2021 Summer Olympics thread

[wolfking]

Also, anyone that quits on the Olympics should get a life ban from ever being able to get the opportunity again.

[goo-goo]

I wouldn't say it's a specific mental health issue, but she is prioritizing her mental health, just as did Osaka. I for one welcome it, we got enough sports to last all of us a lifetime, whave a grave dearth of people putting their mental health ahead of fame and fortune.

I don't see this on the same level as Osaka in any way shape or form.


And Simon Biles already has fame and fortune...

If you guys have a chance and watch the Osaka documentary on Netflix, you will understand why she withdrew from Wimbledon and the other tournament. Naomi is ancomolete introvert, 23 yrs old, who still has issues dealing with fame. Even after winning 4 grand slam tournaments. Simone on the other hand, is quite the opposite. By looking at both, Simone is by far mentally stronger than Naomi. I believe the complexity of her routines is what got Simome. Maybe if she goes to less complex and difficult routines, she would get her confidence back. Was Biles cracking and decided to use the mental health issues card? I dont know and I think we will never know.

Also, Biles just withdrew from this week’s all around individuals competition. She has a week to regroup for next weeks competitions.

Having said this, if I was a gymnast and was one shot away from being in Team USA, I would be totally upset on Biles quitting. Biles took away someone else’s spot. Biles had a long time to address her mental issues before the Olympics started. I do feel for Biles. I have dealt with severe depression and anxiety and it is something that doesnt get fixed overnight (went through two yrs of therapy and med. and there are days were I still struggle with either or both). Addressing your mental health also takes a lot of will power and recognizing that you are not ok. And that is why is a bit hard for me to understand why she withdrew (not that she owes me anything).I truly hooe she addresses her mental issues. And if I were her, I would also withdraw from next week’s competitions. Otherwise, it will look like she used the mental health card because she wasn’t performing well.

[Stadler]

I actually find myself admiring her even more now because she has the guts to call it what it is and saying this is what she needs to do for herself and her teammates (not bring them down from a chance at a medal).  She is like a beacon of light for people struggling with mental health issues right now.  She's showing the world they can take the stigma attached to mental health issues and stick it where the sun doesn't shine.  Her lack of ego is refreshing.  Would that more athletes had those qualities.

Ugh..

If there's one thing she doesn't lack, it's ego.

This is the narrative that will drive me crazy.

Are we having this conversation if she stuck that vault? I doubt it.

There was a piece on my local news about the guy that apparently designed all her competition outfits or something like that (I was cooking at the time so missed the start) but I started watching once I heard what it was.  And it's important to note that the person proudly pointed out that SHE specifically requested that there be a "goat" - the animal - somewhere in sequins on each of her uniforms.   

I don't know. I feel for the person - as I've said repeatedly, I'm all for focusing on mental wellness, and I've been identifying this as a problem in our society for YEARS now and stand by that - but I'm not wholly convinced this is the greatest thing since sliced bread.  I think this has a chance to backfire and create more stigma than less.   I watched her interview last night after the team competition and it was less than convincing.   

[Harmony]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

Christina Myers, a former gymnast and now a gymnastics coach from Birmingham, Alabama, told BBC News that the twisties happen "when your brain and body disconnect".

"Imagine skydiving and your parachute won't open," she said. "Your body starts adding extra twists and flips to the skill you're supposed to be doing, and it can affect even the skills that feel as routine as walking to an elite gymnast...

"Your brain wants nothing more than to perform the intended skill correctly, but your body feels like it suddenly has a mind of its own."

She added that "because the twisties are mainly psychological, the harder you try to push through, the harder the twisties push back".

For her generation of gymnasts, she said, mental pain was not seen as a valid reason for taking a break from the sport.

Trying to push through the twisties "led to a spinal stress fracture - an overuse injury made worse by trying to push through", ultimately forcing her to stop competing.

Another ex-gymnast, Catherine Burns, compared it to being on a motorway and suddenly losing your muscle memory of how to drive.

"You're moving way too fast, you're totally lost, you're trying to think but you know you don't usually have to think to do these manoeuvres, you just feel them and do them," she tweeted. "It's not only scary and unnerving, it's incredibly dangerous even if you're doing basic gymnastics."

The twisties can also lead to serious injury.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57986166


Also - someone mentioned Kerri Strug.  I read this yesterday about her experience.

This realization I had about Simone Biles is gonna make some people mad, but oh well.

