Author Topic: Coronavirus Thread v.2  (Read 142553 times)

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3570 on: February 14, 2022, 11:51:18 AM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3571 on: February 14, 2022, 11:57:29 AM »
As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.

"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."

Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.

What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.

In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.

What exactly is your experience / credentials?  Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?
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Offline Grappler

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3572 on: February 14, 2022, 11:57:38 AM »
[Willpower for what? Staying up with the protocols?  I know having been in the office last week for a couple days, and watching how most do (or don't) stick with the plan, I can tell you that in the group environment, it's difficult to stay disciplined.   And a week before that, we were in a group meeting and the entire group - 8-ish people - agreed that we were distanced enough and all vaccinated, and so we didn't require each other to wear masks. Someone else came in about halfway through the day and after about 45 minutes made an issue of the lack of masks.  It's hard to know what IS right versus what just "seems" right.

This is completely true.  I took my daughter to a kid's birthday party on Saturday.  It was in a local community center room, and was a combined kids/family party.  There must have been at least 100 people in the room, with less than 5 keeping their masks on for the two hours that we were there.  Most did not wear masks, including me.  My daughter wore hers at first, but opted to take it off since she was running around. 

I generally kept to myself and didn't mingle, but I certainly would have felt weird wearing a mask for two hours when nobody else was.  I never felt at-risk, since I didn't have many people close to me at any given time, but after two years of hearing from experts and politicians that it's not advisable to put yourself into those situations, it does feel weird to attend a big party. 

I tend to go with the flow - if I'm in a store or public place where it is required (through February 28th here in Illinois), then I follow suit.  But in a smaller social setting or my office, I'll usually not wear one.  We really have to get used to not wearing masks all the time again - it's what I tell my wife when we talk about the school masking issue.  I'm not a fan of how this lawsuit in Illinois ripped the band aid off and is forcing a more immediate change instead of allowing the schools to make a gradual adjustment for the kids, but at the same time, I do see that it's not a practice that can be maintained indefinitely with no end. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3573 on: February 14, 2022, 11:58:32 AM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

Except.... COVID has consistently defied these easy extrapolations.   California, Florida.   

For example, those Denmark numbers make me skeptical, IF you follow the experts that say the incubation period is 2 to 14 days (google "COVID Incubation period" and you'll get more valid sources than you can shake a testing swab at).   That means that basically literally at day ONE of the relaxation, everyone not only stopped all protocols, but somehow operated instantaneously to propagate that virus MORE than when we didn't even know we HAD a virus.   

Offline cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3574 on: February 14, 2022, 12:03:54 PM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet.  I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking?  Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again.  Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated. 

Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3575 on: February 14, 2022, 12:05:02 PM »
As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.

"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."

Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.

What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.

Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?

Quote
In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.

What exactly is your experience / credentials?  Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.

I do data analysis for a living and did IT before that. Took university class in study design. Expert I am not but it's not like I open the papers and am like "lol fancy numbers."

Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.

There are other things I've done... I don't feel like power levelling myself too much, where the best knowledge is found in listening to tons of interviews with people who have done it before and picking out the random helpful tidbits here and there. Whereas a lot of the time the books give a good high level overview but are light on specifics.

And in terms of psychology, the weird freudian shit is basically mandatory reading, as long as you then compare it with the more up-to-date/scientific research.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3576 on: February 14, 2022, 12:07:40 PM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet.  I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking?  Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again.  Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.

So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?

That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3577 on: February 14, 2022, 12:11:31 PM »
As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.

"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."

Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.

What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.

In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.

What exactly is your experience / credentials?  Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?

When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.  If it were 60/40 or 50/50 then yeah, I'd read up more.  That's where Chad is going.  The majority say take the vaccine.  The outliers saying don't is minimal.

ReaP to answer your question.  Yes.  When it's so lopsided from experts on taking the vaccine, their opinion should be looked at as an outlier.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3578 on: February 14, 2022, 12:13:58 PM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet.  I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking?  Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again.  Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.

So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?

That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?

