"Official" Lost Not Forgotten (official bootlegs) thread

[Trav86]

Like the When Dream and Day ReUnite CD having pics from the Octavarium tour inside. Even though the show was on the Train of Thought tour.

[Mosh]

The best way to handle some of this I think would be to make the albums available on bandcamp - they can post whatever they want in the album credits section and include a PDF with liner notes in the digital download. I assume a few years back when they posted some stuff on there it was a test run for something like this and they decided for whatever reason it wasn't going to work for them.

[Madman Shepherd]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

Kind of interesting to hear Mike complain about DT again. To be clear, I think he is 100% right here. And while this was toned down from the things he used to say, I'm kinda surprised at how open he was about his annoyance.

[Stadler]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial. It's a stone cold fact that there is little if any liner notes on the new releases, and some of the older Ytsejam releases had upwards of four or five pages of liner notes.  That's not controversial.

And I think we should be celebrating that Mike is working with the DT guys, even if it's not on new music.  Who thought that would ever happen again?

[The Letter M]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial. It's a stone cold fact that there is little if any liner notes on the new releases, and some of the older Ytsejam releases had upwards of four or five pages of liner notes.  That's not controversial.

And I think we should be celebrating that Mike is working with the DT guys, even if it's not on new music.  Who thought that would ever happen again?

After a few years, it did feel impossible, but once JP announced that Portnoy was drumming on his next solo album, I figured anything was possible. Hell, up til now, I think MP has recorded more in the new DT Studio than MM has, and that kind of tickles me to think that JP let Portnoy in there to record both his solo album AND LTE3 before DT ever recorded in there (for AVFTTOTW).

I'm glad to see that relationships have more or less been mended between Mike and the rest of the band, even JLB, so it's nice to see that this has extended to MP opening up his DT archives for new LNFA albums, especially since it seems like they were going to run out of YJR re-releases by the end of this year or so. There's only, what, 3 or 4 CD releases left to put back out, and a couple of videos? I guess if they wanted to, they could also put out the DTIFC albums but I feel like that definitely takes away from the specialness of those (and would tick me off because I paid a pretty penny for some of them over 15 years ago when I was hunting them down in the mid 00's).

I remember MP's goal was to release some documentation of every tour (or even tour leg) that DT had been on, so maybe that can finally be completed. Would still love to get the Rush Covers compilation that would've been next in the YJR series as well.

-Marc.

[Madman Shepherd]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial.

How was that clickbait? It was a completely accurate headline. When you read the article it provided full context. It does not imply Mike's an asshole or anything. It literally quoted him verbatim and provided the background for why this is interesting.

[Stadler]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial.

How was that clickbait? It was a completely accurate headline. When you read the article it provided full context. It does not imply Mike's an asshole or anything. It literally quoted him verbatim and provided the background for why this is interesting.

Technically, you're right, but Blabbermouth has a way of only showcasing the worst of Mike Portnoy. 

[Trav86]

The best way to handle some of this I think would be to make the albums available on bandcamp - they can post whatever they want in the album credits section and include a PDF with liner notes in the digital download. I assume a few years back when they posted some stuff on there it was a test run for something like this and they decided for whatever reason it wasn't going to work for them.

But, part of this is for an easy profit too. Remember they started this in the middle of the pandemic went they weren’t touring and didn’t have signings cash flow coming in. They need to make money on it too.

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

Sometime he just can’t help himself. I don’t see how bringing that up does any good.

[devieira73]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial.

How was that clickbait? It was a completely accurate headline. When you read the article it provided full context. It does not imply Mike's an asshole or anything. It literally quoted him verbatim and provided the background for why this is interesting.

Well, I also didn't see anything wrong or negative on it (despite Blabbermouth's bad reputation), I just brought it up because it has some interesting information about what we were discussing here.

[gzarruk]

I'm hoping for the Awake in Japan show to appear here someday. Also, Jordan's first show at Foundations Forum.

[TAC]

I'm hoping for the Awake in Japan show to appear here someday. Also, Jordan's first show at Foundations Forum.

These are both out there in pretty decent quality, no?

[Skeever]

I think Mike is spot-on.

