Author Topic: Coronavirus Thread v.2  (Read 119506 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 23732
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3255 on: January 19, 2022, 10:04:42 AM »
Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
*smacks*



Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 61912
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3256 on: January 19, 2022, 10:04:52 AM »
My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal

Everyday??

Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?

Yup... But it seems it was a miscommunication. It's once a week, not uncommon for the left hand to be clueless about what the right is doing here. Kind of bummed actually, it'd be nice to get the test daily for free during this wave. Oh well.

My wife's facility uses a test like this, and there seems to be about a 30% false readings. They've had a number of people test positive, only to have them go get a real test and be negative.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Offline lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 23732
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
    • Lady Obscure Music Magazine
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3257 on: January 19, 2022, 10:06:13 AM »
My workplace has started daily testing, nothing like starting the day at 5am shoving a swab up your nostrils. :metal

Everyday??

Are these the results in 15 minutes tests?

Yup... But it seems it was a miscommunication. It's once a week, not uncommon for the left hand to be clueless about what the right is doing here. Kind of bummed actually, it'd be nice to get the test daily for free during this wave. Oh well.

My wife's facility uses a test like this, and there seems to be about a 30% false readings. They've had a number of people test positive, only to have them go get a real test and be negative.

Part of me is afraid of that happening, and the other part of me knows that my company covers any time off due to covid reasons and would happily take the paid week off for a false positive. :lol

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3258 on: January 19, 2022, 10:12:40 AM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

Offline Ben_Jamin

  • Posts: 14580
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm just a man, thrown into existence by the gods
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3259 on: January 19, 2022, 10:20:31 AM »
Here's some articles about Expectations..

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cui-bono/201802/the-psychology-expectations

Quote
My research on moral psychology tells me that expectations among people are often based on an implicit social contract. That is, without actually verbalizing expectations about give-and-take in a relationship, people construct stories in their heads about legitimate expectations of each other. So, people in a relationship have a "deal" in which the specifics of the deal are never really talked about. It is hard for someone to live up to your expectations when they don't know what they are, but you still might see this failure as a violation of your social contract. For example, Mary Schaefer writes about how she listened to a friend's problems for years, even though it was very difficult, because she expected her friend to do the same for her when she wanted to talk about her problems. That did not happen, and the friendship ended...

...It is difficult to locate the exact origin of the slogan, "Expectations are premeditated resentments." However, I do know why that slogan is popular in programs such as Al-Anon. Alcoholics and addicts tend to be so impaired by their substance abuse that they are unlikely to live up to anyone's expectations. Not having expectations for chemically impaired persons is necessary for keeping one's own sanity. But I would say that the same is also true not just for children, who are frequently unresponsive to expectations due to their immaturity and natural rebelliousness, but to all functioning adults as well. This is because each of us, as an adult, has our own desires and agendas. We want to do what we think is in our own best interest. If we expect other people to act in ways that are not consistent with their own interests, they will probably resist our expectations, leaving us resentful. Furthermore, the person is likely to resent you, too (see Jeff Kesselman's comment on resentments). After all, how do you feel when people expect you to do things that are inconsistent with your own goals and values?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-adaptive-mind/201810/live-your-life-you-not-please-expectations

Quote
When you remove your own preconceptions and expectations, you can do the same for others. Living the life you love is liberating—you don’t feel the pressure to please others. Similarly, you won’t need to impose your will on others either.

When you take ownership of your life, other people feel empowered to follow suit.

Expectations are an illusion—they add useless pressure to everyone. Let’s recover the joy of living. Remember when you were a kid. You probably didn’t have time for expectations—you were busy enjoying life one minute at a time.



This is why I am the way I am about this entire situation. The expectations for humans is high, and I know darn well what happens when expectations are high, and my example is Live shows and peoples expectations for bands. (There's plenty of examples of high expectations, and this includes high expectations from the authorities and government).

Because of the expectations and people having vastly different desires and ambitions, it's impossible to expect every human being to abide by these Pandemic Expectations. I understand this and it's a reason I say, What are you doing to protect yourself? Are you getting healthier by exercising and eating more nutritious foods? Are you putting in as much effort for expecting others to abide by the Covid mandates and regulations, into doing what is most beneficial for you?

