Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Grappler]

How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?

Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?

I don't see it like that at all.  I see it as having compassion towards others.  Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people.  But not in this "me, my, I" American society.  How dare we have a little empathy for another family? 

I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view.  I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me.  My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it. 

[Chino]

How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?

Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?

I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".

[ReaPsTA]

I don't see it like that at all.  I see it as having compassion towards others.  Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people.  But not in this "me, my, I" American society.  How dare we have a little empathy for another family? 

Pre-2020 article on mask wearing in East Asia - https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/mask-appeal

Note there is an addictive component due to their perceived ability to hide against social interaction. They are not a purely pro-social behavior over there.

You also have to understand mask wearing in the context of Japanese culture, where even touching your nose when you're eating is seen as a major faux pas. I would theorize that it's less about a belief in the ability of a mask to contain air particles than it is about controlling sneezing or breathing with what are perceived over there as gross breath.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1467-9566.2012.01466.x - This article talks about it in more depth. Their masking only really got into gear during the 2004 Avian flu epidemic (can somewhat confirm this. I was young and it was long ago, but I don't recall seeing a single mask when I was over there).

Perhaps worst of all, people there were masking because they thought it should shield against radioactive isotopes! - https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2011-may-16-la-fg-japan-surgical-masks-20110515-story.html

Inasmuch as masking in Japan is related to any genuine sense of the collective good (and I'm not sure it is), it paints a dark portrait of a dark possible future in America.

I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view.  I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me.  My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it.

When I thought masks actually did anything I wore mine too. I prefer to be helpful. But most of the United States does not even require you to perform CPR when you see someone in front of you who is not breathing. We do not want to put people into situations where they can be blamed for their actions when they do not actively hurt anyone.

So let's say you walk into a gas station with ten people in it without a mask on. What % higher chance do those people have of dying of COVID if you wear a cloth mask or an N95? How do you measure that number? What number then is acceptable for telling people that their freedom gets taken away?

And, while I was checking the CPR thing, I found this recommendation from the Red Cross that masks be worn while giving CPR - https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/coronavirus-information/first-aid-cpr-aed-care-during-covid-19

I don't know in what universe wearing a mask when giving CPR isn't just insanity. From what I understand CPR has a pretty low success rate to begin with and now we're reducing the airflow of the breaths by wearing a mask!?!?!? All to maybe sorta stop COVID?

I'd bet a few hundred dollars that more people have been killed by wearing masks during CPR than have been saved by all the past nearly two years of general mask wearing. But I concede there's no way really to measure it.

[hunnus2000]

How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?

Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?

I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".

And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation. Why would parents be enraged by a simple precaution?

[Stadler]

Fallon can be good in a skit situation.  But he's a TERRIBLE interviewer.

I think the best person in late night right now is probably Kimmel.  Colbert has the intellect to be good, but he spends too much time portraying a fake funny persona.  I much preferred him on Comedy Central. 

I was really disappointed when Colbert moved away from CC

The reality is as a performer Colbert is not comfortable with going on a stage and putting on a sincere persona. He always has to have some wrapper around it. I don't know of any Late Night host this worked for.

I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show.  I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character.  Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.

[Stadler]

How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?

Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?

I can't understand how a parent could look at a tiny piece of blue fabric, something used for decades by doctors and used to prevent the spread of germs, and think "muzzle".

And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation. Why would parents be enraged by a simple precaution?

Well, you assume they consider it a "simple precaution".  That's the problem here.  We keep looking at this through our own personal lenses and are flabbergasted that other people aren't doing the same thing.  Duh, we're 331 million people, each with their own point of view and own set of experiences.   Take Grappler's post:  I deeply respect his point of view and appreciate his explanation as to why he arrives at some of the conclusions he does.  I think I've been pretty clear over the years here that I'm an attorney, and come at this from a more "legal" point of view, and a libertarian one at that.  So for me, the emphasis starts at the individual and moves out from there.  He and I, in good faith and through no fault of either of us, are coming at these issues from a completely opposite point of view.  It's foolish for me to expect Grappler to by default see things - and that means "defining things the say way" - exactly my way, and vice versa.  I would HOPE that through dialogue we could come to understand each other's point of view - "understand" does not mean "adopt" or "agree with", just "understand" - and we can move from there.

