Coronavirus Thread v.2

[bosk1]

Awesome. 

[Stadler]

Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance.  Felt weird but oddly invigorating.

[Adami]

Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance.  Felt weird but oddly invigorating.

I notice I didn't get a call. 

[Stadler]

Went to a bar in New York City with some coworkers last night and had drinks with no masks, no distance.  Felt weird but oddly invigorating.

I notice I didn't get a call. 

I'm sorry!   It would have been nice to see you.   But I wasn't the senior person in the group so I didn't know when or where I'd be until I was pretty much there!   

[gmillerdrake]

Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).

1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects.  Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future.  With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.

The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.

I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread'  that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.

That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.

I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.

[Ben_Jamin]

Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).

1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects.  Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future.  With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.

The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.

I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread'  that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.

That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.

I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.

We're still here. And we will still be here, as the human race has survived loads of worse turmoil.

I could say a lot more about what causes sickness and death, but I do not want to get into a big argument over it.

To put it simply, the causes of sickness and death deal with how every organism within this Earth relies on each other. Our sicknesses and diseases are reactions to these ways we humans are treating the Earth, no other organism is destroying the balance of Earth. All you need to do is look at the pollution, and the worry of Global Warming, to get a sense of how the human species is affecting the other organisms living in the world.

We rely on the plants and animals for our sustenance. When we put chemicals in the water, air, and land, when we change the environmental habitat of the minerals and organisms, we create a reaction in the animals whom use the water, air, land, minerals, and organisms for sustenance. In turn, when we eat these animals and plants, we absorb these environmental changes, thus what we eat is having an affect on our overall health, as these environmental changes are affecting the overall health of the organisms in the Earth.

If people and humans really do care about our health and ridding ourselves of sickness and disease. I feel, an entire change of mindset and lifestyle needs to happen. Or else, with the way the machine is rolling, it's not going to look good for our future generations down the road. They will experience worse diseases and worse natural disasters than we are seeing today. All for the comforts of the lifestyle humans currently are living.

[jingle.boy]

Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).

1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects.  Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future.  With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.

The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.

I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread'  that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.

That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.

I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.

On this, I agree whole-heartedly.  The rest, not so much.  More and more, the Delta variant is going to bring many States crashing back to the realities the rest of the world has had to deal with - especially those states with low vaccination rates.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/us-heading-for-dangerous-fall-with-surge-in-delta-covid-cases-and-return-of-indoor-mask-mandates.html

Some excerpts:

As the highly transmissible delta Covid variant continues to spread rapidly across the United States and elsewhere around the world, scientists and other health experts are warning that indoor mask mandates and other public health measures will likely make a return in the U.S. this fall.

Authorities in Australia, South Africa and Asia have recently reintroduced curfews or other measures to curb rising delta outbreaks. Japan just declared a coronavirus state of emergency in Tokyo and banned spectators at the Olympics. High vaccination rates in the U.S. and the warm summer months have bought the country some extra time, but outbreaks across the world are giving Americans a preview of what may come this fall.

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

He said he fears there will be “major outbreaks” in the U.S. this fall, especially in states with low vaccination rates.

“We are heading for a very dangerous fall, with large swaths of the country still unvaccinated, a surging delta variant and people taking off their masks,” Gostin added.

Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.

Guys, seriously... and I'm not being Chicken Little here - don't get overly complacent.  Remember the early warnings coming out of Italy and the UK way back in Feb/March last year?  Never thought it could happen in the US, and you guys got it worse for that complacency.  Look to what's happening in the UK, Israel and other places who are MORE vaccinated than the US.

Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

[XeRocks81]

Fair points Gary, but two things are still an issue (in my mind).

1 - The vaccinated people that still catch it (whether mildly, or severely), we don't know if those individuals might potentially suffer from 'long haul' effects.  Only time will tell.
2 - You can't convince me that there won't be a "US variant" at some point in the future.  With many southern states as low as the low 30% of fully vaccinated people, I firmly believe it's a matter if when, not if it will mutate in the US.

The Delta variant is something to be 'concerned' about - not nearly to the extent the world was/should've been with the original strain at the start of the pandemic, but it is still something that is going to cause a lot of sickness and death still.

I don't disagree and again...I'm not trying to dismiss it. I just go back to when this all began and it was 'two weeks to slow the spread'  that was to not overload the hospitals....it was never to make sure that no one caught this. Average, healthy people are not going to die from Covid even if they're unvaccinated. Sure there have been the random one offs of 'healthy' people dying but those who die are almost always people with underlying health issues that Covid intensifies and compounds.

That doesn't mean I want people to die or anything like that....only that, with the amount of vaccinated people out there and our healthcare systems being unlikely to be overwhelmed.....to me it just is what it is now. If you want to run around unvaccinated and take your chances then so be it. You're probably going to get sick at some point.

