Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Stadler]

How are they misleading and inflammatory?

They basically state that 1 kid in the middle school has tested positive and I faculty member in the high school has tested positive. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

The rest of it is a pretty standard form letter.."Safety of our students and faculty are most important......"blah blah blah


The really just seem to be a reporting mechanism.

Exactly how I see it. 

We get the same emails and my wife is like "oh boy, another positive case in school."  I remind her that if our daughter were a close contact, we'd have already been notified by contact tracing and there is nothing to worry about.  By the time the letter goes out, it's just a note to parents to fulfill some state/government/school board requirement.

They'd do the same if there was an outbreak of lice. "There's (insert number) of kids that have been found with lice." Then they'll institute daily lice checks. Which everyone in that school can get lice if interacting with the kids who do.

But, I also see how it can be considered misleading, in it's playing off the parents fears for the child's safety. It's causing parents to mislead in thinking the schools are where the children are getting Covid when it's showing not to be the case.

Does the email state, the home is where most issues are formed, even sickness. If your child is sick, keep him home.

Then also, how many of those children who tested positive had symptoms that were worrying. Or did the parents at the sign of the sniffles and runny nose take their kid to get tested? Most won't and feel it's a common cold and will just send their kid to "shake it off" which is what we do for the common cold, rather than take time off work to take their kid to the doctor to see exactly if it is Covid or the common cold, or something else entirely.

What is the better trade-off, taking off from work to stay home with your child, preventing you from earning a sustainable living? Or working to earn money so your child can have food to eat and toilet paper to wipe their ass?

Ben, to the bolded...the emails simply report. There are loinks to the CDC and stuff, but at no point is the school  making judgements on where it was caught.

Also, misleading? The schools are obligated to report cases. Fears the parents have is the parents's issue.


Here is an example of an email in our district last year..

Anytown Public Schools Notice of Positive COVID-19 Test

School Directly Affected: Middle/Senior High School

March 5, 2021

Dear Anytown Families,

I am writing to inform you that 1 student at the Middle/Senior High School tested positive for COVID-19. 

There are currently two students and two staff members who are actively positive within the district.  Since the start of school we have now had a total of 118 positive COVID-19 cases, 96 students and 22 staff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For complete information on all cases please click on the COVID-19 dashboard link https://www.Anytownrschools.org/page/coronavirus-information  which is in the “Coronovirus Information” tab on the top of each page on the website.   A reminder that the dashboard is updated not only when we get positive cases but also when students and/or staff are no longer active.  Therefore this document is continually updated and changing according to the timelines established for each individual.  We will do our best to update in a timely manner.    This dashboard will provide families with information about active COVID-19 cases (students and staff)  in the school district.  It will also provide information about the number of students and staff who are being actively quarantined due to being a close contact to a positive case in school.   Finally, the dashboard will include the total number of cases in the schools at the bottom of the dashboard.  There will also be a link to the Anytown Board of Health page Anytown Board of Health Coronavirus Information Website and the Massachusetts Department of Health page Commonwealth of Massachusetts COVID-19 Information Website

It is always our first priority and our responsibility to keep our students and staff safe and to inform our school community.  We created a plan to address this scenario during our reopening planning process.  Part of this plan included the process of informing families whose student(s) were at risk of exposure or in close contact, and to provide support to the affected family as they navigate through this stressful experience.  I want to assure you that our Administrative team along with our Lead Nurse continue to meet to discuss each positive case.  We also are working closely with the Anytown Board of Health.

Our students and staff have been closely adhering to the recommended safety protocols including mask wearing, hand washing, and social distancing.  We are grateful to our families for remaining diligent by their continued efforts to keep students home at the first sign of symptoms and for following our district checklist. The risk of additional transmission within our schools is greatly reduced by consistently practicing all of these measures.