This is an outcome that's from the cause of humans becoming connected on a world-wide scale, as humans can now see how other humans live on the other side of the planet, and this is where things get fascinating as many expectations of humans and reality get challenged and are perceived differently.
I don't know how they can be so proud of winning with them odds. - Little Big Man

"We can't rewrite history. We can learn our own history, and share it with other people. While, we learn, from them, their history." -Me,Myself,I

Offline XJDenton

  • What a shame
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6312
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3260 on: January 19, 2022, 10:40:03 AM »
Since its "Laughed out Loud" not "Laugh out Louded", it should be shortened to L'dOL.
*smacks*

Some people just aren't ready for the truth.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 61912
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3261 on: January 19, 2022, 10:41:18 AM »
Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.

https://special.usps.com/testkits
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 53827
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3262 on: January 19, 2022, 11:04:48 AM »
Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.

https://special.usps.com/testkits

Yup.  The wife ordered 4 for us. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 24674
  • Gender: Male
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3263 on: January 19, 2022, 11:30:03 AM »
Apparently the USPS is sending out free tests.

https://special.usps.com/testkits

Yup.  The wife ordered 4 for us.

I ordered some just because. It was painless.

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10353
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3264 on: January 19, 2022, 12:12:11 PM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline Grappler

  • Posts: 2739
  • Gender: Male
  • Victory, Illinois Varsity
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3265 on: January 19, 2022, 12:26:20 PM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well

I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short.  Do you want to know why?  It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test.  Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid.  A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it.  If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year.  That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer. 

The covid vaccine clinical trial being short isn't a bad thing, because the data is the same, whether they got to 40,000 patients within a few months or a few years.  The vaccine for the original covid was 90% effective, which is amazing, given that the typical flu vaccine is about half as effective as that.   Mutations like Delta and Omicron have found ways around the vaccine, and while that bums me out, it's not a reason for to say that the vaccine is ineffective. 

I'd imagine that future doses of the covid vaccine may account for those mutations, and we may see better vaccines as time goes on.  At the end of the day, getting a covid shot twice a year isn't a deal-breaker for me, if the experience remains similar to what I had - a few days of feeling out of it and a bit tired, without testing positive.  I can keep working, I don't have to avoid people unless I choose to.  I get a flu shot each fall, simply because I tend to be around a lot of people in an enclosed public train car when I commute to the office.  To me, the flu shot and covid shots are just the same - I'm doing what I can to keep myself from being stuck in bed, sick, for a week, because my family needs me to be healthy.

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3266 on: January 19, 2022, 12:30:11 PM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well

Haven't been tested?

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10353
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3267 on: January 19, 2022, 12:36:30 PM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well

Haven't been tested?

My precision with words is weaker than it once was but I went back and clarified. Not sure what you're getting hung up on.

I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short.  Do you want to know why?  It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test.  Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid.  A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it.  If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year.  That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer. 

In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 31080
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3268 on: January 19, 2022, 12:52:07 PM »
I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short.  Do you want to know why?  It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test.  Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid.  A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it.  If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year.  That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer. 

In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.

But you don't know the long term side effects of getting covid are either.  Nor for the vast majority of things we do on a daily basis.  Some of these "reasons" have been so bogus to me.  The story behind the covid vaccine, specifically Moderna, is actually really interesting and dates back quite some time before covid 19 was a thing.  We've really gone ass backwards in a lot of ways when we lose trust in the great work modern scientists have done. 

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10353
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3269 on: January 19, 2022, 01:11:58 PM »
I'm amazed that people are stuck on the fact that the clinical trial was so short.  Do you want to know why?  It's because they had a MASSIVE pool of subjects to test.  Hundreds of thousands of people around the world had covid.  A typical clinical trial for some other affliction or illness has a lot less individuals afflicted by it.  If you're conducting a clinical trial for a new drug that can treat spinal cord injuries, or a specific type of cancer, you have a lot less people to choose from, maybe a few thousand each year.  That's why those clinical trials take a lot longer. 

In this case the issue isn't the amount of subjects but the fact you can't know long term side effects after ~half a year.

But you don't know the long term side effects of getting covid are either.  Nor for the vast majority of things we do on a daily basis.  Some of these "reasons" have been so bogus to me.  The story behind the covid vaccine, specifically Moderna, is actually really interesting and dates back quite some time before covid 19 was a thing.  We've really gone ass backwards in a lot of ways when we lose trust in the great work modern scientists have done.

While COVID does some goofy shit, in the end it's a respiratory virus. They can have long term effects but usually don't. One of the major problems during COVID we've had is assuming COVID is some wild new thing when it really isn't. The biggest issue here was how hard it was to acknowledge that transmission was seasonal. The South would get hit with a big wave, the media would talk about how bad their COVID policy was. Then the North would get hit and the media would talk about how they need to double down on their containment policies. Reality was they're different parts of the country with different climates and their COVID seasons were at different times of year. I've seen it a lot in this thread and in real life - the default/null hypothesis people seem to have is that COVID is an unknowable and infinitely bad sickness. This isn't supported by anything we know about it.

mRNA technology distributed en mass is a completely new thing that we can't know the long term consequences of until it's actually had a chance to play out. I'm sure the engineering is interesting and has potential, but it's impossible to really know.

