Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Ben_Jamin]

... I don't consider wearing a mask to be a Constitutional violation (though the CHOICE to wear a mask is).

Genuine question... how is the choice to wear a mask a Constitutional violation?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding your wording.  Are you suggesting mask mandates are a violation of constitutional rights?

My bad for being sloppy; it's not that the CHOICE is the violation;  it's the taking away of the choice that MAY be a violation.  Yes, I am suggesting that there is a Constitutional argument - the right to privacy, the same theory that makes abortions legal - against mandates.  I'm not saying it's a GOOD argument, just that it is an issue (though the argument is FAR stronger for vaccines than masks).

My take is that everyone has a choice... there are simply consequences to their choices.  In this regard, no Gestapo is regulating mask usage.

No one is having their choice to wear a seatbelt taken away, you just get a ticket if you're caught.

As long as the "consequences" are fair and reasonable.  I have a problem when the "consequences" are Draconian in nature and don't really allow for a choice.   When the "Mob" is in charge of determining those "consequences", the chances of fairness drop exponentially.   This gets even worse as time and distance intervene (I'm thinking of those cases where people are today bearing the brunt of "consequences" unilaterally imposed retroactively on events/actions/choices made 10, 20 or even more years ago.)

Generally speaking, I agree with you. You and I have almost always been on the same side here, and in this case I might even go so far as to say that the consequences are harsh enough to preclude it from being an actual "choice." Not being able to send your kid to school, a school you've paid for, crosses a line in my book. At the same time, this is a line that has existed for a century. Certain vaccinations are required to attend schools, public or private, and we've accepted this. In fact, almost all of these mandates have been supported by the courts. I don't see this as the mob dictating actions and eliminating choice. I see it simply  matter of public health, which has long been the government's domain.

Seems to me, at least insofar as schools go, some sort of intervention would make sense. Have some calm and nonthreatening Dr Phil type explain it to parents in simple, undisputed terms and statistics. Here's how many people have received the vaccine and here are the numbers of people who've died and/or grown third appendages as a result. Here are the number of people who've contracted Covid, the number who have died, and the number of those who were vaccinated and unvaccinated. Really, the numbers speak for themselves here. If you can't get over it after that, you should probably just homeschool your kid. In truth you're already pretty likely to screw your kid up either way. The world needs ditch-diggers, and for my part, I'll add titty-dancers to that time-honored witticism. I'm sure Ted Knight would approve.

The key here is the term "accepted". Governments do things because the people accept it. Look at China, and look at Nazi Germany. No matter how we in the future see it now as "bad", those people did see it as "good" and therefore "accepted" whatever their rulers/governments demanded of them.

What we have here is the people not wanting to "accept" and this is the consequence of when the people choose not to "accept" and see it as government coercing their balls to the wall. And the government demanding justification for their decision to impose these regulations and mandate orders is the choice they made and they have to face the consequences of the people "accepting" not to trust or abide by the government.


I find it very fascinating...

[Ben_Jamin]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Which the consequences of that decision means the people will end up being forced to figure out other ways to continue living their life.

This is a disruption of a lifestyle, and some do not have that plan set for this purpose for, what if you get denied access to the privileged world.


I personally find it pretty damn interesting how those crying privileged while supremacy rhetoric do not see the vaccine passports as an issue of said privilege? Because this is what it is. As George Carlin said, "We do not have rights. We have privileges."

[hefdaddy42]

People always have a choice.

Do they, though? 

Yes.

[King Postwhore]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Which the consequences of that decision means the people will end up being forced to figure out other ways to continue living their life.

This is a disruption of a lifestyle, and some do not have that plan set for this purpose for, what if you get denied access to the privileged world.


I personally find it pretty damn interesting how those crying privileged while supremacy rhetoric do not see the vaccine passports as an issue of said privilege? Because this is what it is. As George Carlin said, "We do not have rights. We have privileges."

You know how to stop the disruption in your life?  Get the vaccine.

[jingle.boy]

The opening of schools here in Florida has been a disaster. It was predictable. Many schools already had to close. Tens of thousands are quarantined. Sick kids brought it home to parents. It's quite a dilemma. I wish I had an answer or a solution but there isn't one.

On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.

I'm not terribly concerned about a 12 Monkeys or The Stand-level event, but I've said for a few months that there will be a 'US variant'.  The virus ain't sittin around whining like Archie Bunker that the vaccine is bad for business.  It'll evolve and mutate.  It's inevitable.  Just how much it does is the question.

Hence why I'm still fairly cautious about everything.  I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'.  mmmmm, no thank you very much.  Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution.  Distancing still matters, a lot.  I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.

[Stadler]

The opening of schools here in Florida has been a disaster. It was predictable. Many schools already had to close. Tens of thousands are quarantined. Sick kids brought it home to parents. It's quite a dilemma. I wish I had an answer or a solution but there isn't one.

