Coronavirus Thread v.2

[jingle.boy]

The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.

Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes.  Data trends don't prove anything.  They only reveal patterns.  The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries?  Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US?  Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic".  If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.

As a general point, and not specific to you, Jingle, I canNOT wait for the next gun discussion.  I have enough for probably 25, 30 posts (not just from you, but generally). 

Touche.  Surely you've noticed that I've tapped out of those discussions. 

[Stadler]

No state has an outright ban on abortion.   I think it is 12 states that have restrictions - either time or scope - on abortions, some more restrictive than others, but no mandates. I'm personally not in favor of any outright restrictions (I don't have issue with many of the administrative constraints) but none of the more onerous ones have passed muster with the courts as of yet.

Fair... and I'm not advocating for a ban on not-being vaccinated ... but I have no problem with restrictions on those that are or are at risk of catching/spreading COVID, and/or actually being COVID positive.

I did not know that.  Learn something new.....   Medical question: how does the body know the difference?

Not sure, but it's something I've heard specifically in interviews (video and print) with virologists - specific to mRNA vaccines and COVID.  A quick scan on the interwebz suggests that my statement is not absolute, but "it depends".

I wasn't quizzing you; I am absolutely FASCINATED by the concept of immunology.  I was pre-med for the first two years of college, but opted to a) drink and play Setback most of that time, and b) to switch to engineering once I sobered up, but if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone into immunology.   It's one of the five wonders of the world, for me.  :O

[MirrorMask]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

[jingle.boy]

Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product.  How is that not a violation of individual privacy?  I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.

It's complicated, but presumably, you're volunteering the information in order to get the product that you neither have to buy, nor that they have to sell you.   

They also cannot disclose this information to any third party without your authorization.

On your first point, isn't that then the same say, if you want to go to TD Garden to watch a game?  You're required to "volunteer" the information (ie, COVID status) in order to get the product (ticket) "that you neither have to buy, nor they have to sell you"?

On the second point, Ok, I'm game.  I absolutely agree that any collection of vax status needs to have very clear protocols around it.

I wasn't quizzing you;

Never thought you were - I was just holding myself accountable to the validity of my own statements.  There was no defensiveness in my response - just explaining.

[Stadler]

Also, health / life insurance companies ask for a LITANY of health status' before providing their product.  How is that not a violation of individual privacy?  I'm genuinely trying to understand where the difference / distinction is.

It's complicated, but presumably, you're volunteering the information in order to get the product that you neither have to buy, nor that they have to sell you.   

They also cannot disclose this information to any third party without your authorization.

On your first point, isn't that then the same say, if you want to go to TD Garden to watch a game?  You're required to "volunteer" the information (ie, COVID status) in order to get the product (ticket) "that you neither have to buy, nor they have to sell you"?

On the second point, Ok, I'm game.  I absolutely agree that any collection of vax status needs to have very clear protocols around it.

I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.   

[Skeever]

I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.

Sorry for not responding a lot here (busy work day, also a lot of this thread is getting way off track), but isn't this the same kind of activity that is being called "bullying" and "totalitarianism" here? People are being asked by the government and often their workplaces to volunteer to get the vaccine. No one is being forced. Offering private incentives to those who have gotten it is nothing new. In some cases people are able to enjoy additional loosening of restrictions for being able to demonstrate vaccine status.

So what am I missing? Where does the meter flip a few notches into totalitarianism? (And no, I didn't click the agitation politics news sites that were linked earlier). You asked earlier what I'd do to meet darkshade in the middle. I have no idea what I could do, because darkshade has been "forced" to do nothing. The whole rollout has been designed to make the skeptics feel as comfortable and coddled as possible that the vaccine will be less dangerous even than taking a tylenol (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/johnson-johnson-vaccine-blood-clots-fda-cdc.html) and yet we're still here. 

[XJDenton]

Gentle reminder that some of these discussions may be better taken to the P/R coronavirus thread.

[XJDenton]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

Well hope you get better soon, and congrats on the full dosage!

[Ben_Jamin]

The data proves we are out of the pandemic, and those not vaccinated don't necessarily need it. This doesn't account for those with antibodies.