Yesterday I was excited to show my daughters Kerri Strug's famous one-leg vault. It was a defining Olympic moment that I watched live as a kid, and my girls watched raptly as Strug fell, and then limped back to leap again.

But for some reason I wasn't as inspired watching it this time. In fact, I felt a little sick. Maybe being a father and teacher has made me soft, but all I could see was how Kerri Strug looked at her coach,  Bela Karolyi, with pleading, terrified eyes, while he shouted back "You can do it!" over and over again.

My daughters didn't cheer when Strug landed her second vault. Instead they frowned in concern as she collapsed in agony and frantic tears.
"Why did she jump again if she was hurt?" one of my girls asked. I made some inane reply about the heart of a champion or Olympic spirit, but in the back of my mind a thought was festering:
*She shouldn't have jumped again*

The more the thought echoed, the stronger my realization became. Coach Karolyi should have gotten his visibly injured athlete medical help immediately! Now that I have two young daughters in gymnastics, I expect their safety to be the coach's number one priority. Instead, Bela Karolyi told Strug to vault again. And he got what he wanted; a gold medal that was more important to him than his athlete's health.
 
I'm sure people will say "Kerri Strug was a competitor--she WANTED to push through the injury." That's probably true. But since the last Olympics we've also learned these athletes were put into positions where they could be systematically abused both emotionally and physically, all while being inundated with "win at all costs" messaging. A teenager under those conditions should have been protected, and told "No medal is worth the risk of permanent injury." In fact, we now know that Strug's vault wasn't even necessary to clinch the gold; the U.S. already had an insurmountable lead. Nevertheless, Bela Karolyi told her to vault again according to his own recounting of their conversation:

"I can't feel my leg," Strug told Karolyi.
"We got to go one more time," Karolyi said. "Shake it out."
"Do I have to do this again?" Strug asked.
"Can you, can you?" Karolyi wanted to know.
"I don't know yet," said Strug. "I will do it. I will, I will."

The injury forced Strug's retirement at 18 years old. Dominique Moceanu, a generational talent, also retired from injuries shortly after. They were top gymnasts literally pushed to the breaking point, and then put out to pasture. Coach Karolyi and Larry Nassar (the serial sexual abuser) continued their long careers, while the athletes were treated as a disposable resource.

Today Simone Biles--the greatest gymnast of all time--chose to step back from the competition, citing concerns for mental and physical health. I've already seen comments and posts about how Biles "failed her country", "quit on us", or "can't be the greatest if she can't handle the pressure." Those statements are no different than Coach Karolyi telling an injured teen with wide, frightened eyes: "We got to go one more time. Shake it out."

The subtext here is: "Our gold medal is more important than your well-being."

Our athletes shouldn't have to destroy themselves to meet our standards. If giving empathetic, authentic support to our Olympians means we'll earn less gold medals, I'm happy to make that trade.

[TAC]

The Karolyis were evil fucking people. There's never been a doubt.

You go to their facility, you (as a parent) are basically handing your daughter off to mad people.

[Stadler]

Good article, good insight, but I object to the personification of that last paragraph or two. It's not MY gold medal; I could give a shit. 

I don't think it's for us to say whether it's worth it or not.  I think the judgment that "no medal is worth injury" from a third party is just as problematic as the judgement that "the gold medal is worth more than your individual being" from a third party.   It's not our (the peanut gallery) call whether the athlete lives with the regret of being this close, or lives with the memory of overcoming obstacles at some personal cost.  There was already so much sacrifice from those people - the athletes, the families, the friends - to even get to that point, that it's not something we should be making proclamations about from in front of our computer as we wolf down a Jersey Mike's Old Fashioned Italian.   I'm not taking sides here; I don't know, I don't have the answer, and I've never been in that position either as an athlete or a father, since I sucked* and my kid got my ex-wife's athletic ability.   But EDIT: as TAC points out, one hires Bela Karolyi for a reason and with full understanding.  Their determination should carry more weight than a pundit or observer.

(And no, I don't at all consider "pushing an athlete to his/her limits on the field" to be abuse, and CERTAINLY not abuse at the level of Larry Nassar.)




* I was actually a very good athlete, but I was a big-ish fish in a really small pond.  I never had any real taste of greatness at the levels we're talking about.

