Coronavirus Thread v.2

[lonestar]

Yup....he's using OSHA to do it. Game on.

[ReaperKK]

From CBS Whitehouse correspondant, Weigia Yang:

The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.

The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.

COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)

Shit is about get real here, people. 

I work at a very large investment bank and the amount of middle-aged banker bros that are anti-vaxx are going to flip their shit. Can't wait to see the work emails when I get Monday.

[Snow Dog]

I have a friend who is a former coworker as a physical therapist who has been actively vocal on Facebook against vaccine mandates and child mask requirements in school. She actively protested against it 1-2 weeks ago. She (and of course others) is going to flip her fucking lid over this.

It might be entertaining to watch, but I might also have to unfollow her for a while if it’s too over the top…

[hunnus2000]

They only brought it on themselves.

They know nothing of personal responsibility.

[Ben_Jamin]

There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.

One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.

That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.

[cramx3]

There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.

One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.

That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.

With so much mandating, if people quit, where will they work?  Id be interested in seeing how many people quit, get the shot, and come back just due to needing a job. 

Out of my close group of friends, 9/11 have been vaccinated.  Of the 2 who are not vaccinated, 1 had covid is a doctor and doesn't see the need (in good health, fairly young at 39)  and the other is a healthy cop at 36 who said he'll get it when they force him.  I think this will put my close circle of friends at full immunity soon enough, not that it bothered me to hang with either of them.  I have my protection, I feel fine.

Last night I went to a small indoor concert.  They checked vaccines against ID.  First time I feel like a concert legit took that seriously.  I expect them to as well tonight for another indoor concert.

[Ben_Jamin]

There's going to a lot of fallback from the consequences of this decision.

One is that if many of these people walk out of work and don't comply and quit. How many of them are essential to the production of the system in which we work. How many of them are the only ones that are reliant to where business operations won't halt. If there are protests of these workers not working, then we best prepare for many, many, many services and goods that make us comfortable to not be produced and will not be in supply.

That is what I am expecting to happen, as many, including vaccinated people, go out on the streets to protest this coercive mandate.

With so much mandating, if people quit, where will they work?  Id be interested in seeing how many people quit, get the shot, and come back just due to needing a job. 

Out of my close group of friends, 9/11 have been vaccinated.  Of the 2 who are not vaccinated, 1 had covid is a doctor and doesn't see the need (in good health, fairly young at 39)  and the other is a healthy cop at 36 who said he'll get it when they force him.  I think this will put my close circle of friends at full immunity soon enough, not that it bothered me to hang with either of them.  I have my protection, I feel fine.

Last night I went to a small indoor concert.  They checked vaccines against ID.  First time I feel like a concert legit took that seriously.  I expect them to as well tonight for another indoor concert.

Speaking of 9/11...I love how he did this on the Thursday in the 20th anniversary week of 9/11....

[Chino]

From CBS Whitehouse correspondant, Weigia Yang:

The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.

The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.

COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)

Shit is about get real here, people. 

I work at a very large investment bank and the amount of middle-aged banker bros that are anti-vaxx are going to flip their shit. Can't wait to see the work emails when I get Monday.

On Sundays I work for a mom and pop grocery store's catering department. They have four locations and 430 employees give or take. There aren't exact numbers, but something like maybe 50% of the company is actually vaccinated. The girl I share a bench with refuses to get the shot because she saw posts on Facebook that showed deformed babies coming out of women who got the shot during pregnancy (she's not pregnant). I'm really curious what she's going to do. Many people are in her shoes. Even if they quit, where are they going to go? There are only so many kitchen style jobs for companies with less than 100 employees, I'm guessing demand for those positions will be through the roof with next to no supply. 

[goo-goo]

I'm fully vaccinated and I wish this would be over. One hand, yes, let's do this Biden mandate and get it over with. On the other,  I really think this decision will set future precedents for government power (everybody pulling out executive orders up their ass is also a problem). I don't like it at all. I'm of the thought that you make a choice, you live with the consequences. You get the vaccine, you have a lower risk of developing severe symptoms. You don't get the vaccine, you take the risk, and live, get mildly sick, or die intubated.

I read a comment somewhere that really resonated with me and to paraphrase, it said: "we have the freedom to learn how to read or not to. We can grow into adulthood being illiterate  as possible, just don't cry foul when you can't read or fill out an application". This applies to the vaccine.