Not sure why I'm trying to educate you, but here goes.  Data trends don't prove anything.  They only reveal patterns.  The "Pandemic" is not solely a reflection of case counts in the United States. Do you think the virus knows about boundaries?  Do you think they need to clear customs before coming into the US?  Only the ignorant or arrogant could think that this chart "proves we are out of the pandemic".  If you were to look at this chart in the timeframe of 2016-2019, would your conclusion then be "we'll never experience a pandemic"?.

As a general point, and not specific to you, Jingle, I canNOT wait for the next gun discussion.  I have enough for probably 25, 30 posts (not just from you, but generally). 

Also, anti-bodies =/= immunity.  In fact, anti-bodies resulting from infection are weaker and shorter lasting than the antibodies that vaccines teach our body to develop.

I did not know that.  Learn something new.....   Medical question: how does the body know the difference?

The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.

The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these anitbodies.

The reason why people are concerned about the vaccines is due to if these blueprints won't cause the immune system to make stronger antibodies levels than is needed and may cause more harm than good for the person.

A study published yesterday in JAMA Internal Medicine of 175 patients who recovered from mild COVID-19 reveals wide variation in the levels of antibodies against the novel coronavirus, ranging from very high levels in 2 patients to undetectable levels in 10—but no significant difference in illness duration.

Researchers from Fudan University in Shanghai, China, measured antibody levels in COVID-19 patients released from Shanghai Public Health Clinical Center after being hospitalized from Jan 24 to Feb 26.

Of the 175 patients, 165 (94%) had significantly higher levels of COVID-19 antibodies than 13 uninfected controls in the convalescent phase of infection. Antibody levels were medium-low in 29 patients (17%), medium-high in 69 patients (39%), and high in 25 patients (14%).

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/08/covid-19-antibody-levels-vary-widely-recovered-patients

“Everyone’s immune response is unique to that individual. We have been studying individual immune responses to COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccination, and we are finding that the immediacy, strength, and duration of antibody responses can vary widely based on a multitude of variables,” said Amro Albanna, Co-founder and Chief Executive Officer of Aditxt. “The addition of this new AditxtScore for COVID-19 captures important data on how effective an individual’s antibodies are for inactivating the virus. We believe that as more people become vaccinated or exposed to the virus, AditxtScore for COVID-19 with neutralizing antibody diagnostics adds that next level of precision, delivering more detailed information of the strength of immune response against the virus.”

https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20210712005125/en/Aditxt-Launches-High-Sensitivity-Neutralizing-Antibody-Test-to-Detect-Individual-Immune-Response-to-COVID-19/?feedref=JjAwJuNHiystnCoBq_hl-fqXyBvmekC3Xq1G1wQ7hjMFbZM1ntlKeK-8bUzJqFSVSfe41V1BKA-b6v2ZVrSSNs-dUYKiDvY7XniNSqv88QcY1Ge_vf9QIMZ4alzIf_0HlyE0C4hZhHVlTvKnn0d0vQ==

[XJDenton]

The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.

The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these antibodies.

This is not quite right. The mRNA vaccines in fact work by giving the body instructions to self-synthesise parts of the virus. While that might sound a bit scary on first reading, it really isn't.

Cells basically make parts and replicate by taking RNA (single strand DNA) and using that a blueprint/set of instructions to create whatever bit of cell they want. The mRNA covid vaccines work by injecting viral RNA into the body such that the body's cells read and process that RNA in addition to all the RNA the body usually produces, instead of just making their own parts, will also make the key parts of the virus that provoke an immune response (namely the spike proteins), but ONLY those parts. There is no RNA for other parts of the virus, so the body never sees a full virus (alive, dead, attenuated, or otherwise) as a result of the vaccine.

So the vaccine is not so much a blueprint for the antibodies, but a blueprint for inert, safe bits of the virus that enable your body's immune system to train itself to fight the virus and produce its own effective antibodies. It's like giving your immune system a series of pop quizzes or mock exams before a real test shows up. Sure, you can take the test without prior practice, but you'll probably do worse than you would do otherwise, and you'll be a hell of a lot slower in getting to the right answers.