[TAC]

* I was actually a very good athlete,

[lonestar]

 



Also, in gymnastics, a mental mistake can leave one paralyzed. My final comment from all this is that she has the full support and praise of her teammates concerning her decision, every other opinion really doesn't matter much, including mine.

[goo-goo]

* I was actually a very good athlete,

Hahaha!!! 

[wolfking]

* I was actually a very good athlete,

4 touchdowns in a single game!

[Zoom E]

I saw Simone Biles interviewed on 60 Minutes a couple of months ago. She talked about how intensely she had trained for the Olympics and how devastating it was when they were postponed from 2020 to 2021. She had to give some consideration  as to whether she wanted to go through the training process for an additional year due to the postponement.

I find it confounding that she would pull out after putting in so much work, and don't think that would happen if there wasn't a good reason.

She was also a victim of that gymnastics coach who sexually abused so many girls, so it’s no surprise that she has mental health issues beyond the pressures of being an elite athlete.

[tofee35]

I think that bowing out will affect Simone's mental state in the long run. For any driven person that has ever quit something, that never leaves you. Hopefully, this doesn't stick with her and cause serious mental illness down the road. They didn't win the gold, and probably would have if she competed. That would weigh on any human being's mind. She had a serious mental block that could have caused her serious injury and she probably made the right move. Does it deserve praise and accolades? Not to me. I don't love the martyrdom around this. It takes attention away from her team. I wish she stuck to the facts of what happened and why she dropped out rather than getting on a soap box about mental health. But, my opinion doesn't matter. I'm not going to bring her down with it on her Instagram page. Winning and success are not exactly rewarded these days. But in the end, that's the stuff that will keep you going or bring you down if you don't give yourself the opportunity.

-Tof

[Lethean]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

I'm not qualified to say whether she's the greatest of all time or not, but if she was before this, imo she still is now.  All the golds she won in Rio haven't disappeared.  All of her World championships haven't disappeared.  Kerri Strug tweeted a goat emoji in support of Biles, so it's not looking like she Strug thinks she's no longer deserving. 

[Stadler]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

I'm not qualified to say whether she's the greatest of all time or not, but if she was before this, imo she still is now.  All the golds she won in Rio haven't disappeared.  All of her World championships haven't disappeared.  Kerri Strug tweeted a goat emoji in support of Biles, so it's not looking like she Strug thinks she's no longer deserving.

I don't think we can make that assumption.   Again, NOT binary; this isn't a "you're with us or you're against us" scenario.   She can give support without necessarily making that her new assessment of the history of women's gymnastics.  Maybe she DOES still consider her the greatest, but I think that very nature of reading into things like that is what got us here in the first place, no?  It's the same with my criticisms of Patrick Mahomes in the NFL thread; why not let these athletes assemble a complete body of work before enshrining them in the pantheon of history? Part of the problem is deeming them the GOAT before they've actually proved it, and making them live up to that.   (Watch that guy that used to work for the Patriots; he STILL TO THIS DAY does not use the praise to motivate himself, but the detractors.  Tell that guy he CAN'T do something and he's likely to prove you wrong.)

[lonestar]

After rallying her team to the silver in the wake of Biles withdrawal, Sunisa Lee takes the individual all around gold in gymnastics.

[Lethean]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

Not really harsh, but kind of silly. For one, I already addressed the team aspect.  It's quite possible she the result for the team would have been worse had she stayed in.  There's no way for us to know.  And the firefighter comparison doesn't quite work.  If they don't do their job, lots of people die.  (And even so - if said firefighter is in a really bad mental state, to where it's possible going in would put the rest of the team at more risk, then don't go).  Simone Biles pulls out, and what happened?  The alternate steps in and the team gets a silver medal, no one dies.  And again, her staying in wasn't guaranteed gold - sounds like she likely already cost them that with the vault. 

I'm not qualified to say whether she's the greatest of all time or not, but if she was before this, imo she still is now.  All the golds she won in Rio haven't disappeared.  All of her World championships haven't disappeared.  Kerri Strug tweeted a goat emoji in support of Biles, so it's not looking like she Strug thinks she's no longer deserving.

 

I don't think we can make that assumption.   Again, NOT binary; this isn't a "you're with us or you're against us" scenario.   She can give support without necessarily making that her new assessment of the history of women's gymnastics.  Maybe she DOES still consider her the greatest, but I think that very nature of reading into things like that is what got us here in the first place, no?  It's the same with my criticisms of Patrick Mahomes in the NFL thread; why not let these athletes assemble a complete body of work before enshrining them in the pantheon of history? Part of the problem is deeming them the GOAT before they've actually proved it, and making them live up to that.   (Watch that guy that used to work for the Patriots; he STILL TO THIS DAY does not use the praise to motivate himself, but the detractors.  Tell that guy he CAN'T do something and he's likely to prove you wrong.)

