Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Stadler]

In short. Some people's concerns has to do with the advancement of technology and some don't see any good coming from it.

As opposed to all the 'good' that comes from leaving yourself more exposed to a global pandemic inducing virus??

This advancement was worked on in labs for decades.  People think the vaccine was rushed.  They just had to tweak it and test results first to make sure it would work against the virus.

That's true, but it's also fair to say that people may or may not have been aware of that.  I'm no idiot, I'm pro-vaccine, but I didn't know the extent of the research until I looked into it myself.  And this wouldn't be the first time that something in the lab didn't expose other risks when in the real world.   Microwave ovens were discovered in what, the '50's and didn't get into popular use until the 70's or something like that.

[King Postwhore]

It's been on the the major networks and if this dummy know it, shouldn't others?    I think it's the old, "Hear what you want to hear to fit your narrative" for most people.  We've all done it.

[jingle.boy]

I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.

If it causes cancer, of course it does.  The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not.  There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)

Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy   

[Stadler]

I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.

If it causes cancer, of course it does.  The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not.  There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)

Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy   

Right after windmills. It's coming.

[Chino]

I don't disagree with the premise of your first statement there, Bill ... but it's not a terribly sound analogy.
Using a cellphone around someone doesn't represent a known (albeit, potential) public health risk.

If it causes cancer, of course it does.  The "wifi" tendrils don't know if you are the user or not.  There might be a proximity issue, but that's the same with COVID.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. (my standard answer to shaky 'if/then' statements)

Let me know when WIFI is declared a global pandemic, then I'll grant you the validity of the analogy   

Right after windmills. It's coming.

Windmills are going to be what does humanity in. Not only does the sound they emit cause cancer, but they kill ALL the birds. They can also ruin the ocean views for people with beachfront property. I hope all those people on Martha's Vineyard are able to cope!

[emtee]

Florida reports over 16K new daily cases to CDC Tuesday.

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-numbers/covid-in-florida-16000-cases-vaccine/67-511b337f-0ae9-4694-b927-5dffb346ae5a

[cramx3]

Florida reports over 16K new daily cases to CDC Tuesday.

https://www.wtsp.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-numbers/covid-in-florida-16000-cases-vaccine/67-511b337f-0ae9-4694-b927-5dffb346ae5a

Not surprising.  A state that hasn't been strong on vaccination and a state that wasn't hit so hard in the first few waves is now getting hit hard due to the more contagious version of the virus.  Similar to how India was doing fine until Delta. 

In NJ our governor has stated he is currently not going to mandate the masks again.... unless things continue to get worse.  So I'm curious how long he will wait it out because my thoughts are the cases will go down soon as we plateau in the next couple weeks.  Most of the state is not considered to be a high virus area though according to the CDC (apparently, my county is though)

[Ben_Jamin]

These confirmed cases....

Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely,  then required to get tested and coming back positive?

Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?

What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?

[Grappler]

These confirmed cases....

Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely,  then required to get tested and coming back positive?

Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?

What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?

 

A positive test is a positive test.  Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure.  Both of them tested positive for COVID. 

I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.

[Ben_Jamin]

These confirmed cases....

Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely,  then required to get tested and coming back positive?

Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?

What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?

 

A positive test is a positive test.  Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure.  Both of them tested positive for COVID. 

I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.

The issue is spread. And these people would've been asymptomatically spreading it if they had not went to the doctor and gotten tested that way.

As it is, vaccinated people can still catch and spread it. Hence the reason for the CDC new recommendation for vaccinated people to wear masks indoors now.

So what's the point of a vaccination card and access if those vaccinated could still catch and spread the virus.

Unless I am missing something about why the CDC said for vaccinated people to also mask up indoors?...

As Is said, the vaccine is only to prevent "YOU" from getting any severe symptoms of the virus and possibly dying.

Apparently these vaccines won't help stop the spread as they thought, because what else is the reason for the CDC vaccinated must also wear masks indoors recommendation if not to stop the spread.


Vaccines do work, but not in the way people think they do. They're remedies as all drugs are. They can possibly cure and defeat the disease, so the sickness won't intrude on our rights to life, liberty and happiness.

Which is what it's about right. The right for the other to not have their life, liberties and happiness intruded by this disease.

[Stadler]

These confirmed cases....

Are the people that are testing positive going to the doctor for Covid symptoms, or are they going in for something else entirely,  then required to get tested and coming back positive?

Wouldn't that play into the intent of people by them only being tested because they went to the clinic or doctor for something else entirely, and wouldn't have went if not for that purpose and wouldn't have known they had Covid?

What if some of these people in Florida went to their annual check ups and got tested and came back positive?

 

A positive test is a positive test.  Not sure how someone sitting at home that is symptomatic is any different than someone going to the doctor for a colonoscopy and getting tested prior to the procedure.  Both of them tested positive for COVID. 

I'm so tired of the nitpicking of COVID data and deaths, as if the government is trying to hoodwink people.