As a physical release, these have just not been very appealing to me.

Big issue is, indeed, they lack linear notes, artwork, and context.
2nd issue is even the top-level kaleidoscope artwork just feels uninspired to me. Everything looks the same, aside from general color palette, which is "samey". It's hard to discern one item from the next.

Right way to do this (for me) would be:

1.) Obviously, all the music.
2.) Mike's original notes and perhaps expanded notes as a boon for people who already bought once.
3.) Bigger/better prints of the pictures and other content from the booklets. Maybe a poster?
4.) Retain/approve the original artwork
5.) Different formats. Bluray/Vinyl/etc.

That'd be the way, IMO, to do a physical release in 2023.
It's nice to have this on Tidal as a curiosity, but so far what I'm seeing has totally failed to grab me as someone who would potentially collect some of these.
But not surprising, since we haven't really gotten compelling reissues/rereleases of even their classic, beloved works.

[gzarruk]

I'm hoping for the Awake in Japan show to appear here someday. Also, Jordan's first show at Foundations Forum.

These are both out there in pretty decent quality, no?

I've seen the youtube videos for the Japan show and they're good but I'd love to have them in full audio quality. Haven't seen anything from the Foundations show, but I'm not a bootleg collector or anything close, only the official live albums, YJR/LNF titles and the occasional fan club release. Maybe there are soundboard recordings out there?

[Bluefish]

Just listened to the MSG show. Mike talked too much during the songs, IMO.

I'm just laughing they actually left them in there. Well, at least we know they're not cutting out anything with these recordings. 

Agree.  I can see where that would be a source of irritation for James while trying to sing.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm hoping for the Awake in Japan show to appear here someday. Also, Jordan's first show at Foundations Forum.

These are both out there in pretty decent quality, no?

I've seen the youtube videos for the Japan show and they're good but I'd love to have them in full audio quality. Haven't seen anything from the Foundations show, but I'm not a bootleg collector or anything close, only the official live albums, YJR/LNF titles and the occasional fan club release. Maybe there are soundboard recordings out there?

Is there any doubt? Of course there are. You might be amazed at how much stuff (including soundboards and broadcasts) are already in circulation. You just have to do a little digging.

And for that reason, I would rather they choose to release other shows instead of those specific ones. Of course, they ended up releasing the 2015 Wacken show despite it already being widely in circulation (and video!), so it's quite possible they still could. But given that any new MP-era releases will be channeled through MP, I expect he'll have the foresight to select shows that aren't in circulation.

[James Mypetgiress]

I have a DVD boot of the Awake in Japan show I picked up in like 2010. I play it more than a lot of my official releases. Really, really good set and James was on incredible form that evening.
I can see it getting a LNF release eventually, and would be down to pick it up just to have it on vinyl tbh.
I think I also have a CD copy of the "Who is that On the Keys" boot from Foundations - it's not fantastic quality tho. Think it would be cool to get a soundboard copy of that just for what it now means for DT history.

[gzarruk]

I'm hoping for the Awake in Japan show to appear here someday. Also, Jordan's first show at Foundations Forum.

These are both out there in pretty decent quality, no?

I've seen the youtube videos for the Japan show and they're good but I'd love to have them in full audio quality. Haven't seen anything from the Foundations show, but I'm not a bootleg collector or anything close, only the official live albums, YJR/LNF titles and the occasional fan club release. Maybe there are soundboard recordings out there?

Is there any doubt? Of course there are. You might be amazed at how much stuff (including soundboards and broadcasts) are already in circulation. You just have to do a little digging.

And for that reason, I would rather they choose to release other shows instead of those specific ones. Of course, they ended up releasing the 2015 Wacken show despite it already being widely in circulation (and video!), so it's quite possible they still could. But given that any new MP-era releases will be channeled through MP, I expect he'll have the foresight to select shows that aren't in circulation.

I just have no clue where to get stuff like that

Though I'm much more interested in just getting the best live version of each song for each DT lineup so far. I'm working on making playlists for all of them, including as many tracks as I can

[OpenYourEyes311]

I just have no clue where to get stuff like that

Though I'm much more interested in just getting the best live version of each song for each DT lineup so far. I'm working on making playlists for all of them, including as many tracks as I can

Oh. That's fun. I'll be doing that now. 

