Coronavirus Thread v.2

[jingle.boy]

At what point does the line exist whereby "well, guess we better take action" is the response.  10k?  100k?  As was (supposedly) learned in previous waves, the longer the decision to act, the more severe the actions need to be.

IMO, it's not a set number but when hospitals reach the tipping point of being overwhelmed. 

Totally fair ... if not for the fact that if you wait until they're actually overwhelmed, you've seriously fucked yourself.  Decisions need to be made weeks ahead of the "tipping point".

IMO, (and I'll acknowledge it's a bit of a regional issue too), areas of the the US are likely only a few weeks (maybe a month) behind where ON and QB are right now.  Also, I've said this a few times already, so I'm not sure why it doesn't seem to be sinking in - Omicron is infecting MORE (double) vaccinated individuals than unvaccinated.  Granted, at an individual level, vax'd people are not at a significant health risk ... I get it.  But with wider and wider spread, the virus will find the vulnerable groups.  The (current) exponential growth of the virus will trump any benefit of being "weaker" than Delta just by sheer numbers.  I think that's why strong actions are being taken now - to try and slow it while we get boosters in arms.  The good thing the US has going for itself is that the booster program started a few months back, where ours just really started about 3 weeks ago. 

Also the numbers still show that the people with severe illness are still mostly unvaccinated.  Can't save those who choose to not be saved.

True, but it's not JUST about the unvax'd.  Another issue is the impact on infected health care professionals - even vax'd that might only be experiencing minor symptoms - they've got to isolate for the protection of patients ("Data released by NHS England show that on December 12 there were 12,240 personnel absent for coronavirus-related reasons").  THAT is also going to devastate healthcare.  There are 2nd and 3rd degrees of implications to society - it's not just about an individual getting a head cold.

[ProfessorPeart]

Another side effect here is the exodus of teachers and healthcare workers from the workforce. Teachers are being bullied beyond belief and are just quitting their jobs. Healthcare workers are getting burned out and leaving (and sometimes getting bullied over the 'fake virus').

I think in the long run, those 2 things will be some of the biggest takeaways. Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?

[XeRocks81]

The good thing the US has going for itself is that the booster program started a few months back, where ours just really started about 3 weeks ago.

yeah that is what's bothering me the most a the moment, that I still can't get a 3rd dose appointment and propably won't be able to for at least a few more weeks.

[Cool Chris]

Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?

Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.

[Zoom E]

My family has had to scale back our plans for a Christmas gathering. We are no longer getting together with my aunt and cousin and their families. New restrictions here in BC limit gatherings to a household plus 10 people, so we would have been well over that.

More significantly one of my cousins and his family are not vaccinated, and we don’t want to risk them being around my dad, who has lung issues and is inexplicably on the fence about getting his booster.

[ProfessorPeart]

Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?

Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.

Oh, I know. It's just that this situation seems to be the tipping point for many that are quitting or retiring early. That video I saw this week or last of some 'promotion' where they had teachers fighting over dollar bills for supplies is really appalling and sadly quite telling of the inherent problems in our system.

[lonestar]

Our public school system already kinda sucks, now you run the best teachers out of their job over masks and whatnot, who suffers?

Speaking as someone who married in to the business, masks are about 17th on the list of reasons teachers are burning out and quitting.

Oh, I know. It's just that this situation seems to be the tipping point for many that are quitting or retiring early. That video I saw this week or last of some 'promotion' where they had teachers fighting over dollar bills for supplies is really appalling and sadly quite telling of the inherent problems in our system.

Just searched that and now I'm fucking seething with anger.

[ReaPsTA]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

[Melphina]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

+1... some people's livelihoods ARE working in the live music industry, fitness world, and food industry. Those people WANT people to come support their line of work and art. Of course, this point has already been beaten to death in this thread. I don't see anybody's views changing after this long

[axeman90210]

Popping in for a random question: do you guys know if the rapid test results are independent? My sister is stuck in NYC right now because she was visiting friends and then one of them became symptomatic and tested positive (they were all vaccinated + booster). Given that she's just now in the window where a test is worthwhile, we don't think she'll get results from a PCR test in time for Christmas. If she's able to test negative on daily rapid tests though, should that give us more comfort? Or if she's got it and gets a false negative one day is she more likely to continue getting false negatives?