On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.

But recognize, the major risk of a variant isn't because of the relatively minor segment of Americans that haven't been vaccinated.  Sure that increases the odds of a variant, but there will NEVER, under ANY circumstances, be 100% vaccination in the U.S.  Even if we were, the remainder of the world is 25% (two doses), and something like 35% (one dose).    The variant is going to happen one way or the other, and if the variant is vaccine-resistant, it's going to wreck havoc regardless.  We have far more risk of a deadly variant from the WORLD condition than we do from the FLORIDA condition.

[TAC]

I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'.  mmmmm, no thank you very much.  Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution.  Distancing still matters, a lot.  I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.

I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?

[cramx3]

I'm not anywhere close to being as morbid as some of emtee's thoughts, but I can understand (or at least best try to) from the perspective of being so close to a very bad situation right now.

Even after I kind of ripped on Fauci, his latest comments about having "control" over the virus by spring should give some ease that we aren't that far away from potentially being in a much better spot. 

Personally, I think in another month or two we will already be in a better spot.  I'm just not sure what the next wave will bring, and I'm pretty sure we will see another wave come the winter.  It's just a matter of how bad it will be.  I'm not terribly hopeful covid will mutate into something less deadly like Spanish flu, but I am more hopeful that we gain enough natural immunity and vaccinations to slow this down to it being more close to the flu in terms of being seasonal and not too disruptive.

I do think Fauci's changing the words from herd immunity to control is just another example of what we kind of already know in that this is going to be an endemic.  Covid is never going away.

[emtee]

Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.

[Stadler]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Ever been to Philly?   Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility.   So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility.   Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice:  I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke.   Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer.   That's not an unrealistic requirement.   

And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here.  The mechanism matters.  If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that.  AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed.  Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house".  That's not a choice any more.

On a practical level, though, Bart is correct.  There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical.  (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)

[TAC]

On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.

I think his concerns are natural. The goalposts keep moving on this. There's a real feeling of "When will this ever end?" It's a mindfuck for sure, and you being knee deep in it daily can no doubt make you crazy. I mean, not crazy but...having those brutal thoughts.

[Stadler]

Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.

No need; I get it, I was really talking to the group not you.

As for you, I feel for you.   It's not always as easy as a "science" or "political science" decision/discussion.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yes, Stads, I understand. I didn't think my post indicated a correlation. My concern is simply that the virus wins the battle against humanity. Like I said though, it's probably just been a lousy day for me, in a series of lousy days and it impacts my mood.

Yup. Humans can try and control the world and Nature. And everytime, Nature proves us wrong.

On top of this, the CEO of Pfizer has said he's concerned that eventually a variant will emerge that is resistant to the vaccine. After almost 2 years of this, with no end in sight, the inner-doom that resides in the recesses of my psyche wonders if this will be a near- extinction event for humanity. Will it eventually wipe out a huge number of humans. Or maybe I'm just having another brutal day at work and my thoughts are polluted by it.

I think his concerns are natural. The goalposts keep moving on this. There's a real feeling of "When will this ever end?" It's a mindfuck for sure, and you being knee deep in it daily can no doubt make you crazy. I mean, not crazy but...having those brutal thoughts.

And this has caused many, many, humans to have a severe mental crises. Our mentality has been tested hard and some just can not bear and unfortunately, the consequence of this is many committed suicide or have attempted suicide. It's caused a lot of mental despair.

But, also, we have to always remember that this is what being human is. We humans ALL have emotions, and despair is but one of the many that this pandemic realized into people thoughts as people began to fear, death of themselves or another they care about.

[TAC]

And this has caused many, many, humans to have a severe mental crises. Our mentality has been tested hard and some just can not bear and unfortunately, the consequence of this is many committed suicide or have attempted suicide. It's caused a lot of mental despair.

But, also, we have to always remember that this is what being human is. We humans ALL have emotions, and despair is but one of the many that this pandemic realized into people thoughts as people began to fear, death of themselves or another they care about.

I obviously feel for anyone that lost a loved one, and couldn't grieve properly , whether that meant visiting the sick or have a proper funeral. And also for those who may have lost a job.

This is why I think it's vital to leave the fucking house. Go out to dinner. Live your life. People are acting like going out is like jumping into a billabong with a bunch of crocodiles. We need as much normalcy as possible.

And if you lost a career job, and maybe your industry hasn't opened back up yet for opportunities, there's a million fucking places hiring. Might be part time, might be below "your rate", but what's the alternative?

[King Postwhore]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Ever been to Philly?   Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility.   So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility.   Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice:  I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke.   Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer.   That's not an unrealistic requirement.   

And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here.  The mechanism matters.  If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that.  AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed.  Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house".  That's not a choice any more.

On a practical level, though, Bart is correct.  There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical.  (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)

I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt.  At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life.  The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out.  Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.

