YOUR pct of chances that MP EVER returns to DT

[Dedalus]

The drums would probably sound like the bass from And Justice for All.

So, like A Dramatic Turn Of Events?

For both albums, the newcomer is lower in the mix than everyone else. Hmmm...

huh?

Newstead's bass in justice is either mixed out/inaudible on every track. I guess you could say that maybe Petrucci reacted a bit to MP's hot drum mixes in the previous DT records and wanted MM slotted into the mix more reasonably. But like I just turned on Bridges in the Sky and I hear lots of cymbals, snare, and kick drum heads. But not sure what this post is about

Obviously you can't get away with mixing the drums completely out, but they are WAY too low in the mix, moreso than any other rock or metal album by a major label band I can think of.

Of course you can. Listen to Billie Jean without drums. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_lGnSauan8

 

[DTwwbwMP]

Very nice post, Bosk. Honest and full of insight that comes from knowing the guys.

 

[KevShmev]

Obviously you can't get away with mixing the drums completely out, but they are WAY too low in the mix, moreso than any other rock or metal album by a major label band I can think of.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that is rubbish.  They are mixed low compared to how Portnoy's always were, and I have voiced my issues with the muddy mix of ADTOE in general (especially when it rocks), but listen to 95% of rock albums from the 70's, the decade of the dead drum sound, and you'll hear a shit ton of albums where the drums are mixed way too low.

[bosk1]

Agreed.  And you don't even have to go back to the '70s or '80s to find albums where the drums are mixed lower.  There are plenty in recent times. 

[MirrorMask]

One example that is common knowledge is, during the Astonishing tour, JP shared with me the set list for the then-upcoming I&W and Beyond tour.  Another that is not common knowledge is that, prior to Covid, the band were working on a tour with another pretty big name act.  Unfortunately, that probably isn't going to happen now.

Thanks!

[Kotowboy]

Agreed.  And you don't even have to go back to the '70s or '80s to find albums where the drums are mixed lower.  There are plenty in recent times.

The album One Cure Fits All by Therapy? The drums are WAY too quiet. At one point in the song " Deluded Son " - the guitars are mixed so loud the drums are virtually silent.

[Volante99]

The ONLY way I see this happening is if Mangini steps aside or retires.
We know Portnoy wants back in but he keeps himself occupied with other bands and I think he has too much pride to ask at this point. On the flip side I don’t see the band firing Mangini. The band appears to be Petrucci’s baby, he pretty much has near full control on the direction of that band and he has a drummer who will go with the flow and is capable of playing anything Petrucci needs, musically. There’s zero incentive for DT to bring MP back besides fan service. Yes, JP and MP are buds but that’s what weekend projects like LTE and solo albums are for.

AT BEST I think we might get a “kitchen sink” tour similar to the Van Halen/Van Hagar plan towards the end of the bands run where Portnoy plays Portnoy songs and Mangini plays Mangini songs- something that gives the fans what they want AND is low commitment.

[darkshade]

Obviously you can't get away with mixing the drums completely out, but they are WAY too low in the mix, moreso than any other rock or metal album by a major label band I can think of.

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but that is rubbish.  They are mixed low compared to how Portnoy's always were, and I have voiced my issues with the muddy mix of ADTOE in general (especially when it rocks), but listen to 95% of rock albums from the 70's, the decade of the dead drum sound, and you'll hear a shit ton of albums where the drums are mixed way too low.

I hear drums just fine from 60s/70s/80s albums, it's all relative to recording technology of the time.
There's no excuse for an album recorded and released in 2011.

[Cool Chris]

We know Portnoy wants back in....

We do?

...I think he has too much pride to ask at this point.

It would take some stones to ask to rejoin a band 10 years after you left when they have been marching along quite well without you.

[Volante99]

We do?

I mean…put it this way I have zero doubt Portnoy would immediately drop what he was doing and abandon not only his other musical projects but probably his own children to get back together with the band he STILL refers to as his “baby”.

[Stadler]

The ONLY way I see this happening is if Mangini steps aside or retires.
We know Portnoy wants back in but he keeps himself occupied with other bands and I think he has too much pride to ask at this point. On the flip side I don’t see the band firing Mangini. The band appears to be Petrucci’s baby, he pretty much has near full control on the direction of that band and he has a drummer who will go with the flow and is capable of playing anything Petrucci needs, musically. There’s zero incentive for DT to bring MP back besides fan service. Yes, JP and MP are buds but that’s what weekend projects like LTE and solo albums are for.

