Author Topic: Am I a bad person?  (Read 9588 times)

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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #105 on: June 21, 2021, 12:17:51 PM »
I would say to be very careful with this one, what starts out as innocent can easily get out of hand. One little spark can cause a whole forest fire, and someone will get burnt.
 The worst advice anyone can ever give you is to follow your heart. The heart can lead you astray and cloud rational thinking. When alcohol is involved,  you're way more likely to act on any type of feelings that could creep up. Even a couple of drinks can remove inhibitions and put you in the danger zone.

I speak from experience and believe me, living with a marred conscience really sucks!  :facepalm:
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 01:06:22 AM by Architeuthis »
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #106 on: June 21, 2021, 12:36:32 PM »
It all depends on what you are into. I'm very sensitive to looks; I'm not saying that every girl I date has to be Margot Robbie, but I have to be attracted to her physically.   Just like there are things that erode an attraction over time - if Margot Robbie smelled like a dumpster, or continually played the victim on everything, that would diminish her attractiveness to me - there are things that increase attraction over time.  I'm a big smile guy, so a girl that laughs a lot or has a sexy smile will be attractive to me even if at first glance she's not model hot.

I definitely don't have model standards. But I do know right away.

And I guess that's the question for people in similar situations - can you really say "just friends"?
Some people have said here that they see everyone of the opposite sex to be a prospect, so that "just friends" can never really apply. I do not see everyone of the opposite sex to be a prospect, but I could tell you very quickly and easily who out of my friends would be. So the bottom line should be the same: shouldn't take too much soul searching to figure out who you could be platonic with and who you wouldn't be given the right circumstances.

Online ariich

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2021, 11:52:54 PM »
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.

I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.

My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).

Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #108 on: June 22, 2021, 07:10:58 AM »
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.

I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.

My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).

Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.

But this is why this subject is so difficult; there aren't clear lanes, or clear pathways.    I've said a lot of things here that are seemingly contradictory, but they are all true and I have to navigate all of them, sometimes in real time.  I don't assume everyone is like me, but I imagine some are.

I do have a hard time not ever even once not imagining what "something further" would be like. FOR ME, that's natural.  That's not at all to say I lust after every woman in my life - I don't - or that it undermines every friendship - it doesn't - nor does it mean that it is hard to be friends with females (especially if they are partners of my friends; I'm pretty solid in that department and have a track record of not mowing other men's lawns) - it's not.  We're, I think, all adults here, and we're allowed to be contradictory, we're allowed to be fluid, and we're allowed to explore possibilities even if intellectual in nature.   But presumably, just like we THINK about telling our bosses to fuck right off, we don't always do it.

These, however, are all the reasons why this is a bad idea as scripted, because all THREE parties get to do just that, AND in real time, AND with alcohol involved.  Maybe the girls DOESN'T mean to entice.  Maybe she gets there and it feels good to feel attracted, and things change.  Maybe the girlfriend is cool with it in theory, but then decides it doesn't work in practice.  Or she gets there, and sees that it's not what she envisioned and it's now a problem. 

I don't know; unless you're willing to accept all possible consequences - which is your prerogative - this seems like the opposite of "you miss 100% of the shots you don't take."    Meaning, you can't get into trouble if you avoid the whole thing to begin with.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #109 on: June 22, 2021, 07:42:33 AM »
I think the two issues, from my POV are 1) the secrecy and 2) her expectations.

I wouldn’t have any issues with anyone in a couple hanging out with someone from the attracted sex. If your partner doesn’t trust you or vice versa, that’s an issue to work out, not placate. Always be honest and make sure you’re clear, crystal clear, with the boundaries with new lady.

My two best friends are girls and my girlfriend doesn’t care anymore. She did at the beginning when there were some insecurities but we have trust. If she wanted to hang out with guys, that’s fine. I trust her completely. If she finds someone better than me, that would suck but i wouldn’t want her staying with me simply because I’m keeping her away from something better.
I completely agree with this and everything else you've said in this thread. I've never had any difficulty with being friends with the attracted sex, nor had issues with my wife (or past girlfriends) doing so. And I especially agree with your point that if a couple does find it's an issue, they should try to resolve it instead of placating it and pretending it's not there (and, what, just never making friends with the attracted sex again?).

Most of the replies in this thread I just can't really relate to.

I think you're a little mixed up here Rich.  Most aren't saying they can't have a friendship with a girl.  Most are saying She and he are already crossing a line that he needs to pull back from. If he was honest from the get go with his significant other then he wouldn't be in this situation. 

You can't relate to most of the responses here because you would have done the correct thing and talked it over with your wife. Because you've had this honesty, she can trust you and you do not have that feeling of being sneaking or untrustworthy.