[cramx3]

Had a day/night out with my gf and her sister and her best friend to do things the sister wanted to do for her birthday.  Just an odd contrast of going into NYC and having to show vaccine cards and wear masks to drink boba tea, but when we got back to NJ (30 miles away) we went to Dave and Busters and it was completely packed, tons of kids, no masks to be seen and it's indoors.  No vaccine check to get in.  It felt like the old days basically, and that's after having to do every precation.  I think people around where I live, central NJ, are over covid (again, it was like this over the summer but December/January saw a lot of people go back into safe mode). 

NJ's covid numbers are so low, which I predicted a few weeks ago that come February covid would likely go away, that it feels like it's not even a thing anymore locally. NJ is also set to lift the in school mask mandate leaving public transportation the only remaining covid mask mandate (that I can think of at least). 

[ReaPsTA]

Had a day/night out with my gf and her sister and her best friend to do things the sister wanted to do for her birthday.  Just an odd contrast of going into NYC and having to show vaccine cards and wear masks to drink boba tea, but when we got back to NJ (30 miles away) we went to Dave and Busters and it was completely packed, tons of kids, no masks to be seen and it's indoors.  No vaccine check to get in.  It felt like the old days basically, and that's after having to do every precation.  I think people around where I live, central NJ, are over covid (again, it was like this over the summer but December/January saw a lot of people go back into safe mode). 

NJ's covid numbers are so low, which I predicted a few weeks ago that come February covid would likely go away, that it feels like it's not even a thing anymore locally. NJ is also set to lift the in school mask mandate leaving public transportation the only remaining covid mask mandate (that I can think of at least).

I was in New Jersey a couple months ago and had a similar experience.

[Harmony]

Parents being enraged seems to be all the rage, TBH.  Whether it is about masks, books needing to be burned, CRT.  I think people just want to be enraged and it doesn't take all that much to bring the torches and pitchforks out.

I often think of my grandparents and great grandparents and all of the things they endured in their life and then I look at all of us in our cushy lives banging away on our keyboards and getting apoplectic over every fucking thing and is like sanity has left this world.

[Stadler]

Parents being enraged seems to be all the rage, TBH.  Whether it is about masks, books needing to be burned, CRT.  I think people just want to be enraged and it doesn't take all that much to bring the torches and pitchforks out.

I often think of my grandparents and great grandparents and all of the things they endured in their life and then I look at all of us in our cushy lives banging away on our keyboards and getting apoplectic over every fucking thing and is like sanity has left this world.

I hear this loud and clear.

[Ben_Jamin]

How have things devolved to this level of anger towards educators, and even doctors?

Do you not understand why parents would be enraged by their children being muzzled?

I don't see it like that at all.  I see it as having compassion towards others.  Asian society has used masks in public long before covid, and it's because they have respect for other people.  But not in this "me, my, I" American society.  How dare we have a little empathy for another family? 

I have a degree in community health and I've always viewed the pandemic from that area, as opposed to an individual view.  I have no problem doing what is best for the common good instead of what is best for me.  My daughter has flourished in school - having a mask on is annoying, but she understands the reasoning for it.

That's not all of Asian Society. You're lumping in many different Asian Cultures into one general consensus. Chinese people wear masks because of how bad the pollution is there. Chinese people have no say in what they do.

Japanese people have a very unique culture, in which their behavior is based upon.

American Culture is based on rebels that left Europe because they did not like their current authority. They wanted something new and discovered something they wanted. Since it's inception, those European countries that colonized "America" have shown their behaviors, attitudes, and customs to the Native People of this land. What I see today in those descendants from Europe is no different than what my ancestors saw. It's the same attitudes, behaviors, and customs evolved into the now.

But let me say as well, Businesses do not have compassion and are doing things that are harming others. They're putting out shit that is in fact harming our very health. But yet, people still buy those products and contribute to the development of these toxins that pollute the oceans, the air quality and contaminate the soil.

https://oceansasia.org/covid-19-facemasks/

Our oceans will be flooded with an estimated 1.56 billion face masks in 2020 says a report released today by Hong-Kong-based marine conservation organization OceansAsia. This will result in an additional 4,680 to 6,240 metric tonnes of marine plastic pollution, says the report, entitled "Masks on the Beach: The Impact of COVID-19 on Marine Plastic Pollution." These masks will take as long as 450 years to break down, slowly turning into  micro plastics while negatively impacting marine wildlife and ecosystems.

