Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Stadler]

I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it.  NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things. 

You're the lucky one.  Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law.  They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts.  Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.

Every woman I've dated/married (except my current wife!) has cheated on me.  Therefore all women are lying cheating whores.    That's how it works, right?   

[El Barto]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

[Stadler]

Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.

Actually, you are factually wrong about that and I've posted numerous links to that effect.  It DOES work, over time.  It's the very marginalization that you all are engaging in that is, in part, encouraging and stimulating the "rebelliousness" (for lack of a better word).  I've given links for that as well.   

We talk all the time about being people of science, and yet when the science rubs against the grain it seems that all of a sudden not that important.   Why do you get to ignore the science, but they don't?

[hunnus2000]

We all just need to take some livestock de-wormer, sit in a circle and sing kumbaya. That will make covid just go away.

 

[Stadler]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS".   I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.   It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.   

[El Barto]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS".   I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.   It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.

Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.

[Dave_Manchester]

edit, bugger it, never mind.

[MoraWintersoul]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS".   I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.

This argument rings pretty false to me. The ridicule generally starts when people start saying ridiculous things, and out of personal experience, you can be as kind and loving and hedged as you like, they still won't listen to you, even people who are supposed to have some modicum of respect for you. (Hedging that mine were older, and older people think us younguns are stupid, but they do end up listening when it's something else)

This opinion post kind of nails it for me: https://imightbewrong.substack.com/p/how-do-we-get-enough-people-vaccinated

[jingle.boy]

Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.

I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread?   I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.

That Israeli study is important.   We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to,

You know Bill, I luv ya and all, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of you boiling this down to what "we" (royal/proverbial) WANT.  This isn't about what I WANT - it's about unvaccinated people refusing to take reasonable steps to safeguard public health.  If someone doesn't wear a hair net in a kitchen restaurant, it isn't because *I* want them to.  If someone doesn't build my house with asbestos, it's not because *I* want it that way.  If jingle.daughter were to have sex with someone who has AIDS, it's not that I expect them to disclose it just because *I* want them to.

What I *want* is public health.  What I *want* is to personally not have to worry that others' choices are going to affect my health.  It's the outcome that I want, I don't give a fuck about the behaviour to get that outcome.  I (and you) took the vaccine, and mask up when/where necessary.  Those are the steps that we took to do our part to achieve that outcome.  For others that actively choose to not follow those steps (especially when doing so is a direct contradiction to your gov't or employment guidance), then stay the fuck out of situations where you might collect someone's droplets, and/or pass infected droplets along to others.

[jingle.boy]

we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

What?  Absolutely the Po-Po can pull you over for a seatbelt violation (at least, up here they can).  If social media existed in the 70s and 80s when seatbelts became law, and if LBJ/Nixon/Ford had encouraged people NOT to wear seatbelts, I'm pretty sure lots of people would have resisted it.  And I think people are refusing to hang out with unvaccinated not for their views, but for the fact they're UN-FUCKING-VACCINATED.

[DragonAttack]

Went to the final round of the BMW Championship yesterday here in Maryland.  Masks were required at our 16th/17th hole 'trophy club' building, the merchandise store, but......not in the buses for the 15 minute ride to and from the prepaid parking lot.  So.....we're all in a sardine can, and 70% of the riders were unmasked.      

Our positivity rate is now near 5%, hospitalizations up to near 800 from below 100 in the last month, but our governor plays risk with kids going back to school without a state mandate, and....  people are still waiting to get UE checks from the state.  Oddly, some times people get a late response (if any) because some intern is on vacation. 

https://raskin.house.gov/2021/8/maryland-congressional-delegation-pushes-for-answers-from-state-department-of-labor-on-delivery-of-unemployment-benefits

[Harmony]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS".   I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.   It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.

Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.

Same here.

It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a QAnon follower or a flat Earther.  You pretty much know what you are going to get going in.

Anyone follow scitimewithtracy?  She's a PhD in microbiology and immunology.  She typically posts up someone talking about the vaccine who has questions or is saying something incorrect and then rebuts the inaccuracies in real time.  It's pretty good and she's not disparaging, just stating the facts.

[Ben_Jamin]

we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

What?  Absolutely the Po-Po can pull you over for a seatbelt violation (at least, up here they can).  If social media existed in the 70s and 80s when seatbelts became law, and if LBJ/Nixon/Ford had encouraged people NOT to wear seatbelts, I'm pretty sure lots of people would have resisted it.  And I think people are refusing to hang out with unvaccinated not for their views, but for the fact they're UN-FUCKING-VACCINATED.