Just a reminder that parents of students who are considered in close contact (defined by the CDC as being within 6 feet of the COVID+ individual for a cumulative total of 15 minutes or more within a 24 hour period) will be notified privately by the school. Massachusetts has aligned its quarantine recommendations with recent updates by the CDC. Their data shows that shortened quarantine periods result in only a small chance that someone may develop COVID-19 after leaving quarantine. The small risk that someone may develop COVID-19 after a shortened strict quarantine period is outweighed by the expected benefit of reduced transmission from the expected increased cooperation with adherence to the quarantine, according to the CDC.

The majority of COVID-19 cases have incubation periods fewer than 10 days, although the possible incubation period is still 14 days. During the quarantine period, people must not have visitors in their homes and they cannot have contact with other people who live in their homes.

The 14-day quarantine recommendation remains in place for any person experiencing any COVID-19 symptoms during the quarantine period, even if they have a negative test, and for those unwilling or unable to conduct active self-monitoring of symptoms.

If the person does not have a test and does not have symptoms, they may be allowed to leave quarantine on Day 11 (following 10 days of quarantine).

Under either option, the individual must conduct active monitoring of their symptoms through Day 14 and get tested and isolate if they develop any sign of disease.

The guidance for a person who has tested positive for COVID-19 has not changed, which means they should stay in self-isolation for 10 days. They can resume public activities after the 10 days as long as they have gone for 24 hours without a fever and without taking fever-reducing medications like Tylenol and have experienced improvement in other symptoms, such as a cough that has gotten much better.

Specific information will be provided to any student who may be considered a close contact. 

Please understand that we cannot provide specific information about our school community members who tested positive.  If you have not been contacted by the school, your child was not a close contact of the affected school members.  Please continue to monitor your child for symptoms, and keep your child home if he/she/they shows any symptoms or is not feeling well. If you have any questions please contact the school nurse or building administrator.

We are following all Department of Public Health protocols, including collaborating with our local Anytown Board of Health, to complete contact tracing.  Additionally, we are asking those parents whose students get tested for COVID-19, to please report the results immediately to the school nurse.  We are continuously working hard to understand the impact of the virus on our school community and the timely transmission of information is critical.

We will continue to be vigilant in adhering to all of the state and local protocols that have been put in place while remaining committed to providing instruction and structure and supporting the students’ connection to the classroom.  There is no change to the learning models in any of the schools and we are continuing to have students learn in the hybrid model.  All schools in Anytown remain open at this time. 

For more information on COVID-19 symptoms and testing, visit: https://www.mass.gov/info-details/about-covid-19-testing#where-can-get-a-test?-  and/or https://www.mass.gov/info-details/stop-the-spread

Please contact us immediately should you or someone in your home begin to show symptoms.We are committed to continuous communication with and support of our families. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please contact your school nurse:

If there is additional transmission as a result of this case or a separate case, we will send out another message immediately.  Thank you for your continued support.

Sincerely,

Jow Blow

Superintendent of Schools


Everything below the line (which I put in, is a form letter that appeared on every email).

If someone finds this misleading, then they are looking for issues where there is none.

You don't have to use the oblique "someone". I'M the one that said misleading, and I meant it, and I stand by it.  I'm not looking for an issue; I'm the guy saying there's less issue than many are making it out to (I'm very comfortable with sliding into "COVID is the equivalent of the flu or common cold" attitude when it comes to that).   Maybe we're quibbling about different things - you said "that's on the parents" and that may be true.  That may actually be where my focus should be.   I'm not saying I'm RIGHT, I'm just saying that the bombardment of general information - OUR SCHOOL - to an audience that only really cares about the specific - MY KID - is fraught with peril.  One - or two, or ten - that have COVID in a school of indeterminate size with indeterminate exposure pathways may actually not impact one specific child's risk profile even a little bit.  The notification doesn't change that, but it also doesn't give the information necessary to make that call.

[TAC]

I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.


But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.

It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.

[King Postwhore]

Because you trust the system and Stads does not. 

[Stadler]

I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.


But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.

It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.