If the data is valid it will survive the nitpicking.  If we go back to the stated premise for the restrictions - the avoidance of overwhelming our healthcare system - then the data about symptomatic and asymptomatic cases (and the relative vaccination statuses of the two groups) is very relevant information.   One might argue if 100% of COVID cases are asymptomatic, there is no need for any increased protocols (they're not, and I'm not, so don't panic, but it's a fair question). 

I'm so tired of the dismissal of any point that doesn't follow the narrative.  .  (Kidding).

[Chino]

My company just pushed our September 13th return to office date back "at least a month" with no new date formally declared yet.

[hunnus2000]

And the place I work has outbreaks in all buildings. It is recommended that we mask up when walking around the building.

BTW, they are not communicating the number of outbreaks like they did when we were at home. 

[emtee]

17,589 new cases yesterday. Our facility, along with every other hospital in Central Florida is at level BLACK. There are no levels worse than black.

[Chino]

17,589 new cases yesterday. Our facility, along with every other hospital in Central Florida is at level BLACK. There are no levels worse than black.

[ReaperKK]

I shouldn't laugh but damn that was a well place gif Chino

[Stadler]

It's behind a paywall, but there's a great article in today's New York Times "The Morning" about the COVID virus and the mysteries that surround it.   The "mysteries" are really those ways that the virus hasn't behaved in accordance with our expectations of human control.   The fact is, it DOESN'T always respond directly to changed in human behavior.

- India:  where the Delta variant was first identified, cases have plummeted over the past two months, and a similar thing in Britain, but with no clear impetus for these drops.

- U.S.: cases started dropping in January, before widespread vaccinations took hold, and there is no discernible change in American's COVID attitudes or behaviors to explain the drop.

- In March and April, the Alpha variant caused cases to spike in the upper Midwest and Canada, but it did NOT spread to the rest of America, despite expert fears.

- This spring, caseloads were NOT consistently higher in those parts of the U.S. that relaxed masking and distancing measures, as compared to those that kept them in place.  (This is the Florida/California comparison I make a lot).

- Large swaths of Africa and Asia have not experienced the size of the outbreaks that Europe and the U.S. have seen.

The conclusion of Michael Osterholm, head of an infectious disease research center at the University of Minnesota maintains that, other than the vaccine itself, we should have a LOT more humility in terms of what we as humans are doing to "control" this essentially "uncontrollable" virus.   Sure we can take precautions, but to presume they are hard and fast as cause and effect is not accurately supported by what we've seen.

[jingle.boy]

Protip... to get articles behind a paywall, just go to http://archive.is.  I don't think posting this is a violation of any DTF forum rules, but if it is, my apologies in advance.

[lonestar]

Protip... to get articles behind a paywall, just go to http://archive.is.  I don't think posting this is a violation of any DTF forum rules, but if it is, my apologies in advance.

*ducks to avoid banhammer*

[Harmony]

Jingle 

I wonder about this article though...

In India — where the Delta variant was first identified and caused a huge outbreak — cases have plunged over the past two months. A similar drop may now be underway in Britain. There is no clear explanation for these declines.

I'd love to see how David Leonhardt came to the conclusion of that last sentence.

Wouldn't natural immunity account for that?  I'm no ID specialist but I have read numerous experts' opinions on India.  I'll try to paraphrase from memory but during the initial outbreaks, India didn't seem to have a large impact from the virus but this was likely because the spread was among the lower castes who wouldn't not have had much access to testing and medical care.  So the truth is, the actual impact was not known.

Then Delta comes and suddenly the whole populace of the country is impacted quite severely.  Undoubtedly many of those severe cases also came with scores of less severe cases thus natural immunity becomes a large factor in the current plunge.

I guess my quibble - and it is only a quibble - with these types of articles is that the author seems to draw conclusions that may or may not be accurate or not account for all the variables.

Covid is maddening in its unpredictability.  I think these variables are only beginning to be unpacked.  I'm also certain there will be more surprises to come.

[emtee]

What I'm concerned with is the breakthrough cases. I'm aware of more than 20 just from employees. Some were not super sick, others were very sick but not hospitalized. The CDC only reports breakthrough cases that require hospitalization or death. We're missing 14 nurses today. All were vaccinated. The truck driver that brings our supplies had Pfizer in April and got hammered 3 weeks ago. He missed 2 weeks of work. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but I am genuinely concerned and think this might be more of an issue than anyone is willing to talk about.

[jingle.boy]

What I'm concerned with is the breakthrough cases. I'm aware of more than 20 just from employees. Some were not super sick, others were very sick but not hospitalized. The CDC only reports breakthrough cases that require hospitalization or death. We're missing 14 nurses today. All were vaccinated. The truck driver that brings our supplies had Pfizer in April and got hammered 3 weeks ago. He missed 2 weeks of work. I'm not trying to be hyperbolic but I am genuinely concerned and think this might be more of an issue than anyone is willing to talk about.

Dayum.  This is indeed concerning.  IMO, it's only a matter of time before all these breakthrough cases morph into something more than just a little (or a lot) sick. 

Slight uptick in cases here in Ontario over the last few days.  That's the first ring of the warning bell - that most people don't want to listen or pay attention to.

[Ben_Jamin]

Time for a booster...

