Author Topic: Coronavirus Thread v.2  (Read 141228 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3115 on: January 11, 2022, 11:43:49 AM »
Good to hear Stads, and as someone who hasn't lost their memory, the whole quarantine thing is kind of rough on it's own so I can see how that's very difficult for your parents. 

Turns out one of my anti-vax friends got covid a couple weeks ago but kind of dissapeared last week.  I had assumed he went on the vacation he was supposed to go on before he got covid and had to cancel.  Nope, turns out this 33 year old unvaxxed guy was in the hospital from his covid.  He seems to not want to talk about it, not surprising given how vocally anti-vax he was. 

The NYTimes this morning did another fantastic piece about how this is still an issue of the unvaccinated mostly.  Vaccinated people just aren't dying excessively or clogging up the hospitals from their data, it's still very dominantly unvaccinated people who are at risk of severe illness and death. 

and I return to my normal life of work and hanging with the gf tomorrow although a slight cough still lingers  :yarr

Offline Melphina

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3116 on: January 11, 2022, 12:09:05 PM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3117 on: January 11, 2022, 12:33:51 PM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

It can be both.   We're at a point now, though, where the details are important, and our media does us a disservice when it comes to that.   Roughly 85% of Americans have at least one shot at this point.   I don't want to baffle you with numbers, but if you have a population of, say, 100,000, that means 85,000 are vaccinated, and 15,000 are not.  If half of all unvaccinated get the COVIDs, that's 7500 people.  If even 10% of the vaccinated get sick, that's 8500, MORE than the number of vaccinated.  So this is a problem of the unvaccinated, in that their odds are bad to get it, and it's an outsome where the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated. 

So this is, perhaps, less a matter of how effective the vaccine is, or anything else medical, and almost a pure problem of probabilities.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3118 on: January 11, 2022, 12:36:08 PM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

Could be true for certain localities.  And for certain parts of the world of high vaccination rates, it's going to be the case.  Here's the link for what I was talking about, it only looked at New York City and Seattle for example so I'm not sure how other areas would follow up.  But those graphs show a pretty clear difference.

https://messaging-custom-newsletters.nytimes.com/template/oakv2?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220111&instance_id=49977&nl=the-morning&productCode=NN&regi_id=163128761&segment_id=79338&te=1&uri=nyt%3A%2F%2Fnewsletter%2F2d576889-cf8f-5fe4-8389-73e50d2a0819&user_id=5bb2286c63e7587df5a90d80379e00c1

Online Skeever

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3119 on: January 11, 2022, 12:36:53 PM »
Great news Stadler!

My son's isolation ends tomorrow, but they just called to let them know that his classroom is shut down. Until next week. We're holding up pretty well... I think. I mean, my mouse went launching through my computer monitor at some point Monday due to the pressure of 3 jobs (in addition to job 1 and parenting, covering for a coworker who is on family leave ironically)... but, that aside, I'm fine? I guess? Neither the mouse nor the computer monitor survived the event, BTW...

The saga continues...

Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3120 on: January 11, 2022, 01:16:00 PM »
In my county, the unvaccinated cases far outpace the vaccinated break through cases. I live in a small town and we were down to 20 something cases in mid-January. We are now up to 122 and have trended upwards the last 3 weeks.

Offline vtgrad

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3121 on: January 11, 2022, 02:54:19 PM »
Same. We were supposed to return on the 18th. No new date on the horizon. Looks like we might actually hit the two year mark. That's so freaking wild.

Same here... and it's a permanent thing for us most likely.  We sold one of our offices (my office) and we're not renewing the lease on the other satellite office.  We're down to just the main office (owned by the business) and that one's empty.  We're all working remotely and plan to stay that way.  Commercial Real Estate may not be what it once was for businesses... we saw that coming and made an early move.  I feel like it was the right move.

Never thought I'd work from home... March 17th will mark two years.  Glad we are agile enough to make the change.. being that we're completely paperless and our client systems are as well.

@ Bill... that's very good new!  Glad to hear it.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3122 on: January 11, 2022, 03:07:06 PM »
@Stadler glad your parents are okay
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3123 on: January 11, 2022, 03:07:49 PM »
Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick  :omg:

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3124 on: January 11, 2022, 03:11:00 PM »
Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick  :omg:

United also just announced none of their employees have died of covid recently and have touted that as a success for forcing vaccinations a couple months ago.  As to Newark, it's safe to say covid is everywhere in NJ.

