Coronavirus Thread v.2

[wolfking]

At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all.  Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit.  Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.

I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?

Honestly, I don't know.  I've never been big on vaccines and even the flu shot I don't get each year, I feel it's useless for me.

I haven't followed the full thread but the last few pages I have and I can see all points, but with so many different viewpoints, it's going to be a never ending discussion.

The virus hasn't been anywhere near as devastating over here than the states.  If you guys lived here, you'd probably understand why I don't have a strong viewpoint on it.  I see what you guys are saying but can see points darkshade is trying to make also.  I guess it hasn't impacted my life enough to warrant urgency in going and getting a jab. 

What would make me change my mind?  I guess, my job didn't get affected, I've been paid every since the start of the pandemic.  I'm not a social guy so my outside life hasn't been affected.  Me and the misses can't go away but that's about it.  I haven't felt the harshness of this.  In my line of work, I admit a lockdown here and there gave me a good breather.  Selfish I know but I still get paid.

As I said I don't have strong viewpoints but I can see the way it's heading that vaccinations may be unavoidable.  I'll look at all angles when I need to or when it affects me enough to really give a shit.  I like the idea of our body using it's natural immunity towards things hence why I don't get the flu shot.  But again, I'm not a total fucking wombat and can see the way it's heading.  I fear when governments make the jab mandatory and what happens then with the people that refuse.  Could be chaos.  I won't be one of those people, I'm just undecided.

[wolfking]

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair.  Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated).  Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself.  Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.

A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing.  I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me?  I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not.  Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.

I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate?  That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing.  Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life.  It's a huge feat.  I can't see it happening.

[wolfking]

Adding to my comment above, if I lived over there where it's been more devastating, my view on the realness and urgency of all this would no doubt be different.

[cramx3]

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair.  Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated).  Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself.  Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.

A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing.  I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me?  I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not.  Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.

I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate?  That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing.  Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life.  It's a huge feat.  I can't see it happening.

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.  Most experts say 70ish% to reach herd immunity so once you rule out those who can't and children, it is achievable if people just did it.  But that 70% can also include previous infections.  I think this is why NJ has reached herd immunity.  We got hit really hard with one of the most infectious states AND we have a high vaccination rate.  It's practically like there's no covid at all in this state these days (that's not true, but the numbers are negligible). 

I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it.  Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine.  One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.

[TAC]

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it.  Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine.  One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.

Well, the thing about this is the passability of the virus from one to another. That's an interesting dynamic. It's the thing that invites conversation about societal norms or social responsibility surrounding getting vaccinated. It's a conundrum for sure.

[bosk1]

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

Well, as Darkshade tried to point out a couple of pages ago, people are hesitant for a lot of different reasons.  But for some reason, I guess since it came from him, a lot of folks can't see past that to see what he was saying, and are more interested in arguing dog whistles and straw men so they can remain entrenched in their echo chambers rather than trying to understand why some people are hesitant. 

[cramx3]

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy.  Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is.  However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I've said it before a few times in this thread, and I certainly still believe it.  Covid isn't going anywhere so you either get a natural infection or you get the vaccine.  One is the better option not just for yourself, but for the greater good of humanity.

Well, the thing about this is the passability of the virus from one to another. That's an interesting dynamic. It's the thing that invites conversation about societal norms or social responsibility surrounding getting vaccinated. It's a conundrum for sure.

Agreed about this. This virus is tricky and it's not a "known variable" which creates lots of ambiguity.

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

Well, as Darkshade tried to point out a couple of pages ago, people are hesitant for a lot of different reasons.  But for some reason, I guess since it came from him, a lot of folks can't see past that to see what he was saying, and are more interested in arguing dog whistles and straw men so they can remain entrenched in their echo chambers rather than trying to understand why some people are hesitant. 

Care to elaborate? Most of the hesitations in this thread have been from disinformation (including basically everything Darkshade has posted).  It's also what I've seen from personal, anecdotal, experience.  There's certainly lots of legit reasons for hesitancy.  Wolfking brings one up himself being from a mostly unaffected region of the world.  Others have as well with health conditions and even religious reasons are understandable (like James Hetfield). 

[XJDenton]

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair.  Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated).  Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself.  Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.

A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing.  I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me?  I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not.  Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.

I get all that but are we ever going to get a 100% vaccination rate?  That's really what is needed is it not to somehow live with this thing.  Everyone has their own morals but we can't control what any other single human being does in their life.  It's a huge feat.  I can't see it happening.

Current estimates for the required vaccinated population for herd immunity are closer to 80-85%. Even if we don't reach that threshold, the higher the number is, the less intrusive future lockdown measures to contain outbreaks will be needed. (Masks and self isolation also reduce the R0). A higher vaccinated percentage also makes it much more likely outbreaks will be geographically contained.