[Stadler]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I also don't really accept coincidences.  It's hard to not read that and think "huh, setting the stage for another round of mandates!"   I try hard not to be cynical, but it's starting to be the default setting when it comes to this stuff. 

[emtee]

Wow. Very troubling if true. Pretty much matches what I'm personally seeing on the front lines though. Honestly, I don't know what the hell to think any think any more.

[Chino]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/cdc-study-shows-74percent-of-people-infected-in-massachusetts-covid-outbreak-were-fully-vaccinated.html

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I also don't really accept coincidences.  It's hard to not read that and think "huh, setting the stage for another round of mandates!"   I try hard not to be cynical, but it's starting to be the default setting when it comes to this stuff.

Ooof. I'm going to a concert tonight in Bridgeport (that new Hartford Health amphitheater) and I'm low-key a bit concerned. I purposely picked seats in the back row to be above and behind everyone else, and I think I'm actually going to mask up.

As for the mandate thing... I mean, if this thing mutates to the point where only a quarter of vaccinated people are protected, and the virus has begins to spread more aggressively, they have to at the very least be floated. I don't think a lockdown like last year is in the cards without their being legit riots. I don't know what the solution is. Fingers crossed for whatever comes.

[Stadler]

The one thing about that article is that there didn't seem to be any raw numbers, just percentages.   If 3 out of 4 people broke through, that's 75%, but that's not the same thing as 75,000 out of 100,000, statistically. 

And that doesn't jive with the notion that the vast majority - if not all - of recent deaths/hospitalizations are of non-vaccinated people.

Again, no conspiracy guy, but it doesn't add up and in the minds of those that are more prone to conspiracies, this is fertile ground.

[ErHaO]

I don't know how your government agencies communicate in the US, but over here the general communications clearly state vaccination is for protection against (severe) illness rather than prevention of infection.

Chances of severe illness are significantly smaller (around the 90% for Pfizer and Moderna, I believe. We stopped with Astrazenica and Jansen early on) for the fully vaccinated people. That group is way less likely to clog hospitals and drive the necessity for measures. But that does not mean they won't get ill.

Science thus far indicates the delta variant is bad news. And really affects the numbers we are seeing as well. It is not unreasonable to believe this variant would've been an even larger distaster if it struck pre-vaccine times. Unfortunately, it also seems to be a bigger burden on younger people as well.

[Dave_Manchester]

Yeah, those types of numbers and statistics aren't as alarming as they can at first appear. As more and more people become vaccinated a higher proportion of everything will involve people who are vaccinated. It's simple ratios. 6 months from now the Daily Mail (British tabloid) will be (accurately) running headlines that 98% of suicides were among Covid vaccinated people.

What we do know is that people who are vaccinated are far less likely to suffer greatly, and as regards lockdowns, if everyone who can safely be vaccinated gets vaccinated then the likelihood of serious illness overwhelming the capacity of hospitals is much lower. Massachusetts may have a lot of cases now but the daily death count is still tumbling since the vaccines came in:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/massachusetts/

It's not about preventing cases (it looks like we're never going to do this now; this is just a virus we're going to have to live with), it's about preventing deaths and cases so severe that they require hospitalisation.

[Skeever]

That is just what I was going to say. It is alarming at first pass until you consider how many people are vaccinated in Massachusetts. And there are other factors I'm sure that go into those statistics which aren't obvious immediately on the surface. I will say 4 hospitalizations out of 400 cases is pretty damn good, I'll take those chances any day of the week. And it's no deaths.

[Ben_Jamin]

The one thing about that article is that there didn't seem to be any raw numbers, just percentages.   If 3 out of 4 people broke through, that's 75%, but that's not the same thing as 75,000 out of 100,000, statistically. 

And that doesn't jive with the notion that the vast majority - if not all - of recent deaths/hospitalizations are of non-vaccinated people.

Again, no conspiracy guy, but it doesn't add up and in the minds of those that are more prone to conspiracies, this is fertile ground.

This is that "Dark Ironic Hilarity" I was talking about earlier in regards to Nature showing humans we do not dominate the world, even though many believe and think we do.

This is why it's still good to be asking these questions, regardless of how stupid they may sound. This proves to us that we don't know until it happens. The hard slap of reality of how harsh life truly is and how Nature truly is.


If they want to start doing these vaccine mandates, then they need to include testing all the people as well. And not just let the vaccinated in without a test, while making the unvaccinated require a negative test to enter.

[Lonk]

We put back mask mandates at my work place. Regardless of vaccination status, everyone must wear a mask unless you have your own office. Seems like NYC is going in that direction so we are trying to get ahead of it. It sucks, but it is what it is. I'm becoming numb to all these already.

[Harmony]

*rubs eyes and looks again*

DAVE!!!   


@Ben are you talking about antibody testing or testing for current infection?

It's always good to remember that one can test negative for current infection and be so early in their disease process that they don't have enough virus in them yet to test positive.  And they can still spread it, thinking they are safe.  There also false negatives.

I'm not saying I don't trust testing.  I'm just saying that there is no perfect failsafe measure.

[TAC]

Massachusetts representin'!

[lonestar]

*breathes massive sigh of relief*

Hi Dave