Coronavirus Thread v.2

[King Postwhore]

Negative test results as well.   Here is the info from Rolling Stone.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/live-nation-updates-covid-19-vaccination-negative-test-1212323/

[lonestar]

Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.

I am good with that.  Even though I am fully vaccinated and wish everyone would be so as well, I fully support anyone's right to not get vaccinated. However, with that choice comes consequences, and the above is one.  Choose not to get vaccinated?  Okay.  Then you can't go to concerts. Your choice.

That is the nuts and bolts of it, and that's what people are going to have to accept going forward for the next few years.

It just fucking sucks that there will be preventable deaths of those who can't get vaxxed, solely because of the ignorant selfishness of those who don't want to.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well actually Ben starting October 1st, Live Nation is making you show proof of vaccination or you can't get into any of their shows.

Over here, they're requiring a negative test to be let in. And that doesn't start until October 18th.

[King Postwhore]

Ben, see my link. I added that as well. 

[cramx3]

The local AEG venue, Starland Ballroom is only for fully vaxxed soon. When they made the announcement (first concert at the indoor venue since covid started is next weekend) they will allow negative test results or vaccination, but once October hits it will be vaccine only. I think that's them trying to be fair to give people the opportunity to get vaxxed before it becomes official policy.

[Ben_Jamin]

Ben, see my link. I added that as well. 

This is what it says on my venues live nation page...

We’re committed to doing everything we can to ensure we can continue bringing amazing live concerts to fans. Starting October 4th, prior to entry into Isleta Amphitheater, ALL shows will require attendees to provide proof of a negative COVID-19 test result within 72 hours of the event OR full COVID-19 vaccination (at least two weeks after final dose). Proof must be a PRINTED copy of a negative test result or vaccination, or the original vaccination card.

Select artists and shows will require these same entry protocols BEFORE October 4th. Please check the Pre-October 4 tab on this page for more information.

Please note that requirements and venue protocols, such as testing and vaccination,  are subject to change, so be sure to check back closer to your event date for the latest information.

I am fine with negative tests. As testing is the best indicator to stop the spread, yet, doesn't matter if the vaccinated can spread it as well and they're not being tested.

But since they know what's best for me more than I do, I guess I don't really need concerts to enjoy life. I guess I am not privileged to enjoy a show. As I am considered contaminated and just do not care about others and might infect you all and make you die. I'll just go be in my cave.

[King Postwhore]

Well, the best is the vaccine but I worry that they use the quick test which has shown to be incompetent compared to the normal test. Which takes 3 to 5 days to get results.

[Ben_Jamin]

Then we have this story...

https://www.kob.com/albuquerque-news/new-mexico-youth-livestock-expo-to-relocate-to-roswell/6219714/

The New Mexico Youth Livestock Expo is relocating to Roswell over Gov. Michelle Lujan Grisham’s State Fair vaccination mandate.

The expo will be held in Roswell from Sept. 14-17.

Grisham’s most recent health order mandated vaccinations for all eligible individuals at the New Mexico State Fair in Albuquerque. The result of the mandate was the exclusion of 4-H and FFA children who did not want the vaccine or did not have time to complete the two-dose vaccine cycle before the fair.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well, the best is the vaccine but I worry that they use the quick test which has shown to be incompetent compared to the normal test. Which takes 3 to 5 days to get results.

But then that also means it affects many other things that currently require testing for entry.

It doesn't matter though which test you do as long as you show a test that is negative.

[King Postwhore]

There is a lot of false negatives with the quick test. My wife works at a hospital.   It's been in the news.

[TAC]

My wife works at a hospital.   It's been in the news.

I saw that.

I believe the headline was “Queen goes to work”

[jingle.boy]

And then there’s news like this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unvaccinated-unmasked-teacher-spreads-covid-19-elementary-school-students-cdc-n1277852

This happened 3 months ago. I wonder how many dozens, hundreds or even thousands of examples like his exist?  To summarize:

Officials from the Marin County Department of Public Health initiated an investigation into the classroom outbreak on May 26, three days after the teacher reported testing positive for Covid-19. The teacher, who initially attributed symptoms to allergies, was one of only two staff members that had not been vaccinated at the elementary school.

Among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 who were ineligible for vaccination because of age were tested. Twelve tested positive for the virus, according to the report, written by county health officials and experts at the University of California's Berkeley, Davis and Santa Cruz campuses.

