Coronavirus Thread v.2

[King Postwhore]

The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.

[Stadler]

The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.

Which intuitively runs counter to the thankfully-not-as-prevalent-as-it-could-have-been trope of "liberals vaccinate, conservatives deny" nonsense.

[lonestar]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

[Harmony]

There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people.  We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all.  As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes.  And probably in many of our own homes. 

I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed.  We are all certainly forever changed.

[jingle.boy]

There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people.  We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all.  As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes.  And probably in many of our own homes. 

I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed.  We are all certainly forever changed.

I don't think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.

[Ben_Jamin]

There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people.  We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all.  As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes.  And probably in many of our own homes. 

I think very few people will emerge completed unscathed.  We are all certainly forever changed.

And I see that within many people. What affects me is that fact that it has mentally changed others.

But also, realizations are not always pretty. Those revelations can cause one to question oneself and analyze their entire lifestyle choices and decisions. The lifestyle questions of, is this worth it? Was it worth it?

What helped me a lot was listening to music with a positive message. Those that say, "Even when things get chaotic, everything will be alright."

The strength of ones will is dependent on their mindset in times of turmoil and struggle, keeping that positive attitude and smile while the world is burning behind you. No matter what the outcome is, you never give up to those mental challenges and try and remain positive about your outlook of life.

Edit: I wanted to add that some of these mental health tolls can be self-induced.

[Ben_Jamin]

There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people.  We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all.  As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes.  And probably in many of our own homes. 

I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed.  We are all certainly forever changed.

I don't think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.

If you think it will just happen suddenly in our lifetimes, that's like believing Jesus the savior is returning sometime soon.

There are many, many things that have to happen first before that divisiveness "goes away". That division is based on people's mentalities, and some are cultural based. Every place on this Earth has divisiveness and disagreements. Not everyone will agree on the same issues as everyone has their own opinions on matters.

If everyone was allowed to run for office and get the chance to be elected as an official will see this very thing. There are many great mindsets out there that have some great ideas, but are not wanting to deal with the hassle and baggage that comes with it.

Everything has baggage and these things are not simple. They're complicated and requires a lot of work to achieve those "dreams" of a united utopia.

[Cool Chris]

My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?

[ReaPsTA]

@Cool Chris that story is indeed sad and I have the same questions you do.

[XJDenton]

The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.

When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.

[King Postwhore]

The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.

When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.

Where I live, its been the opposite.   News, commercials pushing for those to get the vaccine.

[lonestar]

My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?

I get it... That was definitely me as a kid. I did everything in my power to stay invisible. If I can't be seen, then can't be hurt.

[Skeever]

As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.

"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."

Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.

What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?

This is what I reference as "cherry-picking".  Finding the data that supports one's ideas/view in obscure places.

In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.

And please, can we stop with saying "cherry picking"? Either what I'm saying is broadly mis-representing some larger point or it is not. If it is, then why.

You seem to be implying that you distrust (at best) or know better (at worst) than an entire medical and scientific community, and recognized best practice for decades.  Seems odd... but ok.

Absolutely a matter of distrust. Even if they are good at science, everyone is subject to the incentives they operate under. I trust not the incentives under which mainstream science operates. To me a lot of what's happening with mRNA vaccine hype is string theory all over again.

Exactly the point I keep harping on, which has apparently gotten me on Reapsta's "ignore list".

Not my intention.

And what's the alternative? Some guy on Youtube? Guys like Malone? Articles that have not yet met any industry standard?

I'd trust either more than our public health authorities. But again I'd read multiple sources (that aren't deliberately lying to you) and draw your own conclusion.

In Googling this stuff I've seen links to studies that disagree with my opinion that don't seem to be written by liars. I find they tend to study from small sample sizes or weird obscure things in the data, but they do exist.

But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent.  Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.

In fairness, you've kind of got me. But the issue to me is that any consensus seeking organization by nature cannot reach a good result. Competition is inefficient but it's the only way, at a societal scale, to produce valuable/accurate results.

Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.

I got sent to do WFH in March of 2020. Would never want to go back to the office. Sorry they're sending you back.

Also agreed as to the aspect of "oh guys we care so much about COVID lol just kidding it's no longer profitable." My company was giving extra pay to certain workers during the height of COVID, then took away that extra pay as well as the extra time off even as it was talking about how we still need to fight the pandemic. Talking out of both sides of their mouths!

Absolutely appreciate this response, and it confirms what I've suspected all along. We see this from a similar angle (more than you and others might expect), but it just comes down to me thinking it's safer to roll with the tide, and you thinking it's safer to roll against it. I can understand both points of view, but a libertarian I am not. In fact, I'd trust our healthcare system a lot more if we were in France or Taiwan. So I'm sure we could have a lot of good conversations on a number of topics down the line 

But it hardly matters for people of a more libertarian bent.  Because it's not about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that we can work toward improving it (or them)". It's about "take shots at the consensus (or regulations) so that people reject it and it can stop placing artificial limits on the competitive market". I guess that's more of a PR topic, though.