Edit: Do you have To Live Forever and Metropolis 2004 with Charlie in their own playlist?

[jimgolf]

To comment on the mike portnoy observations about the releases, I do miss the notes/artwork that came in the original cds. It was very cool and added a lot to the releases. That being said, I’m very grateful the band is rereleasing these at all and they are readily available on streaming services to the wide audience of fans that have never heard them before. The one thing I do hope they rerelease is the 2002 Bucharest show - one of my favorite shows with one of the best DT setlists 

[gzarruk]

I just have no clue where to get stuff like that

Though I'm much more interested in just getting the best live version of each song for each DT lineup so far. I'm working on making playlists for all of them, including as many tracks as I can

Oh. That's fun. I'll be doing that now. 

Edit: Do you have To Live Forever and Metropolis 2004 with Charlie in their own playlist?

My original idea was to make just one big DT live playlist with the best version of every song, but there's a lot of great stuff out there, I couldn't decide what to leave out. I don't have any Charlie DT playlists, but that version of Metropolis is one of my all time favorites

[KevShmev]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

[The Letter M]

I've been wondering if the "cheapness" of these LNFA releases has to do with Inside Out not wanting to produce overly lavish packages for these albums. Not printing booklets or multi-panel digipaks cuts down on production costs.

I also wonder if the band were afraid to use Mike's liner notes for the YJR albums because they would feel compelled to compensate him for his words and using them on new releases? I'm not sure if relations between JP/the band and Mike were as good as they are now (post-Terminal Velocity) when they started to get the ball rolling on the LNFA albums.

-Marc.

[Kwyjibo]

I don't think that they sell a large amount of physical copies for each release, so cutting down production costs makes absolute sense.

But nonetheless some liner notes or background information would've been nice.

[Samsara]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I think MP saying something about the liner notes is important. Very important. HE was the quality control in the band. And to be frank, the QC has sucked since he has left. It doesn't really impact anything music-wise. But as someone who appreciates correct logos and basically the right information and care being given to things, I always applaud MP on that stuff.

The only reason I just bought the MSG show is because MP handled it. I have the other MP-era official bootlegs from Ytsejam. I did not purchase any of this Lost Not Forgotten series until MP said he was finally involved. And he should be.

However this band is going to go in the future, MP is one of the core reasons why DT has had success. He's also the band's historian. I'm really glad he's involved in this. Maybe one day, he can reunite with the band on stage, as a guest, or if Mangini decides to stop, as a member. But having MP involved, and fences being mended, to this old school fan, means a lot.

[Setlist Scotty]

I just have no clue where to get stuff like that

It doesn't take much effort. Just do a search for dimeadozen and/or Guitars 101 to get started.   
 
 

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

In all fairness, he's really just expressing how he feels about the lack of his notes and artwork. I guess you could call that complaining, but it hardly is in my book.
 
 

I've been wondering if the "cheapness" of these LNFA releases has to do with Inside Out not wanting to produce overly lavish packages for these albums. Not printing booklets or multi-panel digipaks cuts down on production costs.

Does it really though? I haven't priced things out, but I would tend to think it would cost much more to produce digipaks (which I hate!) instead of a simple 4/8 page booklet and tray card, and putting them in a jewel case. The heavier card stock used for printing the "cover" of digipaks would be a big cost, plus having to glue the tray after printing and folding would (I imagine) cost more than printing a booklet and tray card on normal paper, folding, stitching (if 8 pages) and inserting into jewel cases.
 
 

I also wonder if the band were afraid to use Mike's liner notes for the YJR albums because they would feel compelled to compensate him for his words and using them on new releases? I'm not sure if relations between JP/the band and Mike were as good as they are now (post-Terminal Velocity) when they started to get the ball rolling on the LNFA albums.

I've wondered about why those liner notes were missing too, and while I've never asked (and therefore never gotten an answer from the band), I imagine it has to do with the fact that MP is no longer in the band and in their opinions, it would've looked weird having their former drummer writing those notes. It would also obligate them to write liner notes for at least some of the newer releases, too. So by not including any liner notes, they sidestep that whole issue, even if it leaves questions for those not in the know.