[Ben_Jamin]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

You should be fine. That is just the normal effects of the second shot. Many people I know got like this when they took their second Moderna shot.

[Ben_Jamin]

The mRNA vaccines have a blueprint in the mRNA that causes your Immune system to create and make the antibodies that are strong enough to defend from covid-19. The issue is are these blueprints good enough to help the immune system create strong antibodies that will defend against the stronger mutations of the virus.

The natural immune system doesn't have a blueprint that forces your immune system to create these anitbodies.

This is not quite right. The mRNA vaccines in fact work by giving the body instructions to self-synthesise parts of the virus.

Cells basically make parts and replicate by taking RNA (single strand DNA) and using that a blueprint/set of instructions to create whatever bit of cell they want. The mRNA covid vaccines work by injecting viral RNA into the body such that the bodies cells, instead of just making their own parts, will also make the key parts of the virus that provoke an immune response (namely the spike proteins), but ONLY those parts. There is no RNA for other parts of the virus, so the body never sees a full virus as a result of the vaccine.

So the vaccine is not so much a blueprint for the antibodies, but a blueprint for inert, safe bits of the virus that enable your body's immune system to train itself to fight the virus. It's like giving your immune system a series of pop quizzes or mock exams before a real test shows up. Sure, you can take the test without prior practice, but you'll probably do worse than you would do otherwise, and you'll be a hell of a lot slower in getting to the right answers.

Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?

How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.

It's new technology that hasn't been used in the masses, and is injected into the body. Do we really know the long-term effects of this vaccine? Or are just having faith in the numbers and models and studies that the mRNA, in the longer term, won't have any effect on the immune system?

See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?

Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work. I have faith that this cord won't break on me that is keeping me safe from falling 50 feet while cleaning the outside window of the CEO. I have faith, this Dialysis and Radiation technology, will cure me. I have faith this novel mRNA vaccine will keep me from dying from Covid-19.

[cramx3]

Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?

How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.

Are you suggesting it's better to get the virus than the vaccine?  No one knows how their immune system will respond, but the numbers show it's much more likely to be a worse response to gain a natural infection than the vaccine.  Also, as a bonus, you are less likely to infect someone you love being vaxxed versus waiting to find out how your natural infection will play out.

See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?

It's great that we have the J&J vaccine then because it's not new technology.  It's a proven effective and safe technology that we've all been given before for other disease.

Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work.

No. It's based on science.

[ProfessorPeart]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

Moderna guy here. The second shot was not fun at all. Got mine around Noon time back in January. By late evening I was not well. I barely slept that night and had a splitting headache that seemed worse than a migraine and felt like I had been beaten. By about 36 hours after the shot, it's like nothing happened.

Now I enjoy my 5G. Not quite sure why all of my money goes to a Democratic super PAC, but it just feels right. I can feel it in my genes. Not to mention all the Microsoft stock I bought. 

[King Postwhore]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

Moderna guy here. The second shot was not fun at all. Got mine around Noon time back in January. By late evening I was not well. I barely slept that night and had a splitting headache that seemed worse than a migraine and felt like I had been beaten. By about 36 hours after the shot, it's like nothing happened.

Now I enjoy my 5G. Not quite sure why all of my money goes to a Democratic super PAC, but it just feels right. I can feel it in my genes. Not to mention all the Microsoft stock I bought. 

We'll have to look for a USB port on you. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?

How is one to know if that natural response is good by not catching the virus? And you won't need to inject a novel vaccine.

Are you suggesting it's better to get the virus than the vaccine?  No one knows how their immune system will respond, but the numbers show it's much more likely to be a worse response to gain a natural infection than the vaccine.  Also, as a bonus, you are less likely to infect someone you love being vaxxed versus waiting to find out how your natural infection will play out.

No, I am not suggesting it is better the get the virus. Though, it is personal, and why you should have visited your doctor before making that choice to get the vaccine.

There are stories of people that are getting bad symptoms, and that is there choice to make. Their decision and consequence is getting the virus and possibly even dying. You whom got the vaccine, should be fine, if the vaccine does indeed do it's job in creating a stronger immune response against the virus.