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3125 on: January 11, 2022, 03:13:06 PM »
After finally securing my CIO's stamp of approval for 100% work from home, the company pivoted with the newest surge. They crunched the numbers and IT was actually more productive than ever while working from home. Now they are offering anyone that wants it the opportunity. They are already looking to dump some of our downtown space to turn it over to income space.

Either way, I don't ever want to go in again. This is perfect.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3126 on: January 11, 2022, 03:26:11 PM »
Just heard at Newark Airport, 1/3 of united employees called out sick  :omg:

United also just announced none of their employees have died of covid recently and have touted that as a success for forcing vaccinations a couple months ago.  As to Newark, it's safe to say covid is everywhere in NJ.

It's just everywhere. Pretty much every company that services the building I'm at has at least half the staff out, and many companies are talking of going dark again, at least during omicron.

Offline ErHaO

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3127 on: January 12, 2022, 04:02:26 AM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

Vaccines work.

But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:

-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).

« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 04:14:29 AM by ErHaO »

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3128 on: January 12, 2022, 05:36:20 AM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

It can be both.   We're at a point now, though, where the details are important, and our media does us a disservice when it comes to that.   Roughly 85% of Americans have at least one shot at this point.   I don't want to baffle you with numbers, but if you have a population of, say, 100,000, that means 85,000 are vaccinated, and 15,000 are not.  If half of all unvaccinated get the COVIDs, that's 7500 people.  If even 10% of the vaccinated get sick, that's 8500, MORE than the number of vaccinated.  So this is a problem of the unvaccinated, in that their odds are bad to get it, and it's an outsome where the majority of people in hospital are vaccinated. 

So this is, perhaps, less a matter of how effective the vaccine is, or anything else medical, and almost a pure problem of probabilities.

Bill, that's a great explanation of the numbers. Thank you. That makes a lot of sense.



-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).

You make a lot of sense here ErHaO.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 05:56:16 AM by TAC »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3129 on: January 12, 2022, 05:46:19 AM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

Vaccines work.

But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:

-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).

Brilliantly put.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3130 on: January 12, 2022, 06:06:32 AM »
But I saw on the news this morning that vaccinated people are making up the majority of hospitalizations. I really don't know what to believe anymore so I frankly am not caring about any of it. It gives me a headache to think about and that's a shame. I genuinely have no idea what the truth is. Other than treating it like the flu and hoping you don't get it and practicing traditional hygiene I'm not sure what else there is to do :(

Vaccines work.

But there is a variety of reason why this can the case (and will be, if enough people are vaccinated), some of which are:

-When the majority of the people is vaccinated that group has a larger representation. Not real number but as an example: 1% of 800 (8) vaccinated people is more than 3% of 200 (6) non-vaccinated people, with a three fold difference in chance of hospitalization (which is big).
-On many locations the percentage of elderly people vaccinated is much higher than people at other ages. But that group, because they are elderly, still have a significantly higher chance of ending up in a hospital when compared to a healthy young person that did not get a vaccine.
-Not at all vaccines are created equally. Being vaccinated with two or three doses of moderna/pfizer is a whole different story than a single shot of astrazenica, for example. That in itself does not lead to vaccinated people overtaking non-vaccinated people in the hospitals, but keep in mind the status "vaccinated" is a big variable in itself.
-Unfortunately some of the vaccines offer little protection against omicron. That does not mean vaccines don't work in general, but they are unfortunately not universal and don't guarantee protection for everything that follows. I am confident in saying that without vaccines the numbers now would be significantly worse. In our case it really helped milden the blow of Delta, as our data shows us (The Netherlands).

Another thing I thought about is, how many unvaccinated are voluntarily testing?
That big push of people testing prior to their holiday get-togethers, people saying "better safe than sorry" to the pediatrician when they ask if they want their child tested, people who have a trip coming up and test beforehand to be sure... yeah, I doubt people who've declined the vaccine are doing that. Maybe a few, sure. And mandatory testing probably makes up most of the numbers we see. But when it comes to voluntary testing, the people doing it would slant heavily towards the people who were isolating, masking, vaccinating, and so on... The people who have been doing none of that aren't going to be showing up as positives unless they are sick, hospitalized, or forced to take a test. It's a matter of the group who are listening to the CDC (for whatever that's worth) in all the other ways thus far being better at reporting than the group who've merely put up with the bare minimum requirements and would never do anything in excess of those if they didn't absolutely have to.

Offline Grappler

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3131 on: January 12, 2022, 07:12:09 AM »
Here's a great example of vaccination in my family and how it's affecting our exposure to covid.