Well, to use your analogy, if I heard "9 wins" and thought, WOW, that's GREAT! it would matter who they played for that to be meaningful. The Jets twice, the Lions and the Jaguars, well, that's not as great as I thought.  The Bills, the Chiefs and the Bucs?  Now THAT'S great.

We're locked in this do-loop of "more cases=bad", which, on a macro level is true.  On a personal level, maybe not.  And those emails simply feed that presumption, with no means to offset that.  Again, I'm more than willing to accept that my problem is not with the information, but with the audience, and that's fair.

[hefdaddy42]

It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.

So it's NOT misleading.

[bosk1]

It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.

So it's NOT misleading.

You're being too literal, Draxx.  Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading.  Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth."  That isn't the only variable that matters.

[King Postwhore]

Plus, it's a mutating virus.  Every time different numbers comes up the anti vac crowd thinks that it's all made up.  It's evolving.  So the numbers will change. 


Unlike votes for the Presidency. *Pokes a stick to harass*

[jingle.boy]

Plus, it's a mutating virus.  Every time different numbers comes up the anti vac crowd thinks that it's all made up.  It's evolving.  So the numbers will change. 

Or like the number of carts in a coral.

[TAC]

I actually wasn't directing that to you personally Stadler, but I was to Ben, as I'm not sure he'd ever seen what those letters actually look like.


But you'll have to explain better how a simple factual report of a positive case can be misleading. The only way I could see it was misleading is if the number of cases was different than what was reported.

It's like saying The Patriots have won 9 games this year. How on earth is that misleading? Now they may have deserved to lose a game they won, and perhaps should've won a game they lost. The number is not indicative how "how they're playing" but it does correctly point out the number of wins.

Well, to use your analogy, if I heard "9 wins" and thought, WOW, that's GREAT! it would matter who they played for that to be meaningful. The Jets twice, the Lions and the Jaguars, well, that's not as great as I thought.  The Bills, the Chiefs and the Bucs?  Now THAT'S great.

We're locked in this do-loop of "more cases=bad", which, on a macro level is true.  On a personal level, maybe not.  And those emails simply feed that presumption, with no means to offset that.  Again, I'm more than willing to accept that my problem is not with the information, but with the audience, and that's fair.

See, I used a genius analogy didn't I?

The number of wins does NOT tell the whole story of how the team was playing, as you said..who they were playing, etc..

The number of cases also does not tell the whole story..other than the number of cases. I pull away from your misleading remark because the school has an obligation to report. I suppose you're not insinuating that you're not accusing the school of being intentionally misleading though.



I understand your point. We used to have the news on the lunchroom TV in the store I worked at up until April of this year. It was CNN or MSNBC...something like that. And they had a total cases ticker on the screen, and I really felt it was unnecessary.

[hefdaddy42]

It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.

So it's NOT misleading.

You're being too literal, Draxx.  Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading.  Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth."  That isn't the only variable that matters.

If it's the only thing they are reporting, or claiming to report, then yes it is, when leveling charges of "misleading".

[TAC]

It would be misleading if there were 100 new cases and they said there were 50.

So it's NOT misleading.

You're being too literal, Draxx.  Literally true numbers with omitted context can in fact be very misleading.  Not saying that is the case here, but let's not just waive it away on the basis of "literal truth."  That isn't the only variable that matters.

If a school sends an email home saying 1 kid in the elementary school tested positive, I fail to see how that could be misleading in any way. They're saying 1 kid tested positive...because 1 kid did.

[Stadler]

Well, if you're going to be all literal, then you have to take ALL of the words I wrote into consideration as well.  I said, repeatedly, that I MAY be talking about the PARENTS REACTION not the emails themselves.  So I'm meeting you both half way right out the gate.  And I was VERY clear that I saw the problem as the disconnect between the message itself - which I never once ever even implied was false or not truthful - and the receipt of that message.

So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using.   I'm not saying the email is false; I'm saying that the facts - accurate facts - in the email MAY, and I'd even say "LIKELY", result in reactions that are out of context with the simple idea of "reporting". 