[Trav86]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I agree. But most bands of their stature and legacy just hire some type of archivist to handle things like that. You don’t need an ex-band member for that. Hell even paying some people on here (SetlistScotty) would do that.

Now, I realize Mike has access to everything band related while he was in DT, and that’s great to have him involved to supply that stuff. But like he said in that interview, having him go over the credits and photos.  You can have staff for that.  His liner notes add a personal touch, but all of that info could be handled without him. JP, JM and JLB (1991- )were in the studio too.

[EPIC Outro]

I hope the band doesn't get upset with Mike for sharing his feelings. I can see his criticisms not going over so well with the guys... But at the same time, he is absolutely right. Those liner notes are gold, and add much needed context.

Maybe he or the other DT guys can just throw a couple of paragraphs about each of these LNF releases up on a website? I can't imagine that would be too time consuming, and it would be way better than releasing these with no context at all.

[KevShmev]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I think MP saying something about the liner notes is important. Very important. HE was the quality control in the band. And to be frank, the QC has sucked since he has left. It doesn't really impact anything music-wise. But as someone who appreciates correct logos and basically the right information and care being given to things, I always applaud MP on that stuff.

The only reason I just bought the MSG show is because MP handled it. I have the other MP-era official bootlegs from Ytsejam. I did not purchase any of this Lost Not Forgotten series until MP said he was finally involved. And he should be.

However this band is going to go in the future, MP is one of the core reasons why DT has had success. He's also the band's historian. I'm really glad he's involved in this. Maybe one day, he can reunite with the band on stage, as a guest, or if Mangini decides to stop, as a member. But having MP involved, and fences being mended, to this old school fan, means a lot.

While I have no doubt that he is happy to have repaired his personal relationships with the current members of the band, my gut feeling is that Portnoy is playing the long game.  Dream Theater and Mike Portnoy are both approaching the back end of their careers (both can see the 18th hole in the distance now), and I think he wants back in before it's all said and done so it can all come full circle and the band gets what he considers a proper ending and he has a big hand in making it happen a certain way.  Reaching out and making amends to James last year was the first step towards that end.  And now, by agreeing to help with some of the bootlegs, he is doing the "ex-member who wants to be helpful" thing, which doesn't get him back in, but makes him a part of the family again to where his presence isn't so "what is HE doing here?", like it would have been years ago.  That is why I was a bit surprised that he said what he said about the liner notes, as he comes off like the Portnoy of the 00s where he does it all and no one else in the band cares about the little things (true or not, that doesn't mean saying it is often wise), but a leopard obviously cannot change its spots.

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I agree. But most bands of their stature and legacy just hire some type of archivist to handle things like that. You don’t need an ex-band member for that. Hell even paying some people on here (SetlistScotty) would do that.

Now, I realize Mike has access to everything band related while he was in DT, and that’s great to have him involved to supply that stuff. But like he said in that interview, having him go over the credits and photos.  You can have staff for that.  His liner notes add a personal touch, but all of that info could be handled without him. JP, JM and JLB (1991- )were in the studio too.

True, but if there are no liner notes at all, that means the band isn't giving it to anyone on the staff to take care of.  Trust me, I am anything but a Mike Portnoy apologist, but if he and some fans are frustrated with the band's seemingly lazy approach to this kind of stuff on the new bootleg releases, I totally get it.  I remember buying the first LTE album, and the whole long story in the liner notes by Portnoy about how the band came to be was such a great read.  Little stuff like that is always great to get as a fan. 

[Trav86]

I realize they aren’t giving it to anyone now. I’m saying they could accomplishment all of this without having to get MP and really without having to do that much themselves.

[ytserush]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

I think Mike's 100 percent right  I just hope he doesn't get burned by his involvement.

[ytserush]

https://blabbermouth.net/news/mike-portnoy-confirms-he-is-slightly-involved-in-dream-theaters-recently-launched-lost-not-forgotten-archives

They are horrible.  That was clickbait.  I don't think Mike said ANYTHING controversial. It's a stone cold fact that there is little if any liner notes on the new releases, and some of the older Ytsejam releases had upwards of four or five pages of liner notes.  That's not controversial.

