Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Stadler]

I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.

I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace.

I don't think the way people work is quite so nuts and bolts.

Flying is far, far safer than driving but I have yet to talk to a person that doesn't get at least a little nervous about it. The airlines don't help themselves by making planes a claustrophobic environment, but, fundamentally, driving is familiar and feels like it's in your control. Flying is unfamiliar and you have no impact on the outcome.

With disease, generally, as a population we understood that basic sanitation and not being around people when you're sick are the best you can do and otherwise disease is a part of life. By hyping up asymptomatic transmission and making COVID seem like more of a general threat to the population than it actually was, that implicit understanding was broken. An actual accounting of how many lives were saved by this, if any, I would guess is years away. I've seen no encouraging data. The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

Well, all of you owe it to yourselves to read Dave Ropeik's book "How Risky Is It Anyway?"  We as humans are HORRIBLE at comparatively assessing risk.   HORRIBLE.   The book starts off with the anecdote of the woman - overweight, by the way (it's relevant) - who was fighting tooth and nail to have her kid's school shut down because TRACE levels of a contaminant were found in a random air sample taken in the library.  WELL below any prescribed limits for remediation, but she was ADAMANT.   And the author recounts her going outside for a break in the hearings to chain smoke two cigarettes on break, along with her weight a risk he put at, if I remember correctly, something like 10,000 times the chance to get cancer than the contaminant in the school.  She was oblivious.

I've given up trying to ascribe any relative reason to discussions like these.  Who knows, and frankly, who CARES why someone rates something of "more risk" to them than not, even if it's not accurate?  I'm scared of heights and spiders.  So?  I'm probably not going to die of either one, but I'm still scared.   So?   There's not a subject in the P/R thread where someone isn't either ignoring or glossing over numbers of SOME kind.   

[Grappler]

I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.

Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.

I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.

That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).

2020 was very hard for us - the kids were 4 and 2 at the time and my youngest wouldn't keep a mask on.  He almost NEVER left the house for an entire year, aside from car rides and visits to grandparents'.  The original strain of covid was really strong and scary, so we all followed "orders" and stayed closer to home.  Vacations were cancelled and we didn't take the kids to very many places that summer.  I felt like my world closed in around me with my job, family, and home all needing my attention at the same time, and while I didn't seek professional help (and probably should have), I can definitely look back at the strain on my family and completely acknowledge that I did not handle it well at all. 

We've moved on though - 2021 was much better for us, and 2022 should be as close to pre-pandemic life for us as we can.  My daughter's school voted to be mask optional starting tomorrow, so she finally gets to experience school without a mask, and we've started ditching them in public a little ahead of the relaxation of the mandate at the end of the month

[ReaPsTA]

I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.

If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.

Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?

I think all of this is human nature though and can't be changed. You can control the worst of it (not dumping toxic waste into the river), but people are what they are. It would be nice if you didn't need money to motivate people, but if it's not money then the only reason anyone does anything is the threat of violence if they don't. Trying to perfect human nature always leads to some sort of tragedy. And, at least personally, I've never seen anyone's vision of utopia that I like. You have to allow for a certain amount of degeneracy in order for life to have any excitement.

[ProfessorPeart]

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

This pretty much describes me as well. It's why I will never ask for access to the PR forum. I can literally script what many people here will say because no one changes, they just recycle the same talking points ad nauseum.

Sometimes I will try and then realize what a waste of time it is so I then resort to trying to play comic relief by posting something humorous around the discussion at hand, like the Urine Treatment or that idiot from Kentucky saying that Medicare gives you Covid.

[Stadler]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

Another (two) statements that bum me out.  I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show".   It's mostly respectful.  Honest question:  what's the desired outcome here?

Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.

Well, no boners here, I can tell you.  But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile.   I ask only for understanding.  And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given.  I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from.  Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from.  I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.

For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding.  There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.  Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?"  Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity.   I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.

The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are.   A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance.  Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be.

You can't honestly tell me that you don't get at least a little bit of a chubby from a good argument..

Okay. Maybe. 

[Stadler]

I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.

Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.

I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.

That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).

I'm just reading this... not that you need any affirmation from me, but very proud of you.  I'm a strong proponent of therapy (real therapy) and I know for me, I've been relying on my therapist a lot more over the last 18 months or so, and I'm better for it, by a long shot. 

Respect, and I hope the process continues to be a positive one for you. 

[Stadler]

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

This pretty much describes me as well. It's why I will never ask for access to the PR forum. I can literally script what many people here will say because no one changes, they just recycle the same talking points ad nauseum.