A majority of the students sitting in the first two rows of the classroom contracted the virus, while a minority of those sitting at the back of the class were infected. The teacher occasionally read aloud to students while unmasked, despite school requirements to mask while indoors, according to the report.

Four students from other classrooms also tested positive to Covid-19. They were all siblings of three students in the unvaccinated teacher's classroom, "and exposure was assumed to have occurred in their respective homes," the CDC reported.

Four parents of children at the school were later infected in the outbreak, according to the report. Of the infected parents, only one was unvaccinated. The vaccinated experienced symptoms including fever, chills, cough, headache and loss of smell.

Additionally, six students from a different grade also tested positive for Covid-19 after one student hosted a sleepover with two other students from the same class, the CDC reported. All students infected in this classroom were also ineligible for vaccination due to age.

[Snow Dog]

So, seems the shit has been hitting the fan here where I live:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/oregon-covid-19-patients-hospital-icu/

We’ve avoided a surge here like this since it all started last year, but with Delta and the general attitude of folks in the area about masks and vaccines, it was bound to happen. The line of vehicles to get COVID tested in your car is taking several hours to get through due to sheer volume. In Roseburg 90 minutes north of us, a dude died in the ER waiting for an ICU bed to clear up. Shit’s gotten real here, and having a toddler and now also recently a newborn in the house, it definitely has my wife and I just a wee bit on edge.

At least between COVID and the wildfire smoke filling the valley, we don’t have much inclination to leave the house save for but a few necessary trips.

[Stadler]

And then there’s news like this.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/unvaccinated-unmasked-teacher-spreads-covid-19-elementary-school-students-cdc-n1277852

This happened 3 months ago. I wonder how many dozens, hundreds or even thousands of examples like his exist?  To summarize:

Officials from the Marin County Department of Public Health initiated an investigation into the classroom outbreak on May 26, three days after the teacher reported testing positive for Covid-19. The teacher, who initially attributed symptoms to allergies, was one of only two staff members that had not been vaccinated at the elementary school.

Among the teacher’s 24 students, 22 who were ineligible for vaccination because of age were tested. Twelve tested positive for the virus, according to the report, written by county health officials and experts at the University of California's Berkeley, Davis and Santa Cruz campuses.

A majority of the students sitting in the first two rows of the classroom contracted the virus, while a minority of those sitting at the back of the class were infected. The teacher occasionally read aloud to students while unmasked, despite school requirements to mask while indoors, according to the report.

Four students from other classrooms also tested positive to Covid-19. They were all siblings of three students in the unvaccinated teacher's classroom, "and exposure was assumed to have occurred in their respective homes," the CDC reported.

Four parents of children at the school were later infected in the outbreak, according to the report. Of the infected parents, only one was unvaccinated. The vaccinated experienced symptoms including fever, chills, cough, headache and loss of smell.

Additionally, six students from a different grade also tested positive for Covid-19 after one student hosted a sleepover with two other students from the same class, the CDC reported. All students infected in this classroom were also ineligible for vaccination due to age.

Why is the vaccine the relevant part of that story?  Isn't the gist that she had symptoms and ignored them?   I think the message should be that, because how many VACCINATED people are like "oh, I have allergies because I've been vaccinated" and are doing the same thing? 

Also, why isn't a POSITIVE TEST more than 14 days ago also acceptable?   

[King Postwhore]

Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.

[Stadler]

Because even though those vaccinated can still spread covid, the percentage of it spreading is less if they were all vaccinated.  Unvaccinated people spread the virus at a higher rate. It also doubles the risk of hospitalization.

I understand that; but isn't the point about the spread?   I feel like this isn't really about science, but is yet another way to pile on and beat up those that don't share the same risk profile.

That Israeli study is important.   We're in typical U.S. "shame" mode because the unvaccinated aren't doing what we want them to, but LONG TERM, it's likely that the "COVIDIOTS" (I hate that term but I'm making a point) are going to be a key part of our long term battle against this virus.  If we get to the point of this being another form of the "common cold" (which the article, in a peer-reviewed, well accepted journal indicates is a very likely possibility) it's going to be all the pieces working together; it's not JUST going to be because of the narrative that the vaccinated people did their part in spite of the "COVIDIOTS".