[TAC]

I think the chances of consecutive false negatives OR a false positives is unlikely. If she tests negative and is asymptomatic, then yes, I'd take comfort. If she takes a second quick test and that's also negative, I assume she's negative.

[jingle.boy]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

[DragonAttack]

Trivial?...we were going to see the Capitals in DC for whatever game in January, but our hotel discount did not apply.  So, we were going to see my Red Wings up in Philly in a month.

Wife fell and broke her wrist, and....covid numbers are sky rocketing.  We are both 'boosted', but, screw it.  We cancelled our tickets today, got a refund for the game and the hotel.

This is all so disheartening........sigh............

[ReaPsTA]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.

[jingle.boy]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.

Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead.  I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people.  Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.

Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have  experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood.  I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good.  But that's not how our society operates.  Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.

As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position.  But we reap(sta  ) what we sow.

[Stadler]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.

Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead.  I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people.  Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.

Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have  experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood.  I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good.  But that's not how our society operates.  Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.

As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position.  But we reap(sta  ) what we sow.

This post is a winner.  Not because I agree with it (though I nominally do) but because it SO beautifully highlights the problem here.  PERSONALLY.   YOU.   Some people DON'T value the "temporary" pauses.  I can honestly say, with no hyperbole, that sometimes "temporary" isn't that temporary (I got divorced, and I took what I thought was a "temporary" hit to my finances, and it took me goddamn seven years to get back to even ballpark where I was).   Going back further, I lost my job in 2010, and it LITERALLY changed my life.   We can't keep cavalierly making value judgments - based on our own thought patterns - that have potentially DEEP impacts for other people.  I worked out of my house pre-COVID, so for me, the shutdowns, the masks, the restrictions... easy peasy.  I'm in my fucking basement by myself anyway, so the only thing I REALLY gave up are bars/restaurants (and only the experience; thanks DoorDash!) and concerts.  No big.   My college friend, who didn't have two quarters to rub together most of his life, FINALLY got his shit together with a great job doing teambuilding exercises... and between revenue hits and distancing issues, COVID all but killed his business.  But for the grace of a few close friends, an understanding girlfriend (now wife) and a daughter who's a rising star in the corporate world, he'd be homeless (again).   For him, BIG.   

[WilliamMunny]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.

Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead.  I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people.  Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.

Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have  experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood.  I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good.  But that's not how our society operates.  Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.

As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position.  But we reap(sta  ) what we sow.

For me, this post is a winner as well, mostly due to the fact that I agree with every single word

[cramx3]

When we did do a temporary pause of public business in 2020 the end result was a significant amount of people losing their jobs and small businesses going under.  I think we all can name a few of our local establishments that are no longer around due to the shutdowns of the pandemic.  If you think the government's got our backs to keep everyone afloat while we force a shut down, you've got a lot more faith in the system than I do. (and granted, this could be different for other locations).  The reality so far, even with NJ hitting record highs of cases, omicron is just showing to not be a deadly disease like the variants before.  The risk profile is still fairly low and the way this is running through our country like wildfire makes me think a short pause won't change a single thing.

Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined.  My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment.  Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive.  He has a runny nose. 

[Melphina]

When we did do a temporary pause of public business in 2020 the end result was a significant amount of people losing their jobs and small businesses going under.  I think we all can name a few of our local establishments that are no longer around due to the shutdowns of the pandemic.  If you think the government's got our backs to keep everyone afloat while we force a shut down, you've got a lot more faith in the system than I do. (and granted, this could be different for other locations).  The reality so far, even with NJ hitting record highs of cases, omicron is just showing to not be a deadly disease like the variants before.  The risk profile is still fairly low and the way this is running through our country like wildfire makes me think a short pause won't change a single thing.

Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined.  My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment.  Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive.  He has a runny nose.

It definitely won't, and people gotta eat, and people gotta get a move on with their lives. I've got a NYE concert in Cambridge MA that I can't wait to attend.

[Stadler]

Sorry, Marc; I hope you can salvage what you can for the holidays.   We're probably keeping it low-key this year.  We'll have a small get-together at my mother-in-law's house Xmas eve, and honestly, we might actually do NOTHING on Xmas day.  It's been a hard three/four weeks for us on all fronts, and while most of it turned out for the good, we're just flat out EXHAUSTED.   