[jingle.boy]

I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'.  mmmmm, no thank you very much.  Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution.  Distancing still matters, a lot.  I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.

I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?

I wouldn't say I am (or the jingle.family is) afraid to leave the house.  jingle.daughter works as a counsellor in a camp with mostly under-12 year olds.  Tonight she's going out for an end-of-season bruuhah with her peers.  I went and saw one movie in the theater already, and another one next week.  I've (we've) just readjusted some of the priorities as to what's necessary given the state of the pandemic.   

I've worked from home since early 2010, so this isn't a complete shock to my system.  At this point, spending 5 hours in a room with 2 people that flew in from Vancouver, 2 from Ottawa, and 4 others locally - all of which I don't know what their exposure may have been in the last 10 days,  just for the sake of conducting a meeting that is just as easily done virtually... my calculus is that it's not necessary.  Ontario is in the midst of another spike, and I'd rather regret not getting together with people just yet, than regret that I did and caught (and spread) the 'rona.

It's a balance afaic

[Stadler]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Ever been to Philly?   Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility.   So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility.   Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice:  I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke.   Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer.   That's not an unrealistic requirement.   

And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here.  The mechanism matters.  If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that.  AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed.  Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house".  That's not a choice any more.

On a practical level, though, Bart is correct.  There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical.  (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)

I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt.  At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life.  The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out.  Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.

I'm not arguing with you; I understand.  I'm just making the point about the level of "choices".  Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot".   The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.

[TAC]

  I went and saw one movie in the theater already, and another one next week.  I've (we've) just readjusted some of the priorities as to what's necessary given the state of the pandemic.   

I actually happy to read this.

  At this point, spending 5 hours in a room with 2 people that flew in from Vancouver, 2 from Ottawa, and 4 others locally - all of which I don't know what their exposure may have been in the last 10 days,  just for the sake of conducting a meeting that is just as easily done virtually... my calculus is that it's not necessary. 

Well in this specific example, I cannot argue with you.

  It's a balance afaic

This is true.

[lonestar]

I've recently had work colleagues suggest organizing an upcoming planning workshop as 'in-person'.  mmmmm, no thank you very much.  Vaccination is but one tool in this fight, not a panacea solution.  Distancing still matters, a lot.  I'm sick and fucking tired of staring at the same three monitors I've been looking at 5 days a week, 10 hours a day for the last 16 months, but I sure as shit will take that over a boardroom only to come home with a wee case of COVID that I pass on to the jingle.family.

I read this and I must say..I don't know what to say. I cannot argue with you for playing it safe. But my wife and I have worked right along, in person with other people. At what point does it cross over from being safe to being full on afraid to leave the house?

It does raise an interesting quandary. I too have been working in person at two jobs, 60 to 70 hours a week, one of them at a fucking grocery store. And while I still mask in accordance with the local mandates, the moment those mandates were lifted a bit back, the mask came off. How will the 'covid exit strategy' differ be for people working from home as opposed to people who have been working in person the whole time? what will the long term effects of those two different scenarios be on the two focus groups? Psychologists and sociologists are going to have tons to study in the upcoming decades from this whole thing.

[El Barto]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Ever been to Philly?   Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility.   So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility.   Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice:  I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke.   Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer.   That's not an unrealistic requirement.   

And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here.  The mechanism matters.  If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that.  AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed.  Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house".  That's not a choice any more.

On a practical level, though, Bart is correct.  There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical.  (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)

Not sure why the government matters here. If every business wants to fire the unvaccinated, so be it. Freedom and capitalism, right? If the government wants to require vaccines for its employees, so be it. I'm not sure why that's an issue, either. Yes, in the aggregate it eliminates the choice others are referring to, but I'm not sure that's our concern as a society.

[hunnus2000]

I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.

Would you all get the app?

[lonestar]

I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.

Would you all get the app?

Already got it for California. It's a bit buggy still, so I have access to my Kaiser record through their app as well on me. The CA app is just a QR code that links to my covid vaccine record. I have zero issues with telling anyone and everyone I'm vaxxed, that aspect of my medical record is an open book.

[El Barto]

I've asked this before but now that we're into it a little more: if there were an application that is provided by the State confirming your vaccine status, would you get it to fully participate in society? Now that we have full FDA approval we're going to see more vaccine mandates.

Would you all get the app?

Very likely such an app would be illegal in Texas.

[Adami]

Yea. NY has one too.

Oddly, the only place to ever ask for proof of vaccine for me was Krispy Kreme. And that was just cause a free donut was involved.

[ProfessorPeart]

My employer only gave us a digital vax card. I took it and loaded it up to my Google Drive so I can access it any time on my phone. I'm already ready. If an app comes along, yes, I'd be in.