Me? I'm like you.  Very honest with my wife and she actually meets all my friends and loves hanging out with them. Guys and girls.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #110 on: June 22, 2021, 09:00:13 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #111 on: June 22, 2021, 09:18:28 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.

I see a hint of truth in that though.

What is the only reason why we inhibit our sexual desires?

Culture and Society. All cultures and societies view Sexual Desires differently. And because the Bible perspective mindset dominates the world. The world view of Sexual Desires is dictated and based on that bible and is therefore considered "Wrong".

But, the bible itself clashes with other mindsets and perspectives of Sexual Desires.

But if one were to do away with our Society and Cultures we would be like animals and mating any women we find desirable. And women would do just the same.

What if we were to be just like the birds and the women would search for us men, while us men work hard to perform a dance, flaunt our feathers, provide the best pebble, or build the best sturdy house.


Also, Alcohol facilitates these Sexual Desires. Causing all that morality done by Society and Culture to completely be disregarded. As people act out their thoughts while on alcohol.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2021, 12:44:57 PM »
It's not the only reason, though, and that is my point and I think part of Adami's as well.   There are too many people, too many permutations, too many variables here to isolate one. Do I tell my wife everything because I'm the most honest guy I know?  Or because I love her so much I can't bear to hurt her?  Or because I'm so needy that I can bear to have her mad at me so I get in front of it as fast as I can?   Or because I'm so scared and anxious that I'll lose my best friend?   I get to the same place, but for very different reasons, or, maybe, because of all those reasons in part? 

It's a separate discussion for a different thread, but some of this is a more general resistance to the idea that "everyone isn't just like me".  Humans are joiners, and some of us have a real problem with the understanding that everyone ISN'T just like them, that we DON'T always look at the same situation the same way.  I remember there was a thread... I forget if it was here or at mp.com (though I seem to remember a particular poster here being rather emphatic on the point) where someone posited "we're all a LITTLE gay, it's just a matter of circumstances", and if you denied that, you were "lying to yourself or us".  And I can tell you that while I respect that there's no harm in that, while I honor what anyone gets turned on by, while I think it's no one's business but your own, I can tell you that I have never even had the inclination to experiment, despite what I would generally consider ample opportunity.

The trick to all of this, including the OP's predicament, is in making the effort to be honest with ourselves, even when it's against our best interest:   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/science-choice/201708/the-many-ways-we-lie-ourselves

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #113 on: June 22, 2021, 02:50:28 PM »
Again,  my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.


uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.

Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?


Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression.  I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement.   :lol


Let me clarify that a bit.  What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter.  But I can only speak for myself here.  Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships?  Yeah, sure, I guess so.  I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare.  When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:


1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked


Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as:  2 + 2 = potato


I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man.   Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.




Offline jammindude

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #114 on: June 22, 2021, 03:05:57 PM »
To paint a blanket in absolutes is never going to be accurate, because there are always exceptions. But the reason why we are giving NYC the warnings is because Barry’s point (that men and women usually can’t be “just friends”) is true more often than it’s not true. But it doesn’t apply to absolutely everyone, always, 100% of the time.

Also, most of us have witnessed (or been party to) a situation that began just like Adami’s exception….until it wasn’t. So for a great majority of us, it’s just safer to remove the issue at the roots.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #115 on: June 22, 2021, 03:10:08 PM »
  When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:


1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked


Damn, I've never been so happy I'm not a woman. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Adami

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #116 on: June 22, 2021, 03:17:38 PM »
  When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:


1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked


Damn, I've never been so happy I'm not a woman. :lol

Sounds like you would’ve been boinked.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #117 on: June 22, 2021, 03:20:32 PM »
Sounds that way. :lol
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Adami

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #118 on: June 22, 2021, 03:25:18 PM »
Again,  my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.


uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.

Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?


Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression.  I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement.   :lol


Let me clarify that a bit.  What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter.  But I can only speak for myself here.  Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships?  Yeah, sure, I guess so.  I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare.  When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:


1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked


Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as:  2 + 2 = potato


I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man.   Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.

I appreciate the clarification. I agree you’re right more often than not with that. I just get a little sensitive about those blanket statements because I don’t think about banging boinking people as often as most guys and it’s never fun to be seen as less than or defective for it. All good. Boink on bro.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #119 on: June 22, 2021, 03:31:58 PM »
In fact Adami…I actually strive to be more like you in that way
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Offline Adami

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #120 on: June 22, 2021, 03:46:58 PM »
In fact Adami…I actually strive to be more like you in that way

In most ways I’d assume.  :millahhhh
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Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #121 on: June 22, 2021, 03:58:41 PM »
Again,  my two (three before one passed) best friends are girls. No tension or anything.


uh, I don't think anyone here is saying that platonic relationships between men and women are impossible, but I admit I didn't read every post here.