Applying the Dept of Labor/OSHA legal justification sounds like a desperate shot at getting more people vaccinated. It may apply to healthcare workers because they are exposed to toxins and pathogens but for an office worker? Unfortunately (or fortunately) there is already a precedent with a similar case that went through the Supreme Court back in 1905 for the smallpox vaccine and I think this is what Biden is hoping for: if this goes to the SC, then the judges look back at this 1905 case and go for it. This also sets up massive legal fights between private companies, unions, and states. I don't think federal employees can really do anything about the mandate though (not sure).

I have very mixed feelings about this and it is sad that personal accountability doesn't exist anymore (personal, government, companies pushing agendas, spreading misinformation, etc).

Edit: employer asked me to upload my vaccination card today and complied.

[Stadler]

They only brought it on themselves.

They know nothing of personal responsibility.

That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes.   

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake.  It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier. 

[Ben_Jamin]

You know that the US postal service  is exempt from the mandate.

[Chino]

You know that the US postal service  is exempt from the mandate.

No they aren't. If not vaccinated, USPS employees still need to undergo the weekly testing as required by the mandate.


https://nypost.com/2021/09/09/usps-exempt-from-biden-vax-mandate-for-100m-workers/

But nearly four hours after that understanding was reported, the White House issued a clarification saying that postal workers will have a choice between getting vaccinated and getting tested once a week, just like workers at large companies.

“USPS is not included in the executive order requiring vaccination of Federal employees. USPS has a separate statutory scheme and is traditionally independent of federal personnel actions like this,” a Biden administration official said.

He added: “That said, USPS is strongly encouraged to comply. Also, [the Labor Department’s Occupational Safety and Health Administration] will cover USPS through the [emergency temporary standards], meaning that postal workers will be subject to the vaccination or testing policy announced today.”

[Ben_Jamin]

And....All they had to do is require testing for everybody. And that would be the best way to handle this. As it is now. It's causing a lot of unnervingly unsettling discourse. And is further pushing that dividing line further away from unifying and coming together as a nation.

[Harmony]

Do we still consider it a "mandate" if people (other than healthcare workers and maybe teachers) are given the option to test instead?

Seems to me that makes it more of a choice.  Maybe that is just semantics but not getting the vaccine for most people doesn't defacto mean they will be unemployed.

[Ben_Jamin]

I feel sorry for the businesses owners now having more of an issue to deal with in regards to their workers and themselves not wanting to be adamant about demanding people to get a vaccine. As they feel, it's not the governments job to tell people what they can do with their bodies.

Is bodily autonomy private or not. Because that precident was set by Texas and now is the government being hypocrites by allowing one form of bodily autonomy to be acceptable while claiming another is not.

[hunnus2000]

They only brought it on themselves.

They know nothing of personal responsibility.

That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes.   

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake.  It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.

When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?

If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....

BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.

[ProfessorPeart]

Politics has ruined this whole thing. I would venture to guess that 99% of the anti-covid vax crowd has all gotten their shots when they were younger and also got their kids all their shots. Now this vaccine comes along for this 'fake' disease and people are all against it. Just something I was thinking about.

Just got the annual email from my work yesterday that the flu shot campaign has started. If I don't get the shot, I'm fired. Been like that for years. Never any pushback on it. They also mandated the covid shot as a job requirement. Not sure if anyone in the company has raised a stink like I have seen at other healthcare companies.

This whole thing is so dumb.

[Skeever]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:

I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.

[Stadler]

They only brought it on themselves.

They know nothing of personal responsibility.

That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes.   

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake.  It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.

When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?

As if the liberal talking point isn't?   If you have two issues, and two parties on either side, and one side are hypocrites, BY DEFINITION the other side are hypocrites as well.  I'm a personal autonomy guy; I personally think our duty is to ourselves, and anything else is a bonus.  I'm not here to defend a group position, or defend OTHER people's hypocrisy.  Ask them.  I'm advocating for MY position and I'm fairly comfortable that I am consistent across most/all topics on this.

If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....

Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?   I don't accept that as a foundational gospel.  And even if we do agree on that, we have a LOT of things to discuss, because you're just trading one hypocrisy for another at this point.  What is the "needs of the many" with allowing individuals to select their bathroom, or select their gender?    What is the "needs of the many" with the idea of celebrating obesity?  What is the "needs of the many" with ignoring the crippling divisiveness in our country and continuing on with "slamming deplroables" and "pwning libtards" (in quotes only to distinguish discrete ideas, not to directly quote anyone).   

BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.