I like crypto and PC gaming and building computers and my real life job is still vaguely IT adjacent. Suspicious of technology I am not. But like, I think about the people online who unironically quote tweet an article about homelessness and say "Bitcoin solves this." Like.... the optimism is very tunneled. The mRNA shots might work out, but it's too early to know
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 47763
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3270 on: January 19, 2022, 01:13:44 PM »
As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 31080
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3271 on: January 19, 2022, 01:25:51 PM »
Let's also not forget that not all covid vaccines are MRNa based.

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3272 on: January 19, 2022, 01:26:04 PM »
It's interesting to me how some people bias themselves when it comes to disease vs. shots. The older person I know who won't get the shot is overweight and has had a prior history of pneumonia. Has to get tested daily for their job. Somehow has avoided it the whole time. But it's like, man if you get it you have all the risk factors for a bad outcome. Seems to be better with Omicron (does not attack lungs or fat cells as aggressively), but still man you dodged a bit of a bullet. But ultimately was freaked out by the fact the shots haven't been tested. I respect it but still think the math was wrong.

Haven't been tested?

~Half year long trial that the FDA tried to avoid releasing the data for. I find it sus as well

Haven't been tested?

My precision with words is weaker than it once was but I went back and clarified. Not sure what you're getting hung up on.

It's been tested.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 47763
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3273 on: January 19, 2022, 01:58:03 PM »
Let's also not forget that not all covid vaccines are MRNa based.
That's true.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10353
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3274 on: January 19, 2022, 03:14:49 PM »
As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.

 - Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full

 - Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism

 - As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched

 - Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"

 - It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured

 - Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later

 - But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Offline hunnus2000

  • Posts: 1516
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3275 on: January 19, 2022, 04:56:16 PM »
As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.

 - Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full

 - Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism

 - As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched

 - Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"

 - It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured

 - Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later

 - But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning

So what the eff is your point? You've written nothing............... :tdwn

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3276 on: January 19, 2022, 05:02:31 PM »
In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).

 I don't really know what else to say, people have a right to be scared and it's no surprise that many don't trust authorities. We can agree to that point but at the end of the day going with the authorities is still a more certain shot than trusting relying on laypeople to triangular the information themselves or worse yet listening to one of those dark web podcasters.

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 53827
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3277 on: January 19, 2022, 05:12:14 PM »
Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline ReaPsTA

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10353
  • Gender: Male
  • Addicted to the pain
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3278 on: January 19, 2022, 05:20:10 PM »
In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).

If I think something is certain/likely to be true I saw it with certainty if I think there's ambiguity I try to balance the different viewpoints you can look at it from.

I don't understand the criticism here.
Take a chance you may die
Over and over again

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3279 on: January 19, 2022, 05:30:34 PM »
In the past page or so we've seen absolute statements (the mask doesn't work, the vaccine doesn't stop transmission, there was no testing, etc) supplanted with the typical waffling relativism (ah, no one can ever know much for sure, bad things have happened in the past...).

If I think something is certain/likely to be true I saw it with certainty if I think there's ambiguity I try to balance the different viewpoints you can look at it from.

I don't understand the criticism here.

Almost everything you've said on the last couple pages with regards to masking and vaccines is false if you can trust the CDC/NHS/WHO etc.  We are not really talking about who has the better understanding of the virus as that's not possible. We're talking about who is able to trust the authorities and who isn't. And I earnestly mean it when I say I don't blame you, I also just don't buy that you got anything better.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 31080
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3280 on: January 19, 2022, 05:51:32 PM »
Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.

I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.

People fear covid and people fear big government.  That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 53827
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3281 on: January 19, 2022, 06:18:00 PM »
People who trust the internet over doctors should look inward.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Online TAC

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 61912
  • Gender: Male
  • Arthritic Metal Horns
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3282 on: January 19, 2022, 06:19:46 PM »
Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums................or WTF.  ;D
You know that a mark of a great song is if TAC hates it with a special passion.

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 53827
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3283 on: January 19, 2022, 06:36:09 PM »
Exactly. The internet tells me Power Windows is good.

My ears tell me that Tommy Chong.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Online Skeever

  • Posts: 2292
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3284 on: January 19, 2022, 07:31:15 PM »
Seems though most are not afraid but beliefs are what drive them.  A little blue pill is ok, damn the side affect but this vaccine?  Nope.

I think fear is actually driving a lot of this, on both sides of the coin. Likely amplified by media.

