest of the guys wanted to do one final farewell tour for the fans, I think MP would be the overwhelming favorite to be behind the kit. I think MP would ultimately agree to play a MM era song or two if that's what was needed to make things happen.

[TAC]

Agreed on all points, brother.

[Dream Team]

No offence 8B, but I cringe at the mere mention of Nightmare Cinema. I liken the whole FII album and tour cycle like a person's gawky pimple faced braces wearing tube socks pulled up preteen years.

Save for the Christmas '98 shows. Those were excellent.

Nice analogy!

[bosk1]

- If the band was on what they knew ahead of time to be a farewell tour, I would be surprised if MP didn't get up on stage to play a song at the NYC show or something like that. His relationship with 3/4 of the other members is good enough that I think JLB would live with a one-off song performance even if it might not be his personal preference.

I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that James would have a problem with him coming back even for a full tour if it were a farewell tour.

[MoraWintersoul]

- If the band was on what they knew ahead of time to be a farewell tour, I would be surprised if MP didn't get up on stage to play a song at the NYC show or something like that. His relationship with 3/4 of the other members is good enough that I think JLB would live with a one-off song performance even if it might not be his personal preference.

I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that James would have a problem with him coming back even for a full tour if it were a farewell tour.

I don't get that sense either. At their ages especially and in service of the business of the band they both love so much, I have a feeling they would just shake hands and say "sup" as if nothing ever happened.

NOW. Maybe some fans on here would prefer JLB to keep to himself because they're pissed about what MP's said about him over the years, and maybe some MP fans would prefer if MP would keep to himself because JLB didn't reach out to MP/didn't let us know if he did, and they see that as unduly cold. But I have a feeling both of those factions care more about that stuff than the guys themselves. Before all of that happened they were friends for 25+ years.

[axeman90210]

- If the band was on what they knew ahead of time to be a farewell tour, I would be surprised if MP didn't get up on stage to play a song at the NYC show or something like that. His relationship with 3/4 of the other members is good enough that I think JLB would live with a one-off song performance even if it might not be his personal preference.

I could be wrong, but I don't get the sense that James would have a problem with him coming back even for a full tour if it were a farewell tour.

Neither do I, but to me in this scenario MM is still in the band and they know ahead of time it's a farewell tour. I don't think they'd kick Mangini just to make room for MP for a farewell tour. Whereas the last bullet point in my post is that if the band wanted to do a farewell tour but MM wasn't in the picture anymore (either chose to leave unexpectedly or had something happen where he couldn't serve as drummer anymore), I think that even JLB would get on board with bringing back MP rather than finding a new drummer just for one last tour.