Sometimes I will try and then realize what a waste of time it is so I then resort to trying to play comic relief by posting something humorous around the discussion at hand, like the Urine Treatment or that idiot from Kentucky saying that Medicare gives you Covid.

Well, as a general proposition, and someone for whom more voices are better than fewer, I would hope at some point you'd reconsider.  You (and Lonestar) have a lot to offer, and for someone like me who is as interested in learning as anything else, I get a lot out of the opposing points of view.  Again, if "getting people to agree with you" is the goal, you're probably good where you are, because you'll be disappointed.  But even just to soften some of the divisiveness would be a help to everyone.

[Ben_Jamin]

I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.

If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.

Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?

I think all of this is human nature though and can't be changed. You can control the worst of it (not dumping toxic waste into the river), but people are what they are. It would be nice if you didn't need money to motivate people, but if it's not money then the only reason anyone does anything is the threat of violence if they don't. Trying to perfect human nature always leads to some sort of tragedy. And, at least personally, I've never seen anyone's vision of utopia that I like. You have to allow for a certain amount of degeneracy in order for life to have any excitement.

I understand all of that. But all that, is the outcome of a people expanding their dominance over the world and establishing their perceptions of that utopia upon others whom did not agree. Because of this, what we are living today is the outcome of all of that. There was knowledge lost and forgotten, things destroyed, and many other forms of life lost due to those established perceptions asserting dominance of the land.

The truth is that the people that did it, are but one of the many various humans that roamed the Earth. Everyone only knows one perspective, while the many others are ignored or have been forgotten.

Think about what would have been here still if not for the selfish behaviors of humans.

What is surprising is the lack of culture among Americans and others, and it's fascinating to see how much culture influences the perceptions of life, attitudes, behaviors, and mindsets of humans.

Look at the cultures that did not have "money" but still found a way to gather payment for their work. Some of what is known as "work" was just essential every day obligations and responsibilities of a person. Think about this, the arts and crafts of Native American people is the culture, and it's fascinating how these turned from every day use items into items to be displayed and not utilized for it's purpose within the culture. Cultural appropriation is interesting in how dominance of another culture can assimilate people. Psychological manipulation is utilized when assimilating people into the dominant culture.

Why would I pay someone for something I could easily do myself? Laziness? Selfishness?

Utopias are pretty much people trying to perfect the human species. Humans will never be perfect and humans are not Gods, even though humans try to achieve that power.

Humans need to understand that everyone is human and will and does things that all humans are capable of accomplishing. One person's accomplishments has long lasting effects because it shows that a human being is capable of achieving such a task.

That is the premise of Dream Theaters new album. Take a chance though you may die, seeing a view from the top of the world.

[bosk1]

...But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile.   I ask only for understanding.  And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given.  I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from.  Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from.  I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.

For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding.  There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.

Sadly, this is what is more often than not sadly lacking in discourse.  Rather than seeking understanding, the spoken or unspoken position of many is simply, "I'm obviously right, and if I can't persuade you to agree with me, I don't have time for you." 

[Ben_Jamin]

...But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile.   I ask only for understanding.  And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given.  I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from.  Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from.  I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.

For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding.  There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.

Sadly, this is what is more often than not sadly lacking in discourse.  Rather than seeking understanding, the spoken or unspoken position of many is simply, "I'm obviously right, and if I can't persuade you to agree with me, I don't have time for you."

Would that be considered patience? Being patient with someone who doesn't understand.

[cramx3]

My mom got covid.  She's got bad body aches as her main symptom.  My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms.  Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine.  Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.

[Stadler]

My mom got covid.  She's got bad body aches as her main symptom.  My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms.  Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine.  Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.

With you, Marc.   Good luck and I hope they get better soon.  I know for my parents (84 and 82) they definitely had symptoms, but nothing incapacitating, thank god. 

[ReaperKK]

My mom got covid.  She's got bad body aches as her main symptom.  My father tested negative but he almost seems more sick with cold symtoms.  Luckily, it seems from the early stages, they should recover and be fine.  Glad they are vaxxed or things could be much worse considering age and health.

I hope they get better soon! What's crazy is I got Covid a few weeks back, tested positive and my wife never did despite her getting sick. My brother and his gf had the same thing, both were sick, she was positive and he was negativ .

[cramx3]

Thanks fellas, and yeah, this isn't the first time I've heard or experienced someone sick and their companion also sick but not positive.  Such as my gf, or my sister and her husband.  It's just weird like that.

[TAC]

That blows. Hopefully they get past it well enough.