Another good reason for as high a percentage as possible is that it reduces the length and severity of infection, which overall reduces the chances of more dangerous variants being created.

[wolfking]

I will say my viewpoint comes from mostly ignorance and a lack of information or caring for that matter in result of being largely unaffected so take my views with a grain of salt.

[XJDenton]

What part of the world do you live in out of interest?

[TAC]

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy.  Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is.

Sure, but my point was that people can be hesitant and it have nothing to do with politics or disinformation.

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

[XJDenton]

My mate has a pathological fear of needles. He had to be sedated for his holiday vaccinations when we went to Asia.

Key is to identify where these fears have their origin, whether they are based in a real risk, and do our best to counter disinformation that certain individuals and organisations spread.

[wolfking]

What part of the world do you live in out of interest?

Australia.

[wolfking]

We only can't because of the disinformation at this time IMO.   

I think people can be very informed and still be hesitant. We (society, not you Marc) seem to equate hesitancy with disinformation, politics, etc... when it's simply the fear of injecting a foreign substance into your body. I'm sure that's scary for some people.

True, but you even admit in this post that disinformation plays a role in hesitancy.  Politcs play a role too, which should not be the case for the health of the population, but it no doubt is.

Sure, but my point was that people can be hesitant and it have nothing to do with politics or disinformation.

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

I agree with Tim, I can have all the info and facts in the world, I'd still be undecided and hesitant.  My indecisiveness doesn't really stem from politics or disinformation I don't think. 

I also agree, while I'm a bit of a health and exercise freak, you can't compare something like this to a meal of Mikkey Dees.

And ha, when we use to go to Sydney which we can't do because of this, it's a 12 hour drive.  I would drive the whole way myself with only 3 or 4 stops.  Even if we only went for 5-6 days, I'd easily take 2 of those days to drive as opposed to flying.  Just would rather drive every day of the week.

[cramx3]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

[wolfking]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual. 

[cramx3]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.

Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit.  I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.

[XJDenton]

I think in general he has a semi-reasonable point. Vaccines are manufactured by companies with very stringent quality control, multiple international and national agencies approving them, so you know exactly what is in them. Whereas the rice in your grocery store might have more arsenic or not depending on where it was sourced that month, or how it was washed, or whatever. There's a lot of factors that are opaque to the average food shopper.

[Ben_Jamin]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.

You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.

The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.

I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.

The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.

Food, Inc.

[wolfking]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.

Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit.  I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.

Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that.  Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really.  No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.

[TAC]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.

You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.

The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.

I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.

The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.

Food, Inc.

 


Obviously, I don't know everything that goes into a fucking sausage. I guess our opinions differ then. To me, I just cannot equate a food choice to an injection choice.

I just think real hesitancy boils down to a feeling of a loss of control. Once you inject a substance into your body, there's no turning back. Kind of like stepping on a plane for me.

Look, I'm not here to argue about fucking food. My point in jumping into the conversation was that I feel for those that have a fear, a legitimate fear. I never had disinformation about planes. I had good information, but I was still too scared to fly. When the ironic thing is that I probably put my family in more danger by driving from Massachusetts to Florida 35+ times.

[wolfking]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.

You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.

The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.

I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.

The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.

Food, Inc.

nah mate, you really can't.  If you eat something that doesn't agree with you, then you don't eat that type of food, simple. 

If you choose your diet wisely and eat the best you can, you can't compare the two.  The average American diet I agree is shit but eating a Big Mac is not that same thing.

The food people eat causes problems because of how much and how often they eat it.  I love Mikkey Dee's as much as the next bloke even though I'm a health guy, but eating a Big Mac once a month is not going to do a damn thing to my health or my body.  Eating it every day, that's a different story.  You have pretty much a wide variety of control over your food intake.

[wolfking]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.

You actually can, because you are ingesting the nutrients from the foods you eat. This affects your body and your health. If you eat something your body doesn't agree with, it will cause your stomach to become upset. You'll then throw up or throw up the other end. This is called Food Poisoning.

The processing of the foods by how they feed the animals, treat the animals, and how the workers handle the carcasses, all affect the final meat product that is sold in the grocery stores.

I just had to watch this documentary and it's a damn good insight into where our food comes from and all that is involved from the farming of the animal, to the plant processing (including the workers), to the grocery store shelves.

The reasons for the rise in cases of E.Coli outbreaks in the foods, as an example.

Food, Inc.

 


Obviously, I don't know everything that goes into a fucking sausage. I guess our opinions differ then. To me, I just cannot equate a food choice to an injection choice.

I just think real hesitancy boils down to a feeling of a loss of control. Once you inject a substance into your body, there's no turning back. Kind of like stepping on a plane for me.

