Coronavirus Thread v.2

[bosk1]

I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory.  I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.

Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.

[XJDenton]

I would be also interested. I think I have an understanding of why they are almost certain to be safe, but I would like to hear from someone with the requisite background to explain it.

[millahh]

I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory.  I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.

Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.

Sure thing, should be able to one this afternoon!

[Dublagent66]

Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.

I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.

People fear covid and people fear big government.  That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.

I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears.  For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things.  If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear.  However, I'm not afraid of needles.  A lot of people out there are terrified of needles.  That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.

People who trust the internet over doctors should look inward.

Uh, doctors use the internet too.

Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.

Hahaha Tim.  I just spit my drink out!    You're so right.  PW isn't good.  It's great!

[Grappler]

Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.

I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.

People fear covid and people fear big government.  That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.

I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears.  For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things.  If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear.  However, I'm not afraid of needles.  A lot of people out there are terrified of needles.  That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.

There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults.  Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc.  Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it. 

When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions.  What angers me the most are people who spend their time actively railing against the covid vaccine.  If you don't want it, fine, but stop telling people not to get it and stop writing things about how it's ineffective.  My wife's cousin and aunt are absolutely against the covid vaccine, but got vaccinated in December because they couldn't bear to cancel an annual Christmas tradition to go see a play.  The theater had a vaccination policy in place.  Yet, her cousin is still going online and posting how she'll never get "the jab."  Political posturing online is more important to them than being truthful. 

Just this morning, I read something written by a person local to me, who copied and pasted an opinion article about the CEO of Pfizer.  The CEO plainly said that "two shots of our vaccine are not effective against Omicron, while three shots provides better protection."   He was being honest about the vaccine, and it's nothing new.  The opinion piece just slandered the CEO left and right, twisting his words into an admission that Pfizer's vaccine is purposely ineffective against covid. 

That kind of crap needs to disappear, but sadly, it won't.

[bosk1]

There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults.  Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc.  Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it.

True.  But it isn't always simply a case of being "lazy about their health."  I'll give a personal example.  For a long time, I didn't get annual flu shots.  I got other shots, and I take other preventative measures for other things.  But I wouldn't get flu shots.  And it wasn't due to being anti vaccination or anything like that.  It was simply because I noticed that I would get very sick immediately after getting them. 

My doctor at the time didn't help the situation.  When I mentioned it to her, she twisted my words and basically went on a rant about how "it's a myth that flu shots give you the flu."  It was incredibly offputting to the point where I just didn't bother to bring it up with her anymore.  Years later, with a different doctor, I got a much different response and approach.  She explained that it isn't about the flu shot "giving you the flu," but rather that, as with any medication or vaccination, some people can simply have reactions of varying severity where the symptoms often look like the thing the vaccination is trying to prevent, and that is likely what was happening to me. 

There was more to it than that that was also helpful.  But long story short--the decision on the flu vaccines was not due to laziness, but was a conscious decision weighing the negative effects it was having on me vs. the low risk of severe flu-related complications.

When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions. 

Very true.  And to me, one of the most unfortunate aspects of that is that it happens on both sides of the issue, but each side often seems to have blinders to that fact, and when they point out that "people's political beliefs and social media are the primary influences in how they are making their decisions," what they really mean is that those are the primary influences "for anyone who disagrees with me, but I and my side are immune from that."  I see a lot of that, even in this thread.

[Orbert]

For a long time, getting the flu shot was simply a matter of hating needles versus the odds of getting the flu.  I almost never get colds or even the flu, but I hate getting shots, so not getting a flu shot was a no-brainer.  Now that I'm older (and weaker ), there is real danger associated with the flu.  I could be fucked up for weeks, and that would suck.  So getting a flu shot is now the norm.  I don't fear needles, I just really don't like them.  They hurt.  But it's less than a second of pain versus weeks of physical suckage.  No-brainer.

