Coronavirus Thread v.2

[XeRocks81]

it’s NOT as simple as well they’re not vaccinated so screw them,  that’s not good public health policy.

He's not saying that.  He's saying they reap what they sow for not getting vaccinated.

how is that different? and btw I didn’t really mean that in an accusatory way, I could have worded that better. 

[King Postwhore]

Cram isn't saying screw them.  He's saying they put themselves in this position by not wanting the vaccine.  You can say they are idiots for not taking the vaccine.  It doesn't mean screw them for not taking the vaccine.  He's even pointed out stats that it would be better for everyone to get the vaccine.  Used himself and his family as an example on why it's good to get the vaccine.

[lonestar]

It's safe to say we're currently at a point where every US covid death could've been easily prevented.

[cramx3]

My point in that post was not to say "screw them" but their decision is the reason there is a spike. 

But if you want my honest opinion, there is a part of me that says "screw them" not in that I wish any harm on anyone, but they are the #1 reason we are where we are and it pisses me off that it's going to lead to deaths.  There's basically nothing we can do to change their minds so if they die, they die.  There's nothing I can do.  Unless the government forces me again, I will continue to live my life the way I have the last few months.  I'm not going to stay inside because a subset of this country doesn't believe in a virus and/or vaccine.

[lonestar]

I agree with you on that last part Marc, and am going to be fucking pissed if they reinstate mask mandates here...

[King Postwhore]

Watching the news today in NH, it was brought up that the Delta Variant is very low in NH right now. 

[Harmony]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

[lonestar]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

#facts

[hunnus2000]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.

It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.

Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.

[TAC]

The ironic thing is that not getting vaxxed in the name of liberties will ensure the actual taking away of liberties in the form of mask mandates, closures, travel restrictions, etc..

[kirksnosehair]

Yeah, but they're sure "sticking it to the man" or...something 

[jingle.boy]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This exactly.

Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great.  Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated.  Are you just going to ignore or disregard them?  Not provide them healthcare?  Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others.  How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?

*insert Bad Santa line here.

[Stadler]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

I think that's an important point. 

We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't.  I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.   

[Stadler]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This exactly.

Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great.  Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated.  Are you just going to ignore or disregard them?  Not provide them healthcare?  Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others.  How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?

*insert Bad Santa line here.

We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk.  When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them.  When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them.  When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them.   When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them. 

[kirksnosehair]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

I think that's an important point. 

We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't.  I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.

We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all.   It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal.  We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end.  Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated.  Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.

[hunnus2000]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This exactly.

Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great.  Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated.  Are you just going to ignore or disregard them?  Not provide them healthcare?  Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others.  How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?

*insert Bad Santa line here.

We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk.  When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them.  When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them.  When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them.   When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.

And when there is cigarette smoke in a restaurant, we require smokers to smoke outside. When drivers drive drunk, we throw them in jail. We require children to be vaccinated before entering Public schools with bullshit exceptions. We regulate personal liberties ALL THE TIME.

What's the difference?

[kirksnosehair]

45 is the difference

[lonestar]

So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.

[XeRocks81]

So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.

this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo. 

[Stadler]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This is the exact reason why I AM for vaccine mandates and no I am not advocating knocking down doors and prick people at gunpoint but I do think the unvaccinated privilege's need to be curtailed.

It's maddening to me that we restrict peoples liberties all the time in the name of saving lives but we can't do it with this health crisis? Good fucking grief, I'm tired of wearing masks too but the unvaccinated will ensure that this will keep happening and because of the data we now have, we can point the finger right at the source of the problem.

Call me selfish but I for one WANT a return to normalcy even if we have to curb "liberties" because I AM concerned about a variant jumping the virus and if this happens then as you say, we're ALL fucked.

That's easy to say when you don't value the liberties you're taking from other people as highly as they do.  Why does your fear of being sick trump someone else's fear of putting something they don't want in their body (for whatever reason)

The problem with mandates, of course, is enforcing them.  There's little concern with childhood mandates, because even if you prevent them from going to school, the "patient" has alternatives (home school, no school, etc., which only really compounds the problem; now you have an un- or poorly educated, unvaccinated child).  What are you going to do?  Prevent them from going to Starbucks?  Fine them?  Okay, so the town is $100 richer, but we're still faced with an unvaccinated person who's now pissed off that he was made to spend the $100 to protect what was his to begin with.