Didn’t you? You said it’s not possible. I’m 36. So I’m in that age range. Maybe I misread?


Yeah, actually I re-read my post and I can see how you got that impression.  I use a lot of sarcasm and I don't always color it green, but I was being sarcastic with that statement.   :lol


Let me clarify that a bit.  What I'm saying is based on my own experience with this, maintaining a 100% platonic relationship with a woman when I was a young man was, for all intents and purposes, a non-starter.  But I can only speak for myself here.  Can there be 100% platonic male/female relationships?  Yeah, sure, I guess so.  I think it can and does happen, but I also think it's pretty rare.  When I was in my prime sexual years there were three kinds of women to me:


1. Women I was boinking
2. Women I was going to be boinking
3. Women I had already boinked


Platonic relationships with women made about as much sense to me as:  2 + 2 = potato


I tend to think most young people struggle with this the same way I struggled with it as a young man.  Pretty sure I spent my entire 20's with a perpetual boner.

Ahhhh...those days we're good days. They're gone now, but happy to have had them ;D

(bonus points if anyone can guess the quote)

Offline TAC

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #122 on: June 22, 2021, 06:11:27 PM »

Ahhhh...those days we're good days. They're gone now, but happy to have had them ;D

(bonus points if anyone can guess the quote)


Um...WilliamMunny maybe?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #123 on: June 24, 2021, 07:23:11 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #124 on: June 24, 2021, 08:19:55 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

I don't know what to say to that.  I don't think it's absolute.  I can't say what others' want the standard to be, but my brain can work on multiple levels.   Even women I find attractive aren't just a "sexual resource".   If we're going to assume that all men (and all women) are not the same then we can't really use the standard that someone is "a population of people who are just like me".   We're all complicated, multi-faceted people who have varying levels of attributes.   

And - and I get that this is going to be problematic - so what if someone does?  Isn't that the beauty of the melting pot?  Some of us have zero sex drive, and some of us have raging sex drives, and all points in between.    Man or woman, if someone views the opposite sex as a "sexual resource", why is that necessarily bad?  The rest of us can choose or not to participate in that.   I'm no Zak Efron, so for me, a woman that views males as a "sexual resource" is probably on the outskirts of things; but so what?  I'm not here to tell people what they should or should not think. 

Quote
That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

With respect, I'm not sure that's ENTIRELY true. I think it's a little... harsh to call a way of thinking a "personality flaw".  Would a promiscuous woman have a "personality flaw"?  I guess I'm a guy, so I'm biased, but for me, it's less about men and women generally than the specific instance.   My wife is an attractive woman, and she gets attention from males.  She's also one of those women that feels it's "easier" to have male friends, so most of her friends ARE male.  I kind of don't buy that generally - I've heard that from pretty much every one of my serious relationships; it's for another thread, but I think there's something else going on there - but I trust my wife to tell me her truth.   I don't have a problem with any of her friends, except one.  I'm not sure I could put into words why, but it was just different.  Whatever I feel about the generalities of males and females, the problem there - and there was a problem, at least with me - it was about that specific instance.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #125 on: June 24, 2021, 08:49:14 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #126 on: June 24, 2021, 09:00:32 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.

I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses.  We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in.  I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #127 on: June 24, 2021, 09:02:03 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #128 on: June 24, 2021, 09:22:52 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.

So much this. My guy friends and I will talk about our sex lives with each other, but it’s not really in an explicit way, more in line with discussing our overall relationships, and I’ve never looked at women solely in a sexual way. Most of my friends are girls yet the only two sexual partners I’ve ever had are my ex-girlfriend and my current girlfriend. I think the culture shift plays a role, but I also think the increase in divorce cases has led to more boys being raised mostly by their mothers, leading to them not picking up the classic toxic masculinity characteristics from their dads during their formative years.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #129 on: June 24, 2021, 09:29:07 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.

I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses.  We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in.  I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.

Men having been conditioned to treat women as sexual objects is very much real, I don't disagree with that.  I just didn't read Mora's post thinking about it that way since it seemed the discussion was about natural sexual desires of men.  Society plays a role here too, for sure.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #130 on: June 24, 2021, 09:47:13 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

That's only American Men though. There are vast cultures that view women differently. One mindset/perspective does not equal how all Men and Women throughout the world think.