Covid is the same thing.  Needles suck, but getting Covid could be infinitely worse, so I get the shot.  Side effects?  Whatever.  There is always some chance of side effects, to the point where to me it's not even a factor.  Young, otherwise healthy people die from Covid.  If I get the vaccine and it turns out that my pancreas will fail in 10 years or some shit, that's still better than dying now.  No-brainer.

[Ben_Jamin]

Here's another fantastic article in Psychology Today...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cui-bono/202112/irreconcilable-differences-and-inherent-conflicting-interests

We have no trouble understanding inherent conflicts between animals from different species, especially predator and prey. What is good for a predator is not good for the prey, and no moral value or moral rule can resolve their conflicting interests.

More difficult to accept is the fact that there are sometimes inherent conflicts between human beings and that morality cannot resolve all of these conflicts. Our tendency to believe in universal moral truths leads to the false conclusion that there is always a morally correct solution to every conflict (Johnson, 2007). But sometimes what is good for you is not good for me, and no moral principle can tell us what is "truly good" for everyone...

...So, what can you do when people start doing things that are good for them but bad for you? You could attempt to convince them that what they are doing is not in their best self-interest. That is a tough sell, even if it is true that you know better than they do what is best for them, because our natural cognitive bias is that we are doing the right thing for ourselves. And if they are in fact acting in their own best self-interest, trying to convince them otherwise would involve lying and denying reality.

Alternatively, you can try appealing to moral principles to persuade people to behave differently. You can tell them that their behavior is harmful, unfair, disloyal, disrespectful, or disgusting. You can threaten retaliation. If you succeed in making them feel ashamed, guilty, embarrassed, or fearful enough, they will stop doing what is good for them but bad for you.

Unfortunately, there are costs associated with winning a moral argument. Using moral arguments or threats to get someone to behave differently might be good for you (in the short run), but not good for the other person. He or she is giving up something good in order to avoid shame, guilt, embarrassment, or retribution. The person will remember what happened and—you guessed right—may retaliate later.

What, then, is the ideal solution when your interests conflict with the interests of others? Sorry, but there is no ideal solution. You can seek to behave in such a way that the results are good both for you and for others. But if you enlist in the military or have children or simply live among other people, you will inevitably face situations where what is good for you is not good for the other person. When these conflicts of interest are non-life-and-death, your choice is to sacrifice your happiness for the happiness of the other person or insist that they sacrifice their happiness for yours. Maybe you can compromise with a third option that is neither best nor worst for either of you. Or, if you have an extended relationship, take turns being the happy one. None of these are ideal for anyone, but reality is often not ideal.

[Grappler]

You're right, and my experience often colors my thoughts.  I know of no-one that has ever had a reaction to the flu shot, but I forget that a common complaint is that the "shot gave me the flu."  I'm lucky in that I've been in great health for my entire life and aside from annual physicals, I really have little experience with doctors that can change how I think about vaccines like you have. 

I've studied public health and am very pro-vaccine, regardless of age or reason.  I see no reason to not take advantage of the benefits that medicine has given us.  So thanks for the reminder that people often have personal experiences that differ from mine. 

For a long time, getting the flu shot was simply a matter of hating needles versus the odds of getting the flu.  I almost never get colds or even the flu, but I hate getting shots, so not getting a flu shot was a no-brainer.  Now that I'm older (and weaker ), there is real danger associated with the flu.  I could be fucked up for weeks, and that would suck.  So getting a flu shot is now the norm.  I don't fear needles, I just really don't like them.  They hurt.  But it's less than a second of pain versus weeks of physical suckage.  No-brainer.

Covid is the same thing.  Needles suck, but getting Covid could be infinitely worse, so I get the shot.  Side effects?  Whatever.  There is always some chance of side effects, to the point where to me it's not even a factor.  Young, otherwise healthy people die from Covid.  If I get the vaccine and it turns out that my pancreas will fail in 10 years or some shit, that's still better than dying now.  No-brainer.

I'm the same way with needles, though shots don't bother me as much as having blood drawn.  I had an experience when I was young where I had to provide a blood sample.  The doctor was older and this was before we had the nice venipuncture stuff.  He had the old-school, hand-drawn syringe and shaky hands.   