AT BEST I think we might get a “kitchen sink” tour similar to the Van Halen/Van Hagar plan towards the end of the bands run where Portnoy plays Portnoy songs and Mangini plays Mangini songs- something that gives the fans what they want AND is low commitment.

I guess I don't understand these opinions that rely on what other people - who haven't said anything about it that wasn't a press release - feel.  If Bosk - who KNOWS them, to the point of being able to pick up the phone and call them - won't speculate on how they feel about this, why should we?   I don't think we know that Portnoy wants back in.  I also don't know - at this point - anything about what his "pride" will or will not dictate.   People change.  People age.  People come to grips with things.  People evolve.   I've been watching the Transatlantic and Neal Morse documentaries recently and I'm amazed at what I see in those films as Mike being a lot more collaborative and giving in terms of working with those around him.   Twenty years with Neal Morse - not a shrinking violet himself - might have that effect on someone.

[Stadler]

We do?

I mean…put it this way I have zero doubt Portnoy would immediately drop what he was doing and abandon not only his other musical projects but probably his own children to get back together with the band he STILL refers to as his “baby”.

I don't think we can say that with any certainty.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

MP re-joining would be the biggest news of both the prog and metal worlds.
It would increase the band's popularity and presence. It would be a good business decision for both parties.

lolno

[noxon]

There's no doubt that MP playing with DT would be PR gold.

[Volante99]

We do?

I mean…put it this way I have zero doubt Portnoy would immediately drop what he was doing and abandon not only his other musical projects but probably his own children to get back together with the band he STILL refers to as his “baby”.

I don't think we can say that with any certainty.

He wanted back in a month after he left. His position has always been that it’s in the DT camp’s hands. He’s made comments a few years back that, theoretically, by now he’d have gotten his “hiatus” thing out of his system, he wanted the band to get together for his birthday bash, and even recently, with Joey Jordison’s death, he made some “life’s too short” comments, being saddened by the fact that Joey was never able to return to the band he helped found (hint hint, nudge nudge). People do age, people do change but let’s face it, Portnoy has that fan mentality which another poster mentioned in this thread, and there’s no bigger Dream Theater fan than Mike Portnoy. But I digress, we can pretend MP has no interest in returning to the band.

My MAIN point still stands. Whether or not Portnoy wants in; he’s not going to ask for the gig (we can say pride, we can say other reasons). And DT isn’t going to approach him unless Mangini voluntarily quits/retires. That’s where I THINK we are at.

[Kotowboy]

There's no doubt that MP playing with DT would be PR gold.

Just IMAGINE that Press Release !

[Volante99]

There's no doubt that MP playing with DT would be PR gold.

Just IMAGINE that Press Release !

It’s interesting to think about…would it REALLY make a difference to the band from say an album/ticket sales perspective? I’m not really sure if there was a big exodus of fans following Portnoy’s departure. Maybe? I’m my home city they’ve been playing the same theatre for literally the past 25 years. I think at this point the band has its ride or die fans, Portnoy or no Portnoy. Maybe I’m understating Portnoy’s draw, though.

[Kotowboy]

According to the Wiki - Distance Over Time was one of their most successful albums so...

[darkshade]

DT's trajectory was constantly going up while MP was in the band. The last album with MP was the highest charting album of theirs to date, in the US.
Since he left, they may not have lost popularity, but their popularity has remained relatively the same since, and not increased from my perspective.
Outside of sites like this, I also see more negative comments online about the band since MP left, than ever before.
Not from casual fans or non-fans, those have always existed, but from big fans who enjoy(ed) DT's music prior to Mangini joining.

[Trav86]

DT's trajectory was constantly going up while MP was in the band. The last album with MP was the highest charting album of theirs to date, in the US.
Since he left, they may not have lost popularity, but their popularity has remained relatively the same since, and not increased from my perspective.
Outside of sites like this, I also see more negative comments online about the band since MP left, than ever before.
Not from casual fans or non-fans, those have always existed, but from big fans who enjoy(ed) DT's music prior to Mangini joining.

Two things come to mind when reading your post. And I don’t necessarily mean this as an argument, because you’re not wrong, just a couple of thoughts.

1. Yes, their popularity has not risen since MP’s departure. But there is no proof that the rise they had had anything to do with him. There is no proof that the stagnation has anything to do with him. And we don’t know that if he stayed, things would have been just the same.