The thing is as well. It's pretty damn hard to control the people. History shows this many times. Knowing this, it will be very, very, difficult to completely get to zero covid-19, where it will be completely wiped out. If you think it will, then that is a hard rude awakening.

Because due to one's perspectives on medicine, most are relying on their own traditional knowledge, rather than the knowledge of the "Other."
This American Society thinks the world has that same mindset. The reality is, there a many vast mindsets, and these are dealing with Covid-19 in their own ways.

No. It's based on science.

How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.

And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.

[Stadler]

I suppose it is; I don't necessarily have a problem (legally, I don't mean personally, though I don't personally have a problem either) with TD Garden requiring people to be vaccinated.

Sorry for not responding a lot here (busy work day, also a lot of this thread is getting way off track), but isn't this the same kind of activity that is being called "bullying" and "totalitarianism" here? People are being asked by the government and often their workplaces to volunteer to get the vaccine. No one is being forced. Offering private incentives to those who have gotten it is nothing new. In some cases people are able to enjoy additional loosening of restrictions for being able to demonstrate vaccine status.

Well, not to encourage you lumping anyone that's not on the "Yay" Train into one, but as someone that has said "bullying" and "totalitarianism", what you are offering is not the same.  I can't speak for Darkshade, but I've already said I'm in strong favor of incentives for vaccination. As for restrictions and limits, the difference is, private entity/citizen, operating unilaterally, and taking a position is not "bullying" or "totalitarianism".   It crosses the line to "bullying", for me, when it goes beyond a single actor and starts to incorporate influence and consequences. 

It starts to veer into "totalitarianism" when it becomes an administrative mandate from the government.

None of these are absolutes, they are just my guide.

So what am I missing? Where does the meter flip a few notches into totalitarianism? (And no, I didn't click the agitation politics news sites that were linked earlier). You asked earlier what I'd do to meet darkshade in the middle. I have no idea what I could do, because darkshade has been "forced" to do nothing. The whole rollout has been designed to make the skeptics feel as comfortable and coddled as possible that the vaccine will be less dangerous even than taking a tylenol (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/us/politics/johnson-johnson-vaccine-blood-clots-fda-cdc.html) and yet we're still here.

As I said above, the meter flips, for me, at government mandate.  I get it, and I complied, but some of the actions of the governors during the early stages of the pandemic were on the other side of that equation. That doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong, especially in the case of emergency, but the emergency - the overwhelming of our healthcare system - has passed.

As for the latter part of your paragraph, neither one of you should be "forced", except by your compromise.  Why "force" him?  That's not a compromise then.   As as for "coddled", well, I hear that and I just want to drop everything and join you. 

[cramx3]

No. It's based on science.

How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.

And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.

If you don't understand the difference between faith and science, I don't think I can fathom a response.  I mean you kind of wrote the difference, but you still don't seem to understand.  And maybe I'm missing something, but I haven't seen or heard of anyone showing the science against the vaccine and being silenced. Can you share a scientific article that shows this?

[Stadler]

How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.

And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.

Aren't you missing a step, or at the very least, downplaying it?  It's science because those other scientists try to debunk it (in so many words) and cannot.  Real science is the antithesis of faith, in that it gives you the same answer regardless of what your belief system is.   I mean, I see where you are going - we don't need to see it working to know it's there, which is a form of faith - but philosophically there is a huge difference. 

Now, we have to sort of clarify that there is science - as in 2+2 - and science - as in the general theory of relativity, where we are constantly and repeatedly "fine tuning" as more and more data and evidence comes in.

[XJDenton]

Keyword there is probably. Because as the links above explained. Everyone's immune response is unique to that individual. There could be individuals that can pass the test without practice as they're naturally knowledgeable. What if these people naturally just have great immune responses?

This response seems to be based on an ignorance of how the immune system actually functions. People have different levels of innate immunity and that will have an effect on the probability of an infection being able to enter or taking hold, however when an infection does get a foothold (which with a virus like Covid is a matter of when, not if in an unvaccinated population with little spread mitigation), a person who has been exposed to the virus or better a vaccine WILL unequivocally have an advantage over a person who is seeing the virus/proteins for the first time.  In an unexposed/vaccinated individual, the body is relying initially on the B-lymphocytes (antigen producing cells) that will be producing the antigens randomly until they find an antigen that matches the specific threat, before they can start differentiating into the plasma cells and start pumping out antigens. This initial search is a stochastic process.