Not sure why you would be surprised about this.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3579 on: February 14, 2022, 12:23:34 PM »
When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3580 on: February 14, 2022, 12:23:56 PM »
Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

I mentioned the other week that I thought it was odd for Sweden to loosen restrictions when their spike wasn't even done yet.  I didn't look until now at Denmark's cases... wtf were they thinking?  Basically just got under the peak and now it's peaked again.  Why not wait until that actually goes down? Either way, I'd imagine it will still go down, just going to take a bit longer and maybe costs some more lives.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Most people don't become educated in sciences because they don't have the desire to study and work hard enough to become educated.

So people are too lazy to actually do the work involved in learning something new?

That's says more about human behaviors to me. That people do not have enough will power to actually put in the work involved in order to achieve. Why do people not have that drive and desire to work for stuff?

Not sure why you would be surprised about this.

I lived in a first year of science and engineering dorm in college freshman year.  Id say about 80% of the people got weeded out into easier majors. Humans generally are lazy, but also, some things just aren't meant for people.  Not everyone is good with math for example.

Denmark removed all restrictions 2 weeks ago and Sweden followed suit last week. Denmark is now at an all time high in cases and mortality. The absolute numbers in the latter case are reasonably small, but I hope that this does not come back to bite them in the arse.

This is what I'm fearful of.  Restrictions would be better eased one at a time to see / measure the impact.  Capacities ... then masks... then vaccine requirements ....  Doing them all at once leaves a strong possibility of another yo-yo effect of having to reintroduce restrictions.  It's happened every time a new wave comes along - last thing needed is to create a self-induced wave.

Except.... COVID has consistently defied these easy extrapolations.   California, Florida.   

For example, those Denmark numbers make me skeptical, IF you follow the experts that say the incubation period is 2 to 14 days (google "COVID Incubation period" and you'll get more valid sources than you can shake a testing swab at).   That means that basically literally at day ONE of the relaxation, everyone not only stopped all protocols, but somehow operated instantaneously to propagate that virus MORE than when we didn't even know we HAD a virus.   

I took a look at Denmark's numbers.  The two peaks are about 2 weeks apart.  Seems plausible to me that easing restrictions may have lead to the second spike.  Obviously, that's hard to say as a fact, but it looks very possible.  My statement earlier makes me really wonder why they eased when the spike didn't even come down, it was just starting to come down.  I still think NJ got it right, waited until the peak was completely over to announce lifting restrictions, but the loosing still doesn't happen for a month.  NJ also never re-imposed a statewide mask mandate.  I think the state actually handled covid well since the vaccines made their way to the masses.  Doesn't mean covid didn't do its damage, but there's only so much that mandating can do in the end.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3581 on: February 14, 2022, 12:28:28 PM »
When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.

God dammit Joe!

I was on a roll dammit! :lol  Vaccine!
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Offline DTFan0789

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3582 on: February 14, 2022, 12:36:35 PM »
- The shots are not complication free

No, but strictly speaking, nothing is.  Condoms are not "complication free." And using one, even using one correctly, is not a guarantee that one will remain pregnancy free or STD free.  However, the odds of complications of any sort are staggeringly low, and the fact that "complications" can and do happen in extremely rare situation does not mean that they aren't effective or that the effectiveness doesn't somehow staggeringly, overwhelmingly outweigh the potential complications.

- A big part of the vaccine push was that you should take it even if you already had COVID, which given the research that's come out later is highly questionable. It also matters as pertains to mandates that don't take into account whether or not you already had the virus

I'm not speaking to the mandates, because I think I've already made my position on mandates clear.  But as far as a recommendation--whether someone should get vaccinated under those circumstances--I personally still it is a perfectly reasonable recommendation, given the data.  We know that people who have had covid have gotten it again, sometimes several times.  We also know of cases of the unvaccinated where early infections  were mild and subsequent infections were more severe.  And we also know of cases where early infections of the unvaccinated were mild, and person subsequently vaccinated, and subsequent infections were also mild.  In those cases, it is a lot harder to make grand proclamations about causation vs. merely correlation.  But correlation seems reasonable.  Not to mention the separate issue of the vaccines also reducing transmission somewhat.  Those benefits, to me, seem to clearly make subsequent vaccination a really good idea.