2. Yes, there are negative comments all over the web about Mangini vs Portnoy. Or people who don’t like DT, post-MP. But we know that isn’t the general consensus. Negative opinions are always louder than the positive ones. If those comments really represented a large percentage of “fans” we would have seen a significant drop in album sales and ticket sales. Which it doesn’t seem like we have. The Astonishing was not as…uhh…prosperous as they probably planned. But people don’t hate it because Portnoy isn’t on there. That’s all. 

[Cool Chris]

He wanted back in a month after he left. His position has always been that it’s in the DT camp’s hands. He’s made comments a few years back that, theoretically, by now he’d have gotten his “hiatus” thing out of his system, he wanted the band to get together for his birthday bash, and even recently, with Joey Jordison’s death, he made some “life’s too short” comments, being saddened by the fact that Joey was never able to return to the band he helped found (hint hint, nudge nudge). People do age, people do change but let’s face it, Portnoy has that fan mentality which another poster mentioned in this thread, and there’s no bigger Dream Theater fan than Mike Portnoy. But I digress, we can pretend MP has no interest in returning to the band.

I wasn't trying to flat out disagree with you. I was just thinking there is some gray area between "I REALLY want back in DT, I can't wait much longer..." and "Yeah, if the opportunity arose, I'd like to rejoin the band..." 

MP re-joining would be the biggest news of both the prog and metal worlds.
It would increase the band's popularity and presence. It would be a good business decision for both parties.

I have no idea what constitutes "news" in the prog/metal world, but I would tend to agree with the first part.

Regarding the second point, sure there'd be a minor bump in popularity and presence. As to being a "good business decision," I think some guys in their late 50s are not going to be as inclined to make decisions like they are Michael Corleone. 

[BeardedGentlemanHistorian]

Rejoining as a permanent member? 0%

Joining them for a reunion show similar to Charles Dominici and Derek Sherinian did for When Dream & Day Reunite? Possible.

[KevShmev]

The ONLY way I see this happening is if Mangini steps aside or retires.
We know Portnoy wants back in but he keeps himself occupied with other bands and I think he has too much pride to ask at this point. On the flip side I don’t see the band firing Mangini. The band appears to be Petrucci’s baby, he pretty much has near full control on the direction of that band and he has a drummer who will go with the flow and is capable of playing anything Petrucci needs, musically. There’s zero incentive for DT to bring MP back besides fan service. Yes, JP and MP are buds but that’s what weekend projects like LTE and solo albums are for.

AT BEST I think we might get a “kitchen sink” tour similar to the Van Halen/Van Hagar plan towards the end of the bands run where Portnoy plays Portnoy songs and Mangini plays Mangini songs- something that gives the fans what they want AND is low commitment.

I guess I don't understand these opinions that rely on what other people - who haven't said anything about it that wasn't a press release - feel.  If Bosk - who KNOWS them, to the point of being able to pick up the phone and call them - won't speculate on how they feel about this, why should we?   I don't think we know that Portnoy wants back in.  I also don't know - at this point - anything about what his "pride" will or will not dictate.   People change.  People age.  People come to grips with things.  People evolve.  I've been watching the Transatlantic and Neal Morse documentaries recently and I'm amazed at what I see in those films as Mike being a lot more collaborative and giving in terms of working with those around him.   Twenty years with Neal Morse - not a shrinking violet himself - might have that effect on someone.

Agreed, but Portnoy was even like that with Neal back in the 00's, even in the latter part of the decade when he was power tripping with DT, which goes back to a point I made years ago that Portnoy is almost like a different person when he is around Neal Morse.   I am sure the power dynamic is a part of it.  Remember the clip from a few years ago (cannot remember which Neal or NMB album it was) where Neal wanted Portnoy to redo a drum part, and Portnoy kind of sighed and said something to the effect of (paraphrasing), "can't you just fix that in post-production?", and Neal fired back that it is better to go back and do it right.  I doubt anyone in DT, even Petrucci, would have had the balls to say something like that to him once he got on his power trip where he was the leader and the one to call the shots.  Portnoy basically had free reign to say and do anything he wanted with DT the last few years and no one was going to stop him, and I don't see any way that he could return and a similar scenario exists.  Even if he and JLB could make peace to where they could work together again, I could see Portnoy returning as a producer being a deal-breaker for James.  I don't see letting Portnoy come back to tell him how and what to sing is a concession he would make.