Brother and sister in law are unvaccinated (Brother in law had one J&J shot, was due to get his second this week).  Sister in law refused to get vaccinated.
- Brother in law had symptoms just like the flu - positive for covid, fever, body aches, chills, nasal congestion.
- Sister in law has monster headaches and nausea so far.  Haven't heard from them this morning to see if she's doing any better or worse.  She tested positive yesterday, but was negative on a home test on Monday.
- Their 14 year old son is asypmtomaic so far.

My family
- Daughter had two child doses of Pfizer vaccine.  She had a fever that got as high as 100.4, maybe 100.9 before bedtime.  It went away within 24 hours.  She basically has a cold right now - sneezing, sniffling.  Barely coughing.
- Wife and I have 3 doses of Pfizer (two originals, plus a booster).  Each of us has just felt slightly woozy and "off."  I have minor sniffles, but not enough to even say I have a cold.  We each have some headaches and tiredness, but it's not keeping us from doing our jobs, housework, and taking care of the kids.  It feels like when we got our boosters, where we were just tired and woozy as side effects.  To get the same reaction from actual exposure to the virus means that the vaccine is doing exactly what it should be doing. 


My brother and sister in law are getting hit harder by covid than my wife and I.  It's barely affecting us at all, and each of them is feeling pretty sick.  Survivable, yes.  But they are sick enough to miss work, sick enough to be stuck in bed, and out of commission.  Yesterday, my wife and I tested negative, even though we were starting to feel symptoms.  We'll probably take another home test tomorrow.  if it's still negative, than the vaccine is keeping our viral presence so low that it doesn't register on a test and we're likely not very contagious. 

This is on par with what medical experts are saying - two doses of an mRNA vaccine and you'll feel sick, but won't end up in bed for days or in the hospital (like my daughter).  Three doses of an mRNA vaccine and this strain of the virus barely even fazes you.  See below and quote.

https://wgntv.com/news/coronavirus/how-long-after-contracting-covid-19-can-i-get-it-again-and-other-reinfection-questions-answered/?fbclid=IwAR1rBLiBN1kDb2KoXWCHq9oE6Jebv0sSMeZhSkmYvpqm7o7UltkO-20EWZA

Quote
My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing thats always extremely important people sometimes go, Well if Im going to get reinfected, if Im going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated? The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, its likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.

Offline ProfessorPeart

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3132 on: January 12, 2022, 07:41:28 AM »


This is on par with what medical experts are saying - two doses of an mRNA vaccine and you'll feel sick, but won't end up in bed for days or in the hospital (like my daughter).  Three doses of an mRNA vaccine and this strain of the virus barely even fazes you.  See below and quote.


I can back that up. My daughter had 2 Moderna doses and tested positive on New Years Day. She felt sick for several days, but spent most of it in bed sleeping. She lost her taste and smell and still does not have them back, otherwise, she feels fine now.

Me, my wife and my son are all boostered (wife and I all Moderna, son all Pfizer) and none of us got sick. Well, that we know of.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3133 on: January 12, 2022, 08:02:49 AM »
Quote
My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing thats always extremely important people sometimes go, Well if Im going to get reinfected, if Im going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated? The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, its likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.

Not sure why some people don't seem to get this.  It isn't complicated at all.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3134 on: January 12, 2022, 08:05:28 AM »
Quote
My impression is that we have more breakthrough infections in people who have their first two shots but not the booster. The one thing thats always extremely important people sometimes go, Well if Im going to get reinfected, if Im going to have a breakthrough infection, why should I get vaccinated? The real issue is, if you have a breakthrough infection, its likely to be very mild. We have seen breakthrough infections, but they tend to be something that resembles a minor cold, a slight increase in allergies. We have people who get sicker, but they rarely end up in the hospital.

Not sure why some people don't seem to get this.  It isn't complicated at all.

Because people are easily influenced by social media

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3135 on: January 12, 2022, 08:12:37 AM »
Because people are easily influenced by social media

And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine.  People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital.  I don't get that kind of thinking at all.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3136 on: January 12, 2022, 09:07:13 AM »
Because people are easily influenced by social media

And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine.  People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital.  I don't get that kind of thinking at all.

It was happening with or without the former President.  As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk.  I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).

We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us.   Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.   Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one. 

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3137 on: January 12, 2022, 09:40:09 AM »
Because people are easily influenced by social media

And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine.  People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital.  I don't get that kind of thinking at all.

It was happening with or without the former President.  As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk.  I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).