I personally don't think we will see some massive influx of a new strain infecting at the same rate that the original did due to the amount of people who have either had Covid and/or been vaccinated. I think we're probably looking at something similar to the Flu.....Covid never goes away and it just becomes a part of our lives and as the years progress our systems learn how to better defend against it and we carry on.

On this, I agree whole-heartedly.  The rest, not so much.  More and more, the Delta variant is going to bring many States crashing back to the realities the rest of the world has had to deal with - especially those states with low vaccination rates.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/08/us-heading-for-dangerous-fall-with-surge-in-delta-covid-cases-and-return-of-indoor-mask-mandates.html

Some excerpts:

As the highly transmissible delta Covid variant continues to spread rapidly across the United States and elsewhere around the world, scientists and other health experts are warning that indoor mask mandates and other public health measures will likely make a return in the U.S. this fall.

Authorities in Australia, South Africa and Asia have recently reintroduced curfews or other measures to curb rising delta outbreaks. Japan just declared a coronavirus state of emergency in Tokyo and banned spectators at the Olympics. High vaccination rates in the U.S. and the warm summer months have bought the country some extra time, but outbreaks across the world are giving Americans a preview of what may come this fall.

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

He said he fears there will be “major outbreaks” in the U.S. this fall, especially in states with low vaccination rates.

“We are heading for a very dangerous fall, with large swaths of the country still unvaccinated, a surging delta variant and people taking off their masks,” Gostin added.

Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.

Guys, seriously... and I'm not being Chicken Little here - don't get overly complacent.  Remember the early warnings coming out of Italy and the UK way back in Feb/March last year?  Never thought it could happen in the US, and you guys got it worse for that complacency.  Look to what's happening in the UK, Israel and other places who are MORE vaccinated than the US.

Buckle up, it's going to be a bumpy ride.

The vaccines clearly work, but I also keep thinking that last summer we(US and Canada) were doing pretty good without them until 2nd and 3rd waves started hitting.  Right now places in the southern hemisphere like Autralia are in the winter,  so I'm definitely worried about fall and winter up here. 

[Cool Chris]

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.

[cramx3]

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.

I dont think so here either.  Our Governor in NJ, with some of the most restrictions and yet some of the worst results, had pushed a campaign of move forward and not backward. There will be infections and waves, but all these will be less than 2020 and our capabilities as society to handle them.

[orcus116]

That and I strongly suspect your average person is just fed up with hearing about all of this, especially when you think you did all the right things last year then got the vaccine and all that jazz only for what seems like another effort to move the goalposts back just a little more. Not to be callous but in terms of how this particular virus ended up panning out there's a point where the financial impact outweighs public health impacts and personally I think we're at or beyond that point.

[jingle.boy]

“I could foresee that in certain parts of the country, there could be a reintroduction of indoor mask mandates, distancing and occupancy limits” in the coming months, said Lawrence Gostin, director of the World Health Organization’s Collaborating Center on National and Global Health Law.

There is no way that there will be renewed mask mandates, business shut downs, or any other major restrictions in the US.

Guess you didn't read the article.

In Mississippi, for example, where less than a third of the state’s eligible population is fully vaccinated, officials last week recommended that all residents continue to wear masks indoors as delta becomes the dominant variant in the state. About 96% of new Covid cases in Mississippi are among unvaccinated people, state health officials said on a call with reporters

Mississippi!!!!  And (which I already posted)

Officials in Los Angeles County, California, also recommended last week that “everyone, regardless of vaccination status,” wear masks indoors in public places as a precautionary measure.

Not "mandates" yet, but "recommendations" are the first step in that direction.

I hope your (US) optimism/confidence doesn't come back to bite you in the ass.  I mean, ffs, you're not even 50% vaccinated nationally, Delta cases are growing at a 30% clip, much more transmissible, and even vaccinated people that don't get sick can transmit it ("Even people who are fully protected have cause for concern when it comes to Covid variants. While the vaccines protect well against severe disease and death, they may not protect as well against mild disease or spreading Covid to others").  But, whatever....  America's approach to handling the virus already put it at the top of the leaderboard in cases and deaths.  Ya'll can place you faith in vaccines, but your collective execution of that strategy may not outpace the virus' ability to adapt and mutate.

Just as I stated in Feb '20, time will tell.  A lot of people here were claiming the fears of the virus was being blown out of proportion back then.

[Stadler]

Don't worry so much; the COVIDs will kill off all the deplorable Republicans, and we'll be fine in 18-24 months.  .   I mean that to be more funny than sarcastic, but there has to be a balance.  I was in NYC this week and they are HURTING. BAD.  It cannot go back into lockdown, not for the sake of the 5 or 10% that refuse to be vaccinated or take precautions.  It's bad, I get that, but there's a degree of risk - yes, including risk to you all who do EVERYTHING right - in living on this planet.  This is one of them, and it's not really relevant if it's "preventable" in the strictest sense of the word. 