Still far better off trying to educate and push for as high a rate as we can from the people willing, and as in depth an outreach as we can for those that appear now to be unwilling.

[lonestar]

So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.

this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo.

One of the main arguments of the vaccine hesitant is that it's not an fda approved drug, so I think it's actually a very big priority. Also, there really doesn't need to be much studying since we already got a sample of 80 million people who have taken it. Seems mostly a matter of hard lining the data.

As to distribution to other countries , I think that'd be outside of the FDAs zone, wouldnt it?

[XeRocks81]

So the fda just announced that they'll be fast tracking the pfizer shot, and say full authorization could come as early as this month.

this seems like the wrong track… prioritizing the distribution of existing vaccines the parts of the world that need them and getting people to actually take them would be time and ressources better spent, imo.

One of the main arguments of the vaccine hesitant is that it's not an fda approved drug, so I think it's actually a very big priority. Also, there really doesn't need to be much studying since we already got a sample of 80 million people who have taken it. Seems mostly a matter of hard lining the data.

As to distribution to other countries , I think that'd be outside of the FDAs zone, wouldnt it?

okay I misunderstood.  Though this was about a 3rd pfizer dose, something I’ve heard about recently

[lonestar]

 

[Stadler]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

I think that's an important point. 

We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't.  I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.

We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all.   It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal.  We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end.  Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated.  Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.

That's actually not true. I've given one example (several posts back) of a rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.   

[lonestar]

Local bay area health officials, who cater to about 10 million people in the bay area, have 'strongly recommended' that vaccinated people wear masks indoors.... To protect the unvaccinated...

[kirksnosehair]

Yeah, unfortunately my impression is that many of those who have been using the lack of full FDA authorization as a rationale for not taking the vaccine will simply find another reason to not take it.  I watched a video of a guy yesterday, it was taken the day before he died from complications of the caronavirus and in the video he rants about how the "china virus is a hoax" in between gasps of air in his oxygen mask.  Swears he just has a "bad flu" and will be "back on his feet in a couple of days" at the end of the video it said he died the next morning, basically suffocated to death as his lungs filled up with fluid because he never got vaccinated and caught the delta variant.  He lived 10 days from the onset of symptoms and spent 9 days, 23 and a half hours of it ranting and raving about vaccine conspiracy theories, only when he was minutes from death did he admit that he might have made a mistake.  I don't cry a lot but that video made me cry when I saw his daughter's reaction to the news.  His 6 year old daughter.  Fuck.     I tried to find the video but they made it private. 

[Stadler]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

This exactly.

Just saying that anyone can get it who wants it is great.  Wish for more vaccinations all you want*, but the reality is 40%+ of the US are unvaccinated.  Are you just going to ignore or disregard them?  Not provide them healthcare?  Hospitals can still be overwhelmed with the Delta variant - and subsequent/potential others.  How do you protect that 40% from themselves (collectively), or do you (royal) just not care?

*insert Bad Santa line here.

We're going to do what we always do when people do things that have (undue) risk.  When those skiers jump out of helicopters and get caught in an avalanche, we go save them.  When boaters get caught too far ashore in a storm they can't navigate, we go save them.  When someone eats McDonald's and Diet Coke to the point they need a crane to get out of bed, we go help them.   When people have unprotected sex and end up with an STD, we treat them.

And when there is cigarette smoke in a restaurant, we require smokers to smoke outside. When drivers drive drunk, we throw them in jail. We require children to be vaccinated before entering Public schools with bullshit exceptions. We regulate personal liberties ALL THE TIME.

What's the difference?

It's not 45.  The anti-vaxx idea was around LONG before Trump, and will be with us long after he's gone (which means, now).

It's that cigarette smoking is not a fundamental right. 
It's that driving is not a fundamental right.
It's that education, believe it or not, in the U.S. is not a fundamental right.

Personal privacy - the constitutional theory under which a "vaccine" would likely fall - IS a fundamental right (Roe v. Wade solidifies that for us) and thus gets analyzed under a different scheme; it's called "strict scrutiny".