I've always been affected by that, to this day.  In fact, I turned so pale once about 15 years ago that my doctor left the room and got me a can of coke after he took my blood.   

[lonestar]

I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory.  I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.

Matt, if you have the time and inclination to give a short, obviously over simplified primer on that, I am genuinely interested.

Sure thing, should be able to one this afternoon!

Very interested as well. I remember a while back the Times did a breakdown of the Pfizer vaxx production process and I learned so frikkin much about how the shot works from that piece...

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/health/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html

[Stadler]

Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.

I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.

People fear covid and people fear big government.  That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.

I think people come up with excuses to hide their real fears.  For example, I hate taking pills or vitamins cause I'm afraid of choking on the damn things.  If certain pills have side effects, that just re-enforces the fear.  However, I'm not afraid of needles.  A lot of people out there are terrified of needles.  That alone could be preventing them from getting the jab, regardless if they are afraid of side effects.

There are some individuals who just never get vaccines, for whatever reason, as adults.  Whether it's an annual flu shot, shingles, etc.  Americans are lazy about their health and have no problem receiving treatment after becoming ill vs. attempting to be pro-active to prevent it. 

When it comes to covid though, I really think people's political beliefs and social media are the primarly influences in how they are making their decisions.  What angers me the most are people who spend their time actively railing against the covid vaccine.  If you don't want it, fine, but stop telling people not to get it and stop writing things about how it's ineffective.  My wife's cousin and aunt are absolutely against the covid vaccine, but got vaccinated in December because they couldn't bear to cancel an annual Christmas tradition to go see a play.  The theater had a vaccination policy in place.  Yet, her cousin is still going online and posting how she'll never get "the jab."  Political posturing online is more important to them than being truthful. 

Just this morning, I read something written by a person local to me, who copied and pasted an opinion article about the CEO of Pfizer.  The CEO plainly said that "two shots of our vaccine are not effective against Omicron, while three shots provides better protection."   He was being honest about the vaccine, and it's nothing new.  The opinion piece just slandered the CEO left and right, twisting his words into an admission that Pfizer's vaccine is purposely ineffective against covid. 

That kind of crap needs to disappear, but sadly, it won't.

I don't generally disagree with you on any of this, but the problem is that it's sort of a decision tree, in that once it becomes a "political" issue, the rules change.    "Politics" in America today means confrontation.  It means "zero sum game", where there is a clear winner and a clear loser.  I can't just have my political beliefs in a vacuum, I need to be heard, I need to make sure that you KNOW my position, honor it, and accept that you are a deplorable libtard. 

I know some here disagree with me (we've talked about this in the P/R section at some length) but in my view, it doesn't start to end unless and until we start to push back as strongly against the tactics of the argument as we do the substance, even when we agree with the substance.

[cramx3]

I had a very bad reaction to the one time I got a flu shot and hence never got one again.  But the flu is a known virus and I've caught it a few times in my life and know exactly what my decision to not get a shot puts me at risk to and I've accepted that.  I still don't get the flu shot and probably won't until I get older and/or feel like my risk has gotten worse. 

But the difference in covid is that there's still a lot of unknowns about it.  Everyone's reaction is different.  The risks are a bit more unknown with catching the virus.  So my belief is that it makes more sense to get the covid vaccine. 

What's interesting is that when people say the vaccines don't stop the spread, but I am pretty sure I am example of exactly how the spread stopped.  When I got covid, it seems I didn't spread it to anyone else even though I was at a new years eve party.  Everyone, including myself, was vaccinated and no one else got sick.  The spread of covid ended with me.  I bet if someone at that party was not vaccinated they probably would have gotten sick from me that night.

[Grappler]

What's interesting is that when people say the vaccines don't stop the spread, but I am pretty sure I am example of exactly how the spread stopped.  When I got covid, it seems I didn't spread it to anyone else even though I was at a new years eve party.  Everyone, including myself, was vaccinated and no one else got sick.  The spread of covid ended with me.  I bet if someone at that party was not vaccinated they probably would have gotten sick from me that night.

