Coronavirus Thread v.2

[jingle.boy]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.

Boy, that post of Chris' sure didn't age well.   

[Cool Chris]

Probably not the first time that could be said...

[cramx3]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

Did FL ever have a mask mandate?  I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it.  But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now. 

[hunnus2000]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

Did FL ever have a mask mandate?  I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it.  But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.

Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, I heard this morning that we may we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! 

[jingle.boy]

Probably not the first time that could be said...

True... someone pointed out to me that one of mine from the beginning of the outbreak last year didn't quite pan out. 

[cramx3]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

Did FL ever have a mask mandate?  I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it.  But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.

Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! 

Yeah, "one of the worst" I didn't look into who is the worst, but FL has been on the list of worst states recently. 

Also, TBH, I'm not entirely sure there is going to be lockdowns again.  I'm not 100% on that thought, but I do feel like things will have to get a lot worse than it currently is before they start imposing restrictions again.  I think people will really uproar if they have to again.  The reality is, covid isn't going anywhere and we have to live with it. 

Having said that, two tours recently got rescheduled.  Deftones/Gojira and Nightwish all got pushed back to 2022 over the past few days.  That is concerning and could be a sign that restrictions could come back.  Or it could be that those tours featured foreign bands that may have issues touring the US.  I'm not sure as neither gave much details on why they are being rescheduled, but I just am very iffy if restrictions at this point will make any sense when we have proven vaccines that work.  When you read things like 99% of deaths are from unvaccinated people when anyone can easily get a vaccine.  It's just on the individual at this point, so I'm not sold on the idea of hurting business' to protect people who choose to not be protected.

[lonestar]

Probably not the first time that could be said...

I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. 

[jingle.boy]

Probably not the first time that could be said...

I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. 

Jesus fucking christ that's depressing.

[King Postwhore]

Just spell wrong RJ and distract him.  Works for me. 

[Ben_Jamin]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

Did FL ever have a mask mandate?  I guess maybe in local areas by the way you worded it.  But yeah, FL is one of the worst states with new cases now.

Not worse than Missouri unless Arkansas has surpassed us. It's still getting worse in elderly care facilities. 99% of overall new infections are unvaccinated. And now, we have another new strain. Hurray for personal freedoms! 

Yeah, "one of the worst" I didn't look into who is the worst, but FL has been on the list of worst states recently. 

Also, TBH, I'm not entirely sure there is going to be lockdowns again.  I'm not 100% on that thought, but I do feel like things will have to get a lot worse than it currently is before they start imposing restrictions again.  I think people will really uproar if they have to again.  The reality is, covid isn't going anywhere and we have to live with it. 

Having said that, two tours recently got rescheduled.  Deftones/Gojira and Nightwish all got pushed back to 2022 over the past few days.  That is concerning and could be a sign that restrictions could come back.  Or it could be that those tours featured foreign bands that may have issues touring the US.  I'm not sure as neither gave much details on why they are being rescheduled, but I just am very iffy if restrictions at this point will make any sense when we have proven vaccines that work.  When you read things like 99% of deaths are from unvaccinated people when anyone can easily get a vaccine.  It's just on the individual at this point, so I'm not sold on the idea of hurting business' to protect people who choose to not be protected.

I just saw that In Flames had to drop from the Megadeth tour due to "International Visa Issues" so Hatebreed is the replacement.

Could be that Gojira and Nightwish are also having "international visa issues" as well preventing them from touring elsewhere. Nightwish also had to reschedule their Latin American dates as well.

Lamb of God was the only one to give an actual reason for In Flames dropping. The others don't even mention anything at all, only saying "we will be back, sorry for the reschedule"




This article has an interesting figure with more than a "yes" or "no" response for the question: "Have you personally received at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine, or not? As you may know, an FDA-authorized vaccine for COVID-19 is now available for free to all adults in the U.S. Do you think you will…?"

Demographic patterns in vaccine uptake and intentions are similar to those measured in previous surveys, with large majorities of older adults, those with serious health conditions, college graduates, and Democrats saying they have gotten at least one dose of the COVID-19 vaccine. Black and Hispanic adults along with younger adults remain somewhat more likely than their counterparts to say they will “wait and see” before getting vaccinated, while Republicans, rural residents, and White Evangelical Christians continue to be disproportionately more likely to say they will definitely not get vaccinated.