We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us.   Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.   Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right.  I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best.  After all, HE got vaccinated.
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Offline Grappler

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3138 on: January 12, 2022, 09:52:17 AM »
Because people are easily influenced by social media

And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine.  People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital.  I don't get that kind of thinking at all.

It was happening with or without the former President.  As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk.  I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).

We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us.   Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.   Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right.  I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best.  After all, HE got vaccinated.

I agree with all of this, but I do hold him accountable for messaging on vaccines - he waited until he was out of office to promote them.  When he contracted covid, we got evasive answers from the doctors (understandable, for national security reasons, but also laughable, knowing his position on covid) and a photo op of him visibly huffing and puffing on the White House steps.  He was vaccinated in secret, off-camera, and never made public statements about the benefit of the vaccine to his health, or to the public, at the time.

From my own personal experience, my county is very red.  His supporters around me, including my own family members, lauded Operation Warp Speed and rushing vaccine production through in 2020.  But once he was out of office and the vaccines were available under a new administration, the same people started distrusting and criticizing the vaccines for being produced too quickly and being ineffective. 

It all ties together - the messaging about covid, the messaging about vaccines.  It was fumbled from the start and some individuals' fears of the vaccines may have been reduced, had he been honest about them.  I think the projection of machismo, the idea that a vaccine isn't needed and our immune systems can handle covid, all came from that single, former President and his victory photo op after getting out of Walter Reed. 

When the Rock comes out and says that covid kicked his own healthy, physically fit ass, yet a 75 year old, generally unhealthy President says otherwise....the messaging is severely wrong.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3139 on: January 12, 2022, 10:28:21 AM »
Because people are easily influenced by social media

And a former President that felt it was more important to show that he kicked the viruses' ass without a vaccine, rather than promote receiving a vaccine.  People really seem to think it's a badge of honor to have survived covid, despite spending weeks in the hospital.  I don't get that kind of thinking at all.

It was happening with or without the former President.  As is their right, some people just aren't willing to take that risk.  I have someone in my family that is as far from a Trump supporter as you can get, but is petrified of the vaccine and only got it for one very specific reason (and her daughter still hasn't and has no plans to).

We live in a victim society; it's not what we do, it's what's done to us.   Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country can do for you.   Putting the needle in your arm is AFFIRMATIVE ACTION, whereas waiting for COVID is a passive one.
You're right.  I hold him accountable (or at least co-accountable) for a lot, but I think his effect on the anti-COVID-vaxxers is minimal at best.  After all, HE got vaccinated.

I wholly disagree.  I think Trump COULD have had a positive impact towards the hesitant..  Before COVID, anti-vaxx'rs were largely left wing'rs subscribing to the notion that vaccines cause autism.  Suddenly under a global pandemic, anti-vax became a privacy/choice issue.

Now that I type that, I sincerely wonder how much of the Left became pro-vaccine simply because Trump was a detractor.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3140 on: January 12, 2022, 10:44:49 AM »
Trump planted a seed of doubt for those wavering about getting a vaccine when available.  That doubt lead to those to read the fox hole known as the Internet.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3141 on: January 12, 2022, 11:30:48 AM »
Respect, because we're all entitled to our observations, and all are equally valid (or invalid, as the case may be), but I think some of you are severely - and selectively - overplaying the messaging aspect of this.  As if ONLY the Trump supporters are anti-vax, and as if they are sitting in front of a screen salivating and staring off into space waiting for the next platform from their supreme leader.  Again, I know three people who are essentially anti-vax, and only one nominally supports Trump, and he's FAR from the minions storming the Capital.

This probably belongs in P/R, but the other aspect is, the selectivity. This is PRECISELY, at least in part, what Jake Angeli is talking about in that Qanon interview.  He talks at length about the continual bombardment from the media, including managing the buzzwords used (anyone remember any of my writing about the consistent use/abuse of the word "terrified" when talking about Trump or his policies during his term?) and it's effect on those of both sides of the aisle.   Now, I can see being selective when the circumstances are different - i.e. one man, and a scorned man at that, versus the perpetual and constant 24/7 barrage from the entire Fourth Estate (with a few exceptions) - but I guess I don't follow how THIS message is attributable to one man, but ALL the other dangerous messages coming from other public figures/politicians/candidates/media in the public eye are somehow benign and harmless.

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3142 on: January 12, 2022, 11:31:58 AM »
Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.

People are not that dumb, and are not stupid. People have their own minds and are capable of thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions. People were reading about conspiracies way before Trump felt like running, people theorized about conspiracies way before America became a Nation.