You'll have to point out the insult; I mean nothing here personally.  I attack ideas, yes, but I do not attack people (unless CLEARLY defending myself from same, and usually not even then).   "Disagreeing with someone" shouldn't be "insulting".   If it is, we have a MUCH bigger problem (and that certainly explains a lot of the national divisiveness we're experiencing, if that's how some people feel). 

[Adami]

Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? 

Glad I could contribute.

[Stadler]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:

I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.

The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you.  I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated.  I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about.  Or that our policy should address.  Or that the law should be subordinate to.   A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).

[Skeever]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:

I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.

The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you.  I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated.  I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about.  Or that our policy should address.  Or that the law should be subordinate to.   A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).

Don't twist it - my feelings are based on pretty realistic views on the pandemic and what it is doing to people around the world, as well as substantial evidence that vaccines are an immediate and effective answer.  I don't see the law as subordinating to feelings here, whether they're mine or anyone elses. Taking it a step further, I'm not sure I agree that the law is being subordinated at all.

Not that I would necessarily care if it the law was, in fact, being subordinated.

[Chino]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request, so questions of legality aside (of which I have many), I will say this:

I hope, at least, that it works. I'm not thrilled about having to return to the office, but I'll feel better if I know that over 75% of my coworkers are vaccinated.
I'm not thrilled about having to keep a child in daycare, but I'll feel better knowing that the staff are mostly all vaccinated and that the parents of the children are, too.

The interesting thing is, I'm against this largely (though if it really is a choice - vaccine or test - then I'm a lot more comfortable with it) but even so, I feel the same way as you.  I WOULD feel better if those around me and my kids were vaccinated.  I just don't value "my feeling better" as anything that anyone else should be worried about.  Or that our policy should address.  Or that the law should be subordinate to.   A lot - too much - of our recent policy seems predicated on that most subjective (and elusive) of standards and we're not better off for it (it's only serving to deepen our divisiveness).

There's a muddy line between "I feel safer" and "I am safer". I was reading this morning, I think it was in Kentucky, all patients currently in ICU with Covid under the age of 50 are not vaccinated. It's clear that communities as a whole are safer if vaccinated (see CT's rates). I don't just feel safer with speed limits on the highway, I am safer, even if some people choose to ignore those limits. That's kind of where I'm at with this.

This is the right move as far as public safety goes, though it doesn't sit perfectly square with me. Seeing as employees still have the option to get tested weekly instead of outright being fired for not being vaccinated, I'm a bit more oaky with it I think.   

[cramx3]

Who's paying for all this testing though?  Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government? 

[Cool Chris]

Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? 

Glad I could contribute.

Was going to jump all over that question but see it was addressed. But then realized... I have no idea who the hell that is.

[jingle.boy]

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake

I kinda agree.  I don't think this is a wise way to use a stick.



However, if everyone has the option to provide negative tests as an alternative, I'm fully on-board with that.

Who's paying for all this testing though?  Does it come out of the employee pocket? Insurance? The government? 

This is a good question.  If it all of a sudden becomes a personal expense to prove you (royal) are COVID free weekly, or more frequently, I'd surmise the vax rates will go up rather dramatically.

I was watching a Civil Rights lawyer interviewed recently, and part of his commentary/message was twofold.  First, all of the vaccine "mandates" or passports are simply ways of "credentialling" people.  We as a society do this ALL... THE ... TIME.  So, this is simply just a new form of a credential that is needed for access to various places/services.  Second, so long as there is an alternate option or choice, nothing is being "mandated".  IE, if someone can forego the vax, but still comply to get their credentials via testing or some other option, then they rights (fundamental, constitutional, otherwise) are not being infringed.

[Ben_Jamin]

Here's what Louis Rossman has to say about it, being a business owner himself...

Louis Anthony Rossmann (born November 19, 1988)[2][3] is an American independent repair technician, YouTube personality, and right to repair activist. He is the owner and operator of Rossmann Repair Group in New York City, a computer repair shop established in 2007 which specializes in logic board-level repair of MacBooks. Rossmann rose in popularity with his YouTube channel showing his repairs to provide as an educational resource, frequently live streaming repairs on YouTube, Twitch, and Vimeo.[4] On his YouTube channel, he also uploads tutorials on life, business practices, real estate, and right to repair videos. Rossmann has actively campaigned for right to repair legislation to be passed in multiple cities and state legislatures.

https://youtu.be/SnTJtyWIP1w

[hunnus2000]

They only brought it on themselves.

They know nothing of personal responsibility.

That's rich coming from a guy who is essentially advocating making other people do things against their will to comply with his personal wishes.   