Funny enough, but there's someone here of a more libertarian bent.  I'm not interested in "taking shots" at anyone, and in fact that is what I'm trying to avoid.  For every "shot" from a libertarian bent, there's an equal and opposite "shot" from the consensus.  We're gaslighting. We're cherry-picking.  We're nose picking.  We're whatever.   

Back on the main topic, this is my third week back at the office and I just feel pretty done. Especially since I've already had COVID, as had the son I was desperately trying to protect. I'll keep getting boosters with my flu shot and wearing masks as long as asked, but I really feel the psychology of being told to go back to the office has worn on my a bit already, and I can imagine how that's the case for people who never had the ability to WFH. There's something that just really had me taking it more seriously when the company was saying "this is so important to us, we want you to work from home". I'm still following the guidance to the best of my ability, but working in an environment where that no longer plays is definitely having an effect on my willpower.

Willpower for what? Staying up with the protocols?  I know having been in the office last week for a couple days, and watching how most do (or don't) stick with the plan, I can tell you that in the group environment, it's difficult to stay disciplined.   And a week before that, we were in a group meeting and the entire group - 8-ish people - agreed that we were distanced enough and all vaccinated, and so we didn't require each other to wear masks. Someone else came in about halfway through the day and after about 45 minutes made an issue of the lack of masks.  It's hard to know what IS right versus what just "seems" right.

First paragraph: I've got no idea what you are saying there man.
Second paragraph: Willpower to do more than check the box. And if protocols do break down I'm unlikely to care much.

[hefdaddy42]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

My daughter said something very moving today. I told her the mask requirement for school would be ending soon and I asked how she felt about it. She was unsure about the timing of it, and thought some kids would rather keep their masks on, because they might be shy or just more comfortable hiding their faces. I was a shy kid (and became a shy adult). If this happened when I was in school I could have been someone who would prefer wear a mask even once the requirement was lifted (it would have hid the acne too!). But to think a kid would feel more comfortable hiding their face just made me feel sad, to think someone would rather face the world and all it had to offer behind a mask. How would that child grow and develop, foster friends, create intimate relationships?

I'm sure that's a hard realization to hear from your kid, but there have literally always been kids going through school who felt like this.

[Stadler]

There is no way to over-state the mental health toll the pandemic has taken on people.  We have only just begun to grasp the enormity of it all.  As we move back into "normal" life (what is that again?) the cracks will continue and develop into fissures right before our eyes.  And probably in many of our own homes. 

I think very few people will emerge completely unscathed.  We are all certainly forever changed.

I don't think the divisiveness of society will go away in any of our lifetimes. That is hear to stay. Sadly.

That statement - which I don't realistically disagree with - bums me out, though.  We HAVE tackled issues of that magnitude and moved the needle.  It's really a matter of will at this point.  I tend to think we LIKE the divisiveness, as much as we lament it.  I don't really have that gene, necessarily, but I get the impression that some people get personal satisfaction, get self-worth, out of "conquering" those that disagree with their world view.  It's clearly affirming to some people.

And the funny thing is, the implications of that are staggering.  If you - random John Q. Public member - get energy, get power, get affirmation, out of pwning someone who is of the opposite party as you, something that is likely a combination of nature and nuture, something that is likely at least to some degree out of the individuals purely conscious control, why is it so hard to fathom that some other member of society, let's say Joseph Q. Public, gets that same jolt from pwning someone of the opposite gender, or sexual preference, or race?  If we can advocate for equality on the identity politics front, why can't we either advocate for equality of the POLITICS front, or better yet, recognize that for some, their POLITICAL identity is just that?

For someone like me, sure, the mechanics are objective; whether we hold taxes, or raise taxes a little, or raise taxes a lot, that's a tactical thing that I can control and isn't tied to my being.  But I certainly didn't choose to be a libertarian in world view.   I didn't choose to have the experiences I did or be born into the family I did, which all reinforced my beliefs regarding personal autonomy, any more than I chose to be attracted to females that have pretty smiles and long hair?   So why is it any more proper to ridicule me or send me to the "out-group" for either?

[ReaPsTA]

The % of those not vaccinated is higher with the 50 years old and younger group.

When a lot of news media has been (incorrectly) communicating the message that COVID does not affect young people since the start of the pandemic, then this might be expected.

Where I live, its been the opposite.   News, commercials pushing for those to get the vaccine.