The immune response will ALWAYS be quicker in a vaccinated person since there will be existing memory B cells that IMMEDIATELY differentiate into plasma cells to produce antigens.

It's new technology that hasn't been used in the masses, and is injected into the body. Do we really know the long-term effects of this vaccine?

Not in practical terms, but neither do we have any knowledge of what the long term effects of unchecked covid infection are. Long COVID is a thing, and we have no idea if an initial infection may lie dormant or resurface (like shingles or Measles encephalitis). When it comes to risk evaluation, vaccines are are demonstrably lower risk than unmitigated spread of COVID. And if you are worried about novel technology, there are plenty of vaccines based on "mature" vaccine technologies.

Or are just having faith in the numbers and models and studies that the mRNA, in the longer term, won't have any effect on the immune system?

Trust is not faith. We trust in the models, we trust the experts that analyse possible failure modes or test cases which would show a deficiency in their models, we trust the multiple sets of trials show how safe the vaccines are and what dangers there are (if any) and we trust in the data that shows they are working with minimal side effects in the vaccinated population.

See, it's hard to force people to take a vaccine that is novel and is brand new technology, and if everyone's immune response is different, how is one to know, FOR SURE, these won't have long term effect 5 years down the road?

How do you know your airbag won't misfire and fling shrapnel into your eyes? How do you know the coffee machine isn't miswired and has the entire case at 120V? You don't but again, it comes down to evaluating the probable risk. And the vaccines ARE safer than catching COVID.

Any remedy or vaccine is based on Faith that it will work.

No, its based on data that shows it demonstrably DOES work.

I have faith that this cord won't break on me that is keeping me safe from falling 50 feet while cleaning the outside window of the CEO.

No. You trust that a engineer did the stress and yield strength calculations on the rope and carabiner, the factory and the federal or national agencies that enforce inspection and material standards did their job to ensure the rope performs to the required specifications, and you trust in the training of either yourself or the rope operator that they use it correctly.

[Skeever]

Gentle reminder that some of these discussions may be better taken to the P/R coronavirus thread.

Oh god there's more of this??? 

[Ben_Jamin]

How is Science not based on faith? Doesn't the scientist have faith his experiment will prove his hypothesis correct? Science itself is not definitive, it's based on many experiments that prove their hypothesis. And there are other scientists that will challenge that experiment result, by creating their own experiment that is set out to prove that hypothesis false.

And what they are doing is silencing the opposing Scientists that are setting out to prove the hypothesis and results are not correct. While, these other "experts" are screaming dissent at these quack doctors, whom know nothing about science.

Aren't you missing a step, or at the very least, downplaying it?  It's science because those other scientists try to debunk it (in so many words) and cannot.  Real science is the antithesis of faith, in that it gives you the same answer regardless of what your belief system is.   I mean, I see where you are going - we don't need to see it working to know it's there, which is a form of faith - but philosophically there is a huge difference. 

Now, we have to sort of clarify that there is science - as in 2+2 - and science - as in the general theory of relativity, where we are constantly and repeatedly "fine tuning" as more and more data and evidence comes in.

I replied in the P/R Thread.

[wolfking]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

[hunnus2000]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

You do realize your not getting actual COVID right? Think of it like working out with heavy weights and being really sore the next couple of days. Would that deter you from exercise? (Prolly not the best example but hey, it's all I got).

[Ben_Jamin]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.

Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.

Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.

And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.

Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.

[wolfking]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

You do realize your not getting actual COVID right? Think of it like working out with heavy weights and being really sore the next couple of days. Would that deter you from exercise? (Prolly not the best example but hey, it's all I got).

You do realize I'm not a total fuckwit right?

[wolfking]

At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all.  Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit.  Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there. 

[King Postwhore]

99.9% of all doctors will tell you to get the shots.

[wolfking]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.

Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.

Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.

And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.

Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

[wolfking]

99m9% of all doctors will tell you to get the shots.