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/poll-finding/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-june-2021/

There are 5 different responses to this question.
- I already got it
- As soon as possible
- wait and see
- Only if required
- Definitely not

It would be interesting to know out of those vaccinated, how many got it because it was required? If these people were not required to get the vaccine, would they have been in the "Wait and See" or the "Definitely Not" response group?

That data would add to the overall perspective of those that are unvaccinated.

And I noticed that by using the term Unvaccinated, you are lumping 3 groups of people into one label. From what I quoted above, these 3 groups are not all the same either. It's why I asked if people were not required to take the vaccine, where would they be lumped. Wouldn't that change the demographics for the identity of these 3 groups, as it becomes 2? Those who will "wait and see" and those who are "definitely not".

[cramx3]

After I posted that, I saw the same thing about In Flames which made me think it was a covid travel thing, but Gojira is still doing their headline US tour (actually added 3 dates now too).  So I don't know.

[Ben_Jamin]

After I posted that, I saw the same thing about In Flames which made me think it was a covid travel thing, but Gojira is still doing their headline US tour (actually added 3 dates now too).  So I don't know.

Oh yeah, didn't snap about that. Who knows with the Deftones/Gojira tour then.

[lonestar]

Probably not the first time that could be said...

I swear Chad has a whole big file of posts that he's just waiting to throw back into people's faces. He's done it to me many times. 

Jesus fucking christ that's depressing.

 

[kirksnosehair]

I don't think there will be full on lockdowns again because of how economically devastating they are, plus about half of the population has been fully vaccinated.  No, there won't be any national lockdowns or even mask mandates.  There will be "outbreaks" in various regions.  If you want to know where the outbreaks are going to be, just look at the Trump vs Biden election map.  If a state is red, they're going to be having outbreaks, especially in the fall and winter.  If a state is blue, they probably won't be having any major outbreaks.  Just look at where cases are on the rise right now. 

There is a hardcore group, I'd say probably about 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the general population who are just not going to get vaccinated.  These are the people who will be arguing that the "china virus" is "nothing to be concerned about" and "overblown" and "just like a cold" from their ICU beds in the hospital, while the doctor is explaining why they have to intubate them.  My sister-in-law is works in a hospital and she tells me that practically everyone who is in there now with a Covid-19 infection are the unvaccinated.  Many only realizing in their final moments the horrible mistake they've made.  It's simultaneously sad and infuriating.  Sad because it didn't have to be like this and infuriating because there are still people out there pushing bullshit conspiracy theories and misinformation about the vaccines and it's literally killing people.  A healthy portion of those deaths 100% preventable.   

[/size]I get the numbers, I can read, but it's not THAT definitive.     10% of Democrats and 37% of Republicans live in homes where NO ONE is vaccinated.   That's not all or nothing; these are trends.And we've had a long conversation already that just because you don't get vaccinated doesn't mean you're a racist, bigoted moron who doesn't understand basic science.  Perpetuating those myths does NOTHING for improving the numbers.

Weird.  The words "racist" "bigoted" and "moron" appear nowhere in my post.  I wish you would stop doing shit like this.  You are like a strawman machine.

[Stadler]

I get the numbers, I can read, but it's not THAT definitive.     10% of Democrats and 37% of Republicans live in homes where NO ONE is vaccinated.   That's not all or nothing; these are trends.

And we've had a long conversation already that just because you don't get vaccinated doesn't mean you're a racist, bigoted moron who doesn't understand basic science. 

Perpetuating those myths does NOTHING for improving the numbers. 

[Ben_Jamin]

It's not surprising because there are deaths that are preventable 100% but people still choose to do these things. It's not just Covid-19 and vaccinations.

The only ones getting bad are the ones who chose not to vaccinate and are likely bad in health already.

The difference is. They know the consequences, they know it's preventable, yet they still choose to do it.

I hate to be bleak, but when you look at it that way, they chose death. And wouldn't it be a form of natural selection, darwin award worthy, and weeding out the stupid?

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

[TAC]

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

Probably not too many..

[wolfking]

It's not surprising because there are deaths that are preventable 100% but people still choose to do these things. It's not just Covid-19 and vaccinations.