People fear covid and people fear big government.  That gives people on both sides some ammo for their beliefs. And yet, the data shows both sides of the fear to be out of touch with reality.

And this makes sense, but also, this is worldwide. I get many people don't have a very broad view of the world, but even if you decided that the CDC, Big Pharma and Fauci were so corrupt and inept that you couldn't trust them, wouldn't you take solace in the fact that nations around the world have come to basically the same conclusions regarding the general approach completely independent of paying any mind to which social club of the American aristocracy US political party are currently saying what as they drunkenly parade around on the deck.

Online kingshmegland

  • Couch Potato
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 53827
  • Gender: Male
  • Take that Beethoven, you deaf bastard!!
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3285 on: January 19, 2022, 07:34:48 PM »
I trust the medical community more than some internet whack who thinks his or her body is a temple.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 47763
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3286 on: January 20, 2022, 07:45:32 AM »
As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.

 - Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full

 - Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism

 - As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched

 - Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"

 - It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured

 - Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later

 - But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.

Experts are experts for good reason.  Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline millahh

  • Retired Pedantic Bastard
  • Moderator Emeritus
  • *****
  • Posts: 3778
  • Gender: Male
  • RIP Mark
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3287 on: January 20, 2022, 08:31:06 AM »
As I understand it, a lot of the work on these vaccines was done before the pandemic even hit, because of the similarity to previous viruses and the work done on those vaccines.

Also, there simply are no long-term side effects to vaccines, as a rule.  Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine (1960s), any side effects make themselves known within six to eight weeks. 

Also, the study of mRNA vaccines has been going on for decades.  These vaccines are not mysteries, they are very well known and well researched.


No long-term side effects.  That's not a thing.  It's a straw man scare tactic propagated by people who are already against the vaccine.

 - Research on this technology has existed for decades, but the technology to make it actually work has only gotten to a state where it's practical over the last ~10 years. This article shows the progression of the delivery methods and approvals for them having changed and updated even up to 2019 - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41578-021-00358-0 . This article (made in 2019) also notes a couple times that extensive human trials had not been performed - https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2019.00594/full

 - Saying there are no long-term effects of vaccines, in a historical sense, has no bearing here. Focusing on the mRNA vaccines specifically, while the technology has existed for decades, the COVID shots are the first mass released mRNA product. They are a new technology, not a crippled version of a virus or some other stand-in organism

 - As the technology is new, based on recent developments, and has not had extensive long-term testing, they cannot be characterized as well-known and well-researched

 - Think of how often unknown side-effects and causes are found. Asbestos, BPAs, Monsanto products causing cancer. Look at the FDA going back and re-evaluating if chemical sunscreen products, which definitely shouldn't be causing cancer, might in fact be causing cancer. The new major Java code bug has lurked for almost 10 years without being discovered. Whenever some horrible long-term or hidden effect in something is found, the story is necessarily that "well we tested it thoroughly and thought it was safe!"

 - It is literally impossible to know if long term side-effects are "not a thing" because it is impossible for the long-term side-effects to have been tested and measured

 - Do I think there are long-term side-effects? Not exactly. If you get a long-term side effect like bells palsy, that should show up quickly. My understanding is that the various components of the shot flush out of your body in about a week. It does not make sense that something that leaves your body in a week can lurk and mysteriously come up later

 - But again, when these unexpected problems come up, they are... unexpected. I know not why caution/concern about this should be characterized as a fake argument produced by motivated reasoning
The general consensus among the worldwide medical community, who knows more than you or I do, is that the vaccines are safe.

Experts are experts for good reason.  Especially when there is a general worldwide consensus among those experts.

I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory.  I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.

But hey. credentialism is worse than covid, right?
Quote from: parallax
WHEN WILL YOU ADRESS MY MONKEY ARGUMENT???? NEVER???? THAT\' WHAT I FIGURED.:lol

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 47763
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3288 on: January 20, 2022, 08:32:37 AM »
I lack the energy to write out a whole thing that I'm sure would fall on deaf ears, but I work in developing genetic medicines that are highly similar to the mRNA vaccine. I understand the manufacturing, the physiology, and the regulatory.  I am HIGHLY confident that they are safe and there are no long-term side effects, based on the mechanism by which they work.

But hey. credentialism is worse than covid, right?
:tup
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Harmony

  • Posts: 2292
  • Gender: Female
Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3289 on: January 20, 2022, 08:34:55 AM »
This line of skepticism is similar to the climate change deniers.  The vast majority of world scientists tells us one thing.  But Joe Keyboard has all the real right answers so we should listen to him. 
You cannot be for government mandated pregnancy AND personal freedom at the same time