I haven't been to a GP in over 10 years. 

[King Postwhore]

And maybe your in good health. The doctor would still tell you to get the vaccine. 

[hunnus2000]

At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all.  Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit.  Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.

I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?

[cramx3]

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

TBH, while we all think of ourselves first and I think that's totally fair.  Once you recognize you are unlikely to have a serious side effect from the vaccine (you only mentioned you are young and healthy, which is great, but some people have known adverse side effects to vaccines from prior experience or have known allergies or other illness that prevents them from being vaccinated).  Thinking about others should be next in line and a reason to put up with the potential short term side effects which includes helping those people who legitimately can't be vaccinated by vaccinating yourself.  Also, many people don't have side effects at all, so please take that into account too.

A lot of healthy people can carry the virus without even knowing and spreading it to others they care about without knowing.  I think about this a lot, well did think about this, which is how would I feel if my parents got seriously sick/died and they contact traced it back to me?  I've got to imagine you know someone in your personal life who is susceptible to covid even if you are not.  Luckily most people I know, including myself and my parents who were very on the edge, are vaccinated so this worry doesn't really exist anymore for me.

[TAC]

At the moment, I'm not pro or anti vax at all.  Just very skeptical and luckily my age and health means I'm happy to see how things play out for a bit.  Again, we are seeing ramifications from the virus, but nothing like over there.

I don't get why you want to get the vaccine but what would it take to convince you? I really want to know. Is the hesitancy religion? Politics? Ignorance? I could understand this mindset in say March of this year. But we have too much data about the efficacy of the vaccines so hopefully without chastising you, what is your reasoning ?

You quoted his answer.

[Ben_Jamin]

Btw I had yesterday my second Moderna shot.... and it kicked me down.

Done it early in the noon, had a very minor and often forgettable hurt to the arm, managed to watch the Euro Cup final without problems... and last night I was continously awaking either with shivers or sweating and eventually I developed a fever and a headache.

They say this happen with Moderna's second shot, I hope tomorrow I will be alright 'cause I don't want to do a second day of this!

This sort of story makes me even more apprehensive to get a jab.

None of us know your health. You may experience the same side effect symptoms, and you may not even feel these side effects at all. It won't be known until you take that vaccine. It's why it's your personal decision whether to take it or not. As they say, the benefits outweigh the risks.

Just go to your doctor and get their professional opinion on the vaccine. They're the one that knows your personal health information and is the one who guides you to have better overall health. And if you don't trust that doctor, then go to other doctors and get their professional opinion and come to a consensus.

Your body, is your body and you only get one. Many have chosen to take it, as they see the benefits outweigh the risks.

And you really don't have to be so upfront with your decision either. Many are voluntarily choosing to tell the world and show their pride in taking the vaccine. As we live in a world where everyone has to let the world know what they're eating, at which restaurant they're eating at, who was their waiter, whether he is cute, etc. as if people are so invested and interested in these exclamations.

Thinking for yourself is not easy, and is where many tough, life changing decisions are made, as you are the one in charge of the life you were gifted with living. There are consequences for every one of these decisions, and we being human, must accept these consequences and face them head on as they are the results and effects of the decision we chose to make. There are many instances where one man has created a world-wide effect that affected many aspects of the world. It's why I find it insane how much control 1 business owner has. Their decisions affect the entire world.

I find thinking for myself quite easy truthfully.

 

For some it doesn't come easy, it's why I worded it that way.

Being skeptical is fine. Skepticism is a human instinct that it does when it fears the unknown. It's like a defense mechanism.

The hollering of "we are right and they are wrong" does nothing to help this skepticism. It creates more confusion as one doesn't know whether who is lying and who is telling the truth.

One thing I am finding out, is that this can be treated as an entire social experiment. We are seeing certain psychological effects and mentalities take hold and play out in real time. People are really facing a severe mental crisis, as they come to the consensus and analyze all the data to make a life-time decision of whether to put this new mRNA vaccine technology into our one and only body. And these decisions are all related to one's own beliefs, truths, and faiths. Many are facing challenges to these 3 things and the thinking is mentally taking a toll on people.