[ProfessorPeart]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

[ReaPsTA]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

I mean dude come on

[Ben_Jamin]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

People don't even listen to their doctors and take their advice to stop drinking, to stop eating certain foods, or to start excercising. How do you expect people to listen when they don't even do that?

As long as you do you, and do what's best for yourself is all a man can do. This is where cultures clash and humans have various types of behaviors, attitudes, and mindsets based on those cultures.

[Ben_Jamin]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

I mean dude come on

And using verbiage like this is part of the problem and is the cause of the devolution of rational conversation.

[XeRocks81]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

I mean dude come on

it's been explained multiple times in this thread that the assertion that « masks don't work » is not true and yet here we are so I fully understand where professorpeart is coming from

[Grappler]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

I agree with this.  I went back and forth with some parents on social media yesterday and finally gave up and stopped responding - it was the same old tired arguments that I've heard from the same people for two years.  I told my daughter to not pay attention to any other kids not wearing masks today and let the grown-ups handle it.  She'll wear a mask until the school says it's ok to take them off, even though she doesn't really need to wear one.  We're choosing to teach her to be compassionate and think about others first, rather than herself, and to follow the rules (even if you don't agree with them).  Which is more to say than a lot of other parents are doing in this Me, My, I age. 

[cramx3]

NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th

[Grappler]

NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th

I don't see Illinois' school mandate lasting past the appeal process.  The legal decision is pretty sound and I generally agree with it.  I also agree with my school district taking a "wait and see" approach until the appeal plays out before making formal changes to their covid guidelines.  They telegraphed that move in a pre-emptive letter two weeks ago and asked for parents to remain patient.

That being said, some of the more vocal parents have mentioned that the schools are not enforcing mask wearing today, thus mollifying the ones that were raging against the school's initial response. 

My only concern is for my younger son, who isn't able to get the vaccine yet.  He relies on those around him to be vaccinated, immune and/or negative.  I just hope the omicron wave was heavy enough in our area to provide additional protection to him, since there will be kids in his preschool that have additional exposure at home with older siblings that are now maskless. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I typed up a lengthy, scathing reply on masks and scrapped it. What's the point? No one listens and is unwilling to reason.

I work in healthcare and will continue to wear them, as will my whole family. My son is at school right now and is probably the only one masked. A bunch of yokels sued and had the state school mask mandate overturned. Our Trump-loving district decided to roll with the downstate judge.

Whatever. There is no discourse anymore, just pure hate.

I agree with this.  I went back and forth with some parents on social media yesterday and finally gave up and stopped responding - it was the same old tired arguments that I've heard from the same people for two years.  I told my daughter to not pay attention to any other kids not wearing masks today and let the grown-ups handle it.  She'll wear a mask until the school says it's ok to take them off, even though she doesn't really need to wear one.  We're choosing to teach her to be compassionate and think about others first, rather than herself, and to follow the rules (even if you don't agree with them).  Which is more to say than a lot of other parents are doing in this Me, My, I age.

You can comply, and not agree with the "rule", but that threshold can wear thin.

I do wonder how many that are masking are doing it just because it's required and don't really care one way if they have to wear a mask or not. Is that showing compassion or just going with the status quo?

The way some are making it out is as if everyone who is masking agrees. People can lie and people can say anything to get someone off their back or their shoulder. When a persons barriers are down, they can speak their thoughts and you can get their truth.

I find it fascinating how people can hide their true thoughts and feelings from others, while showing their true colors around certain people. I always ask people, "do you truly know someone?" "Are you sure they're really telling you the truth about their health?" People lie to their own close relatives in order for them not to worry, to where the relatives end up surprised when that person dies from something health related, usually responding with, "I didn't know they were that bad."

[ReaPsTA]

I do wonder how many that are masking are doing it just because it's required and don't really care one way if they have to wear a mask or not. Is that showing compassion or just going with the status quo?

The way some are making it out is as if everyone who is masking agrees.

I share the same thoughts. The moment you take away requirements to wear masks almost no one does and out of those remaining people how many of them really believe it?