You know how my people treated women, we treated them with respect, and held them highly. Women are the basis for our social structure, and is how we view the world. We don't view it in the Father/Male sense, we view it through the Mother/Female sense. The women decided which man to be with, Men had to do things in order for them to marry them, they build them a house, and that house is the womens womb and home, her responsibility is to take care of that home, as it houses her and her children. The house is not the mans, the only thing that a man takes care of in this sort of responsibility is the fields where he plants his seed in the womb of Mother Earth with his planting stick.

Due to this, women also viewed themselves with respect, and understood their roles and responsibilities in our societies. We are clan based, and our lineage traces back from our grandmothers. In order to save a clan, one has to strive to have a female, and we know what that means. Her responsibility in this case for the clan is to reproduce until she has that daughter.


Cultural roles, and responsibilities play into account on how Men treat Women, and how women also treat themselves.


American Men and Women roles and responsibilities, what are they?

Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.

Humans themselves are the ones that give this natural process meaning. Animals have that instinct to reproduce and will search out for that, and also each species has their own way of mating and flirting.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 09:58:52 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Chino

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #131 on: June 24, 2021, 10:02:19 AM »

Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.


No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is. I believe you're thinking of cellular mitosis. Many large creatures such as certain species of sharks reproduce asexually. They're not splicing themselves in two. They carry the offspring to terms and deliver them at birth, they just don't need gametes from two different individuals to get pregnant.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #132 on: June 24, 2021, 10:44:30 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

That doesn't mean it will manifest in real life, you could learn how to behave like 18th century nobility around women even as a young horny guy and none would be the wiser and these would just be your private thoughts. But it is kind of a personality flaw. It also contributes to this awkward area in relationships where guys have to tiptoe around having female friends, because if you have one boyfriend who admits he'd never have a platonic relationship with a woman if it wasn't for objective circumstances, you'll want to put an unnecessary and unfair leash on your next boyfriend, just in case.

I may be misunderstanding here, but I would say the personality flaw is when a man cannot control his hormones, not when the man has natural sexual desires for a woman. I'm not entirely sure we can control our desires in our heads but we certainly can control our desires with our actions.

I'm not speaking for Mora here but there is a part of this "flaw" that has to do with conditioning and isn't just about hormones or impulses.  We all have hormones and impulses and we all have been conditioned to a smaller or larger extent to think about how we view the mating pool and interact within in.  I don't think it has as much to do with promiscuity but instead the beliefs in some individuals that others are there merely to satisfy their needs and therefore - in this example - women as human beings are seen as less than important in the equation and are objectified down to merely a sexual being.

This is a larger question for a different conversation, but I struggle with the concept here in the context of women versus in the general context of human behavior.  There are people who believe ALL people that aren't them are merely there to satisfy their needs, sexual or otherwise (would anyone argue with me saying "Trump"?).   I struggle with the isolation of certain feelings out of context.  There are times when I DO look at my wife... not as an object, maybe, but as a sexual being.  She's beautiful, to me, and desirable, to me.   But not ALL times; the vast majority of times she is my partner, and my equal, intellectually, emotionally, and practically.  Maybe even my superior. 

Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #133 on: June 24, 2021, 10:46:08 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.

Which is ironic and counter productive.  If the "self-repression" was so healthy and effective, we wouldn't be where we are.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #134 on: June 24, 2021, 10:53:24 AM »
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.

I'm not seeing where anyone said that.   ???

Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want.  That is why I said "in this example."  It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.

I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life.  I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women.  Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #135 on: June 24, 2021, 11:13:26 AM »
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.

I'm not seeing where anyone said that.   ???

Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want.  That is why I said "in this example."  It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.

I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life.  I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women.  Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?

I've dated a couple girls who seemed to only want my dick (and I'm nothing to brag about, so don't take it that way).  I've legit felt before that I was just an object for sex. (and once I felt that way, I got away from such females).  I think this happens with older women though, never in my youth did I experience that.

But I think many men can say women have used them for their wealth and security.  I'm not entirely sure it's that different.  While men desire sex, women sometimes desire security from a man.  It can be conditioned as well. 

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #136 on: June 24, 2021, 11:22:00 AM »
No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is.

Some levity...

https://youtu.be/_3NjYhgg-qQ
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #137 on: June 24, 2021, 11:31:24 AM »
Some of these things sound like rules, and I don't see how these rules can be one size fits all.

I'm not seeing where anyone said that.   ???

Of course there are somepeople (men and women) who see others only as tools to get what they want.  That is why I said "in this example."  It wasn't meant to extrapolate to ALL men or YOU, Stadler.