[Ben_Jamin]

As someone who is against mandating the vaccine I think one point that is often missed in these discussions about "these people made their choice and now they reap the consequences" is that the risk of continuing and often more potent mutations of the virus increases in large part because of the population that opts not to vaccinate.  Or in populations that for whatever reason cannot (yet) get vaccinated.  The more potent mutations could eventually jump the vaccine and then even those of us who are jabbed could be fucked.

I think that's an important point. 

We're - generally, not here - not really distinguishing between those that can't and those that won't.  I think that's an important distinction that the "red/blue" (which I know you didn't raise, but others here have) discussion clouds, and if we can pick off some of the "can't"'s, it might improve our chances against your point.

We should make that distinction, though, because people who can't get the vaccine for health reasons, well, that's not their fault at all.   It's the people who won't get it that are going to cause this thing to stretch out into a 3 or 4 year ordeal.  We're already 18 months into it and we are no where even remotely close to the end.  Largely due to the group who are refusing to get vaccinated.  Among the group refusing to vaccinate I've yet to hear a single rationale that wasn't based on straight up internet conspiracy theory bullshit.

Can the virus still mutate in those that can not take the vaccine due to health reasons?

[TAC]

What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..

[lonestar]

What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..

Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.

That's it.

[Ben_Jamin]

What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..

Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.

That's it.

Which many pregnant women already got the vaccine.

[Skeever]

What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..

Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.

That's it.

Also everyone under 12.

[Harmony]

What percent would you estimate the unvaccinated as those who are unable because of other health reasons? I can't help but think that number would be fairly insignificant. I could be wrong..

Quick search brought up an article from Yale that says the only people who absolutely can't get vaxxed are those who suffer from anaphylaxis to the ingredients. They also strongly suggest pregnant women wait.

That's it.

Also everyone under 12.

Bingo - I was specifically thinking of this population when I posted before.  And this is very worrisome for me because as the Delta variant is spreading it is impacting younger and younger populations more severely - probably because they were less likely to get vaccinated during the roll out and/or didn't qualify due to age.

FYI pregnant women are actually advised to get the vaccine by most OB/GYNs.  Active Covid in pregnancy is highly risky for both mother and fetus.  Evidence shows the protective antibodies from the vaccine can be transferred to the fetus/baby to some degree and even through breastmilk.  That said, I can understand a pregnant woman wanting to wait and thus, I don't think the vaccine should be forced on her or anyone for that matter.  I agree with Stadler that we reach more hesitant folks through education and discussion.  We should be mindful of just who is leading that discussion - trusted folks from inside of particular community is going to be listened to far more than politicians or highly polarizing figures and celebrities.

Outside of children under 12 and pregnant women, the number of people who should be excluded from those who can safely be vaccinated is quite small.  Anaphylaxis, a history of guillain barre, some immunocompromised (who actually could get the vax but who may not get full protection, oddly) would fall into those we typically try to protect via herd immunity.  Unfortunately, I doubt we get to herd immunity any time soon.

The vaccination of young kids brings up a whole lot of other nuances around making decisions about whether or not to get it.  There are some side effects happening related to heart inflammation in especially males.  Kids at this point, seem to be much less likely to contract Covid and if they do, to have less severe symptoms.  This could be changing with the variants, but even so if I were a parent of a 12 and under, I'd need a lot more convincing at this point.  I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced but looking at the risk/benefit ratio as it stands today, I'd likely pass.

Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine.  At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary.  And yes, that could change.  But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms.  Ethically how do we all sit with that?  Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.

[TAC]

Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine.  At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary.  And yes, that could change.  But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms.  Ethically how do we all sit with that?  Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.

Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?

It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.

[Harmony]

Another slightly off topic subject that irks me is this push for a 3rd round of vaccine.  At this point, there is not much evidence to suggest it is necessary.  And yes, that could change.  But there are still many places in the world where folks who want the vaccine cannot even get a first dose in their arms.  Ethically how do we all sit with that?  Personally, I think that is absolutely absurd.

Ethically? Probably the same way I deal with feeling lucky to have been born in the US. I'm going to have a dinner tonight right?

It is indeed sickening to think there are other humans that have to go through what they go through based solely on where they happen to have been born.

In my mind I just see the pharma company executives looking like Mr. Burns at the thought of another round.

I know....I know....we should be grateful and I am to the scientists who made the vaccine.  It's just.....