This is MAYBE a short-term win (at best) and almost definitely a long-term mistake.  It's also going to make the anti-abortion argument that much easier.

When I refer to personal responsibility I am actually being sarcastic because I remember when the the W years turned into to the Obama years and one of the conservatives talking points was "personal responsibility" which was always BS. Now the unvaccinated claim "my body my choice" which women having been screaming at the top of their lungs for years yet guess who gets their choice taken away?

As if the liberal talking point isn't?   If you have two issues, and two parties on either side, and one side are hypocrites, BY DEFINITION the other side are hypocrites as well.  I'm a personal autonomy guy; I personally think our duty is to ourselves, and anything else is a bonus.  I'm not here to defend a group position, or defend OTHER people's hypocrisy.  Ask them.  I'm advocating for MY position and I'm fairly comfortable that I am consistent across most/all topics on this.

If the you interpret, however incorrectly, that I want the unvaccinated to bow to my will then so be it but always remember that the needs of the many outweigh the needs or wants of the few. Nobody is body slamming the unvaxxed and jabbing them with a needle but you want to have certain perceived freedoms then get vaxxed. I think United is about to furlough employees that are unvaxxed. It's their choice or would you want to take that choice away? Sounds like you do.....

Who said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?   I don't accept that as a foundational gospel.  And even if we do agree on that, we have a LOT of things to discuss, because you're just trading one hypocrisy for another at this point.  What is the "needs of the many" with allowing individuals to select their bathroom, or select their gender?    What is the "needs of the many" with the idea of celebrating obesity?  What is the "needs of the many" with ignoring the crippling divisiveness in our country and continuing on with "slamming deplroables" and "pwning libtards" (in quotes only to distinguish discrete ideas, not to directly quote anyone).   

BTW - you consistently use insults to make a point and I would think that a man with multiple degrees and being a lawyer could make a point without resorting to this kind of language.

You'll have to point out the insult; I mean nothing here personally.  I attack ideas, yes, but I do not attack people (unless CLEARLY defending myself from same, and usually not even then).   "Disagreeing with someone" shouldn't be "insulting".   If it is, we have a MUCH bigger problem (and that certainly explains a lot of the national divisiveness we're experiencing, if that's how some people feel).

You're so full of it. You make the above statement and then you try to lessen it with cute emojis, not for my benefit but so you can placate the moderators. "oh look at me sir, I'm innocent". I am convinced you don't want any real conversation but you just want to be right.

Just like a lawyer.....

[bosk1]

Hunnus, knock it off.  The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you.  Stop the personal attacks and insults.

[hunnus2000]

Hunnus, knock it off.  The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you.  Stop the personal attacks and insults.

It wasn't me who personally attacked and you know it. And I am NOT the confrontational one jn this conversation.

BOSK - At least be fair and consistent.

[darkshade]

I might be a skeleton before a mod honors my PR request

[lonestar]

 

[bosk1]

Hunnus, knock it off.  The only one being confrontational and insulting in this conversation is you.  Stop the personal attacks and insults.

It wasn't me who personally attacked and you know it. And I am NOT the confrontational one jn this conversation.

BOSK - At least be fair and consistent.

Yes, you actually are.  For clarification, here are some examples:

Check your reading comprehension. ... 

You're so full of it.

I am convinced you don't want any real conversation but you just want to be right.

Just like a lawyer.....

Each taken by itself, probably not too far over the line.  But taken as a whole, with the hostile tone of several of your posts on this topic, show a very hostile tone and look like an intent to belittle another user and bait him into a fight rather that discussing the topic at hand.

Stadler's posts, in contrast, have none of that namecalling, baiting, and taking passive-aggressive personal shots.  Yours do.  You've been warned.  Read it and heed it, or ignore it and deal with the consequences.  Your can discuss the issue respectfully, or you can see yourself out.  I would prefer to see you stay because, for one thing, you make really good points and you bring valuable perspective (not only in this thread, but elsewhere).  But, as Stadler put it, attack the argument (and feel free to do so vigorously), not the person.  Your call how you choose to proceed.

[KevShmev]

I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate.  On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it.  Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know.  It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.

[King Postwhore]

I know I am not alone in this, but I am torn on this whole mandate.  On the one hand, if it gets more people vaccinated, that is a great thing, but on the other hand, I am not sure this is the best way to go about it.  Don't ask me what a better way is because I honestly do not know.  It just feels like this mandate is not the right move at this time.

It's such a tough decision.   I'm with you.  I'm torn.