[hefdaddy42]

So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using. 

Not sure what you're using, but Meriam Webster says "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit".  So the only thing that matters is whether the info is factually accurate or not, and if not, if it was inaccurate purposefully.  That's what it means to mislead someone.

I'm not saying the email is false; I'm saying that the facts - accurate facts - in the email MAY, and I'd even say "LIKELY", result in reactions that are out of context with the simple idea of "reporting".

Surely that falls on the people doing the reacting?  And cannot be the fault of accurate information?

I'm not badgering you, I'm just mystified.  You are normally quite precise with your word choice/definitions, and this strange interpretation of "misleading" is freaking me out.

If the car is red, and my only relation to the red car is to tell YOU that the car is red, then I haven't misled you in any way.  If hearing the word "red" is a trigger to you, that's on you, not me.

[jingle.boy]

*awaits story about a blue tie* 

[jammindude]

I think I know what Stadler is trying to say. Even though I’m not actually sure it applies in this instance.

I think the point he’s trying to get across is that if I flick a lighter and then shout out “there’s a fire in the building“ what I am saying is technically true. But it’s misleading people into thinking that the building is actually on fire.

[Lonk]

If I may jump in...

In this situation, what I think Stad means (correct me if I'm wrong) by misleading is that it doesn't pain the full picture, and maybe providing more information might help. Though I think that might cross the line of HIPAA regulations, so I think the most they can do is say the number of cases and leave it at that.

[cramx3]

Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading?  I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself.  Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily. 

[Grappler]

Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading?  I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself.  Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily.

I don't think the emails are worded in a misleading manner.  It's all based an individual's reaction to it.  I get emails like this that are circulated from the landlord of the office building in the city.  "A covid positive person was in the building on X day and was in the common areas and elevator banks."  

My wife gets the emails from the school and has a more guttural reaction to it, thinking that there could be an outbreak or immediately being judgmental towards families in the school district. 

I do agree that reporting cases probably needs to go away.  It seems like it's based on avoiding potential liability more than anything else.  Like I said earlier this morning, there is no way of containing covid any longer.  Families, businesses and schools need to learn to live with it.  A middle school in my district closed a week ahead of Thanksgiving break because they had more than 10 kids in the school test positive.  Remote school for a week plus a week off for Thanksgiving - maybe that's a nice little "reset" to see if kids are healthier upon return.  Pivot to that should cases increase, but stop the official notices, outside of contact tracing for close contact individuals.

[TAC]

So, yea, apparently you're defining "misleading" as being "factually accurate or not" and that's a slightly different definition of "misleading" than I'm using.   

I'd say that your definitition of "misleading" is um..misleading.

[ProfessorPeart]

Man, how'd we get off on this tangent? All this talk of misleading emails and such. Point the guy out. I want a few misleading words with'em.

Oh, wait..........

[Stadler]

If I may jump in...

In this situation, what I think Stad means (correct me if I'm wrong) by misleading is that it doesn't pain the full picture, and maybe providing more information might help. Though I think that might cross the line of HIPAA regulations, so I think the most they can do is say the number of cases and leave it at that.

And this:

Is it possible the idea of even reporting such infections is misleading?  I'm not saying I believe that here (I dont), but maybe the idea of even reporting such issues broadly is misleading in and of itself.  Being that I think, as of right now, it's still important to share some of this information so people can adjust their situations to their appropriate comfort level, but at some point covid is not going to be something we need to publicly report daily. 

These are where I'm parked.  I think this is a case of truthful, accurate information living in a silo and (potentially) leading to BAD decisions by people who don't have full perspective, or don't have OTHER, also truthful, also accurate information that impacts that decision making.

But I have to say, maybe it's me, maybe I'm in a mood because I'm tired (travel across three time zones in three days), anxious (family issues) and anger (another, different family issue), but for fuck's sake.  I agreed with you all; I copped to a different meaning to "misleading", acknowledged that we can all be right here, and some of you are STILL arguing with me.  What do you want?  Me to admit I'm wrong?   Sure, I'm wrong.  It's not misleading.  It is very accurate, not misleading information that, in my opinion and possibly contrary to the consensus here, may possibly lead people to make other, bad decisions. Does that make anyone feel better?   