Can only speak to the US experience, but yes our media has hyped up how COVID can affect young people even though, looking at the data, it really doesn't. I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID. I know that if it is you or your kid that being on the wrong side of the statistics feels very personal to you. But if we started making all our decisions that way as a society we would become paralyzed.

[ReaPsTA]

Absolutely appreciate this response, and it confirms what I've suspected all along. We see this from a similar angle (more than you and others might expect), but it just comes down to me thinking it's safer to roll with the tide, and you thinking it's safer to roll against it. I can understand both points of view, but a libertarian I am not. In fact, I'd trust our healthcare system a lot more if we were in France or Taiwan. So I'm sure we could have a lot of good conversations on a number of topics down the line 

lol the US healthcare system. Neither a free market nor fully regulated. All the drawbacks of both and the benefits of neither. I was scheduling a service recently and they told me what they expected the price to be. I was actually shocked.

If I am around the forums more I look forward to your posts popping up as well.

[lonestar]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

[Stadler]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

Another (two) statements that bum me out.  I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show".   It's mostly respectful.  Honest question:  what's the desired outcome here? 

[cramx3]

Honestly thought most of the recent debate was fair even if I don't personally agree and think some things said are a bit bogus, I don't think anyone came across as an asshole or anything like that.  Didn't seem like a shit show to me either, just respectful disagreements for the most part. 

[lonestar]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

Another (two) statements that bum me out.  I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show".   It's mostly respectful.  Honest question:  what's the desired outcome here?

Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.

[XJDenton]

I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.

I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace.

[ReaPsTA]

I looked up the total COVID deaths for people under 40 in the US and it's less than the amount of car accident deaths we have every year. We all get into cars without a second thought, yet we are petrified of what happens to young people if they get COVID.

I guess that is the kind of confidence 200 Billion a year road infrastructure spending and federal mandates to wear a safety mask belt affords the populace.

I don't think the way people work is quite so nuts and bolts.

Flying is far, far safer than driving but I have yet to talk to a person that doesn't get at least a little nervous about it. The airlines don't help themselves by making planes a claustrophobic environment, but, fundamentally, driving is familiar and feels like it's in your control. Flying is unfamiliar and you have no impact on the outcome.

With disease, generally, as a population we understood that basic sanitation and not being around people when you're sick are the best you can do and otherwise disease is a part of life. By hyping up asymptomatic transmission and making COVID seem like more of a general threat to the population than it actually was, that implicit understanding was broken. An actual accounting of how many lives were saved by this, if any, I would guess is years away. I've seen no encouraging data. The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

[orcus116]

Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.

[ReaPsTA]

Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.

My airbag protects you. Your airbag protects me.

[ReaPsTA]

The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.

Touche.

But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.

Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.

[XJDenton]

Personally I blame the people driving around in unvaccinated cars.

My airbag protects you. Your airbag protects me.

Airbags not so much, but ABS, CAS, ESC and TCS all do.

[Ben_Jamin]

I actually blame ourselves and our selfishness. Not with just disease prevention, but also the selfish things we humans do to the ecosystem of the Earth. We are selfish beings that take and take with a regard for our own species and treat the other living organisms on this Earth as lesser beings. It's even gotten to where humans treat each other as lesser beings based on what is termed "intelligence" and it has been used nefariously many times against people.

If you want people to learn and understand things, teach them without expecting any sort of pay back in return for the knowledge. Not expecting any payback is doing things out of the kindness of one's own heart. Doing "good" actions and expecting something in return is not doing things out of the kindness of your heart.

Even jobs and services could be done out of the kindness of one's heart, but people expect things in return for their work and time. Which is why people expect money they can spend on the various products to please ourselves. Will people do their services for food, shelter, clothes, and hospitality? Some will and some won't. If you care enough to perform "good intention" actions, should you not expect anything in return?

The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.

Do you need a study to notice this? I don't think you do. You can see it when interacting with people and how far people will go to avoid any discussion of pandemic related doings. People know that it can cause rifts and will just avoid talking about it and go about their day agreeing to disagree, while enjoying their time out of the house.

There was so much tension already boiling in the pot and this pandemic was like adding more water to the pot that's boiling over.

[XJDenton]

The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.

Touche.

But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.

Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.

I deleted the post because I realised I was just being tired and irritable. I've been working 14 hour days for 10 days straight. Sorry.

[ReaPsTA]

The breaking of people psychological and the financial ruin are already immediately obvious.

I've seen no double blind studies that demonstrate that.

Touche.

But when it comes to the effects of masks, other NPIs, and COVID shots, the positive effects of those policies require in depth studies in order to sort out the multiple confounding factors involved.

Whereas, you look at the social upheaval we've seen in the past couple years and the transfer of wealth to the rich, both are obviously linked to one thing. I suppose you could argue that a world economy and society with fewer underlying issues could have handled COVID better. But to argue that COVID wasn't necessarily the match that lit the tinder... I'd certainly love to read it.

