Coronavirus Thread v.2

[TAC]

I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate.  On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it.  Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know.  It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.

It's such a tough decision.   I'm with you.  I'm torn.

[KevShmev]

I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate.  On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it.  Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know.  It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.

It's such a tough decision.   I'm with you.  I'm torn.

[TAC]

I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate.  On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it.  Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know.  It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.

It's such a tough decision.   I'm with you.  I'm torn.

[King Postwhore]

You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.

[TAC]

You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.

This is how I feel.

[King Postwhore]

You don't want to see me lying naked on the floor.

This is how I feel.

I can't tell you how thrilled I am that you got this.

[TAC]

I love that song!

[KevShmev]

[King Postwhore]

Better than down.

[hunnus2000]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

[Ben_Jamin]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

Oh deep down I do have a problem with it....It's the same issue I have with insurance, which leads me to believe Insurance is bullshit.

[lonestar]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

There is a segment of antivaxxers who are against the initial vitamin K shot given at birth that helps blood clotting until the newborn can produce its own. I always felt it's an end product of shitty scientific education in our public schools

[KevShmev]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

[Ben_Jamin]

Here's a great video about...

the Psychology of Conformity

This might help those whom just can't seem to understand how people are vastly different to where they do not think or feel the same as you.


And another on...

 Why an Obsession With Safety creates Sick Minds and a Sick Society

[hunnus2000]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

OK - take out the "Merican" statement and continue to answer the question.

[bosk1]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

[hunnus2000]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

[Ben_Jamin]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

One answer I could give you that could be possible is...

People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?

Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.

Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.


These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?

[hunnus2000]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

One answer I could give you that could be possible is...

People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?

Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.

Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.


These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?

Thanks for your response Ben!

Bodily autonomy is an interesting use of words when we mandate the use of other vaccines such as polio, chickenpox and hepatitis. And we mandate these for our kids!   

I'm with you about your right to privacy from the government but they have already taken that away from you.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

One answer I could give you that could be possible is...

People have different thresholds, how far is one willing to play along? How far is one willing to take all the lashes? How far is one willing to just deal with it?

Drivers Licenses: Here in New Mexico we have what you call two forms of ID's because we are refugee state. This caused such a burden on the citizens already living here as we are now required to have this RealID in order to fly, and visit Federal Buildings. Doesn't help matters that our Motor Vehicle Department isn't quite adept and doesn't actually function well. People barely tolerate that enough as it is.

Marriage License: This is recognized by the State and is meant for legal purposes such as Taxes. Otherwise this is done by the religion that performs the marriage ceremony. In this case, it's done by a judge. When you get married in the catholic church, you sign two documents one to have your marriage recognized by the state, and the other that recognizes the marriage by the church.


These do not infringe on a persons freedom of choice as much as a mandated medical product does. A mandated medical product infringes on a persons right to privacy, as it stands, we're on that thin line of deciding whether the government has a right to determine whether your Bodily Autonomy is considered a "Privacy Right". What gives the government the right to determine what you should, and how you should treat your body? What gives the authority the right to determine and define what is considered healthy and a threat for the sanctity of the "Public Health"?

Thanks for your response Ben!

Bodily autonomy is an interesting use of words when we mandate the use of other vaccines such as polio, chickenpox and hepatitis. And we mandate these for our kids!   

I'm with you about your right to privacy from the government but they have already taken that away from you.

Right to Privacy and Bodily Autonomy means that no one person can force, and shouldn't really be coercing, you into doing things to your body against your will. That's very different from voluntarily giving that one person permission for them too do it, which is the consent we give our doctors and those medical professionals when we agree to trust their knowledge and expertise. It's the consent form each person signed when they got their vaccinations, stating you are voluntarily allowing the person to administer the vaccine into your body and they will not be held liable for any side effects.

This is why Medical Malpractice should be a really hefty penalty for the consequences involved. Because Dr. Nick Riviera should be held accountable for his negligent and ignorant knowledge of Medicine and lack of expertise in the medical field. Unless they're a psychopathic doctor like Dr. John Story...

Found this article fascinating...

https://medium.com/inside-of-elle-beau/body-autonomy-is-protected-by-the-constitution-ede4fb256ebb

[bosk1]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

Your prediction is correct--I cannot.  But that is because, as Hef noted before me and I echoed, the question assumes something that is false.

And, no, it's not about you.  It's about calling out behavior that is unnecessarily confrontational and childish, which yours has been in this thread.  Four other people have gotten warnings for similar behavior in the last few days, so if you think you are being singled out, you are mistaken and could benefit from dropping the persecution complex and doing some self-examination.

[hunnus2000]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

Your prediction is correct--I cannot.  But that is because, as Hef noted before me and I echoed, the question assumes something that is false.