[cramx3]

NJ's in school mask mandate is ending March 7th

I don't see Illinois' school mandate lasting past the appeal process.  The legal decision is pretty sound and I generally agree with it.  I also agree with my school district taking a "wait and see" approach until the appeal plays out before making formal changes to their covid guidelines.  They telegraphed that move in a pre-emptive letter two weeks ago and asked for parents to remain patient.

That being said, some of the more vocal parents have mentioned that the schools are not enforcing mask wearing today, thus mollifying the ones that were raging against the school's initial response. 

My only concern is for my younger son, who isn't able to get the vaccine yet.  He relies on those around him to be vaccinated, immune and/or negative.  I just hope the omicron wave was heavy enough in our area to provide additional protection to him, since there will be kids in his preschool that have additional exposure at home with older siblings that are now maskless. 

With no kids, I really don't know nor do I really get into the policy with the schools.  My understanding is that it's a complete clusterfuck from my dad friends.  The change happening in NJ is from the governor loosening restrictions as he said because case loads are low and vaccination rates are high.  The schools are still open to do enforce their own rules and the same Dad friends figure there will still be lots of arguing between parents and school admins.

[KevShmev]

I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show.  I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character.  Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.

This seems about right.  Colbert is very smart and pretty funny, but it's like he is always "on."  From the clips I have seen, he just doesn't seem like a guy who can kick back and relax and have a casual chat with a guest.  He definitely has that "I want to always be the smartest guy in the room" think going on. 

[XJDenton]

Sweden is removing all of its restrictions Wednesday (weak as they already were). Seems a tad premature to me but hopefully it doesn't backfire.

[ReaPsTA]

I don't know; I've read some articles that said that Colbert was going to move AWAY from the persona and try to be more authentic on his show.  I tend to think that's probably happened; I don't watch him enough to know for sure, but the roster of guests seems to tend away from the character he played on CC and lean into a presentation that is more indicative of his own character.  Either way, it's too strident for me, and too... not angry, exactly, but it's of a kind with Seth Meyers; they ridicule so much that it's not illuminating in any way, it's just alienating if you're not in full agreement with the premise.

This seems about right.  Colbert is very smart and pretty funny, but it's like he is always "on."  From the clips I have seen, he just doesn't seem like a guy who can kick back and relax and have a casual chat with a guest.  He definitely has that "I want to always be the smartest guy in the room" think going on.

That you for articulating this perfectly. When I say Colbert needs a shtick, it's not that he's still playing a character but he's doing... the things you said.

[lonestar]

California to lift mask mandates Feb 15th.

[cramx3]

Sweden is removing all of its restrictions Wednesday (weak as they already were). Seems a tad premature to me but hopefully it doesn't backfire.

Interesting because it looks like Sweden only just started coming down.  Maybe another couple weeks would be better.  NJ, my local state, is basically already down to levels from before omicron and when things were "good" during the summer.  I feel like that's a good time to loosen up restrictions and mandates and yet they are still waiting a month to lift the in school mask mandate.  I guess what's an extra month at this point to see how much lower covid can go locally.

[ProfessorPeart]

If you have Medicare you might want to find other insurance because it apparently gives you covid. Who knew?

Over 70% of Americans who died with COVID, died on Medicare, and some people want #MedicareForAll ?

— Thomas Massie (@RepThomasMassie) February 9, 2022

https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1491441851748204546?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[cramx3]

  wtf

[Orbert]

Idiot either doesn't understand the difference between correlation and causation, or does understand it but knows that his constituents don't.

100% of people who've died from Covid drank a glass of water at some point in their lives.  Obviously water -> Covid -> death.

[MetalJunkie]

I don't know if this has been posted here, but I've wasted hours in this subreddit.

/r/HermanCainAward

[Grappler]

I've wasted too much time reading stuff from local parents on the school mask mandate here in Illinois.

A bunch of parents are just making online noise and sending letters to the school board daily, pushing them to follow their interpretation of the judge's decision.  The school district is standing fast, that they have interpreted the decision in their way.  But the district is being peaceful about it - they require masks still, despite the judge's ruling, but are not enforcing disciplinary procedures for kids that don't wear masks.  They won't put the kids in the middle of the fight and punish them for their parent's choices.