[ReaperKK]

Having said all that, my Christmas is officially ruined.  My parents decided not to come up to NJ because my mom's health hasn't been the greatest and NJ is worse off than FL is at the moment.  Turns out they made the right last minute decision, my brother in law where my parents would have been staying and where they would have hosted, tested positive.  He has a runny nose. 

That sucks Cram I'm sorry to hear the plans fell apart.

[cramx3]

I got back yesterday from Europe and am quite tired and have little desire to do much anyway so if Christmas is cancelled for me, it won't be the worst thing.  I could use the next few days to get things done around the house and put my head back to a stable position. Just the drama from the family is a bit more exhausting than people getting sick.

It definitely won't, and people gotta eat, and people gotta get a move on with their lives. I've got a NYE concert in Cambridge MA that I can't wait to attend.

I also have a concert on the 27th I'd like to go to.  As of now, it's still on and if it happens, I plan on going.  If I get covid, so be it.  Vaccines are required to enter.  I recently tested negative and feel fine, I don't see why I shouldn't be able to go as long as it happens.

[bosk1]

Our society is so fucking privileged and entitled - valuing concerts, gyms, restaurants etc...  over the health, life, and livelihood of all.

Why do you think the two groups of three you mentioned are different?

I don't think I'm following the question.  I'm happy to clarify my point if I can better understand what it is I'm not communicating clearly.

If people aren't going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants, doesn't that devalue their health, life, and livelihood? Someone can be technically alive but spiritually dead.

Fair... but if you're dead, you're dead-dead.  I'd also question how spiritually alive someone is in the hospital, or ICU, including the close friends and families of those people.  Personally, I think a the benefits of temporary or short-lived 'pauses' or restrictions on certain discretionary aspects to society outweigh the detriments.

Look, I get that these are unfair and inaccurate comparisons, but current/past generations that have  experienced (or are living with) great sickness, oppression, and/or conflict know what it's like to have to REALLY sacrifice and risk or lose their health, life, and livelihood.  I think as a society, it shouldn't be much to ask to temporarily sacrifice certain things for the greater good.  But that's not how our society operates.  Me-me-me, and instantaneous gratification is what we've been wired for.

As I said, I'm not trying (or going) to change anyone's position.  But we reap(sta  ) what we sow.

This argument simply raises a false equivalency.  "Me [going to concerts, gyms, and restaurants vs. the health, life, livelihood of others" does not in any way accurately frame the issue at all.  Not even close.  Nobody is telling you that you (or anyone else) cannot behave in a manner that is overly cautious.  Please, please, PLEASE do you and be as cautious as you need to be to protect yourself and yours in the manner you deem most appropriate.  I have respect for anyone who does so, even if I disagree with your personal risk assessment.  But irrational overreactions that misstate the minimal risk factors don't help anyone or anything (as I think Reap was trying to point out). 

[Luoto]

Data from the UK and Denmark is starting to support early findings in South Africa: omicron is currently resulting in a relatively smaller amount of severe cases and shorter treatment times than previous strains. This is hopefully a step towards SARS-CoV-2 becoming endemic.

[jingle.boy]

Please, please, PLEASE do you and be as cautious as you need to be to protect yourself and yours in the manner you deem most appropriate.  I have respect for anyone who does so, even if I disagree with your personal risk assessment.  But irrational overreactions that misstate the minimal risk factors don't help anyone or anything (as I think Reap was trying to point out).

The whole "you do you" and "tend to your garden" responses are really grating on me (not a shot at you Bill... just using your verbiage - which you haven't specifically said in a while).  I'd LOVE to just "do me", but I can't - A) because of a global pandemic, and B) because others aren't taking the necessary precautions to allow ALL of society to do them.  I can't go to hockey games across the border; jingle.son can't go to college for a fourth consecutive semester; jingle.daughter can't see her friends, or progress her education career with an in-person placements; we won't be seeing jingle.mil because one of her other grand-children tested positive because his girlfriend wasn't following guidelines.  I haven't had a f2f work meeting in just about 2 years - was about to plan one for the end of Jan, but that's kibosh'd now.

So let's dispense with the 'you do you' bullshit.  I *am* living life to my risk tolerance, and still getting fucked over for it.  I'm trying to do MY part so that *all* of society can "do you".  IMO, the whole "you do you" thing is just a cute way of justifying (some level of) selfishness.