[King Postwhore]

Stads, would you say a school would be more honest because if they didn't follow protocols there would be a huge outcry.

The government,  not so much because no one trusts the government.

[Stadler]

Stads, would you say a school would be more honest because if they didn't follow protocols there would be a huge outcry.

The government,  not so much because no one trusts the government.

Of course there would be outcry.  We need our institutions to hold our hand and make the world rainbows and candy.    I'm kidding.

I was responding to fairly narrow slice of all that.  I'm not a fan of most of America's CYA when it comes to this stuff, and I have a chip on my shoulder about my colleagues that promulgate that mentality.  I literally watched an ad today while cooking dinner (Gould Injury Law, in case anyone cares) where the guy said if you fell and hurt yourself, someone MUST have done something wrong.   Well, no. Shit happens.  People fall.  People get sick.  People get hurt.  Sometimes, god forbid, people die.  Not everything has to result in a lawsuit and a payday.

I was just responding to the notion that at some point, this virus has to stop being COVID!!! and has to become just Covid. We're not going to get there by making every case newsworthy and having every parent wrapping their kid in tinfoil and cellophane after every email announcing every case. That was really it.  I could have been ranting about the media just as easily.  I know what they are doing and why they are doing it, I just don't think it's as harmless as a piece of paper.

[King Postwhore]

I get that but right now, seems premature. I'll assume it took a long time with the flu though I've never read up on it.

Trust me, I have fatigue as well.

[KevShmev]

Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.

[King Postwhore]

I was just tired Kev after my booster.

[Dublagent66]

Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.

What brand did you get?  I got the Pfizer vaccine.  The 2nd shot wasn't any worse than the first. 

[Grappler]

Getting the booster next Thursday after work. Hoping it doesn't kick my ass like the 2nd shot did back in April.

What brand did you get?  I got the Pfizer vaccine.  The 2nd shot wasn't any worse than the first. 

That's been my experience - everyone I know that had the Pfizer shots had a sore arm and some mild tiredness at the most.   My boss received the Moderna shots and the second and third ones knocked him on his ass for a good day or two.

[TAC]

I had Phizer..
First shot: no issues
Second shot: Fatigue in the morning three days later
Boostah: No issues


My arm was way more sore getting my flu shot a few weeks ago.

[hunnus2000]

I got Moderna:

First Shot - nothing
Second Shot - kill me
Booster - nothing

[King Postwhore]

Moderna

1st shot - Tired
2nd shot - Flu like for 2 days
Booster shot - Tired.


Got my 1st shingles shot with the flu shot this year.  The Shingles shot hurt my arm the most.

[Anguyen92]

Pfizer

1 shot - Arm sore on day 1, slept a lot on the Sunday, felt really crummy on the Monday, and then felt a lot better on the Tuesday
2 shot - Again, soreness on day 1.  Slept a lot on Sunday, felt a lot better on Monday
Booster shot - Got it on 12/01 on a Wednesday.  Felt fine.  Then I felt really crummy on Thursday afternoon.  Then I powered through on Friday and Saturday and then I felt really crummy on Sunday.  Felt better since.

[cramx3]

J&J

First shot, fatigue 24 hours after the shot for about 12 hours
Booster shot, nothing

My sister got a Pfizer booster and her arm blew up. Super swollen with a huge bruise.  It was very noticeable. But she said no other side effects.

[Harmony]

They won't do this for the Covid shots but for flu and shingles get those shots in your gluteal muscles.  As we all walk around and move those large muscles the uptake is faster into your body and there is much less soreness.

I have also done this with tetanus boosters and it works great.

[Buckeye69]

I got Moderna for all 3 and was very lucky and didn't have side effects for any of them.