Are you seriously comparing wearing a condom and having it fail in preventing pregnancy/STDs to the life altering adverse reactions that thousands around the globe are experiencing when getting injected with these shots?
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3583 on: February 14, 2022, 12:56:33 PM »
When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.

God dammit Joe!

I was on a roll dammit! :lol  Vaccine!

That might be your best typo ever

Offline DTFan0789

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3584 on: February 14, 2022, 12:59:07 PM »
As for that site Reapsta linked ... in their own "About" section, this is in bold letters.

"Preprints are preliminary reports of work that have not been certified by peer review. They should not be relied on to guide clinical practice or health-related behavior and should not be reported in news media as established information."

Okay so then read the study yourself. I think the methodology seems sound. Take a point in time where people are or are not vaccinated. See what outcomes happen over the next few months. They have a large sample size. The one thing you could pick apart is that they do controls for age and other health factors. I think this is wise, but you could argue they did it wrong, or weren't transparent enough in their methods, for whatever reason.

What if you read it yourself? What's your opinion?
I'm grossly hesitant on the response of 'do your own research'.... I don't have to do my own research - I'm not arrogant enough to think that I'm more of an expert than an entire global community with decades of experience, education, and expertise.

In my experience, obscure places are the only place to find real information about anything. Even when operating under the best of intentions, there are uncomfortable/nuanced aspects of any field that don't translate well into broadly popular mainstream publications.

What exactly is your experience / credentials?  Serious question, I'm not baiting, I'm genuinely curious.

If education wasn't so damn expensive, I am sure a lot of people will gladly become educated about the same topics the experts learned at their institutions.

Being a scholar and someone who likes to learn means always striving to educate one self. If you know and understand where and what those institutions are teaching and how, you can do the same yourself. Even at that those experts do not agree with each other and will agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
I think a great question to ask people is...What if all you knew and understood turned out to be completely wrong?

When an extremely high amount of experts say to get the virus, I'm going to lean to them.  If it were 60/40 or 50/50 then yeah, I'd read up more. That's where Chad is going.  The majority say take the vaccine.  The outliers saying don't is minimal.

ReaP to answer your question.  Yes.  When it's so lopsided from experts on taking the vaccine, their opinion should be looked at as an outlier.

Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

I'm sure you wouldn't mind a live, unfiltered, televised debate between the "experts" and the so-called "outliers", correct? I know the "experts" sure would, which is why they have been doing everything in their power to censor, de-platform, and de-legitimize all dissenting views that don't align in lockstep with the official narrative.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 01:05:48 PM by DTFan0789 »
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Offline MoraWintersoul

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3585 on: February 14, 2022, 01:02:55 PM »
Are you seriously comparing wearing a condom and having it fail in preventing pregnancy/STDs to the life altering adverse reactions that thousands around the globe are experiencing when getting injected with these shots?
No, he's probably saying that the absolute success rate is about the same and the general safety is about the same, though I think that's probably underselling the vaccine. But even in your original example, yeah, getting pregnant or getting an STD is about as life altering as a bad vaccine reaction. How many people got a serious adverse reaction compared to how many people got seriously sick from COVID, a wave of which could only be stopped by vaccines, is a very very very small number compared to a mountain of cases.

For sure, there is some alternate source that "questions the official narrative" that I am undoubtedly going to be referred back to. Nevermind that "the official narrative" is a stream of mutually verifiable news/facts/data/COVID history compiled by tens upon tens of thousands of medical workers all around the globe even first hand over social media, and journalists/communication experts who pass that on through news sources and official organizations.