And, as expected, got the first of what I expect to be many emails from the school district. 6 full days in and positive cases in 2 of the 3 schools already. My sons is not one of them, but I know it's coming.

[jingle.boy]

I'm not arguing with you; I understand.  I'm just making the point about the level of "choices".  Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot".   The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.

Well, as you are often quick to point out, there's no constitutional right to beer and wings.  No shirt, no shoes, no vax, no service.  I'm curious ... how much of a ruckus is raised at the 'no shirt, no service' issue?  How do people in the US get away with "no guns allowed on premises" without people losing their shit - hell, guns *are* a constitutional right? 

I know .... your response is going to be along the lines of 'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'.  And maybe it is.  But it's still a choice someone is making of their own volition.

Some may not think the consequence of no vax no service is 'fair'.  *I* (and many others) have no problem with it.

[ProfessorPeart]

'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'.

Going there again? That would be messy. 

[XeRocks81]

'getting a vax is different than putting a shit on'.

Going there again? That would be messy. 

let’s leave our various fetishes out of this 

[Ben_Jamin]

So when it comes to smoking, they finally figured out that 2nd hand smoke hurts other non smokers so what did they do?  Places now do not allow smoking inside.  So the consequence Chad is talking about is that places will soon say, no vaccination, no eating at our restaurant. Not being able to eat out will be the consequence.

Ever been to Philly?   Seriously; in the City, if you get more than 10% of your revenue from food, there is no smoking in the facility.   So you walk outside, and there are invariably 5 people puffing away on the sidewalk in front of the facility.   Which is fine, which is to say, there is a choice:  I'm sitting at the bar, enjoying a Miller High-Life and if I want to smoke, I put a coaster over the bottle - so I don't get ruffied - and I walk out to the sidewalk and smoke.   Maybe one of my friends will come with me, maybe not. Then I go back and finish my beer.   That's not an unrealistic requirement.   

And bear in mind I'm being somewhat theoretical here.  The mechanism matters.  If any one business wants to say "vaccine or your fired", fair enough, it's their business they can do that.  AS LONG as I can go to OTHER business and be employed.  Once the guv'mint gets involved, it reduces/eliminates the choice to "get vaccine" or "starve and lose my house".  That's not a choice any more.

On a practical level, though, Bart is correct.  There IS a difference between the practical and the theoretical.  (FYI, I'm not as wishy-washy as I sound; I'm just trying to not write a novel here.)

I completely understand but we have moved to this fully in all restaurants these days and we adapt.  At some point people will have to decide what they want in their life.  The freedom and not going out or the vaccine and eating out.  Just like I want a smoke so do I go outside and not smoke and continue to eat/drink.

I'm not arguing with you; I understand.  I'm just making the point about the level of "choices".  Me foregoing a cigarette for an hour, or having to go outside to smoke it and return is not the same level as injecting antibodies into your system for the same. I can't go outside after and "remove the shot".   The former is at best an inconvenience (though, no shit, I had friends that would call ahead on vacations to plan out which places would let them smoke!), the latter is something more. There's no compromise position with the vaccine.

That's a great way to explain it.

People that take things against their will may end up with thoughts of regret, of remorse, and even spite. These emotions can have an affect on a persons mental health as they face these thoughts of regret, remorse, and spite.

I guarantee there are people out there that do have a feeling of spite, some regret, and even remorse. There are also some, that do not feel happy about taking it, but only did it because it was required of them.

It's a really big "psychological mind manipulation" (In quotes as it's the best way I could describe what I mean at this time), which is interesting as the pandemic sort of forced this "psychological mind manipulation" by forcing all us humans to rethink how we connect with one another, and to assess what we value in life. I am actually very interested if there are studies and actual research being done about the mental effects the pandemic has had on our current modern day society of the world. Especially in the ways I mentioned of the many emotions people are feeling after taking the vaccines.

[King Postwhore]

Then they haven't done their homework or don't want to for reasons that baffle me.  The only ones who shouldn't take it is when your doctor tells you not to.

It's simple, you choose not taking the vaccine knowing you are going to be restricted in where you can go.  You made that decision,  don't complain about it now.

[King Postwhore]

 

[KevShmev]

I see Krispy Kreme is offering 2 free donuts to anyone who comes in and shows their vaccination card.

"Come celebrate trying to stay healthy by eating one of the worst things you can ever put in your body!!"

 

[King Postwhore]

 

[Anguyen92]

I see Krispy Kreme is offering 2 free donuts to anyone who comes in and shows their vaccination card.

"Come celebrate trying to stay healthy by eating one of the worst things you can ever put in your body!!"

 

Welp.  That post alone gives me pause for thought thinking if I want to go to Krispy Kreme and take advantage of that.

[KevShmev]

You wouldn't know it by looking at me (5'10", 180 lbs now), but I have eaten more than my fair share of donuts over the years, but Krispy Kreme is not the place I'd go to for one these days.