[bosk1]

DT's trajectory was constantly going up while MP was in the band. The last album with MP was the highest charting album of theirs to date, in the US.
Since he left, they may not have lost popularity, but their popularity has remained relatively the same since, and not increased from my perspective.
Outside of sites like this, I also see more negative comments online about the band since MP left, than ever before.
Not from casual fans or non-fans, those have always existed, but from big fans who enjoy(ed) DT's music prior to Mangini joining.

Two things come to mind when reading your post. And I don’t necessarily mean this as an argument, because you’re not wrong, just a couple of thoughts.

1. Yes, their popularity has not risen since MP’s departure. But there is no proof that the rise they had had anything to do with him. There is no proof that the stagnation has anything to do with him. And we don’t know that if he stayed, things would have been just the same.

2. Yes, there are negative comments all over the web about Mangini vs Portnoy. Or people who don’t like DT, post-MP. But we know that isn’t the general consensus. Negative opinions are always louder than the positive ones. If those comments really represented a large percentage of “fans” we would have seen a significant drop in album sales and ticket sales. Which it doesn’t seem like we have. The Astonishing was not as…uhh…prosperous as they probably planned. But people don’t hate it because Portnoy isn’t on there. That’s all. 

Yes, both of those points are very well taken.  And to add to point #1, yes, BCSL initially charted very high.  But let's not forget that that was only an initial chart position based on preorders and those buying the album the first week of release.  That was largely due to Roadrunner actually having a marketing campaign, and the hype surrounding it being the 10th album and 25th anniversary of the band.  Sales fell off precipitously after that and the majority of fans ranked the album pretty low after hearing it.  It's not like they were on some trajectory to superstardom at the end of Portnoy's tenure that suddenly evaporated after he left.  Far from it. 

[Volante99]

I’d also like to say considering the ever continuing (de)evolution of the music industry, comparing the successes of an album in 2010 vs 2021 is a bit apples and oranges. I also think they were riding a bit of  commercial resurgence wave from Panic Attack being featured in Rock Band 2 which dropped in late 2008- I think that definitely gave Black Clouds a boost.

[Setlist Scotty]

The ONLY way I see this happening is if Mangini steps aside or retires.
We know Portnoy wants back in but he keeps himself occupied with other bands and I think he has too much pride to ask at this point. On the flip side I don’t see the band firing Mangini. The band appears to be Petrucci’s baby, he pretty much has near full control on the direction of that band and he has a drummer who will go with the flow and is capable of playing anything Petrucci needs, musically. There’s zero incentive for DT to bring MP back besides fan service. Yes, JP and MP are buds but that’s what weekend projects like LTE and solo albums are for.

AT BEST I think we might get a “kitchen sink” tour similar to the Van Halen/Van Hagar plan towards the end of the bands run where Portnoy plays Portnoy songs and Mangini plays Mangini songs- something that gives the fans what they want AND is low commitment.

I guess I don't understand these opinions that rely on what other people - who haven't said anything about it that wasn't a press release - feel.  If Bosk - who KNOWS them, to the point of being able to pick up the phone and call them - won't speculate on how they feel about this, why should we?   I don't think we know that Portnoy wants back in.  I also don't know - at this point - anything about what his "pride" will or will not dictate.   People change.  People age.  People come to grips with things.  People evolve.  I've been watching the Transatlantic and Neal Morse documentaries recently and I'm amazed at what I see in those films as Mike being a lot more collaborative and giving in terms of working with those around him.   Twenty years with Neal Morse - not a shrinking violet himself - might have that effect on someone.

Agreed, but Portnoy was even like that with Neal back in the 00's, even in the latter part of the decade when he was power tripping with DT, which goes back to a point I made years ago that Portnoy is almost like a different person when he is around Neal Morse.   I am sure the power dynamic is a part of it.  Remember the clip from a few years ago (cannot remember which Neal or NMB album it was) where Neal wanted Portnoy to redo a drum part, and Portnoy kind of sighed and said something to the effect of (paraphrasing), "can't you just fix that in post-production?", and Neal fired back that it is better to go back and do it right.  I doubt anyone in DT, even Petrucci, would have had the balls to say something like that to him once he got on his power trip where he was the leader and the one to call the shots.  Portnoy basically had free reign to say and do anything he wanted with DT the last few years and no one was going to stop him, and I don't see any way that he could return and a similar scenario exists.  Even if he and JLB could make peace to where they could work together again, I could see Portnoy returning as a producer being a deal-breaker for James.  I don't see letting Portnoy come back to tell him how and what to sing is a concession he would make.