If they're so concerned and worried about it they are.

I know many people who just don't care and still hang out with unvaccinated people. They understand being vaccinated is fine and if that other person is unvaccinated than that is their choice. I know people who hang out at places with unvaccinated people. These people are not worried as much about it, their risk is now smaller because they took the vaccine, so their mindset is now "why worry? I took the vaccine so I should be fine?"

[lonestar]

Not surprising.

The world is full of people who simply refuse to be reasonable. You of all people should know this. I'm content to leave them be, but if their response to a reasoned argument is first to move the goal posts, and then to attack me for being brainwashed, then I'd say they're honestly pretty deserving of contempt. Personally, I'd love the opportunity to set and talk to a reasonable antivaxer. Not one that would agree with me, mind you, but one that would at least listen to what I have to say and proffer up some valid counterpoints. Sadly, those types are few and far between compared to the obtuse dipshits.

One of the points I make a lot is that it's pretty hard to start that dialogue when the opening salvo is "COVIDIOTS".   I can't imagine anyone here who is anti-vaxx wanting to subject themselves to the scorn and ridicule.   It's like me over in that Fox-bashing thread; I've given the links refuting the reach of Fox, I've given the links refuting the audience for Fox, I've given the links regarding the ascendent partisanship of CNN and MSNBC, but in the face of an argument built on racist posts in the "comments" section, it's time to prioritize.

Yeah, that's not me. I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.

Same here.

It's like trying to have a sane conversation with a QAnon follower or a flat Earther.  You pretty much know what you are going to get going in.

Anyone follow scitimewithtracy?  She's a PhD in microbiology and immunology.  She typically posts up someone talking about the vaccine who has questions or is saying something incorrect and then rebuts the inaccuracies in real time.  It's pretty good and she's not disparaging, just stating the facts.

Unfortunately simple facts are pretty worthless when flying in the face of fanaticism, which is the level the antivax movement has moved to. The main reason I take serious umbrage to it is that I am allergic to a vaccine, and the disease it would protect me against would put me out for a month at least at my age, but most antivaxxers put it off as a simple childhood illness, a mild inconvenience at best and profess the benefits of 'natural immunity' even though the process of getting said kids natural immunity could be very, very devistating to me if I got caught in the crossfire.

[cramx3]

Latest NJ breakthrough statistics tweeted by our governor today up to August 15th

[ErHaO]

In The Netherlands, the latest data shows fully vaccinated people are 20 times less likely to end up in a hospital and 33 times less likely to end up in an ICU due to covid, when compared to unvaccinated people. The vast majority of people in hospitals right now because of covid are unvaccinated people.

(Dutch source https://www.rivm.nl/nieuws/vaccins-ook-bij-deltavariant-zeer-effectief-tegen-ziekenhuis-en-ic-opname)

[Stadler]

Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.

I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread?   I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.

That Israeli study is important.   We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to,

You know Bill, I luv ya and all, but I'm a little sick and fucking tired of you boiling this down to what "we" (royal/proverbial) WANT.  This isn't about what I WANT - it's about unvaccinated people refusing to take reasonable steps to safeguard public health.  If someone doesn't wear a hair net in a kitchen restaurant, it isn't because *I* want them to.  If someone doesn't build my house with asbestos, it's not because *I* want it that way.  If jingle.daughter were to have sex with someone who has AIDS, it's not that I expect them to disclose it just because *I* want them to.

What I *want* is public health.  What I *want* is to personally not have to worry that others' choices are going to affect my health.  It's the outcome that I want, I don't give a fuck about the behaviour to get that outcome.  I (and you) took the vaccine, and mask up when/where necessary.  Those are the steps that we took to do our part to achieve that outcome.  For others that actively choose to not follow those steps (especially when doing so is a direct contradiction to your gov't or employment guidance), then stay the fuck out of situations where you might collect someone's droplets, and/or pass infected droplets along to others.

It IS what you want.  "Reasonable steps"; some people DO NOT WANT TO PUT THAT SHOT IN THEIR BODY.  They get to decide that, whether you - or I, mind you - think it's reasonable or not.  I don't care if we've "forced" this before.  That doesn't make it right from the standpoint of someone's personal decision. I don't care if they pound diet soda or smoke.  That doesn't make it right from the standpoint of someone's personal decision.  There are countless people that homeschool their kids for this very reason.   It doesn't matter if they are "right" or "wrong".   