Look, I'm not here to argue about fucking food. My point in jumping into the conversation was that I feel for those that have a fear, a legitimate fear. I never had disinformation about planes. I had good information, but I was still too scared to fly. When the ironic thing is that I probably put my family in more danger by driving from Massachusetts to Florida 35+ times.

Well said.  If eat something bad, I throw it up and it's out of my body.  The vaccine is in me then you can't reverse that.

[Ben_Jamin]

This is totally relevant to the discussion...

Edible Vaccines

Regulatory and biosafety obstacles, rather than technical and experimental constraints, could delay the arrival of edible vaccines to our tables and hospitals, especially in the countries most in need.

Although many countries on all continents develop, or have developed, GM crops on an experimental level, only 26 nations currently have regulations implemented for their commercial use. The fact that so many countries lack legislation, or use backward and cumbersome regulatory frameworks, such as the one employed by the European Union, could increase the final cost of bringing the edible vaccine from the laboratory to the market, making it difficult for small and medium-sized companies or public institutions to develop this technology.

In the case of Mexico, where they are already working on the development of an edible vaccine in tomato plants against COVID-19, local scientists are dealing with difficult times under the mandate of a president who has repeatedly declared himself against the use of GM crops and who appointed a scientist famous for being a staunch GM opponent as director of CONACYT, the government entity that regulates the national science budget. Nor can we forget the recent problem of Mexican cotton growers, who aren’t receiving new permits for the cultivation of GMOs by the current government..

“Given the current contingency situation for the COVID-19 we are experiencing, it will undoubtedly make us rethink the legislation of the GMOs that apply not only in Mexico but in Latin America,” Garza noted. “What is currently happening allows us to rethink whether we are really capable as countries of being able to face a pandemic of such magnitude without using the full potential that GMOs offer us for the development of vaccines, especially for developing countries … The benefits of biotechnology must be shown to society not as an evil, but as an effective solution to many of the problems that we currently have in the region.”

Paradoxically, if the investigation into this promising edible vaccine — created in the Mexican public sector — progresses successfully, it is highly likely that its development towards the clinical phase and productive escalation would move north, to the US or Canada, where companies are already working in molecular pharming aimed at COVID-19 and have the world’s most agile GMO regulatory frameworks. This could happen despite high-level research centers and top scientist working in agricultural biotechnology in Mexico, such as CIMMYT, CINVESTAV and INIFAP, as well as local universities with biopharming capabilities.

[cramx3]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.

Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit.  I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.

Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that.  Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really.  No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.

Well, of course being healthier will help you, but it doesn't stop a virus from spreading and mutating. Eventually there will be people, mostly older, who are susceptible and will die. The average life expectancy of a human in the US has gone down in the last year for example. https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019.

[wolfking]

However, I don't understand the foreign substance part when most of America will drink alcohol and eat fast food.  That is way more questionable, IMO, than a vaccine to prevent illness.

I don't think you can compare taking a needle and injecting something into your system with having a beer and a big mac.


Look, you and I have no issue with this vaccine. Hesitancy, REAL hesitancy has nothing to do with politics or disinformation. It just has to do with..hesitancy. I didn't step on a plane for 15 years of my adult life because I was ...hesitant. My odds were pretty damn good that I would survive a plane trip to Disney World. But fuck that, I rather drive!

While eating food is not the same as an injection from a pharmaceutical, I'd say there are way more unknowns with what we, as a world, consume daily.  This inludes myself who will eat or drink almost anything to at least try it out. The real hesitancy you have alluded to though, I haven't seen that in this thread.  People however do have lots of irrational fears, including myself in some things.  If someone said, I can't do needles (wow was about to post before XJ's needle fear reference  ). I would highly suggest they find a way to overcome that fear for this time and then understand they aren't going to be able to take this version of the vaccine because of that innate fear. If they instead presented me with twitter posts about how needles kill people every year (not what's in the needles) and that's why they are scared, I would say they need to be educated.

That all depends on your diet and food choices as an individual.

Of course, and my perspective comes from an American where we eat like shit.  I know you don't, it's just an example of how many people put questionable substances in their body without regard, but won't take a vaccination that has now passed 6 months of massive data to prove it's not only effective but safe.

Yeah, I thought you were speaking on behalf of the population on a whole, I should have mentioned that.  Getting everyone to change their diet to eat better could be a similar analogy in people not wanting the jab to take it up really.  No matter how much info out there that a certain diet is bad, people won't change. They have all the facts but are hesitant to change.

Well, of course being healthier will help you, but it doesn't stop a virus from spreading and mutating. Eventually there will be people, mostly older, who are susceptible and will die. The average life expectancy of a human in the US has gone down in the last year for example. https://www.npr.org/2021/02/18/968791431/american-life-expectancy-dropped-by-a-full-year-in-the-first-half-of-2020#:~:text=Life%20expectancy%20at%20birth%20for,0.9%20year%20decrease%20from%202019.