[Harmony]

The way it has been explained to me is that to think about it like a simple math problem.

Vaccinated people are far less likely to even get Covid.  Less Covid = less spread

Those small percentages of folks to do get breakthrough Covid are infectious for far fewer hours when looking at infectivity rates.  So with the vaccine (I'm paraphrasing) 72 hours, without something like 14 days.  It makes sense because vaccinated people tend to have symptoms for less time too.

As others have said, we will never get to Covid zero.  But getting the vaccine is a damn good way to get to herd immunity and prevent more variants that actually could fully jump the vaccine at some point.

Vaccinated people do not seem to be aware that symptoms of Delta are more upper respiratory - cough, congestion, sore throat, headache.  Same exact symptoms as my allergies.  During our recent foundation work, my allergies to dust and molds kicked up and I canceled all my in-person activities on the outside chance it was Delta.  A few days on Claritin and all was well again.

[Stadler]

But getting the vaccine is a damn good way to get to herd immunity and prevent more variants that actually could fully jump the vaccine at some point.

No argument; I get all the information you posted that I deleted; I'm talking about that line right there above.  Whether the infection rate is 1 in 10 or 1 in 1,000, it's about the 1, not the 10 or 1,000.   We're going to get herd immunity one way or the other, and when we do it won't make a distinction between the COVIDIOTS and those on the "right side of history".   YOU obviously did the right thing for you and those around you, by cutting back your activities.  I'm saying that the message ought to be, vaccine or no, if one presents a danger, act accordingly. 

[King Postwhore]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

[lonestar]

Was having fun looking at some numbers...it's estimated that an infected person carries anywhere from 1 to 100 billion virus particles in them. The new case count from just yesterday was almost 700k worldwide. That's a lot of chances for mutation.

[Stadler]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

[King Postwhore]

Yeah but those ridiculing you can't fine you unlike a cop.  So their work means nothing because they are not the authority.

[lonestar]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"

[Adami]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"

Indeed. I also see both sides as pretty equally mocking and insulting of the other. I don't think the pro vax crowd has any monopoly on poor behavior or treatment of others here. The anti-vaxxers are just as mean spirited, cruel, mocking ,insulting, etc. I'd agree both parties need to stop as it helps no one at all. I know Stadler disagrees with this, but marginalization doesn't actually help anything.

[Ben_Jamin]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"

Bikers should wear helmets. But hardly any of them do wear helmets. Why not ask them all why they are not wearing helmets and they're dumb for not wearing helmets. Go to Sturgis and say that out loud.

As Stads said...it's risk and people take risks I consider stupid all the time. But I don't call them names for it or wish for them to die or to get hurt for doing that act of risk I consider dumb that I do not evaluate myself taking that risk as that person does.

And as Stads also pointed out. If it's about spread, why are the vaccinated not being required to test, and what would happen if an event happened and no unvaccinated were present, yet people still got Covid-19.

Kiss, a band that took so many precautions, and still Paul Stanley gets Covid-19. If they were to have tested, that person who tested positive wouldn't have been able to show up for work and likely Paul Stanley would not have tested positive. Unless, he got it from another place that was not part of the concert, like at the hotel room.

[soupytwist]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations

We do in the UK.

[Stadler]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"

Respectfully, that's the sort of typical focus on the most extreme aspects to make a point I'm talking about. Mocking them, ridiculing them, marginalizing them.  I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it.  NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things.  Now, they may or may not be "correct" in terms of the hard science for their rationale, but they DO have a rationale that goes beyond "Jesus is my vaccine".   I can - we can - disagree with them without disparaging their character.

Every single one of us has (or is) doing something that is "stupid" objectively, but that we've made a quasi-rational determination - or maybe not even that - to disregard the common wisdom.  And some of those things harm other people. 

[El Barto]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop. 

We didn't? Texas cops apparently never got that message. Down here they can even arrest you for it.

In any case, the seatbelt analogy doesn't work. There's no secondary risk if you choose to be a crash test dummy.

[hefdaddy42]

I know three people that aren't vaccinated, and one that is... I don't if "regretting" is the right word, but feels like she really didn't have a choice in the matter and isn't happy about it.  NOT ONE OF THEM is saying any of those things. 

You're the lucky one.  Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law.  They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts.  Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts. 