I think we've lost perspective on this.   Some of you - maybe from your own experience, rightfully - are dismissing these people as "morons" because they are factually incorrect.   And I'm saying that it doesn't matter.  I'm saying that's a big part of our divisiveness in our country today.   FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, that's Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and yet I treat her with reasonable respect and dignity.  I think she's top five most dangerous politicians in our government, yet, if you've noticed, I NEVER - EVER - refer to her as anything other than "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez".  I never make fun of her, I don't even shorten her name to "AOC".   Some of the things she says are provably, factually wrong, and while they don't sound batshit crazy to some of you, they are nonetheless still PROVABLY, FACTUALLY wrong.  And how many people do you know that dismiss her as a loon?  Is it right?  NOPE, and it's a big part of why our government is as incapable of acting as it's ever been, technology and communication notwithstanding. 

I'm not asking any of you to LIKE what these people are doing - I don't - or agree with it - I don't.  I'm asking you to understand that you might actually have a role in WHY they are so recalcitrant, militantly so.  It's not going to change overnight in the snap of a finger, but every brick in the wall helps.  Just like every person that doesn't take the easy way out with a racial stereotype is making the world a (slightly) better place.   

Ironically, "do your part"; I'm asking you to do with discourse exactly what you're trying to force everyone else to do with vaccines, except I'm not forcing you to do it, I'm ASKING.  Big difference.

[jingle.boy]

I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants".  I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further. 

Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me.  As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.

And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this?  Serious statement this time, don't make this political.  Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.

We see things very differently.  You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health.  I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health.  We'll agree to disagree.

I yield, counsellor.

[ganpondorodf]

Myself and Mrs Gan were at the store the other day and probably just over half of the people were wearing masks (suburban North Carolina, fwiw). I can't help but see people not wearing masks, assuming they're probably unvaxxed too, and just wonder how many of them will be dead by the end of the year because they're not taking very basic steps to protect themselves and others out of some bizarre sense of pride. It's not even sad anymore; if you're not convinced at this point nothing will do the job. Only way we're getting close to normal is once the virus has had its way with everyone, and I feel not an ounce of sympathy for anyone who gets it bad if they chose not to get vaxxed/wear masks/distance etc. If you can't take the vax for medical reasons that's obviously different. But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

[Ben_Jamin]

I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants".  I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further. 

Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me.  As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.

And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this?  Serious statement this time, don't make this political.  Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.

We see things very differently.  You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health.  I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health.  We'll agree to disagree.

I yield, counsellor.

Many of these people's personal decisions, ended up with consequences that made them susceptible to Covid-19. All these conditions that are affecting the health of our nation's people are easily preventable. But does our government do something about it. Yes it has, and that is the "Soda Tax", the "Cigarette Tax" and the "Alcohol tax". They tried taking away the unhealthy alcohol and we know what the consequences of that decision was, the people did not like it and rebelled, even though getting rid of the alcohol is beneficial for the health of the people.

And I've said it before, there are things that impact your health that you may be unaware of that does affect your health, even if it does it slowly. There's people with running water that is toxic they have to boil it, oil leakage causes water contamination which affects the wells for drinking water.

Someone could poison the water hole, or even, slip some certain substance into your food. Cooks whom don't cook your food right affects your health if you get food poisoning. Eating raw, undercooked meats, gets you food poisoning, and I your immune system isn't strong enough, that can kill you.

Businesses disregard the publics health for their factories which sends pollutants into the air and now we humans are concerned and worried about the Ozone layer.

I am telling you, if they really cared about our public health than I would question why are they not concerned about these other decisions they decide that does affect all of our public health?

[cramx3]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it. 

[Chino]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

I can't remember which radio personality it was, as there have been a few of them now, but I was reading that one of them was still claiming online that Covid was a hoax from his hospital bed.

[El Barto]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Nah, they'll just choose to believe the guy that says Delta is caused by the vaccine. It was the rest of us that killed him, rather than his own poor judgement.

[hefdaddy42]

Every woman I've dated/married (except my current wife!) has cheated on me.  Therefore all women are lying cheating whores.    That's how it works, right?   

No, just all women that YOU date (except your current wife).

Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts.

Actually, you are factually wrong about that and I've posted numerous links to that effect.  It DOES work, over time. It's the very marginalization that you all are engaging in that is, in part, encouraging and stimulating the "rebelliousness" (for lack of a better word).  I've given links for that as well.   

We talk all the time about being people of science, and yet when the science rubs against the grain it seems that all of a sudden not that important.   Why do you get to ignore the science, but they don't?

How much time should I give these people?  Asking for a friend.  Since, you know, we don't have any time due to hospitals filling up right now and all.