The only ones getting bad are the ones who chose not to vaccinate and are likely bad in health already.

The difference is. They know the consequences, they know it's preventable, yet they still choose to do it.

I hate to be bleak, but when you look at it that way, they chose death. And wouldn't it be a form of natural selection, darwin award worthy, and weeding out the stupid?

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

So you are saying we have reached natural selection of the human race all simply based on people who are reluctant to get vaccinated?

[lonestar]

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

Probably not too many..

And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.

[darkshade]

Keep in mind that chart is for cases, not deaths, which have significantly dropped, long before any vaccine roll outs.

No they didn't.





Data taken from here: https://covid.ourworldindata.org/data/owid-covid-data.csv

The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.

See, the correct response there would be "Oh it seems like my previous statement was a lie/false. I apologise."

I wasn't lying or intentionally trying to spread a falsehood. I specifically recall reading about, and seeing, cases dropping (or maybe it was deaths dropping) before there was any widespread vaccinations. There may have been some public figures who put on a show early on, but the average US citizen who wanted a vaccine hadn't gotten one yet. The 1st chart kind of shows that.

[King Postwhore]

Could it be that most isolated so it dropped the rate?

[Ben_Jamin]

 

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

Probably not too many..

And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.

About how many people is that?

[darkshade]

And here's the point:  if the "I'm not getting vaccinated!" crowd is somehow "polluted" by the mis- and dis-information out there, why are the "we should ALL be vaccinated NOW!" crowd somehow immune, even if it's a matter of degree?   Why does the focus on these issues - falsehoods, conspiracies - always seem to flow along party/ideological lines?

There's a difference between forming your opinion on what you see on social media vs. what the data shows and it's hard to argue against the data but very easy to see how someone's claims are polluted when they make little sense when you look at what they are basing their thoughts on.  I don't know why this happens to also fall along party lines, that's very concerning to me, but it also follows along education levels too which makes more sense.

I don't disagree with that at all.  And the data is pretty clear.  But there are other aspects to this that transcend vaccines, and that transcend that hard data.   Again, Florida and California, Texas and Connecticut.  They attacked this very differently, and yet have results that are if not identical then at least consistent.   I don't see this as strictly about data and graphs.

Today's discussion hasn't really been about lockdowns so the comparisons of how states handled it, to me at least, wasn't part of my thought process.  I think there's still a lot of debate about the right and wrong ways to handle covid.  I'm not sure I know the answers either. 

NJ, for example, was one of the worst states in terms of infections/deaths and had some of the strictest restrictions.  Some of it might be explainable, as the state was hit early before there was mass testing and too many unknowns at the time on how to help people with infections, and they had their mistake of putting covid patients into LTC facilities. Also the most densely populated state so people in close quarters are very likely to spread.  So while one can say, the restrictions helped make the numbers not be as bad as they could be, they were still so bad, that maybe the restrictions hurt more than they helped.  I don't know.  There may likely never be data that shows that to be the case.  However, what we do have data on is how the vaccines work.  NJ is one of the top states for vaccinations and we've actually seen some days of 0 deaths.  NJ has been fully opened and things are normal here.  While I don't think I will ever know how our governence truly affected the outcomes, I know for a fact as of today, the vaccinations are why we are here.

This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported. It warned against reporting someone as having COVID-19, just because the test had been positive, when they did not actually present any symptoms.

https://www.who.int/news/item/20-01-2021-who-information-notice-for-ivd-users-2020-05

[TAC]

So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?

[bosk1]

 

[King Postwhore]

Darkshade,  it looks like you search for anything to debunk the virus.

It affects those who are older and not in God health.   Do you not look at those as important to those who are younger and in good health?

You know those in good health can still spread it?

So Biden was allegedly inaugurated? That didn't actually happen?

Tim, I love you. 

[darkshade]

Are you pro or anti vaccines? Because this is the measure Darkshade suggests is a tool for totalitarianism and unnecessary for "the least deadly pandemic ever".

FORCING each and every person to get a vaccine, without a vote or other means of civil disobedience, and with punishment for non-compliance, is pretty darn close to totalitarianism.   