This isn't about whether CNN thinks your ingroup is right politically or whether it's wrong. It's not opinion journalism, but on vaccines this time as a singular issue instead of this or that politician. The "official narrative" isn't preselected or vetted or subjected to bias of a minority of journalists, it is formed in real time, almost minute-by-minute at first as everyone reported on every little thing happening with COVID.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 01:13:19 PM by MoraWintersoul »

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3586 on: February 14, 2022, 01:03:18 PM »
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?

This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid.  Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong.  You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here?  I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things.  Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way. 

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3587 on: February 14, 2022, 01:11:32 PM »
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?
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Offline DTFan0789

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3588 on: February 14, 2022, 01:16:31 PM »
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?

Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3589 on: February 14, 2022, 01:17:52 PM »
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?

This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid.  Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong.  You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here?  I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things.  Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way.

I am absolutely biased. But I've changed my mind on COVID before and, I assume, could change it again.

But you're getting into the verified/unverified sources thing again. I know a bunch of people are talking about expert consensus, and in some cases it's a valid way to look at things, but COVID has become too political. Too much clout and money is involved in who makes what decisions and has what opinions about COVID. I would generally trust the expert consensus in something like, say, astronomy. If you go out and say you think Dark Energy is a clumsy explanation for holes in existing scientific theories, you aren't going to be called a merchant of death on Twitter, be banned from Youtube, and lose your ability to get grant funding (at least I hope this is the case).

But inasmuch as expert consensus is useful (and I don't think it's that useful to begin with, lack of competition pressure to test ideas), it's not useful here because of the politics involved.

I don't know your doctor or their specific arguments. Maybe their information does suck. But verified/unverified is not the determinate factor here.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3590 on: February 14, 2022, 01:20:14 PM »
I'll agree with you that covid has become too political. 

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3591 on: February 14, 2022, 01:21:31 PM »
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?

Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3592 on: February 14, 2022, 01:23:15 PM »
 :corn

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3593 on: February 14, 2022, 01:25:01 PM »
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
In the face of conflicting information amongst experts, I'll tend to lean towards siding with the masses.  Let me ask you this, you get 9 doctors that diagnose you with prostate cancer, and one who operates in an obscure, hard to find location who says you're healthy as a horse.  Who are you going to tend to believe believe?

Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.
  EXACTLY .... "what you're looking for".  Thanks for proving that point.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3594 on: February 14, 2022, 01:34:30 PM »
Quote
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?
In the face of conflicting information amongst experts, I'll tend to lean towards siding with the masses.  Let me ask you this, you get 9 doctors that diagnose you with prostate cancer, and one who operates in an obscure, hard to find location who says you're healthy as a horse.  Who are you going to tend to believe believe?

Always gotta look for that one stack overflow question or that one Youtube video with under 2,000 views that actually explains what you're looking for.
  EXACTLY .... "what you're looking for".  Thanks for proving that point.

In this example, is the one doctor the only one who is able to actually run a lab test to confirm?

This feeds into the second point you're making. The data supporting the various COVID mitigation methods that I have seen is, by and large, deeply flawed. As is a lot of the data saying "lol the vaccines are actually a conspiracy to sterilize the population." I have no interest in engaging with junk science just because it supports conclusions I agree with. I hope that's not what you're suggesting.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3595 on: February 14, 2022, 01:40:28 PM »
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?

Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.

Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...
"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." - George Orwell, 1984

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3596 on: February 14, 2022, 01:48:05 PM »
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.

Very fair point. I've heard random stories from other countries. Some German internal government report talking about how they needed their government messaging to more actively spread fear about COVID. A hot mic conversation among Israeli government officials talking about how they were pushing Pfizer shots because of the big contract they signed with that company.

One thing I would say is, a lot of the better COVID research seems to come from countries not America because they don't seem dedicated to promoting narratives the way we are (admitted defect in American culture). I also think, in general, looking at how corrupt America's institutions are, I have a hard time believing none of the rest of the world is the same way at all. Doesn't seem realistic.

But you're right that in the end I don't follow political dynamics in the rest of the world closely enough to speak on them, or their credibility, with any specificity.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3597 on: February 14, 2022, 01:49:42 PM »
Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...