[Stadler]

Wearing seatbelts saved lives.  Not all but more were alive because of it.  Same goes for the vaccine.  It may not stop all from the virus but it will lessen the amount who get it.  Also an added factor that it lessens hospital visits. Right now, most hospitals don't have the room.

No doubt.  I understand all of that; and some of it is unfortunate.   But with seatbelts, we also didn't lose sight of perspective; we didn't (in theory, anyway) allow cops to pull you over specifically for seat belt violations, but only as an additional charge if there was another, legit reason for the stop.    We didn't go around ridiculing those that didn't wear seatbelts, and we didn't make "cute" names for them to mock them into submission.  We didn't refuse to hang out with people that didn't wear a seatbelt, or any of the other things that people just assume are fair game because, as I've been saying, they choose a different path than us.

But they are retroactively using seat belt/helmet laws as a way of mocking the new generation as 'soft', saying the kids these days aren't as tough, are coddled, and unprepared for life because they were wrapped in bubble wrap and recieved participation trophies and all that bullshit. It's the same rhetoric a lot of them are currently using for the vaccine. "I have an immune system, I don't need it"...."If I get it, I get it...it's just a flu anyways" and my personal favorite "Jesus is my vaccine"

Indeed. I also see both sides as pretty equally mocking and insulting of the other. I don't think the pro vax crowd has any monopoly on poor behavior or treatment of others here. The anti-vaxxers are just as mean spirited, cruel, mocking ,insulting, etc. I'd agree both parties need to stop as it helps no one at all. I know Stadler disagrees with this, but marginalization doesn't actually help anything.

??

[bosk1]

You're the lucky one.  Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law.  They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts. 

Your experience is pretty different than mine.  I can't claim I know many who are "anti."  But of those I do know, some fit that description, some are politely resistant or hesitant for reasons they choose to mostly keep to themselves unless asked directly, and some fall somewhere in between.  And I suspect, but cannot prove, that there are others who are "anti" or hesitant that I am unaware of because they politely keep their position to themselves.  But in any case, the bigger question I have is relative to:

Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts. 

What do you mean "does not work."  Are you saying that only those people that agree with you or who you can convince/persuade (i.e., those upon whom your attempt to reason "works") deserve a loving attitude or encouragement?  Don't all people believe that regardless of what they believe or how they act?  Or to put it bluntly and adopt your terminology, if we withhold loving attitudes or encouragement from those we deem to be "assholes," aren't we being "assholes" as well?

[hefdaddy42]

You're the lucky one.  Every single anti-vax person I know (and that number is higher than I like) is a raging asshole about it, an insufferable bastard, including my brother in law.  They believe whatever stupid shit some idiot posts on Tik Tok, and spread that crap all over their social media accounts. 

Your experience is pretty different than mine.  I can't claim I know many who are "anti."  But of those I do know, some fit that description, some are politely resistant or hesitant for reasons they choose to mostly keep to themselves unless asked directly, and some fall somewhere in between.  And I suspect, but cannot prove, that there are others who are "anti" or hesitant that I am unaware of because they politely keep their position to themselves.  But in any case, the bigger question I have is relative to:

Loving attitudes and encouragement do not work on these people, neither does trying to reason with them or giving them facts or places to get facts. 

What do you mean "does not work."  Are you saying that only those people that agree with you or who you can convince/persuade (i.e., those upon whom your attempt to reason "works") deserve a loving attitude or encouragement?  Don't all people believe that regardless of what they believe or how they act?  Or to put it bluntly and adopt your terminology, if we withhold loving attitudes or encouragement from those we deem to be "assholes," aren't we being "assholes" as well?

Well, no.

I was talking about specifically this subject.  Trying to engage with them in any kind of really positive way (like Stadler wants me to do) on this topic is a non-starter.  It doesn't get you anywhere.

So, if the topic just doesn't come up, then we're cool.  I don't judge a person entire on one topic (even a topic about which I feel very strongly). 

[lonestar]

I'd say of the anti vaxxers I know, about half are assholes, and half are just kind of smart assed-shitty-holier than thou about it. I straight up treat them with contempt, and have no qualms about it.

[bosk1]

Not surprising.

[ProfessorPeart]

We all just need to take some livestock de-wormer, sit in a circle and sing kumbaya. That will make covid just go away.