Fair, but (and on this we do not see eye-to-eye), why should someone's decision to not get vaccinated then also put my health at risk?  This is what I take issue with.  I think public and private institutions should have the ability to limit access to services and/or facilities for those that put others' health at risk because of their decisions / actions.  If they want to put their own health at risk - hey, go for it.  But don't in turn put mine at risk. 

I think we need to develop quick/rapid/instant tests that are accurate for those that refuse to vaccinate.  If they have an alternative, then they can get access to services/facilities.

Why?  Because you have no "right" to a zero-risk existence.  That's the fallacy.  You're at risk every single day based on the acts/omissions/decisions of others.  Some obvious and direct, others not so obvious and more consequential.   No rights are absolute; in a democratic society, rights are relative, relative to those rights of those around you.  I don't have the right to kill you... unless you abuse my right to privacy.  You have the right to free speech... unless you abuse my right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness (you cannot slander/libel me).   All rights have some level of compromise as they butt against someone else's right, and so here with the added proviso that you arguably don't have the "right" that is being compromised to begin with.   I've often suggested that when having this conversation, insert "abortion" in with "vaccine" because the premise is the same, the rights in question are the same, and the analysis is the same.

We KNOW that an abortion - by an individual woman - has societal impacts.  There is cost, there is impact on things like crime, etc.  But do we MANDATE abortions? Absolutely not, and when legislature gets uppity in terms of putting any framework around abortion, WE get uppity (myself included).   All on the premise that a woman's rights to privacy are sacrosanct, regardless of the impact to others or society.

Similarly, people have no "right" to go see a concert, or a sporting event, or crossing a border, or <insert pretty much anything>.  So, if those rights are removed for whatever reason, then my response is 'suck-it-up-buttercup'.  We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to smoke on a plane was removed, or smoke indoors.  We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to drive while impaired was removed.  We didn't lose our shit when peoples' "right" to carry 4oz bottles of liquid on a plane was removed.  So if a company or gov't wants to limit "rights" because of vaccination or COVID status, I don't see where that is out of line.

Ironic you chose abortion as your analogy, because some States essentially MANDATE no-abortion, regardless of the impact to the individual.

Yea... but...

Some Americans, including Thomas Jefferson and George Mason, incorporated the concept of the pursuit of happiness into man's natural, or inherent, universal rights. Although not legally binding, cancelling concerts, social events, ball games, etc... is not infringing on anyone's rights, as long as it is temporary. But then, there is nothing more permanent than a temporary government policy, or something like that.

[darkshade]

Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US? 

Considering the many months in 2019 when CCP knew about the virus leak, and they still let people travel from China to Europe and the United States via airplane...
YES

[lonestar]

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

Probably not too many..

And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.

About how many people is that?

Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.

[King Postwhore]

How many of those unvaccinated that died, are people that had a heath condition where they couldn't take the vaccine because their Doctor told them not to because it's side effects outweigh the benefits for them.

Probably not too many..

And those are the people who we, as a society, have a responsibility to protect by getting vaccinated ourselves.

About how many people is that?

Enough that they warrant us being mature, banding together, and doing what we can to make sure they survive.

Stop being an adult RJ.

[darkshade]

As I said above, the meter flips, for me, at government mandate.  I get it, and I complied, but some of the actions of the governors during the early stages of the pandemic were on the other side of that equation. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, especially in the case of emergency, but the emergency - the overwhelming of our healthcare system - has passed.

That's what I was getting at with the pandemic being essentially over in May-June 2020, that's around the time deaths stopped being reported en masse in the news media, in the US at least.

[lonestar]

This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.

Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?

[bosk1]

This doesn't take into account that on the day of Joe Biden’s alleged inauguration, the World Health Organization (WHO) quietly issued new guidance on the manner in which polymerase chain reaction (PCR) tests were to be conducted and reported.

Is another one of those "spirit of what he's saying" moments?

Depends.  "Alleged inauguration" is pretty indefensible, and using that term says a lot that is unflattering about Darkshade.  But if the point to be discussed is what the WHO did, deflecting that to fixate on how silly "alleged inauguration" is says more about the person arguing with Darkshade than it does about him. 

[lonestar]

 



When someone leads off with "Joe Biden's alleged inauguration", pretty much everything they say after that is considered, by me at least, to be trash.

[King Postwhore]

Let's bring in Ben Gates to figure this out.