You could blame others for being an influence. But as long as humans are capable of thinking for themselves and coming to their own conclusions of the outcomes, people will continue to decide for themselves. Regardless of what anyone else thinks and concludes.

This is a human trait that no other can control but the self.
One example of such behavior and mindset is getting someone to get help in treatment for alcoholism or other addiction, people can try and get them to go, and they will, but it's up to them to want to make that change for themselves. It's their own decision to make, to come to the conclusions of the outcomes and possibly make that change for themselves.

I know plenty of people who have passed away due to these addictions. I, as one man and as a friend, can only do so much.


If I were to place blame on something for people dying. I blame how our entire lifestyle and system of life we live is not as beneficial as it may seem. It's very detrimental and we are now only realizing or seeing these outcomes play out with how unhealthy we are physically and mentally. Before Covid, were we healthy? That's a big, No. Many of us have health complications that we need to take pills to ease the pain, or to ease the symptoms for. The hospitals were already struggling, especially with people not donating organs that people need. Now we have blood donation shortages, so the people that need the blood supply can't get it. We could force organ and blood donation for the health and betterment of society by having organs and blood available for those that need another heart or a blood transfusion due to a loss of blood. But we can't, due to peoples beliefs.

There's lots of things you can place blame for, but in the end, it's all up to the self, the person, to want to make that change and become healthier or continue to live the lifestyle that is causing more hardships on their overall health.

Will you place the blame on the other, or will you place blame on the self? Will you forgive yourself, and will you forgive the other?
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3143 on: January 12, 2022, 11:59:16 AM »
Respect, because we're all entitled to our observations, and all are equally valid (or invalid, as the case may be), but I think some of you are severely - and selectively - overplaying the messaging aspect of this.  As if ONLY the Trump supporters are anti-vax, and as if they are sitting in front of a screen salivating and staring off into space waiting for the next platform from their supreme leader.  Again, I know three people who are essentially anti-vax, and only one nominally supports Trump, and he's FAR from the minions storming the Capital.

This probably belongs in P/R, but the other aspect is, the selectivity. This is PRECISELY, at least in part, what Jake Angeli is talking about in that Qanon interview.  He talks at length about the continual bombardment from the media, including managing the buzzwords used (anyone remember any of my writing about the consistent use/abuse of the word "terrified" when talking about Trump or his policies during his term?) and it's effect on those of both sides of the aisle.   Now, I can see being selective when the circumstances are different - i.e. one man, and a scorned man at that, versus the perpetual and constant 24/7 barrage from the entire Fourth Estate (with a few exceptions) - but I guess I don't follow how THIS message is attributable to one man, but ALL the other dangerous messages coming from other public figures/politicians/candidates/media in the public eye are somehow benign and harmless.

All completely fair points - especially the bolded ones.  I didn't mean to imply it was JUST Trump that created the amount of anti-vax rhetoric and resistance, but I wasn't as prepared as Hef to say that he didn't play a meaningful role.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3144 on: January 12, 2022, 12:02:19 PM »
Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.

I think you're being nave here Ben.  There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3145 on: January 12, 2022, 12:24:58 PM »
Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.

I think you're being nave here Ben.  There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.

You got the exact point. Politics isn't the only thing at play into why people are choosing to be unvaccinated.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3146 on: January 12, 2022, 01:13:51 PM »
America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3147 on: January 12, 2022, 01:54:06 PM »
It's probably too early to feel positive about this, but the last few days in NJ cases seemed to have plateaued.  It's still a very high number, but if this trend continues, we may see a sharp decline if what some experts have predicted becomes true.  And it certainly feels like omicron just blew through most people in the state so it kind of feels legit too from personal experience.  We will see though. 

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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3148 on: January 12, 2022, 01:55:56 PM »
Trump only has influence over his own following. There are many people who are not for Trump or for Biden who are not vaccinated.

I think you're being nave here Ben.  There are a lot of people out there that don't follow politics and party lines who were unsure and can be swayed about the vaccine and the virus.

You got the exact point. Politics isn't the only thing at play into why people are choosing to be unvaccinated.

Sure, the uneducated.


America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.

Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies.  Thinking with one head but not the other.
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Re: Coronavirus Thread v.2
« Reply #3149 on: January 12, 2022, 02:00:17 PM »
America has a pretty sizable liberal demographic who are part of the anti-vax movement, coming from the "my body is a temple" point of view.

Yet they'll put a little blue pill with many side affects, in their bodies.  Thinking with one head but not the other.

Don't even ask them to give up their glass of chardonnay or IPA either.  They will go on and on about toxins and their gut microbiome and yet...  :facepalm:
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