And I think we should be celebrating that Mike is working with the DT guys, even if it's not on new music.  Who thought that would ever happen again?

I thought it was clickbait too and deleted that line from my post because I didn't want to give the platform oxygen but since you mentioned it the article was designed to get clicks which isn't really news either.

[ytserush]

To comment on the mike portnoy observations about the releases, I do miss the notes/artwork that came in the original cds. It was very cool and added a lot to the releases. That being said, I’m very grateful the band is rereleasing these at all and they are readily available on streaming services to the wide audience of fans that have never heard them before. The one thing I do hope they rerelease is the 2002 Bucharest show - one of my favorite shows with one of the best DT setlists 

Kind of going off topic but....

Larger point is I'm not sure streaming services really care about the correct information or context so having the right information may not matter. How can you be even be sure which version of a song you're hearing on these platforms? Band name and song seems to be the thing that seems to matter and sometimes that's not even correct.

[ytserush]

I've been wondering if the "cheapness" of these LNFA releases has to do with Inside Out not wanting to produce overly lavish packages for these albums. Not printing booklets or multi-panel digipaks cuts down on production costs.

I also wonder if the band were afraid to use Mike's liner notes for the YJR albums because they would feel compelled to compensate him for his words and using them on new releases? I'm not sure if relations between JP/the band and Mike were as good as they are now (post-Terminal Velocity) when they started to get the ball rolling on the LNFA albums.

-Marc.

Almost nobody buys CDs anymore. I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I'm kind of surprised they're flooding the market with vinyl though which costs a lot more to produce than CDs and not many people comparatively buy those either.

Most of the work has already been done on these recordings so I think you're right that the investment on these is pretty low and that ultimately streaming might eventually be the priority here.

[ytserush]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I agree. But most bands of their stature and legacy just hire some type of archivist to handle things like that. You don’t need an ex-band member for that. Hell even paying some people on here (SetlistScotty) would do that.

Now, I realize Mike has access to everything band related while he was in DT, and that’s great to have him involved to supply that stuff. But like he said in that interview, having him go over the credits and photos.  You can have staff for that.  His liner notes add a personal touch, but all of that info could be handled without him. JP, JM and JLB (1991- )were in the studio too.

Mike was essentially the band's on staff archivist and I think that was one aspect that essentially burned him out of the band. As long as he doesn't get himself burned doing it I can think of know one else better suited for the job.

[Stadler]

On the one hand, Portnoy griping about the liner notes is probably a reminder to the band of why he is good to keep at arms length now. Give him an inch (letting him being semi-involved with the bootlegs) and he is already complaining a little about what they aren't doing that he used to do.

On other other hand, it's indicative of how no current member has his attention to detail when it comes to stuff like that, as I feel that releasing this stuff without the liner notes and whatnot seems...lazy.  For as grating as Portnoy's personality is in general, I agree with his overall point.

I think MP saying something about the liner notes is important. Very important. HE was the quality control in the band. And to be frank, the QC has sucked since he has left. It doesn't really impact anything music-wise. But as someone who appreciates correct logos and basically the right information and care being given to things, I always applaud MP on that stuff.

The only reason I just bought the MSG show is because MP handled it. I have the other MP-era official bootlegs from Ytsejam. I did not purchase any of this Lost Not Forgotten series until MP said he was finally involved. And he should be.

However this band is going to go in the future, MP is one of the core reasons why DT has had success. He's also the band's historian. I'm really glad he's involved in this. Maybe one day, he can reunite with the band on stage, as a guest, or if Mangini decides to stop, as a member. But having MP involved, and fences being mended, to this old school fan, means a lot.

It HAS affected the music though; there are two releases (three, depending on how you count) where songs were inexplicably left off, leaving the show less than complete.   Mike wouldn't do that (remember when he snuck the snippet of I think it was Space Truckin' on the end of the live Flying Colors release to make sure everyone had EVERY song played by the band on that tour?)