I'm not saying we should all be calling her (or anyone) the greatest while they're career is ongoing.  Not at all.  But I do think the statements that she definitively isn't are just as premature.  Let things play out. 

[King Postwhore]

After rallying her team to the silver in the wake of Biles withdrawal, Sunisa Lee takes the individual all around gold in gymnastics.

That's a great story.

[lonestar]

After rallying her team to the silver in the wake of Biles withdrawal, Sunisa Lee takes the individual all around gold in gymnastics.

That's a great story.

Right? Talk about being thrust into the spotlight and crushing it.

[Stadler]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

Not really harsh, but kind of silly. For one, I already addressed the team aspect.  It's quite possible she the result for the team would have been worse had she stayed in.  There's no way for us to know.  And the firefighter comparison doesn't quite work.  If they don't do their job, lots of people die.  (And even so - if said firefighter is in a really bad mental state, to where it's possible going in would put the rest of the team at more risk, then don't go).  Simone Biles pulls out, and what happened?  The alternate steps in and the team gets a silver medal, no one dies.  And again, her staying in wasn't guaranteed gold - sounds like she likely already cost them that with the vault. 

Just reinforcing my point that it's a subjective discussion and not up to us, as outsiders, to make our value judgement.  Whether someone might die or not is not necessarily some magic determinative point.  If I've trained my entire cognizant life for an event that may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, is it for you or me to determine for them that is a "lesser" event and not of equal weight?   I don't think so.

I'm not qualified to say whether she's the greatest of all time or not, but if she was before this, imo she still is now.  All the golds she won in Rio haven't disappeared.  All of her World championships haven't disappeared.  Kerri Strug tweeted a goat emoji in support of Biles, so it's not looking like she Strug thinks she's no longer deserving.

 

I don't think we can make that assumption.   Again, NOT binary; this isn't a "you're with us or you're against us" scenario.   She can give support without necessarily making that her new assessment of the history of women's gymnastics.  Maybe she DOES still consider her the greatest, but I think that very nature of reading into things like that is what got us here in the first place, no?  It's the same with my criticisms of Patrick Mahomes in the NFL thread; why not let these athletes assemble a complete body of work before enshrining them in the pantheon of history? Part of the problem is deeming them the GOAT before they've actually proved it, and making them live up to that.   (Watch that guy that used to work for the Patriots; he STILL TO THIS DAY does not use the praise to motivate himself, but the detractors.  Tell that guy he CAN'T do something and he's likely to prove you wrong.)

I'm not saying we should all be calling her (or anyone) the greatest while they're career is ongoing.  Not at all.  But I do think the statements that she definitively isn't are just as premature.  Let things play out.

I agree with you 100% and didn't mean to imply otherwise, except to say that there are some things that sort of by their nature preclude the discussion; there are countless athletes - Carson Wentz comes to mind - who are good players, but for whatever reason, when the "big game" came along were hurt or otherwise unable to take the field.  But if you read any of my posts in the NFL thread, I'm fine with waiting for the career to be over to do the post-mortem on their place in history.

[tofee35]

After rallying her team to the silver in the wake of Biles withdrawal, Sunisa Lee takes the individual all around gold in gymnastics.

That's awesome! I can't wait to see it. She was really impressive up until today. It's nice to see some great news. 

-Tof

[Lethean]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

Not really harsh, but kind of silly. For one, I already addressed the team aspect.  It's quite possible she the result for the team would have been worse had she stayed in.  There's no way for us to know.  And the firefighter comparison doesn't quite work.  If they don't do their job, lots of people die.  (And even so - if said firefighter is in a really bad mental state, to where it's possible going in would put the rest of the team at more risk, then don't go).  Simone Biles pulls out, and what happened?  The alternate steps in and the team gets a silver medal, no one dies.  And again, her staying in wasn't guaranteed gold - sounds like she likely already cost them that with the vault. 

Just reinforcing my point that it's a subjective discussion and not up to us, as outsiders, to make our value judgement.  Whether someone might die or not is not necessarily some magic determinative point.  If I've trained my entire cognizant life for an event that may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, is it for you or me to determine for them that is a "lesser" event and not of equal weight?   I don't think so.