[ReaPsTA]

https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/news/19931641.covid-data-will-not-published-concerns-misrepresented-anti-vaxxers/?ref=twtrec

Public Health Scotland will stop publishing data on covid deaths and hospitalisations by vaccination status - over concerns it is misrepresented by anti-vaxx campaigners.

The public health watchdog announced the change in policy in its most recent covid statistical report, saying the frequency and content of the data would be reviewed.

Instead, officials will focus on publishing more robust and complex vaccine effectiveness data.

PHS officials said significant concerns about the data being misused deliberately by anti-vaccination campaigners is behind the move.

The report published on Wednesday will be the last weekly publication to include the data on infection rates among the vaccinated and unvaccinated.

It must be cool to be able to be able to publish "robust and complex vaccine effectiveness data" and not provide the raw numbers to the public for them to be able to audit your work.

[ProfessorPeart]

Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.

[Grappler]

Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.

That sucks - I'm pretty sure my daughter caught it from school too.  She got it the week after they returned from Christmas break in January, when Omicron was spreading like crazy.  The school would usually have 3-5 kids out with covid each week.  That week they had 24 students out, and then 29 more the week she came down with it.  Not much anyone can do but deal with the illness.  I hope he feels better!


I thought this was hilarious - our school board met Monday night to vote on making masks optional.  A lot of parents got together to speak in favor of the plan, with only one showing up wishing to retain masks, as his kid is immunocompromised and deserves to go to school without having to risk infection.   So one mom posted this in their private Facebook group:




I've never seen a better definition of irony - a parent going to protest covid mitigations in school who can't go because she's positive for covid because their family doesn't follow covid mitigation strategies.   

[TAC]

Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.

Oh man. Hopefully it clears quickly for him.

[Stadler]

Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.

That sucks - I'm pretty sure my daughter caught it from school too.  She got it the week after they returned from Christmas break in January, when Omicron was spreading like crazy.  The school would usually have 3-5 kids out with covid each week.  That week they had 24 students out, and then 29 more the week she came down with it.  Not much anyone can do but deal with the illness.  I hope he feels better!


I thought this was hilarious - our school board met Monday night to vote on making masks optional.  A lot of parents got together to speak in favor of the plan, with only one showing up wishing to retain masks, as his kid is immunocompromised and deserves to go to school without having to risk infection.   So one mom posted this in their private Facebook group:




I've never seen a better definition of irony - a parent going to protest covid mitigations in school who can't go because she's positive for covid because their family doesn't follow covid mitigation strategies.   

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

[ReaPsTA]

Well, my son is running a 100 degree fever and is very achy. Considering school is the only place he goes, literally, if he has Covid it came from there. Still getting daily emails about kids testing positive every day. May have finally caught up with him. Wife is taking him to be tested now.

Very unfortunate wish you the best of luck.

[Grappler]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation. 

[Stadler]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

Okay, Alanis.   

[ReaPsTA]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

[jingle.boy]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

Ironic. 

[hefdaddy42]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols.  I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."

[ReaPsTA]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols.  I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."

But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?

It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.

[Grappler]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols.  I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."

But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?

It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.

It doesn't matter how the family caught covid.  The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.

Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so.  Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.

[Stadler]

I say this for macro purposes, to promote understanding and compromise, not to argue the "anti-mitigation" standpoint (I wear a mask where appropriate and always have a mask with me, as well as being vaccinated and boosted) but you're making a connection they don't make.   Someone in my family is in that boat; they don't really adhere to the protocols, aren't vaccinated, but to them the goal isn't to avoid COVID at all costs.  They got it and to them it was a bout of the flu.   TO THEM, the risk/reward of all these protocols versus a week of aches, pains and fever isn't determinative.  There's no real irony there for them.  It's the way things are "supposed to go".

I completely understand that to "THEM", it is just normal circumstances.  But that doesn't eliminate any irony from the situation.

I genuinely don't understand.

"Sorry I can't come to the meeting to protest the COVID protocols.  I didn't obey the protocols and caught COVID, so I can't come."

But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made. Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?

It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.

That's actually more ironic, if we're really digging in to the literal meaning of the word.

[ReaPsTA]

It doesn't matter how the family caught covid.  The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.

Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so.  Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.

I mean I don't know I know I'm being hyper rational but it seems kinda crappy to find amusement in someone getting sick unless it's absurd (lol, who hasn't gotten COVID at this point?), or unless they brought it upon themselves or deserved it somehow.