Sorry Kev, but that's the case at all. Sure MP *was* calling a lot of the shots without JP or anyone else disagreeing to the point of vetoing, but that doesn't mean he was calling all of them nor always getting his way. There three publicly known reasons why that this is true: the limits that the band had on how long they would tour for a given leg, the "angry" vocals on ANtR and when MP wanted a hiatus.
• Since JR's been in the band and maybe even before (can't remember off the top of my head), DT's never done a leg of a tour longer than 5-6 weeks. A lot of that could be attributed to JP (see the lyrics to Endless Sacrifice) but probably the other guys, too. MP *loves* being out on the road and has repeatedly gone straight from one tour onto another or intermixing dates with different bands, especially after leaving DT. Had MP had full control of everything in DT, it wouldn't take much to figure that he would push for longer tour legs, especially considering all the cities/markets that DT skip over. In fact, I can remember a typical response he would give when fans would ask why their city was getting skipped this time around, and he would say something to the effect of "we had to skip it because we're going to other cities that we haven't visited yet". Had there not been those limits enforced by JP and perhaps others, I'm sure MP would have pushed to see to it that all those cities were covered.
• When the controversy of his vocals on ANtR came up, he posted on his forum all the steps and variations he, JP and JL went through, largely at the behest of JP before finally coming up with the "angry" vocals that ended up on the album, as opposed to the full on cookie monster that MP wanted to do.
• When MP wanted the hiatus, the band stood up to him.

Now, how many other situations happened where JP and/or others stood up to MP? Who knows, but it stands to reason that there are other instances. In fact, although it happened back in 2003, you could consider the situation where JL resisted MP's suggestion of doing a cover of Ozzy's Revelation Mother Earth to be another example (they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead).

So no, it's not exactly the way you're painting it Kev. Was he *a* leader of the band along with JP? Absolutely. Was he the dictator of the band? No.

[Stadler]

We do?

I mean…put it this way I have zero doubt Portnoy would immediately drop what he was doing and abandon not only his other musical projects but probably his own children to get back together with the band he STILL refers to as his “baby”.

I don't think we can say that with any certainty.

He wanted back in a month after he left. His position has always been that it’s in the DT camp’s hands. He’s made comments a few years back that, theoretically, by now he’d have gotten his “hiatus” thing out of his system, he wanted the band to get together for his birthday bash, and even recently, with Joey Jordison’s death, he made some “life’s too short” comments, being saddened by the fact that Joey was never able to return to the band he helped found (hint hint, nudge nudge). People do age, people do change but let’s face it, Portnoy has that fan mentality which another poster mentioned in this thread, and there’s no bigger Dream Theater fan than Mike Portnoy. But I digress, we can pretend MP has no interest in returning to the band.

My MAIN point still stands. Whether or not Portnoy wants in; he’s not going to ask for the gig (we can say pride, we can say other reasons). And DT isn’t going to approach him unless Mangini voluntarily quits/retires. That’s where I THINK we are at.

How old are you?  Serious question.   I'm 53, with four kids.   In some cases, in MANY cases, what I "wanted" back ten years ago is a footnote in history compared to what I want now.  Not to say that I'm fickle or change my mind, but things evolve.   When I was 43, I had just gotten laid off (thanks Obama) and was scrambling for a job.   I would have taken anything, frankly, because that's what you do to provide for a family.  But my goal, my dream was to get back to GE, a company I had left for not dissimilar reasons to Mike and DT's split.   I was lucky; I got that opportunity, and spent a year in Erie, 250 miles from my family, commuting every weekend.   I wouldn't DREAM of doing that today.  Not because it was bad, or I hate GE, or any of those things, but it's not conducive to my marriage, where my kids are today in THEIR lives, and where I want to be in ten years for myself (RETIRED, bitches!).  It's not that I'm a totally different person - I'm largely the same - but I've distilled down what is important, and realized it's not the job itself, or the company, but what I do IN the job, and with whom I do it.   I'm smarter, I'm more aware, I'm more... in touch. 