For those of us who aren't competing, we absolutely can say that people's lives are more important than a gold medal.  There's no comparison; there's no slippery slope that your comment seemed to be implying by saying that if Biles can do what she did, it'll give first responders the wrong idea.  I'm not suggesting we sit down with the athletes and tell them that their event is "lesser" than anything. 

[Stadler]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

Not really harsh, but kind of silly. For one, I already addressed the team aspect.  It's quite possible she the result for the team would have been worse had she stayed in.  There's no way for us to know.  And the firefighter comparison doesn't quite work.  If they don't do their job, lots of people die.  (And even so - if said firefighter is in a really bad mental state, to where it's possible going in would put the rest of the team at more risk, then don't go).  Simone Biles pulls out, and what happened?  The alternate steps in and the team gets a silver medal, no one dies.  And again, her staying in wasn't guaranteed gold - sounds like she likely already cost them that with the vault. 

Just reinforcing my point that it's a subjective discussion and not up to us, as outsiders, to make our value judgement.  Whether someone might die or not is not necessarily some magic determinative point.  If I've trained my entire cognizant life for an event that may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, is it for you or me to determine for them that is a "lesser" event and not of equal weight?   I don't think so.

For those of us who aren't competing, we absolutely can say that people's lives are more important than a gold medal.  There's no comparison; there's no slippery slope that your comment seemed to be implying by saying that if Biles can do what she did, it'll give first responders the wrong idea.  I'm not suggesting we sit down with the athletes and tell them that their event is "lesser" than anything.

No, actually you cannot, not for anyone but yourself.   One would HOPE that others would value life higher than an object, medal or achievement, but that's not for YOU to say FOR SOMEONE ELSE.  When it comes to behavior, and particularly when it comes to risk of that behavior, there are far more examples in history of IRRATIONAL behavior than rational behavior.   

Ask Dale Earnhardt (and, by the way, his son, if you've read his book about his battles with concussions) about whether his sport is worth his life.   

And given what I've seen over the past 20 years - and the data that appears to be backing it up - I ABSOLUTELY think that over time what Biles and Osaka did may incorporate itself into the zeitgeist.  We are in an almost crippling state of mass insecurity in our nation, contributing to the mass killings we've experienced over the last 20 years, the significant increase in suicides, the divisiveness that is corrupting our government, the racism that is flooding our society... don't for a second believe these are isolated, unrelated phenomena driven simply by those that "don't think like us".   I've posted numerous articles that back this up, even though it runs afoul of the general tactical narrative we see from our politicians and those (too insecure) to account for the fact that someone might actually think different than we do.

[reneranucci]

This Olympics conversation is fun y'all.

Anyway, I'm not bored enough to watch the Olympics, but I look forward to seeing how the men's basketball story unfolds. If a Durant-led team doesn't bring home the gold, it'll fuel the haters who say he can't win by himself. And I would love to see Slovenia compete for a medal.

[pg1067]

Dumb question (perhaps):

Why is the abbreviation that's being used for Russia "ROC"?  When I first saw it (I think during a volleyball game), I thought it was "Republic of China," but none of the athletes on that team looked Chinese, and then the announcer kept referring to "the Russians."  Shouldn't it be "RUS"?

[Lethean]

When I heard SB mention "the twisties" I erroneously assumed that meant her stomach was tied up in knots.  Here is what it actually means for those of us who are not gymnasts, divers, figure skaters, or anyone else who hurls themselves spinning through space:

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

But as many said, it's not a "yes/no" situation.  Did she do right for herself?  Only she and her closest advisers can say.  But what's good for HER may not be the best for the group - the team - nor may not be the best message for the rest of the world.   That's the part that I think many don't acknowledge, and some of the support - SOME of it, not all of it - reflects that.   Maybe next time the World Trade Center is bombed, the firefighters that arrive ought to be able to determine "I'm not mentally ready for this, maybe I should sit this one out and let my teammates do this.  I could get hurt, after all!".   Harsh, I know, but there is context for EVERYTHING, and the "moment" isn't the only one and isn't necessarily right.