[Stadler]

It doesn't matter how the family caught covid.  The fact that they wanted to protest covid mitigations yet were positive for covid and couldn't into the school board meeting because of their positive test is the irony.

Also, it is completely possible to make an educated guess that if they are fighting that hard against their children wearing a mask in school, they likely also do not wear masks when in public, despite a mandate within our state to do so.  Not that any of that matters at all with regard to my finding the entire situation funny and ironic.

I mean I don't know I know I'm being hyper rational but it seems kinda crappy to find amusement in someone getting sick unless it's absurd (lol, who hasn't gotten COVID at this point?), or unless they brought it upon themselves or deserved it somehow.

I'm not pointing fingers at Grappler or anyone here in particular, but there are a group of people in general for whom "not wearing a mask" MEANS they brought it on themselves, and that they DO deserve it.

[hefdaddy42]

But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made.

I would say that it's a pretty easy inference to make, especially if they are hell-bent against such protocols.  Who is more likely to catch it?

Is it also ironic if someone who follows the COVID protocols gets COVID even though they followed the protocols?

Maybe.  Depends on the conversation, I guess.

It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.

But a lot of it CAN be known.  Your insistence otherwise doesn't make it so.  It's not a random mystery.

The best way to safeguard against the disease is vaccination and booster, and wearing masks in certain situations is also beneficial.  People that refuse all of that, and protest against the practices, are already moralizing.

EDIT: NO ONE deserves it.  "Bringing it on themselves" and "deserving it" are two different things.

[Stadler]

Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".   We would, presumably, not suggest that first line responders and healthcare workers are "bringing it on" because they're knowingly and willingly subjecting themselves to increased exposure rates, right?   I don't think so.  I can very much avoid masks and distancing without increasing my infection odds if, for example, I work full time out of the house, have no kids and get my groceries delivered.   Rare circumstances, sure, and that woman was clear she was going to be AT the meeting, but still.  The judgement to further an agenda is not changing any minds.

[ReaPsTA]

But to me it would only be ironic if disobeying the protocols necessarily lead to her catching COVID (and her knowing that was the case), which seems like an inference that can't really be made.

I would say that it's a pretty easy inference to make, especially if they are hell-bent against such protocols.  Who is more likely to catch it?

Neither. I don't think cloth masks do anything. COVID particles are smaller than the fiber gaps in cloth masks. At best, they stop about 50% of them from escaping the mask every time you breath out. But if you spent even a minute in a room with someone you've both breathed out multiple times and hotboxed the room with your COVID particles. I think you're a Cigar guy right? It's like a cigar lounge. The moment you step into one it's a haze. COVID particles in the air do the same thing. I am aware of no randomized, controlled studies that show cloth masks do anything except for a slight improvement regarding transmission rates in older people. But this is the Bangladeshi study where COVID cases were self-reported.

It's why this whole idea of linking catching a highly contagious disease to peoples' behaviors makes no sense to me in the first place. It causes moralizing and trying to make value and retrospective judgements about something that can't actually be known.

But a lot of it CAN be known.  Your insistence otherwise doesn't make it so.  It's not a random mystery.

Let's assume for the sake of argument masks actually do something. In the real world, the outcomes are seemingly random. One of the first times I went in public around a crowd I got COVID. I know someone who's gone into work around hundreds of other people for almost two years, gets tested regularly, and has never gotten it. I just don't think the causation can be found/implied.

The best way to safeguard against the disease is vaccination and booster, and wearing masks in certain situations is also beneficial.  People that refuse all of that, and protest against the practices, are already moralizing.

If they're not telling you that you can't wear a mask or get a COVID shot, how is it moralizing?

[jingle.boy]

Again, since I feel I have to keep saying it, I am personally very much FOR masking, distancing and vaccination where it makes sense. Having said that, I feel pretty strongly that we should reserve the types of judgments we're seeing here about "deserving" and "bringing it on".

I wouldn't say that I "judge" people, and never think people deserve it, but at this point, 2 years into it, anyone who chooses not to take the recommended and reasonable precautions - while very much free to make those choices - will get not sympathy from me should those choices and actions lead to unfavorable consequences.  It's not judgement as much as it is lack of sympathy - at least, from my perspective.  Choices have consequences (both good and bad).  Those that own the choice, also own the consequence.

Look, you (royal) go outside in February rain without an umbrella or a coat, then getting wet is something you brought on yourself.  I'm not judging you for it, but I've got no sympathy for your situation.  And please Bill... no need to find the situations (but what if it's because the smoke detector went off at 2am?) where it's quite reasonable.  For once, just go along with the point.    I'm speaking generally.