Pending my son's PCR test results, this was our experience too. 

Last week, my daughter tested positive and had minor symptoms.  My wife and I each felt off, and I think we both fought it off.  But my son didn't get sick at the same time.  He had two negative rapid tests Wednesday and yesterday.  If his PCR test comes back negative, I am in full belief that the 3 of us protected him with our own small version of herd immunity within the family.  That to me, is proof that the vaccine works the way it should. 

[XJDenton]

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832

This is interesting.

[cramx3]

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832

This is interesting.

Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.

[lonestar]

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832

This is interesting.

Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.

Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color

[Stadler]

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832

This is interesting.

Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.

Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color

Lonestar, speaking wise.   

[hefdaddy42]

RE: the flu shot

There was a time, long ago, before I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, that I was really casual with my health, and hated needles, and so I just never got the flu shot, even though my employer provided it to me at no cost.  At that time, I rarely got sick, so I just took the risk.

Then I got the flu.  And when I say I got the flu, it felt like all the flu in the whole world jumped up and landed on my sorry ass.  I have NEVER been that sick before.

Flu shots for me every year since. 

Of course, needles no longer bother me the same way.  And frankly, even if they did, you can't even feel the needle for the flu shot.  That never stops me from asking the nurse if she has any candy for me for being a good boy, of course.

[King Postwhore]

RE: the flu shot

There was a time, long ago, before I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes, that I was really casual with my health, and hated needles, and so I just never got the flu shot, even though my employer provided it to me at no cost.  At that time, I rarely got sick, so I just took the risk.

Then I got the flu.  And when I say I got the flu, it felt like all the flu in the whole world jumped up and landed on my sorry ass.  I have NEVER been that sick before.

Flu shots for me every year since. 

Of course, needles no longer bother me the same way.  And frankly, even if they did, you can't even feel the needle for the flu shot.  That never stops me from asking the nurse if she has any candy for me for being a good boy, of course.

I lost my spleen to cancer in 2001.  The doctors told me that I should get the flu shot every year since I have no spleen.  The only year I got deathly ill was in 2004.  The 1 year I did not get my flu shot. I missed the AFC Championship game.  Pats vs. Indy.  So while my buddies were at the game, I had a 104 temp dying on the couch and missed going to the game. 

[lonestar]

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/nocebo-effect-may-cause-majority-of-covid-19-vaccine-symptoms-69617?utm_content=195027872&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-18198832

This is interesting.

Not surprising considering the trials for the vaccines had much less reports of side effects than the general public, some of that can be accounted for with a much larger sample and diversity of people but a lot of it probably is just simply in people's heads.

Also, people in general tend to need something to complain about to give their banal lives color

Lonestar, speaking wise.   

Broken clock is right twice a day....

[emtee]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

[Harmony]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

The entire healthcare system is on the verge of collapsing.  A lot of people don't seem to understand this.  It isn't just Covid anymore.  Covid lit the match but the whole thing is going to burn down and take our most talented providers down with it.

I'm starting to get the same feeling talking to my friends who are teachers.  They are leaving the profession in droves.

Again, I don't think many people are actually getting this.  The situation has moved beyond dire.

I wish there was something I could say to help, emtee.  But I got nothing.  Not even hope that it will turn around at this point.

[XJDenton]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

Can we help in any way?

[emtee]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

Can we help in any way?

From the depth of my soul...thank you. But no, it is what it is. I'm just numb. Tomorrow I do it again. I keep getting up and doing it again. There's no relief.

I'll be ok. Don't feel sorry for me. I could quit but then I add to the burden of my colleagues. So I'll keep going in. Hopefully some day it will be over.

[King Postwhore]

Well thank you so much for what you do. It's appreciated.

[jingle.boy]

to emtee.  In a very non-sexual way, of course.