Not really harsh, but kind of silly. For one, I already addressed the team aspect.  It's quite possible she the result for the team would have been worse had she stayed in.  There's no way for us to know.  And the firefighter comparison doesn't quite work.  If they don't do their job, lots of people die.  (And even so - if said firefighter is in a really bad mental state, to where it's possible going in would put the rest of the team at more risk, then don't go).  Simone Biles pulls out, and what happened?  The alternate steps in and the team gets a silver medal, no one dies.  And again, her staying in wasn't guaranteed gold - sounds like she likely already cost them that with the vault. 

Just reinforcing my point that it's a subjective discussion and not up to us, as outsiders, to make our value judgement.  Whether someone might die or not is not necessarily some magic determinative point.  If I've trained my entire cognizant life for an event that may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, is it for you or me to determine for them that is a "lesser" event and not of equal weight?   I don't think so.

For those of us who aren't competing, we absolutely can say that people's lives are more important than a gold medal.  There's no comparison; there's no slippery slope that your comment seemed to be implying by saying that if Biles can do what she did, it'll give first responders the wrong idea.  I'm not suggesting we sit down with the athletes and tell them that their event is "lesser" than anything.

No, actually you cannot, not for anyone but yourself.   One would HOPE that others would value life higher than an object, medal or achievement, but that's not for YOU to say FOR SOMEONE ELSE.  When it comes to behavior, and particularly when it comes to risk of that behavior, there are far more examples in history of IRRATIONAL behavior than rational behavior.   

Ask Dale Earnhardt (and, by the way, his son, if you've read his book about his battles with concussions) about whether his sport is worth his life.   

And given what I've seen over the past 20 years - and the data that appears to be backing it up - I ABSOLUTELY think that over time what Biles and Osaka did may incorporate itself into the zeitgeist.  We are in an almost crippling state of mass insecurity in our nation, contributing to the mass killings we've experienced over the last 20 years, the significant increase in suicides, the divisiveness that is corrupting our government, the racism that is flooding our society... don't for a second believe these are isolated, unrelated phenomena driven simply by those that "don't think like us".   I've posted numerous articles that back this up, even though it runs afoul of the general tactical narrative we see from our politicians and those (too insecure) to account for the fact that someone might actually think different than we do.

I feel like we're having two different conversations.  I'm not saying I get to tell an athlete how to feel about an event.  If they think it's the most important thing in their life - that's fine.  If they think it's worth risking their life - that's fine.  Maybe their spouse/kids can have an opinion on the issue, but as a stranger it's certainly not for me to say.  There is no disagreement there.
You made the sports/firefighter comparison which has nothing to do with telling an athlete how they should value life, especially their own.  I am saying that in general, "we" (people in general) can say that human life is more important and that Biles stepping down and "us" being OK with it doesn't mean we then have to be OK with letting people die.  (Now - that's an oversimplification because I certainly do think there are times when "we" should be OK with a firefighter sitting one out; my parents have some firefighter friends and while I don't know about the larger world, those guys seemed to expect that every so often someone would sit one out at the last minute for "not having their head right" and some of them had it happen to them).

[Lethean]

Dumb question (perhaps):

Why is the abbreviation that's being used for Russia "ROC"?  When I first saw it (I think during a volleyball game), I thought it was "Republic of China," but none of the athletes on that team looked Chinese, and then the announcer kept referring to "the Russians."  Shouldn't it be "RUS"?

Russian Olympic Committee.  It's because Russia isn't allowed to compete as a country - they were banned from a few Olympics for doping issues.  But individual athletes can still compete - they're just not considered to be representing Russia, it doesn't go to Russia's medal count or anything like that.  But the individual athletes don't get punished by not be allowed to compete at all.  I don't know how long the ban will last for - I think it was like that in the last Olympics as well.

[Stadler]

Dumb question (perhaps):

Why is the abbreviation that's being used for Russia "ROC"?  When I first saw it (I think during a volleyball game), I thought it was "Republic of China," but none of the athletes on that team looked Chinese, and then the announcer kept referring to "the Russians."  Shouldn't it be "RUS"?

ROC is Russian Olympic Committee; I'm not sure of the details, but this has something to do with the two-year doping ban levied against the country, Russia.

[pg1067]

Dumb question (perhaps):

Why is the abbreviation that's being used for Russia "ROC"?  When I first saw it (I think during a volleyball game), I thought it was "Republic of China," but none of the athletes on that team looked Chinese, and then the announcer kept referring to "the Russians."  Shouldn't it be "RUS"?