[Melphina]

Yet you're judging people who aren't doing the same things you are and you're judging people who go to concerts... I didn't go to a concert for a year and a half. No wait - two years. Now I've been doing it for months with no issues. Just my two cents... Do your thing and assess things as you see fit, but people who aren't doing the same thing aren't beneath you. Dismissing "you do you" as bullshit is, well... dismissive.

[bosk1]

The whole "you do you" and "tend to your garden" responses are really grating on me

Good.  It should grate on anyone who doesn't get that the argument you are making is complete nonsense. 

I'd LOVE to just "do me", but I can't - A) because of a global pandemic, and B) because others aren't taking the necessary precautions to allow ALL of society to do them.  I can't go to hockey games across the border; jingle.son can't go to college for a fourth consecutive semester; jingle.daughter can't see her friends, or progress her education career with an in-person placements; we won't be seeing jingle.mil because one of her other grand-children tested positive because his girlfriend wasn't following guidelines.  I haven't had a f2f work meeting in just about 2 years - was about to plan one for the end of Jan, but that's kibosh'd now.

And all of that unequivocally sucks.  But, it has zero to do with anyone's individual choice to go to concerns, restaurants, the gym, etc.  Yeah, there was a global pandemic.  As cold as it may sound, file that under "stuff happens."  Nobody's individual choices to not live under a rock are causing that.  The virus is.  The need to find blame in others for choosing differently than you is perhaps understandable as a kneejerk reaction out of frustration, but is ultimately a selfish, immature attitude. 

[jingle.boy]

Yeah, there was a global pandemic.

"WAS" a global pandemic?  That one line alone sums it up - those that have dismissed the pandemic as over to suit your (royal, not you specifically Bosk) own situation seems like an arrogant attitude to me.

I sincerely hope you (US) guys don't get hammered with this version of the virus the way we are getting it.  Hopefully it's a "much ado about nothing" low risk to health that everyone seems to want to be convinced that it is, but it's too new to really know.  Carry on though ... dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.

[MoraWintersoul]

dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.

Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.

I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?

[Skeever]

dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.

Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.

I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?

What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?

[cramx3]

From NYT:

Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.

When talking about the benefits of restrictions, we should not forget the negatives.  As someone who spent most of 2020 in a depressed state, I can relate.

[TAC]

Fatalism is a strong word.

And we simply don't have a blank checkbook of

Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.

We cannot continue to kick these down the road. A life lost to these is no less important...

[jingle.boy]

dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.

Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.

I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?

What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?

I really struggle with the "it didn't work" mentality.  How much worse would it have been if there weren't the kinds of lockdowns that were put in place.  Let's compare Australia with the US.  The former came down hard, and nearly eradicated it - but at least contained it enough to carry on with life.  The latter ... not so much.

What am I proposing ... That we don't need to fill movie theatres, and arenas (sports or concerts) or have a packed Times Square on New Year's Eve.  Or that it's ok for recreation leagues pause their schedules, or that spin classes need not be filled with steamy panting people inhaling and exhaling 80 times per minute.  Or that school systems mandate COVID vaccines the same way they mandate MMR, tetanus, diptheria, polio, and chicken pox.  Or that masks be worn by all in indoor facilities where distancing cannot maintained.  Or that any business where patrons congregate for extended periods of time have restrictions on capacities - because it's unfair to expect business owners to police masking and distancing requirements.

Ya know... stuff that is going to slow the spread of the very virus we humans who (once infected) are spreading and catching through every breath that we take.

When talking about the benefits of restrictions, we should not forget the negatives.  As someone who spent most of 2020 in a depressed state, I can relate.

My heart breaks for you Marc, it truly does (check your FB IMs).  I hope no one ever says to you "stuff happens", because all of this is totally unfair to all of us.  It really is.  Yes, there are costs and negatives to restrictions ... some very significant ones.  I'm just of the mindset that the costs of NOT doing them are even more severe - not to everyone obviously, but they are severe enough to a significant enough number of people that I will grudgingly do my part to get society through this.

I guess I look at my actions in this like I do voting.  Do my individual actions (vote) actually make a meaningful difference?  Probably not.  But EVERYONES actions (votes) does.  So I'll do my part.

@ Tim's post.  I agree.  In a time where we have many diametrically opposed issues (ie, it's impossible to solve both/multiple at the same time), which do you chose / which do you sacrifice?  It's almost like medical triage... ABC - Airway, Breathing, Circulation.  What are the ABC's of society?