I'm trying to think of any woman I know personally who hasn't at least once felt totally objectified by some man somewhere down the line at some point in their life.  I'm sure there must be, but I'd say it's a pretty commonplace experience for most women.  Can you men here in this discussion say that about the guys you know?

I've dated a couple girls who seemed to only want my dick (and I'm nothing to brag about, so don't take it that way).  I've legit felt before that I was just an object for sex. (and once I felt that way, I got away from such females).  I think this happens with older women though, never in my youth did I experience that.

But I think many men can say women have used them for their wealth and security.  I'm not entirely sure it's that different.  While men desire sex, women sometimes desire security from a man.  It can be conditioned as well.

Oh I have no doubt that men can feel objectified sexually too.  I also have no doubt that some people ENJOY feeling objectified.  I was making a comment on how commonplace it can be for women moreso than for men.

And I definitely agree that women have been conditioned to look to men for providing wealth and security.  I can hear my mom clearly in my head now (because of how often she said this in my formative years) "It's just as easy to love a rich man as it is to love a poor man."  I think back on those words of "advice?" and shudder in revulsion.  Nowhere was the message to me, "If you want wealth and security you should go out and earn it."  <---this is my message to both my kids.  Make it happen for yourself and don't look to others for the things you want in life. 
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #138 on: June 24, 2021, 11:33:50 AM »
I know most people are just expressing their own position. Most of my objections have been to this specific sentence.

The bottom line is as much as some guys hate to admit this, there is really no such thing as "just friends" between males and females of ripe mating age. (say, 18 to around 45 years old or so). 

It just speaks as an absolute that, if anyone disagrees, they're lying to themselves. It's just not the case. It may very well be the case for many, if not most, men, but to present it as an absolute it just not true.
It's not even the case for most men. If most women for you fall into two categories a) not for (lol) boinking for a really good reason, so I won't be thinking about that b) possibly for boinking, so even if it shakes out differently and we become friends, she's still subconsciously in that category - that means you don't see women as people in a way that you do men, and not all men share your opinion. There's very, very, very few straight women who think about men in this way, so it's not a feature/problem of sexual attraction to the opposite sex, it's about how some men see women as some sort of a collective pool of sexual resource to tap into in life, and not like a population of people who are just like you.

Yeah, I honestly don't get this. My friends growing up never talked about women this way. There was no "locker room" talk. We had girls we liked and would talk about them (and not in a really explicit way either) but even when my hormones were going crazy I never felt that way about women. I think it might be partly generational and cultural, moreso than biological, with a shift taking place over the last few decades. Or maybe it is partly biological and there are some underlying factors. Of course one look at the sex industry would suggest otherwise - it's booming with men of all ages enjoying it generously. Which to me says that men are more-or-less the same as they always were, even if they appear much more refined on the most visible layers. Only now, perhaps, we are being held to the same standards of self-repression that women have known for centuries.
I'm quoting your post here because it kind of hits on what I keep thinking back to reading this last page. I would suggest that the tendency to objectify women has gone back thousands of years, be it prehistoric man or Eve getting us tossed the hell out of Eden. That to me suggests biological/instinctive. Or perhaps just thousands of years of conditioning. The important thing here, in my opinion, is that over the last however many thousands of years we're evolving right on out of that mentality. This won't be of any comfort to the women who feel they've been objectified, and it's no defense to that objectification, but I think it's reasonable to recognize that things have improved and are continuing to improve. I'm not sure that simply calling it a character flaw that somebody hasn't evolved quite as fast as we'd like is entirely fair. Societal change, which is what we're talking about here, is glacial in its progress.

Here's my other problem. Don't some women want to be objectified at times, and how are we defining objectification? This seems to me one of those nebulous things where different people will have different takes on what is or is not appropriate, and simply defaulting to the LCD will exclude the majority of women. By way of petty example, if I'm driving down the street and I see a pretty girl jogging and say to myself "wow, great ass," isn't that objectifying her? It's reducing a living breathing human to secondary sexual characteristic that happened to catch my attention. Would all women necessarily have a problem with people appreciating their better bits?


edit: Partially ninja'd by Harmony, but I'm not revising my post.  :lol
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Am I a bad person?
« Reply #139 on: June 24, 2021, 11:38:30 AM »

Also, Sex is a natural process that everything does to reproduce and multiply. Some are asexual and can reproduce by splicing itself and creating basically a clone of itself.


No to nitpick, but that's not what asexual reproduction is. I believe you're thinking of cellular mitosis. Many large creatures such as certain species of sharks reproduce asexually. They're not splicing themselves in two. They carry the offspring to terms and deliver them at birth, they just don't need gametes from two different individuals to get pregnant.

Yeah, that's what I meant.
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