Russian Olympic Committee.  It's because Russia isn't allowed to compete as a country - they were banned from a few Olympics for doping issues.  But individual athletes can still compete - they're just not considered to be representing Russia, it doesn't go to Russia's medal count or anything like that.  But the individual athletes don't get punished by not be allowed to compete at all.  I don't know how long the ban will last for - I think it was like that in the last Olympics as well.

Thanks (although it seems like more form over function, but there you go).

[Anguyen92]

The last Olympics in 2018, the Russians were referred to as the Olympic Athletes from Russia.

Apparently, for this Olympics, here were the rules regarding Russian Athletes.  "The Court ruled on 17 December 2020 to reduce the penalty that WADA had placed; instead of banning Russia from sporting events, the ruling allowed Russia to participate at the Olympics and other international events but for a period of two years, the team cannot use the Russian name, flag, or anthem and must present themselves as "Neutral Athlete" or "Neutral Team". The ruling does allow for team uniforms to display "Russia" on the uniform as well as the use of the Russian flag colours within the uniform's design, although the name should be up to equal predominance as the "Neutral Athlete/Team" designation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Olympic_Committee

On another note, I caught a women Rugby 7s game late last night between Japan and Kenya.  My goodness.  That game should be the game that should honor the Olympic spirit the most.  There was no medals, nothing on the line for these teams other than pride, but you see both teams giving it everything they got and Japan really wanted that only win in the session and wasn't afraid to be physical to try to get there.  Alas, it was not meant to be as Kenya scored in the final minutes of the game (although Japan really was pushing hard as they could to stop that).

[pg1067]

On another note, I caught a women Rugby 7s game

Every time I watch rugby (which isn't often), I seriously feel like they're just making it up as they go.  They run the ball and then someone gets tackled but just gets right back up and starts running again.  Then someone kicks the ball...seemingly randomly.  Then they all stop for a minute and nothing seems to be happening and an official blows a whistle, and someone gives the ball to someone on the other team....   

[lonestar]

On another note, I caught a women Rugby 7s game

Every time I watch rugby (which isn't often), I seriously feel like they're just making it up as they go.  They run the ball and then someone gets tackled but just gets right back up and starts running again.  Then someone kicks the ball...seemingly randomly.  Then they all stop for a minute and nothing seems to be happening and an official blows a whistle, and someone gives the ball to someone on the other team....   

I'm glad I'm not the only one 

[TAC]

That's funny.

[TAC]

I felt like I don't really have enough information to judge whether Simone Biles did the right thing - but I leaned on the side of thinking that she probably did.  After reading the above and similar posts, it strengthens that feeling.  I wasn't there and don't know exactly what happened, so she could be lying, she could be exaggerating, she could have had a little tantrum because her vault didn't go well and decided to quit.  But with no evidence to support that, I'm more than willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.  From what I've read and from some of the commentary, her vault already likely cost the USA the gold.  Had she pushed on and continued to perform badly, it could have cost them a medal at all.  Rather than letting the team down, she possibly helped them out.  And with the explanation of the twisties, she possibly could have seriously injured herself as well.   I certainly wouldn't have wanted to see her carried out on a stretcher.  I get that it's annoying to see people fawning over her and talking about what a hero she is, but that's just what people do; they fawn over their favorite athletes, make everything dramatic, and put them on a pedestal.  I don't think she's necessarily a "hero" but she isn't "not a hero" either.  She just made the best decision she could at the time.

I said I wouldn't say another word on this subject, but I just got back from vacation and your post got my attention.

Lethean, this is a great post and I pretty much agree with everything you said. If she quit, er..pulled herself out of the competition because she didn't feel up to it, then fine. I don't really have an issue with that. It is what it is, and she should've just stayed home.

My issue with the whole thing was that the reaction and as you said "fawning" over this being a mental health thing. I felt like it would be disingenuous to people that actually suffer from mental health crisis.

No, she is not a hero for this, and I agree that she's not "not a hero" either. She's just an athlete that for whatever reason pulled out of a competition. Let's not make anything more of it.

She is already a hero for her accomplishments. 

[XeRocks81]

mental health still has stigma attached (they’re just lazy, should just get over it, suck it up, etc. ) that’s only now in the last few years starting to change, that’s what’s behind the reaction imo. 

[King Postwhore]

I disagree.   That stigma is only in elite athletes.   General public it's lauded when you admit it.

He'll, I've admit it hear and had great support.