I'm not saying it does.

Regardless of the pandemic, I can see life expectancy declining far into the future for a variety of different reasons.

[MirrorMask]

Anyway, I had to suffer for one day, now I'm fine. Fever has gone and headache too, I'm not 100% alright but overall I'm fine, I had to endure through it all for just one day in the end.

[Skeever]

I think there are just like two words of people even within places like the US. You have the people who never changed one thing about their behavior because of the pandemic, and if they were lucky enough not to have experienced anything that would change their mind they just assume that everyone else was like them, not taking precautions or making voluntary sacrifices. A few of my in-laws are this way - they are blown away when they see family who still wear masks, they joke about "child abuse" "taking peoples kids away" when they see them wearing masks. They think the whole thing was made up, and ran its natural course, regardless of what precautions people took. Everyone who made some kind of sacrifice and even took the marginal personal risk of getting the vaccine get their efforts demeaned and devalued, of course THEY aren't part of the reason why the pandemic wasn't as bad as it could have been. Because to admit that would be to admit that they (my in-laws) are part of the reason why the pandemic has been as bad as it's going. 

It's as bad as it is because of disinfo coming from the entirety of the federal government early on, as well as CCP censoring doctors and scientists in 2019.
The rest unraveled from there. Thankfully, the internet has slowed the process of the US becoming a totalitarian state, a little... Thousands, maybe millions, are waking up to what's been going on lately. Joe Biden and the Federal Government want to go door to door with a list of 'bad' people, eh? Sounds eerily familiar.

I miss this in all the kerfuffle, but this stops way short of addressing my point. Sure governments and elected leaders may have made less than ideal decisions at many places in the chain of events, but that doesn't mean everyone gets to pass the buck on personal responsibility. You're so concerned about totalitarianism, why do you consider protocols to minimize the spread and protect the elderly and minorities to be so dire? The state doing nothing to help the weak and elderly is a lot more like the attitude of totalitarian states you keep mentioning than anything that's going on currently in the West. It's called tyranny of the majority.

[emtee]

We're having a surge in FL. Local governments are discussing mask mandates again, even for the vaccinated. Close to 100% of the new cases are unvaccinated folks. I sure hope this segment of the population has a collective change of heart.

[Stadler]

At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all.  Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit.  Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.

I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?

But why does there have to be a reason?  And by that I mean, conscious, logical, data-driven reason?    XJ wrote something like this too.  Don't you ever just do (or not do) something because it feels right/not right?    I'm a scientist, in the sense that I have an Engineering degree from a major university, I have an MBA from a top 10, maybe 15 business school, and I'm Six Sigma certified.  I understand the quantitative means to arriving at a decision.

I did none of that when I got my shot.  I WANTED the shot.  Simple as that.   There are entire BOOKS written on the "irrationality" of man's decision-making process, and yet here, we want everyone to be precisely data driven and in lock-step with the data that we feel is of importance.  I pimp this book so much I should get a cut of the proceeds at this point, but "How Risky Is It, Really?" by Dave Ropeik.   We - as humans - are HORRIBLE at this. HORRIBLE.   We smoke.  We screw without protection.  We drive without seatbelts.  We drink diet soda.  We scream to ban guns.  We complain immigrants are criminals.   Our FEARS do not match the data in a wildly excessive amount of cases.   Why is ANYONE surprised that it's happening here, and why are we expecting anything different?   I would posit it's selfishness, and our own fears (meaning we demand others comply with our wishes and we're terrified if/when they don't), but I don't think people are going to like that answer very much. 

[King Postwhore]

There's always a reason Stads.  Against medication, fear, you think you're healthy enough and don't want it. Religious.


There's always a reason.  Now he doesn't have to answer because it is a "personal" choice.

[cramx3]

Well my little sister who is anti-vax, and has told me she won't get the vaccine because she had constantly been exposed via her church (had many cases of covid throughout the 1.5 years) and step son (who lived with them while he was sick with covid) and never tested positive.  Thinking she had some sort of natural immunity.... now has covid.  So does her husband.  So do her two young children.  The ignorance amazes me and they are paying for it now.

[lonestar]

Damn... I hope they get through it safely.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well my little sister who is anti-vax, and has told me she won't get the vaccine because she had constantly been exposed via her church (had many cases of covid throughout the 1.5 years) and step son (who lived with them while he was sick with covid) and never tested positive.  Thinking she had some sort of natural immunity.... now has covid.  So does her husband.  So do her two young children.  The ignorance amazes me and they are paying for it now.

How bad are they?

[cramx3]

My nieces are mostly fine.  My sister and her husband are dealing with fevers and fatigue.