As someone who does not have time to read a 110 page document, who exactly does Mr Schwab think it orchestrating such a plan?
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3598 on: February 14, 2022, 01:55:09 PM »
Are you familiar with Klaus Schwab, executive chairman of the World Economic Forum and author of "COVID-19: The Great Reset"? His teachings may interest you...

As someone who does not have time to read a 110 page document, who exactly does Mr Schwab think it orchestrating such a plan?

I would also be interested in this response.

Every piece of rhetoric I see come out of the WEF is disturbing, but I think it's more an expression of what a certain class of people already think rather than any sort of driver of policy.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3599 on: February 14, 2022, 02:07:45 PM »
Even if you don't want to read the papers yourself there are actual medical doctors/researches who disagree with the consensus around COVID. Are their opinions invalid because they're in the minority?

This is anecdotal, but one of my medical doctor friends (pediatrist, so not really a virologist, but smart educated person) was/is very against the mainstream around covid.  Every time I try to get him to show me data to support what he was saying, it was some oddball resource that was unverified and I could find a verified source that showed he was wrong.  You mention that peer reviewing can show bias, but do you think you also have a bias that's skewing your vision here?  I know for a fact the person I'm talking about is easily skewed by hard right politics because he regularly shares bogus alex jones related stuff as his proof of things.  Once again, smart and educated medical doctor but quite clearly letting his bias get into the way.

I am absolutely biased. But I've changed my mind on COVID before and, I assume, could change it again.

But you're getting into the verified/unverified sources thing again. I know a bunch of people are talking about expert consensus, and in some cases it's a valid way to look at things, but COVID has become too political. Too much clout and money is involved in who makes what decisions and has what opinions about COVID. I would generally trust the expert consensus in something like, say, astronomy. If you go out and say you think Dark Energy is a clumsy explanation for holes in existing scientific theories, you aren't going to be called a merchant of death on Twitter, be banned from Youtube, and lose your ability to get grant funding (at least I hope this is the case).

But inasmuch as expert consensus is useful (and I don't think it's that useful to begin with, lack of competition pressure to test ideas), it's not useful here because of the politics involved.

I don't know your doctor or their specific arguments. Maybe their information does suck. But verified/unverified is not the determinate factor here.

And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.

Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.

It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3600 on: February 14, 2022, 02:17:26 PM »
And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.

Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.

It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.

I agree in a broad sense, but then what. The world is running off a cliff. Either it needs to be stopped or there need to be parachutes available for the people who want them.

While I've mostly been coming at this from... a certain view point, this is a both sides problem. Why any older/at risk person didn't get a COVID shot is a question well worth asking. I've seen a lot of posts here talking about their "political biases" but that's more a way to put opinions they disagree with in a box that can be disregarded. Everyone's opinions are sincere from their own point of view.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3601 on: February 14, 2022, 02:18:31 PM »
Oh dear lord.  The Great Reset (with the implication DTFan is making) only takes about 3 seconds to debunk.  For starters, type "great reset" into a browser, and tell me what get's auto-filled.  *awaits to be told Google is part of it*

Second, the very first hit from a credible news source:

https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57532368
"A vague set of proposals from an influential organisation has been transformed by online conspiracy theorists into a powerful viral rallying cry."

The original pitch of by the WEF is not without criticism, but it's been conflated by conspiracy theorists into something it isn't.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3602 on: February 14, 2022, 02:18:55 PM »
Something you may want to consider reading up on a bit more is a concept called regulatory capture, which is about as much of a conspiracy theory as tax fraud. This will explain why such a high amount of "experts" have been pushing the vaccine.

Not just regulatory capture, but what Pharmaceutical companies they own stock in or who writes their grant checks. If you need the national institute of health to fund your research, then are you going to publicly speak out against it?