I heard something the other day, and it (briefly) helped clear my mind .... All pandemics end, and become endemic.  Not a single pandemic in the history of ever stayed a pandemic.  Some rather poignant lyrics here ... and of course, a fantastic video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxgEzVkEjI

"It's a test of ultimate will / the heartbreak climb uphill"

[lonestar]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

I'm so sorry you're having to battle this, yet, for what it is worth, so grateful we have people of your character and strength to battle this

[XJDenton]

Smack dab in the middle of surviving my 4th surge at the hospital. Honestly, I don't even care if I live or die any more. I'm past my mental and physical limit. So over it I can't even put it into words.

Can we help in any way?

From the depth of my soul...thank you. But no, it is what it is. I'm just numb. Tomorrow I do it again. I keep getting up and doing it again. There's no relief.

I'll be ok. Don't feel sorry for me. I could quit but then I add to the burden of my colleagues. So I'll keep going in. Hopefully some day it will be over.

Well if there is anything, let us know. Hell, I'll buy you and your colleagues pizza one night if it offers some relief.

[Cool Chris]

We should totally chip in and send emtee and his team a gift certificate or something.

Getting back to Harmony's post, my wife is a teacher and has seen what the last two years has done to her school and the district. Several teachers at her school retired in the past year, but they were at the point where it was going to happen soon anyway.  It wasn't just Covid, that just sped up their timeline a year or two. Teaching is now about maintaining Covid protocols, equity trainings, overcrowded schools, poorly allocated resources, working with students going through trauma at home or living with unsupportive parents (or parent)...  To say nothing of schools becoming a battleground over CRT, gender issues, and anything else people feel like taking sides over (that was for Stadler).

[Orbert]

I have the utmost respect for teachers, since I used to be one.  I've been a programmer for 25+ years now, but my degree is in education.  Teaching conditions in this country were already shitty enough (which is why I got out), and I can't even imagine having to deal with Covid on top of all that.

[jingle.boy]

My parents were both teachers, and my aunt/uncle as well.  Teaching used to be a respected profession, and one you could build a life/family around.  All four of them retired around the age of 60 with a good amount of savings, and a pension to boot.  I have utmost respect for teachers that are in the profession to educate children.
There's certainly no shortage of people in the profession for less than noble purposes. 

jingle.daughter wants to be a teacher, and is in 4th year of a 6-year Concurrent Education program.  She'll have good job security, but not sure about job quality.  My sense is that conditions are a little better up here than the US, but teachers can be and are vilified quite regularly by certain parent groups, but mostly by the government - especially when it comes to contract negotiation time.

[ReaPsTA]

As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.

- Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full

- Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism

- As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched

- Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"

- It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured

- Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later

- But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning

The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.

Experts are experts for good reason.  Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.

When I think about topics that I have relative expertise in, there is no "expert consensus" of the type that is portrayed to exist around certain scientific topics. Even very fundamental foundations of certain fields are often still hotly debated.

If such an unquestionable scientific consensus actually existed on any topic, to me that would be a sign of groupthink, not that the consensus is accurate. The whole point of science is that it should be questioned.

[Skeever]

Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml

This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.

Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.

[ReaPsTA]

Governor Murphy Signs Executive Order Strengthening COVID-19 Vaccination Requirements for Workers in Health Care and Congregate Settings and Requiring COVID-19 Booster Doses
https://www.nj.gov/health/news/2022/approved/20220119a.shtml

This is great news. A close family member of mine works with the disabled, and many staffers have refused the vaccine. I can't believe how selfish that is, to be working with people who are severely disabled and vulnerable to the pandemic and refusing to help protect them.

Many of the unvaccinated staff are quitting, which is a blessing in disguise, as this person has told me that working around the unvaccinated staff has been so challenging based on how unreliable they've been that they were hoping they would quit anyway.

How is less people working in healthcare going to help with the stress that the system is already experiencing?

[Stadler]

to emtee.  In a very non-sexual way, of course.

Hey, I'm not putting any caveats or limits on it!   I'm kidding of course, but add me to the list of people grateful for people like emtee, with the perseverance and selflessness to keep going for our benefit, not theirs.   

Thinking about you, friend.