I've never called anyone a covidiot. I have answered "honest questions" only to be treated to a series of nonsensical messages about experimental genetic testing, or misguided screeds about "personal responsibility," though. A person may well be a "covidiot," but until he demonstrates that he starts off inherently neutral in my book. If you're willing to have a civil conversation about something then I'm typically eager to partake. If you're not, then you're deserving of ridicule.

Exactly.  My stance exactly.

[Chino]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/native-american-tribes-mask-mandates-schools

Native tribes are able to circumvent state bans and institute their own mandates.

Under the US constitution, federally recognized tribes, such as the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee Nation, have self-governing authority, and so have been able to implement mask mandates despite the statewide bans.

Jason Dropik, board president of the National Indian Education Association and the head of the Indian community school in Wisconsin, said the majority of Native communities he had heard from in states with these bans have implemented mask mandates.

The reasoning, he explained, often had to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans have had to deal with a disproportionately high death toll from Covid. According to an analysis released in February, one in every 475 Native Americans has died since the pandemic started – a greater proportion of any other demographic in the country.


Man, 1 in 475. I didn't realize the numbers were that bad.

[Ben_Jamin]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.

It's showing you that not everyone that is unvaccinated thinks this way or is idolizing a person's vocal opinion. It's showing there are many different reasons for why someone is unvaccinated. And it's not what you, or others, assume these people's mindsets to be, based off your own assumptions and experiences.

Others do experience these people that do have their reasons for being unvaccinated, and it's not because someone on the internet told them too.

[Ben_Jamin]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/31/native-american-tribes-mask-mandates-schools

Native tribes are able to circumvent state bans and institute their own mandates.

Under the US constitution, federally recognized tribes, such as the Navajo Nation and the Cherokee Nation, have self-governing authority, and so have been able to implement mask mandates despite the statewide bans.

Jason Dropik, board president of the National Indian Education Association and the head of the Indian community school in Wisconsin, said the majority of Native communities he had heard from in states with these bans have implemented mask mandates.

The reasoning, he explained, often had to do with the fact that Indigenous Americans have had to deal with a disproportionately high death toll from Covid. According to an analysis released in February, one in every 475 Native Americans has died since the pandemic started – a greater proportion of any other demographic in the country.


Man, 1 in 475. I didn't realize the numbers were that bad.

I can give you many, many, many explanations as to why. And I have before...

One explanation is due to how our people were treated and the things that were done to us to deplete our own resources we relied on for our health. Food, our land, and our livelihoods. We became dependant on the other, that these products of foods made us unhealthy, these were called commodities. Which gave the rise in what we term Frybread. Which in turn caused our people to have these high rates of unhealthy conditions that are making us susceptible to this disease and is killing us due to the lack of basic resources humans require to survive.

We were forced onto these reservations where the land was hard to work with and harder to grow foods, we suffer from lack of clean water, and lack of basic healthcare needs. We get the backend of that stick and usually when we go into the doctor, we are told "oh, it's just a virus, take these and get some rest."

There's more when you dig deeper that caused us Natives to have these high rates of unhealthiness, to the point this virus is detrimental to us.

[Chino]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.

If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.

[Ben_Jamin]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Nah, they'll just choose to believe the guy that says Delta is caused by the vaccine. It was the rest of us that killed him, rather than his own poor judgement.

So it's his personal choice that killed him. 

And not any of the unvaccinated or the vaccinated that can still spread it. Are these people blaming others for supposedly giving them Covid-19 and them in the hospital for it? No, they're saying how it's their own fault. They're taking personal accountability. Unlike some that do not take accountability for putting themselves in that situation by ignoring the advice of the doctors and many experts saying how food and diet is essential to ones health.

I only say this due to how much people in the US have these health conditions that make them susceptible to hospitalization due to Covid-19. And these are easily preventable conditions.

 

[cramx3]

Others do experience these people that do have their reasons for being unvaccinated, and it's not because someone on the internet told them too.

There's plenty of legit reasons to be unvaccinated, this discussion has never been about them. It's specifically about the people not being vaccinated because of bogus claims, almost all of which come from random people on social media who profit off these bogus claims. 

[Ben_Jamin]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.

If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.

Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.

Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.

People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.

[Chino]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.

If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.

Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.

Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.

People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.

So which is it?

[ProfessorPeart]

So the Florida mask ban gets struck down by a judge. What does their Grim Reaper Governor do? Withholds funds from 2 school districts that defied him.

This authoritarian stance makes me TERRIFIED! (poking Stadler with that last bit  )

[Ben_Jamin]

But this relentless march of moronic right wing anti-vax radio hosts dying of it? Lol.