I wish I knew.

[Skeever]

dismiss the warning signs as has been done all throughout the (still going) global pandemic.

Count me in as disappointed too: we've been ignoring all negative signs for as long as the pandemic lasted, but now people want to jump at the first positive one.

I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?

What restrictions? We have already had restrictions, and still have many of them. What we did in March 2020 didn't work. So what are you all proposing?

I really struggle with the "it didn't work" mentality.  How much worse would it have been if there weren't the kinds of lockdowns that were put in place.  Let's compare Australia with the US.  The former came down hard, and nearly eradicated it - but at least contained it enough to carry on with life.  The latter ... not so much.

What am I proposing ... That we don't need to fill movie theatres, and arenas (sports or concerts) or have a packed Times Square on New Year's Eve.  Or that it's ok for recreation leagues pause their schedules, or that spin classes need not be filled with steamy panting people inhaling and exhaling 80 times per minute.  Or that school systems mandate COVID vaccines the same way they mandate MMR, tetanus, diptheria, polio, and chicken pox.  Or that masks be worn by all in indoor facilities where distancing cannot maintained.  Or that any business where patrons congregate for extended periods of time have restrictions on capacities - because it's unfair to expect business owners to police masking and distancing requirements.

Ya know... stuff that is going to slow the spread of the very virus we humans who (once infected) are spreading and catching through every breath that we take.

First off, I agree about vaccine mandates in schools. But that's not a restriction, in my mind. I would consider that a requirement. So leaving that alone, I think there are ways to do most if not all of these things safely. We have, staying home if your sick, temperature checks, distancing, masks, testing, vaccines. Of course people are imperfect, and will always make mistakes. But there are ways to go out and live life, exercise, see live music, and meet with people face to face that are reasonably risk free even right now. Of course nothing is ever totally risk free. What, if anything, really is?

Piling on restrictions won't help - people will just refuse to comply, and more extreme the restrictions, the more they will become a farce to the public who do not want to abide by them. There's also the question of whether more restrictions are really worth the trade-off - if we want the gym closed down for the duration of the pandemic, what kind of health crisis do we have on our hands after that? Let alone physical, what about mental? Not everyone can afford to live in a nice house with a home gym.

[ReaPsTA]

And we simply don't have a blank checkbook of

Some of the country’s new Covid acceptance — or fatalism — stems from frustration with the costs of pandemic precautions: the loss of learning from closed schools; the isolation from social distancing; the nationwide rise in blood pressure, drug overdoses, mental health problems and more.

We cannot continue to kick these down the road. A life lost to these is no less important...

Indeed.

It's not only about the death counter. For every person we save from dying of COVID, how many people are we okay with putting on food stamps? How many childrens' educations are we okay with destroying? How many people are we okay with giving psychological disorders? When have we ever not judged a society by the quality of life it provides to its citizens?

I get it. I am sick and tired too. I want to move on with life now that I'm double vaxd and my risk assessment says a) I am literally bound to catch it at work b) nothing particularly bad is going to happen to me or my double vaxd husband, my only social contact right now other than work. The timing, with the holidays, is particularly nasty to be introducing new restrictions or imposing them upon yourself. But is it that difficult to avoid proclaiming we shouldn't have any further restrictions until we actually have some solid answers?

I think this framing is backward. Why would you impose sacrifices on yourself until it was sufficiently proven to you that it was necessary? Why would you want your society or government to impose massive sacrifices without taking the time to weigh the costs against the benefits?

In March 2020, due to the confused information we had at the time, we were looking at 3-10% of the world's population dying slowly and painfully. For the sake of argument we can say that you have to act decisively in the face of that kind of risk.

But, as we've learned more about COVID, and as the variants have gotten less lethal, most of the developed world's governments still treat COVID mitigation as their chief social concern. What evidence supports this? The best reason I've seen is concern about overflowing the healthcare system. But even if the average person has some duty to prevent this, wouldn't it be easier and cheaper to just write checks to build more capacity?

I don't want to make a bullheadedly American libertarian argument. If we were talking about airborne smallpox my opinion might be very different. I've been wrong about things before and people have different values than I do. But with almost all the news about Omicron points to it being a mild disease even to those at the most risk (has a single death even been reported?). I don't know what we're even talking about anymore.