And, no, it's not about you.  It's about calling out behavior that is unnecessarily confrontational and childish, which yours has been in this thread.  Four other people have gotten warnings for similar behavior in the last few days, so if you think you are being singled out, you are mistaken and could benefit from dropping the persecution complex and doing some self-examination.

You guys respond to my post in a snarky manner and yet I'm the one being called out as childish? Sorry, no need for self-reflection on my part.

But back to my question, what is that "assumes something that is false"?

[Stadler]

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake

I kinda agree.  I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.



However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.

Who's paying for all this testing though?  Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government? 

This is a good question.  If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.

I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold.  First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people.  We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME.  So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services.  Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated".  IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.

We CREDENTIAL all the time, but - and yes, Chad, I know you're not exactly saying this - we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time.   Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats?   Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants.   Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we?   I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds.  It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard. 

Though I am fully in agreement with you on your second point; if there is a way out so that it truly is a choice, then I'm all for it (that's largely the structure for administered vaccines already). 

[Stadler]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:

I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.

The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you.  I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated.  I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about.  Or that our policy should address.  Or that the law should be subordinate to.   A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).

Don't twist it - my feelings are based on pretty realistic views on the pandemic and what it is doing to people around the world, as well as substantial evidence that vaccines are an immediate and effective answer.  I don't see the law as subordinating to feelings here, whether they're mine or anyone elses. Taking it a step further, I'm not sure I agree that the law is being subordinated at all.

I'm not intending to twist anything: I was agreeing with your simple statement that I would feel better if people around me were vaccinated.  The rest was just my explanation of where I prioritized MY feelings, no one else's.

Not that I would necessarily care if it the law was, in fact, being subordinated.

Unfortunately, though, we don't get to pick and choose what laws we follow and what laws we ignore.  That's what laws are: the one (legal) way that others can force you to act.

[Ben_Jamin]

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake

I kinda agree.  I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.



However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.

Who's paying for all this testing though?  Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government? 

This is a good question.  If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.

I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold.  First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people.  We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME.  So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services.  Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated".  IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.

We CREDENTIAL all the time, but - and yes, Chad, I know you're not exactly saying this - we don't (necessarily) force people to change their body chemistry all the time.   Hey, since we're at it, maybe we should make people eat the proper ratio of carbs/protein/fats?   Maybe we should force people to take anti-depressants.   Sterilization is a fantastic idea; don't want those deplorables to be breeding now, do we?   I'm kidding, but see there ARE differences in this, and minimizing those differences does nothing to change minds.  It just reinforces the anti-vaxxer's feelings of not being heard. 

Though I am fully in agreement with you on your second point; if there is a way out so that it truly is a choice, then I'm all for it (that's largely the structure for administered vaccines already).

And then those choices will end up being "the lesser of two evils" choice like how this past election was. You can either have the Trump or The Biden....it's one reason I really wish I could see an alternate outcome to see if the shoe would've been the same, just worn on the other foot.

[Stadler]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

There are two questions in that post:  Yes, I can answer this.  Zero.  It is zero effed up.   And I've already explained why numerous times.  I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one.  I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not.   I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not.   There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination).   And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.

For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof.  That's a driver's license.   That's a marriage license.  Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm.  Period.

[Stadler]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

I did.   Multiple times.  I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer.  Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.

And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican".  I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting.  (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).

[Ben_Jamin]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

I did.   Multiple times.  I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer.  Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.

And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican".  I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting.  (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).

It's hilarious because that's the generalization term for an American. Your dumb, hillbilly, southern accent, watches NASCAR and eats nothing but Fast Food...'Murican.

When I hear that term that's what I picture....

Reminds me of how when people think of an "Indian" they see us in teepees, pow-wows, just in g-string, smoking tobacco and making smoke signals. 

[hunnus2000]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

There are two questions in that post:  Yes, I can answer this.  Zero.  It is zero effed up.   And I've already explained why numerous times.  I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one.  I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not.   I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not.   There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination).   And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.

For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof.  That's a driver's license.   That's a marriage license.  Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm.  Period.

My bigger point was the irony of how people act with laws and mandates and not thinking twice about vs. how they lose their shit regarding this vaccine. Most people (I will include myself) don't think about certain things to the level you do.

I will say it again, I m not wanting to round people up and jab them but I am all for restricting their rights. We do this ALL THE TIME!

[lonestar]

I see where you're digging at, and yes the current vaccine has pressed some magical butthurt button across our society. The only thing I think, personal opinion here folks....is that it shows how glaringly privelaged the US is across the board. We have so little suffering that occurs on the regular in other places that we have to manufacture it, and for some reason, the covid vax has clicked all the right boxes at just the right time even though the overwhelming scientific evidence states that it's safe, effective, and the easiest way out of the pandemic.