Another example: I've got an invite to a golf tournament in a couple weeks for a guy I went to high school with and played hockey with, who died of some cancer or another.   Ten years ago, living in Philly, Mumming, traveling for work, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. Not a shot, fuck those people.   I wasn't great friends with some of those guys, and it wasn't... well, the kids today might call it bullying, I don't, but to put it in language you would understand, maybe there wasn't a lot of respect given me at that time.  Today?  I'm thinking about going.  We're older, we're wiser, we're in different places with different levels of success and self-worth... times change, people change, goals change, what's important changes...I know how to deal with people like that, and if they are stuck in 1985, well, I know how to handle THAT as well.

I think we owe it to these people we look up to to remember that it's NOT 1992 or 2010 anymore.  They, too, are allowed to grow, to learn, to evolve, to refine, to become more aware...

[Stadler]

He wanted back in a month after he left. His position has always been that it’s in the DT camp’s hands. He’s made comments a few years back that, theoretically, by now he’d have gotten his “hiatus” thing out of his system, he wanted the band to get together for his birthday bash, and even recently, with Joey Jordison’s death, he made some “life’s too short” comments, being saddened by the fact that Joey was never able to return to the band he helped found (hint hint, nudge nudge). People do age, people do change but let’s face it, Portnoy has that fan mentality which another poster mentioned in this thread, and there’s no bigger Dream Theater fan than Mike Portnoy. But I digress, we can pretend MP has no interest in returning to the band.

I wasn't trying to flat out disagree with you. I was just thinking there is some gray area between "I REALLY want back in DT, I can't wait much longer..." and "Yeah, if the opportunity arose, I'd like to rejoin the band..." 

Of COURSE there is; most of the world (including the people in it) is very grey, and yet most people seem to look at it as if it is statically black OR white and never to change.  "Well, he said THIS in 2010, therefore..."   We do it in countless ways.   "So and so used the N-word back in college!  Punish him now because he's clearly a racist!"  We as a society consistently define people by their worst, and best, depending on your argument, moments.

[Stadler]

The ONLY way I see this happening is if Mangini steps aside or retires.
We know Portnoy wants back in but he keeps himself occupied with other bands and I think he has too much pride to ask at this point. On the flip side I don’t see the band firing Mangini. The band appears to be Petrucci’s baby, he pretty much has near full control on the direction of that band and he has a drummer who will go with the flow and is capable of playing anything Petrucci needs, musically. There’s zero incentive for DT to bring MP back besides fan service. Yes, JP and MP are buds but that’s what weekend projects like LTE and solo albums are for.

AT BEST I think we might get a “kitchen sink” tour similar to the Van Halen/Van Hagar plan towards the end of the bands run where Portnoy plays Portnoy songs and Mangini plays Mangini songs- something that gives the fans what they want AND is low commitment.

I guess I don't understand these opinions that rely on what other people - who haven't said anything about it that wasn't a press release - feel.  If Bosk - who KNOWS them, to the point of being able to pick up the phone and call them - won't speculate on how they feel about this, why should we?   I don't think we know that Portnoy wants back in.  I also don't know - at this point - anything about what his "pride" will or will not dictate.   People change.  People age.  People come to grips with things.  People evolve.  I've been watching the Transatlantic and Neal Morse documentaries recently and I'm amazed at what I see in those films as Mike being a lot more collaborative and giving in terms of working with those around him.   Twenty years with Neal Morse - not a shrinking violet himself - might have that effect on someone.

Agreed, but Portnoy was even like that with Neal back in the 00's, even in the latter part of the decade when he was power tripping with DT, which goes back to a point I made years ago that Portnoy is almost like a different person when he is around Neal Morse.   I am sure the power dynamic is a part of it.  Remember the clip from a few years ago (cannot remember which Neal or NMB album it was) where Neal wanted Portnoy to redo a drum part, and Portnoy kind of sighed and said something to the effect of (paraphrasing), "can't you just fix that in post-production?", and Neal fired back that it is better to go back and do it right.  I doubt anyone in DT, even Petrucci, would have had the balls to say something like that to him once he got on his power trip where he was the leader and the one to call the shots.  Portnoy basically had free reign to say and do anything he wanted with DT the last few years and no one was going to stop him, and I don't see any way that he could return and a similar scenario exists.  Even if he and JLB could make peace to where they could work together again, I could see Portnoy returning as a producer being a deal-breaker for James.  I don't see letting Portnoy come back to tell him how and what to sing is a concession he would make.