I deleted the post because I realised I was just being tired and irritable. I've been working 14 hour days for 10 days straight. Sorry.

Appreciated but I mostly thought it was funny.

EDIT: And cut your hours back!

[XJDenton]

Maybe so, but its not conductive to good debate, and you deserve better than that.

The hours were exceptional: we were doing an experiment at facility we can only use 2 weeks per year, so it was pretty full on. I have a 4 day weekend coming up to compensate.

[ReaPsTA]

Maybe so, but its not conductive to good debate, and you deserve better than that.

Aw shucks

The hours were exceptional: we were doing an experiment at facility we can only use 2 weeks per year, so it was pretty full on. I have a 4 day weekend coming up to compensate.

At least it's for something productive and actually timely. Enjoy the coming long weekend.

[Stadler]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

Another (two) statements that bum me out.  I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show".   It's mostly respectful.  Honest question:  what's the desired outcome here?

Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.

Well, no boners here, I can tell you.  But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile.   I ask only for understanding.  And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given.  I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from.  Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from.  I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.

For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding.  There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.  Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?"  Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity.   I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.

The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are.   A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance.  Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be. 

[Skeever]

I became a first-time parent months after the initial lockdowns. And holy shit. In some ways, I feel like I lucked out (got to wfh, not much going on out in the world to miss out on, etc) while in other ways, the one-two punch of becoming a parent and COVID lockdowns basically ended my social life and spiraled me into some kind of Stanley Kubrik scenario where I felt totally trapped by domestic pressure and dead to the world. New parents probably struggle to hang on to themselves as it is, but in this case, the lockdowns leveled any part of my social identity not already completely pounded into the dirt by becoming a parent.

Luckily, 9 months in, I started getting mental help from a therapist. And many walls/monitors/guitars/etc in my home have their continued intactness to thank that for. Things have gotten a lot better, almost in direct relationship to me being able to say "enough is enough", take personal risks, trust my child to external care during the workday and some nights, etc... all stuff that would have normally gotten smoothened over much sooner, but thanks to COVID, took longer for us.

I've heard the same thing echoed from my therapist, and other parents. People have dealt with depression or dealt with kids who have become severely depressed (can't imagine being a high schooler virtually, I mean come on). I'm of the opinion that lockdowns and restrictions have done far more harm than good, and anyone who thinks I'm being dishonest on insincere about that opinion can go back to the early pages of this thread and read me taking the exact opposite stance in the early days.

That said, like others, still fully support masking (where it makes sense and isn't just a virtue signal) and vaccination (all adults should be doing it so we can stop this nonsense around subjecting it to the youngest of kids).

[lonestar]

Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.

I don't trust credible news sources though, they always go against my preconceived notions and force me to accept that I may be wrong.

lol

This thread has become a total shit show.

Yeah, I've given up on sensible discourse, it's like throwing wet shit into a running fan.

Another (two) statements that bum me out.  I see a number of people that don't agree, but I don't see "shit show".   It's mostly respectful.  Honest question:  what's the desired outcome here?

Not sure if a desired outcome is possible...we've been bashing our heads against the same fucking spot on the wall for over a hundred pages, without a single move in ideology from anyone's perspective. I recall a saying about doing the same thing over and over expecting different results... maybe you get a boner from the art of argument itself, you are a lawyer after all, I just get frustrated.

Well, no boners here, I can tell you.  But I long ago realized that AGREEMENT as a goal is futile.   I ask only for understanding.  And "understanding" is an easy standard because it's on me, and it's freely given.  I can't FORCE myself to agree with people whose life philosophies are not my own, but I CAN force myself to UNDERSTAND them, so when they disagree with my choice of laws, for example, I can see where they are coming from.  Dave and I are probably as polar opposites as two men can be on most of these things, but it's almost always civil, because I (like to think I) UNDERSTAND where he's coming from.  I'll vote against him every time, but I understand him.

For me, anyway, and I don't mean this personally but rather in my experience, it's harder to HATE when you have understanding.  There's a humanity that comes with that, a humanity that is sorely lacking in most of the political discourse in our country today.  Not a day goes by - literally - that I don't see a Tweet and I think "you kiss your mother with that mouth?"  Not swears, but just the vitriol, the hate, the animosity.   I can't imagine going through life with those negative feelings simply because our core gut instincts, or our processing of risk, or whatever it is that is at the core of our politics, are based on different premises.

The funny thing for me, is, not really ascribing to either party (and therefore not being welcome by either one) I see how similar they really are.   A lot of both sides is rooted in fear, in insecurity, and in a need for acceptance.  Once you get to that level, it ought to be easier than it seems to be.

You can't honestly tell me that you don't get at least a little bit of a chubby from a good argument..