[hunnus2000]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

I did.   Multiple times.  I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer.  Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.

And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican".  I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting.  (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).

No, your spot on. That's exactly how I meant to use the term. But for the record, not to be denigrating but if that term incites a certain stereotype image then so be it. It's where I live. My neighbor was not going to get vaccinated. He's pretty much a redneck but in general a good guy. He buried his mother last Friday who died from covid and he is feeling pretty guilty that he was the one who gave it to her. He is getting vaxxed but it had to take a dead mother to push the needle forward. ( no pun intended)

[Ben_Jamin]

Can someone please answer this?

We live in a society of mandates. We have to have a drivers license, marriage license and in the State I live in, newborn children are subject to a battery of tests to ensure they are healthy and yet, we don't bat an eye with this but when you talk about a vaccine that has proven to save lives, all people want to talk about is "Merican freedom".

How effed up is that?

There are two questions in that post:  Yes, I can answer this.  Zero.  It is zero effed up.   And I've already explained why numerous times.  I don't change my body chemistry to get a driver's license. Nor am I FORCED to get a driver's license if I don't want one.  I can still go see Steel Panther on Saturday if I have a driver's license or not.   I don't change my body chemistry to get a marriage license. Nor am I FORCED to marry if I don't want to. I can still go to see Steel Panther on Saturday if I am married or not.   There are no LAWS I know of that FORCE the battery of tests (yes, some students have to get a physical, but it's not a MANDATE since you can opt to home school if you don't want to go through the examination).   And I would not assume that no one "bat's an eye"; that they exist doesn't mean that everyone necessarily agrees with them.

For me, its not about the certification or the licensure; if I get the vaccine of my own accord, I have no problem at all with measures that force me to declare that, or present proof.  That's a driver's license.   That's a marriage license.  Where my objection starts is any point after which it's not my decision and my decision alone as to whether that needle goes in my arm.  Period.

My bigger point was the irony of how people act with laws and mandates and not thinking twice about vs. how they lose their shit regarding this vaccine. Most people (I will include myself) don't think about certain things to the level you do.

I will say it again, I m not wanting to round people up and jab them but I am all for restricting their rights. We do this ALL THE TIME!

Yes we DO. But THIS is not the same threshold of tolerance as those things because THIS involves the inclusion of Privacy of the Body, and what one can dictate you are required of to be a part of the society.

It's how China can now say they don't want none of that LGTBQ feminization as it is detrimental to their overall "Public Health" of the boys/males not being Masculine enough to fight. And are doing things to make the boys, Men. Rather than a man who will complain like a women and start crying on the battlefield with their emotions and compassion. They, China, dictate that is not what their military requires of the men.

[Ben_Jamin]

I see where you're digging at, and yes the current vaccine has pressed some magical butthurt button across our society. The only thing I think, personal opinion here folks....is that it shows how glaringly privelaged the US is across the board. We have so little suffering that occurs on the regular in other places that we have to manufacture it, and for some reason, the covid vax has clicked all the right boxes at just the right time even though the overwhelming scientific evidence states that it's safe, effective, and the easiest way out of the pandemic.

The vaccine has nothing to do with the why of people....

I feel, it has to do with Trust, and the Trust the authorities have over their people. When that trust is pretty much gone, what makes you think they'll abide and obey their orders if that trust is gone?

These same people are also losing Trust in their own religious leaders.

If the Authorities weren't doing questionable actions and making questionable decisions that do not benefit the people, while disregarding the common folk and people, why should the people trust them?

[lonestar]

That lack of trust is a key sign to how fucking spoiled we are, that we can blindly question people who make it their life's work to understand these things without a shred of credible fucking evidence, and then propagate it like weeds across the internet through every idiot's token social media platform. It's what has devastated any sense of social responsibility across the board.


It's easy to point a finger at 'the man' and act all fucking righteous about it, and it makes you think you're on the side of truth and justice and whatever other bullshit lies you tell yourself to feel better about it, but in the end it's just killing people.

[jingle.boy]

I'll get this one:  I think it is effed up that you think all that people want to talk about is "Merican freedom," but you do you.

It's obvious that you have a hard on for me. I take it as a compliment! 

So answer the question. Prediction - I don't think you can.......

I did.   Multiple times.  I think the onus is on you now to see if you ACKNOWLEDGE the answer.  Not "agree with it", since I don't care about "being right", just acknowledge it as a legitimate answer.

And for the record, I despise the euphemism "'murican".  I think it's demeaning, dismissive, and insulting.  (I mean generally; I'm not accusing you of any of those things.).

No, your spot on. That's exactly how I meant to use the term. But for the record, not to be denigrating but if that term incites a certain stereotype image then so be it.

Sound pretty consistent with how Stdler uses the term “deplorable”. If the shoe fits ....