Sorry Kev, but that's the case at all. Sure MP *was* calling a lot of the shots without JP or anyone else disagreeing to the point of vetoing, but that doesn't mean he was calling all of them nor always getting his way. There three publicly known reasons why that this is true: the limits that the band had on how long they would tour for a given leg, the "angry" vocals on ANtR and when MP wanted a hiatus.
• Since JR's been in the band and maybe even before (can't remember off the top of my head), DT's never done a leg of a tour longer than 5-6 weeks. A lot of that could be attributed to JP (see the lyrics to Endless Sacrifice) but probably the other guys, too. MP *loves* being out on the road and has repeatedly gone straight from one tour onto another or intermixing dates with different bands, especially after leaving DT. Had MP had full control of everything in DT, it wouldn't take much to figure that he would push for longer tour legs, especially considering all the cities/markets that DT skip over. In fact, I can remember a typical response he would give when fans would ask why their city was getting skipped this time around, and he would say something to the effect of "we had to skip it because we're going to other cities that we haven't visited yet". Had there not been those limits enforced by JP and perhaps others, I'm sure MP would have pushed to see to it that all those cities were covered.
• When the controversy of his vocals on ANtR came up, he posted on his forum all the steps and variations he, JP and JL went through, largely at the behest of JP before finally coming up with the "angry" vocals that ended up on the album, as opposed to the full on cookie monster that MP wanted to do.
• When MP wanted the hiatus, the band stood up to him.

Now, how many other situations happened where JP and/or others stood up to MP? Who knows, but it stands to reason that there are other instances. In fact, although it happened back in 2003, you could consider the situation where JL resisted MP's suggestion of doing a cover of Ozzy's Revelation Mother Earth to be another example (they ended up doing Diary of a Madman instead).

So no, it's not exactly the way you're painting it Kev. Was he *a* leader of the band along with JP? Absolutely. Was he the dictator of the band? No.

Not to deflect from what is otherwise an excellent post, and certainly not for controversy purposes, but out of curiosity, I would love to know why that song in particular was unacceptable.   Depending on the point of view, there are more... explicit lyrics that James has sung both in covers and original songs.   I love Diary, but I would have LOVED to hear the band play the outro to RME.

[KevShmev]

I never said he was a dictator, so that renders that point moot, and the band pushing back on the hiatus felt like their "come to Jesus" moment where they had enough of being bossed around and put their collective foot down.   

The vocal moment on ANTR ended still being way closer to what Portnoy wanted than what was normal for the band. See: how JLB sang that section on the last tour and then go to listen to legit death growls.  The vocals that ended up on the studio version are far closer to death growls than how JLB sang them.  So, even though there was a slight concession, which was a normal part of the songwriting process, Portnoy still largely got what he wanted in that instance.

The touring thing is pure speculation, and thus fairly irrelevant in this conversation.

I don't expect the members of Portnoy's unofficial legal defense team to agree with me, but that is okay.

[Trav86]

I never said he was a dictator, so that renders that point moot, and the band pushing back on the hiatus felt like their "come to Jesus" moment where they had enough of being bossed around and put their collective foot down.   

The vocal moment on ANTR ended still being way closer to what Portnoy wanted than what was normal for the band. See: how JLB sang that section on the last tour and then go to listen to legit death growls.  The vocals that ended up on the studio version are far closer to death growls than how JLB sang them.  So, even though there was a slight concession, which was a normal part of the songwriting process, Portnoy still largely got what he wanted in that instance.

The touring thing is pure speculation, and thus fairly irrelevant in this conversation.

I don't expect the members of Portnoy's unofficial legal defense team to agree with me, but that is okay.

All of this. Especially the bolded part 

[Stadler]

I never said he was a dictator, so that renders that point moot, and the band pushing back on the hiatus felt like their "come to Jesus" moment where they had enough of being bossed around and put their collective foot down.   

The vocal moment on ANTR ended still being way closer to what Portnoy wanted than what was normal for the band. See: how JLB sang that section on the last tour and then go to listen to legit death growls.  The vocals that ended up on the studio version are far closer to death growls than how JLB sang them.  So, even though there was a slight concession, which was a normal part of the songwriting process, Portnoy still largely got what he wanted in that instance.

The touring thing is pure speculation, and thus fairly irrelevant in this conversation.

I don't expect the members of Portnoy's unofficial legal defense team to agree with me, but that is okay.