It's amazing to me how there's been so many stories lately of vocal anti-vaxxers dying of covid.  You'd think after many examples of this, that the people who were listening to them would realize how wrong they were.  But it's not happening.  I don't get it.

Because people think for themselves and these people do not follow or idolize these people like people do with celebrities and youtubers. That's why these people are not convinced by these "influencers" deaths.

If that was true, Alex Jones wouldn't sell millions of dollars worth of "Super Male Vitality" pills a year.

Yeah and people buy questionable crap all the damn time. It's the point of Steven Wilson making Personal Shopper. Consumerism works and Alex Jones is proof that if you are vocal and have a presence you will get people to listen to you. Anything else people do of their own choice. Alex Jones is not forcing people to buy his male enhancement crap. People who can't get it up are the ones buying his crap.

Just look at how many women read certain books because it's featured and has an Oprah sticker on the cover. How many people buy things on TV, and how many people follow trends on social media, such as the tide pod challenge or the milk crate challenge.

People choose to do these things. Unless they are being influenced to do these things, the same as those people are influenced into buying Alex Jones male vitality pills.

So which is it?

I wouldn't know. I'm not the one claiming these people are "anti-vaxxers" and only believe what they hear and see on social media...

I claim that everyone does this with regards to doing what is on the TV or Social Media. People will do what is told of them on the TV or Social Media without thinking for themselves.

So the Florida mask ban gets struck down by a judge. What does their Grim Reaper Governor do? Withholds funds from 2 school districts that defied him.

This authoritarian stance makes me TERRIFIED! (poking Stadler with that last bit  )

It's because this works both ways. You can't let one get away with authoritarian regulations and then condemn the other for doing the same exact thing.

There's two boots in a pair.

[Stadler]

I'm not sure how to make my point any clearer, but something is clearly getting lost in translation about "wants".  I don't know how else to state it, so I won't try any further. 

Regarless, if you're going to draw even the slightest comparison of the outcomes of COVID to the outcomes of 'pounding diet soda or smoking', then you've permanently lost me.  As EB and many others have pointed out, those are PERSONAL decisions, with individual and personal ramifications, and does not have the potential of directly impacting my health.

And where the fuck does AOC (it's just easier to type it that way) come into this?  Serious statement this time, don't make this political.  Take those arguments to the Politics of Coronavirus thread.

We see things very differently.  You seem to believe that it's reasonable for people to act in a manner that shows a complete disregard of any concern for PUBLIC health.  I don't think it's unreasonable for people take steps to safeguard public health.  We'll agree to disagree.

I yield, counsellor.

Whether you or I CAN (possibly) get this virus isn't the primary driver for me. I can get hit by a bus or drop from a major coronary tomorrow and I'm not going to see it coming.  I am doing everything I can to protect myself; I can't change you or you or you, I can't make you do everything I want you to, so I accept there are no guarantees in this life other than Cam is going to dance and we're all going to die at some point.   I rate "potential dying" pretty high on the list of priorities, but I also rate "personal autonomy" pretty high as well.  It's a balance.

I'll put this as bluntly as I can:
You see the data, you see these people willfully and knowing flouting that data and drawing an erroneous conclusion, with significant consequences for you.  You deride and marginalize them.  Fair enough description?

I see the data regarding our divisiveness (I have put several links up here repeatedly, showing the current research on how it starts, why it starts, how we stop it), I see people willfully and knowingly flouting that data  - here, using "COVIDIOTS" and "morons" and whatever - and drawing an erroneous conclusion - that it has no impact on why these people are being stubborn mules - with significant consequences for all of us - not only are they not vaccinated, but they are militantly so, AND they are a piece of the divisiveness that is crippling this country (look at Dave's post about Afghanistan a week or so ago).   

I'm not asking you to agree with me (though I hope you do). I'm asking you see how this looks and acknowledge at least that if you get to ignore the science, so do they.  OR, at bare minimum, acknowledge the hypocrisy in the position and acknowledge that for better or worse this is just a playground fist fight and we're just picking different ways of circling the drain.

(I brought up Ocasio-Cortez because I thought it would be a clear enough example without bringing specific people in this forum into play.  Whether you rate "COVID" higher than her economic or other impacts or not, that's up to you.  I consider our divisiveness to be as great or even a greater threat than COVID, and so I DO see it as harmful to all of us (I also consider a lot of her general politics, and her approach to those politics, to be part of the reason we got Trump, and I think we all agree he was dangerous).)