I feel for the principals of the schools.  There was a livestream of a committee meeting to start to brainstorm how to move to a mask optional plan.  The two principals said that there was a lot of online chatter, and at the middle school, the parents started getting into it too much on campus that the principal started worrying for the staff's safety. 

Included in the meeting was that the district has about 100 kids with legitimate medical issues - we even have a kid with a heart transplant in one school.  There is ZERO compassion from any of the anti-mask parents about these at-risk kids.  I'm thankful that the superintendent is making sure that they aren't forgotten.

I've been asking my daughter about it each day and she said she saw some kids with no masks.  Our principal said it's about 15-20 kids out of 400 at the school that won't wear masks.  That makes me feel proud that most parents are still doing what the school asks.

[Stadler]

This is going to come off way more uncaring and unsympathetic than I really mean it, but...   do 1,000 or 2,000 kids all have to do something because 100 MIGHT be impacted?   When my daughter was in elementary school, there was a kid that was allergic to just about everything under the sun:  peanuts, red dye #32, hell, he might have been allergic TO the sun for all I know.   The parents took that obligation seriously; THEY made sure that when there were birthdays or what not that they had separate treats for him, THEY made sure that his participation in school was as safe as it could be.  Why is it the obligation of everyone else?

Interestingly enough, many parents - I know we did this at least once - would often reach out to those parents and ask what could be provided so the child could feel included.  I don't recall if they ever took us up on that, but the point is, those that care, will, and those that don't, you can't legislate that.

[Grappler]

You're right, nothing is requiring the school to do something special to make sure that those specific children are protected from covid.   I am happy that their situation is being taken into consideration - these kids don't have the option to have permanent remote learning anymore.  Their parents are relying on mask usage as one layer of protection for their kids.

But yet, kids are NOT allowed to bring any food into the schools with nuts, on behalf of the small fraction of kids that have serious nut allergies. 

How is it that we have to make considerations for food allergies, but not covid?  A kid could share a peanut butter sandwich with an allergic kid, who could die within minutes in the school lunchroom.  That is a HUGE concern for some parents. 

All of a sudden it's not important that a covid-positive kid being in school and inadvertently transmitting the virus to a child that had a heart transplant and is on immunosuppressant drugs, and that child could die a few days later?

I'm not expecting the schools to bend over backwards for some families, and I am wanting a mask-optional policy.  But I do note the hypocrisy from the anti-mask/anti-covid parents, who want to push hard for more lax, or even no covid mitigations while also making sure that their kid is protected from a peanut, or bullying, or whatever might affect them.

[Stadler]

You're right, nothing is requiring the school to do something special to make sure that those specific children are protected from covid.   I am happy that their situation is being taken into consideration - these kids don't have the option to have permanent remote learning anymore.  Their parents are relying on mask usage as one layer of protection for their kids.

But yet, kids are NOT allowed to bring any food into the schools with nuts, on behalf of the small fraction of kids that have serious nut allergies. 

How is it that we have to make considerations for food allergies, but not covid?  A kid could share a peanut butter sandwich with an allergic kid, who could die within minutes in the school lunchroom.  That is a HUGE concern for some parents. 

All of a sudden it's not important that a covid-positive kid being in school and inadvertently transmitting the virus to a child that had a heart transplant and is on immunosuppressant drugs, and that child could die a few days later?

I'm not expecting the schools to bend over backwards for some families, and I am wanting a mask-optional policy.  But I do note the hypocrisy from the anti-mask/anti-covid parents, who want to push hard for more lax, or even no covid mitigations while also making sure that their kid is protected from a peanut, or bullying, or whatever might affect them.

My point wasn't to highlight the hypocrisy of the anti-mask people; my point was to say "how should we handle these generally?".  I'm not at all assuming that we handle the "peanut allergy" correctly.  But having said that, why does "hypocrisy" surprise you?  We can spend the rest of the afternoon talking about the hypocrisy of people on BOTH sides of the debate.  Women's bodies are sacred, can't legislate their decisions to abort or not, but you can tell me what I should or should not inject into MY body? Why isn't my body my choice? I'm not advocating either position (I'm pro-choice, myself) but highlighting that there's no monopoly here on hypocrisy.