Exactly. "Oh, you're thinking about speaking out against what you see is clearly morally, ethically, and scientifically wrong? I guess you don't want that grant money then..."
This is a very frequent obstacle in these discussions and it needs to be addressed as head-on as I possibly can: are you guys aware that you live in a world whose borders spread far beyond North America, that the CDC isn't the supreme overlord of the planet's entire health industry, and a variety of vaccines is currently being used (and a further variety is being developed), only one or two of which received *some* funding from your national institutions? Capture of which regulatory bodies, the entire world's? Be precise - how are citizens in China, Brazil, France, Norway, Serbia, Australia, Monaco and Nigeria concretely being harmed by "the narrative" on vaccines, which is morally, ethically and scientifically wrong? Which politicians are pulling the strings here? Who decided this would happen? Whose money? Again, feel free to be as precise as possible, if this is so transparently wrong and a non-expert can take it apart so easily and casually.

Well, Brazil and most South American countries, are having a hard enough time keeping people from migrating into the United States as it is. So they have worse things to worry about. They are fighting with the indigenous people for their usage of their land. That's way worse than a disease making you sick. You're being forced off your land in order for the country and others not in your own land to benefit off it's exploitation. The land you utilized for centuries that included healthy habits that did benefit the people. Now all that is gone and you're health suffers because of that. Which is worse, a disease with possiblity of death based on the condition of your health, or the depletion of the land that provides beneficial healthy sustainability taken from you as you're forced to relocate and adapt somewhere unknown?

That's what a lot of those people there have to worry about among this virus, so they're weighing of situations is going to be different than people here in America and elsewhere in the world.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3603 on: February 14, 2022, 02:26:23 PM »
And you know why I think it has become too political. Because the entire political system is corrupted. And it's been corrupted long before America's inception. Every civilization has some form of corruption within it's societal social structures for the people to abide by.

Knowing how humans behave and respond should tell you what to expect in these sorts of scenarios. And how people will utilize these moments for their own purposes whether beneficial or detrimental to humans, and even the entire ecosystem of the world.

It's why I said good luck with getting the entire world to take this vaccine. And peoples reasons for why they won't vary based on various determinations.

I agree in a broad sense, but then what. The world is running off a cliff. Either it needs to be stopped or there need to be parachutes available for the people who want them.

While I've mostly been coming at this from... a certain view point, this is a both sides problem. Why any older/at risk person didn't get a COVID shot is a question well worth asking. I've seen a lot of posts here talking about their "political biases" but that's more a way to put opinions they disagree with in a box that can be disregarded. Everyone's opinions are sincere from their own point of view.

Then people should learn to do things for themselves like planting and gathering foods, how to build a shelter/home, how to defend themselves from harm, and many other things that people rely on others to do for them.

I said, what if an older person says, "If this is the way I go out then this is how I go." It's as if their mindset is that they themselves feel accepting of dying and are welcoming of it.

It's why I am fascinated with human behaviors and mindsets because every human on this Earth is not the same and will never be. And based on upbringings as a child is how your mindset and behaviors are determined, and the many environmental surroundings that can influence these behaviors and mindsets.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3604 on: February 14, 2022, 02:32:38 PM »
Then people should learn to do things for themselves like planting and gathering foods, how to build a shelter/home, how to defend themselves from harm, and many other things that people rely on others to do for them.

This is what I'm afraid of. If you have the money to buy a generator/solar panels/fuel/food reserves prepping is a viable lifestyle. For most people, if the electricity can't be delivered because the government is that incompetent, good luck.

Quote
I said, what if an older person says, "If this is the way I go out then this is how I go." It's as if their mindset is that they themselves feel accepting of dying and are welcoming of it.

Agreed in the sense of, they have a right to their perspective and maybe I'm wrong. I know before the shots there were older people who said, "Look, if I get COVID I might die. Or if I stay inside I might die of old age or some sickness anyway. If I'm at risk of death, might as well spend it actually being alive." I can even see why older people didn't want to get the shots immediately. New thing. But even the murmurs of side-effects almost exclusively seemed to affect the young. What's the value in wanting to die? Even if you think life sucks, it can always turn around.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2022, 02:38:01 PM by ReaPsTA »
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