All of this. Especially the bolded part 

I can't speak to anyone else, but being a lawyer and seeing the "legal", this isn't about DEFENDING Mike Portnoy.  It's about incorporating more information - ALL the information - not just that which furthers the perception.  Not truth, but perception.  I'm not even saying you or Kev are wrong; you may be right.   It's far more about pushing back on what reads to be 'written in stone certainty', and what doesn't seem to have very much if any allowance for human nature.   Maybe it's me, and all the therapy, but don't any of you change your mind? Change your analysis of a situation?  Change your reaction to things?   Change your priority on things?  Change your approach to certain circumstances?    Maybe it's because I've gone through a divorce, but it's a LOT of work, and a LOT of angst to hang on to things from ten years ago like they were yesterday.

And it's not like there's not precedent for this; Steve Harris.  He's clearly evolved, and learned, and grown to the point that Maiden is actually better and more stable now than it was back in the day, before Dickinson leaving.

[KevShmev]

I can't speak to anyone else, but being a lawyer and seeing the "legal", this isn't about DEFENDING Mike Portnoy.  It's about incorporating more information - ALL the information - not just that which furthers the perception.  Not truth, but perception.  I'm not even saying you or Kev are wrong; you may be right.   It's far more about pushing back on what reads to be 'written in stone certainty', and what doesn't seem to have very much if any allowance for human nature.   Maybe it's me, and all the therapy, but don't any of you change your mind? Change your analysis of a situation?  Change your reaction to things?   Change your priority on things?  Change your approach to certain circumstances?    Maybe it's because I've gone through a divorce, but it's a LOT of work, and a LOT of angst to hang on to things from ten years ago like they were yesterday.

And it's not like there's not precedent for this; Steve Harris.  He's clearly evolved, and learned, and grown to the point that Maiden is actually better and more stable now than it was back in the day, before Dickinson leaving.

All fair points, and to circle back to someone I have said a few times lately, I do think Mike Portnoy has seemingly mellowed a bit as he has gotten older.  Being in 191 bands with Neal Morse helps , as, like I said, he just seems different when he is around Neal, who seems to have a calming influence on him.  Maybe that would translate if he were ever to return to Dream Theater. Hard to say. 

As we have discussed, there would likely have to be concessions made for him to return to the band.  As I said earlier, I don't see any way JLB would want him to return as a producer; on the flip side, I don't see Portnoy wanting to come back and play too many songs from the Mangini era live, so the band would probably have to come to some agreement about how set lists are devised rather than returning to the "Portnoy writes them all" method.  I think Portnoy knows that he couldn't return and run the ship as he sees fit again, but I don't think he'd come back without being granted control over certain things.

[MirrorMask]

Is there any substance to the detail "MP wouldn't want to play Mangini's songs"? or just speculation / assumption? it's not that Mangini played on one or two albums that bombed and stinked, he's at his fifth album and all were at the very least nicely received, with the obvious Astonishing exception.

Also, MP doesn't look to me that ego-striken or vindicative to assume he would never, ever play someone else's songs. It's DT, it's not Sabbath with / without Ozzy, can you imagine MP returning, the band playing Breaking All Illusions and everyone going "oh shit, what a dumb choice, we want to hear Portnoy songs"? come on....

[Madman Shepherd]

Is there any substance to the detail "MP wouldn't want to play Mangini's songs"? or just speculation / assumption? it's not that Mangini played on one or two albums that bombed and stinked, he's at his fifth album and all were at the very least nicely received, with the obvious Astonishing exception.

Also, MP doesn't look to me that ego-striken or vindicative to assume he would never, ever play someone else's songs. It's DT, it's not Sabbath with / without Ozzy, can you imagine MP returning, the band playing Breaking All Illusions and everyone going "oh shit, what a dumb choice, we want to hear Portnoy songs"? come on....

MP has said as much. From memory, it was with regards to Derek playing Acid Rain. Mike said, and I'll have to paraphrase, "I told him that I understand he wouldn't want to play any of Jordan's parts because I wouldn't want to play Mangini's parts, but the crowd would go crazy for it." Later, and I forget the context, it may have been whether Sons of Apollo would play any other DT songs other than Falling Into Infinity songs, Mike said, and again, paraphrasing here, "Derek has as much interest in playing Jordan's parts as I have playing The Astonishing!"

So yeah, not a flat out refusal, but let's be real, there would be a real struggle to make it happen if he ever rejoined.

Then again, Slash is playing a ton of Chinese Democracy songs and Axl even pulled out Velvet Revolver's "Slither" but they also have a much more limited catalog and a few millions dollars more PER HOUR on the line.