[XJDenton]

Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.

[King Postwhore]

Current vaccination rates in NY state are 55-60%, so its not the "5-10% that refuse to be vaccinated". Restrictions will be required to keep the R0 in check until that number reaches the required threshold for natural sub-unity R0 values.

It is shocking to see how many Americans are unwilling to get the vaccine.  How is it in other countries?

[ErHaO]

It is going relatively well for us. About 65% of our population have received at least one vaccine dose at this point in time (more than 10 million people). Cases are rising sharply now that most lockdown rules have ended, but hospital numbers remain low and are expected to stay relatively low, as the majority of vulnerable people have had a shot.

But now we have another problem. If we have too many cases, other countries will label us "red", thus significantly impacting the freedom of our citizens in the EU. We are a small country and many people work abroad, so this doesn't just affect holiday plans.

[MoraWintersoul]

Serbia capped out at about 37% fully vaccinated. Granted, a lot of people must have antibodies, because there was an initial spring wave, a very deadly summer wave, and then the standard winter wave, but for the past few months you could have literally walked into a vaccine center, chosen a vaccine and gotten revaccinated in 3 weeks, and they still haven't run out.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's not really surprising to me, as I know and understand just how many different mindsets we have here in America. These mindsets are based on the culture, values, and beliefs, of a society. We have so many that they're butting heads with each other.


America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.

Here's how it is in Mexico.

https://theconsciousresistance.com/indigenous-towns-in-mexico-are-rejecting-the-co-vid-shots/

[King Postwhore]

It's the other culture I'm talking about Ben.  We are also not talking about the common cold.  It's much bigger than one's beliefs.  There are many who call this a hoax.  There is a lot in America that believe that.

[Chino]

America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.

Just realizing? 160 years ago there was a literal war that was Americans vs Americans.

[Ben_Jamin]

It's the other culture I'm talking about Ben.  We are also not talking about the common cold.  It's much bigger than one's beliefs.  There are many who call this a hoax.  There is a lot in America that believe that.

You sure. Cause the destruction of the planet is bigger than ones beliefs. Yet, no one seems to give a shit about the planet. These sicknesses and diseases are the reactions to what we are doing on the planet.

But people have the belief that profits are more beneficial for humans than the ecological value of the planet. In turn, causing us humans more sickness as they deplete the nature in the forests, toxify the waters, and pollute the air.

But they won't change it because they are making profits by using ignorance of 'science' against the people.

Science is good, but it has been used for an agenda before. Like they do when we tell them not to drill on the land, and not to build the pipeline, as it will cause toxifying of the water and not only humans use the water. Plants, and animals use that water, the minerals use that water.


Also, that culture and society has made their decision and who are we to tell them they made a wrong decision? To them, it is good to die for your beliefs. If this pandemic is as bad as the 'experts' say, they'll die off. And you won't have to worry about them and their beliefs getting in the way anymore.


And then you have Fauci saying there's 2 Americas, and that Poll with vaccination and election results. Yeah, that doesn't scream dividing the nation and creating a civil war.

[King Postwhore]

Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized.  In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.

[Ben_Jamin]

Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized.  In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.

Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.

Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.

There are times when it is good to die.

And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.


All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.

[hunnus2000]

I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant. 

This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive  for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?

The unvaccinated  pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.

 What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?

[Stadler]

America is just realizing that not everyone has the same mindset as them, the dominant society mindset. And it's becoming a shock, how people can think and feel differently.

Just realizing? 160 years ago there was a literal war that was Americans vs Americans.

See, I push back on any statement that says we're aware or enlightened about our differences.  America is about as intolerant a society as I can name that still tries to use the words "democracy" and "free will" in the title.   I don't mean racial or identity intolerance; I mean personal intolerance.   We not only tolerate but CELEBRATE marginalizing and ostracizing those that don't see the world "our" way.  if you don't like socialized medicine, you want to kill babies!  If you don't like reasonable immigration policy you're "letting criminals flood our country".  And it gets uglier:  our response now is predominantly ad hominem:  the other side is "deplorable", "unhinged", "radical", "extreme".  I can go back and forth with topics from both sides, where there's almost no acceptance of ANYTHING that violates our precious and sacred world view (which is nothing but opinion; the world is not black and white, right and wrong).

[Stadler]

I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant. 

This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive  for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?

The unvaccinated  pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.

 What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?

All those are choices, not mandates.   I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving.   I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.

I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives.   I'm not.  I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society".  How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists?  How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities.  Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.

[King Postwhore]

Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized.  In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.

Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.

Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.

There are times when it is good to die.

And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.


All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.

Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago.  Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds.  There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades.  Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science. 

I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond.  It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.

[Stadler]

Anyone who tells you it's good to die for your beliefs are radicalized.  In this day and age I hope no one is that willing to give up one's life for nothing.

Dude, people do that all the time. I believe in this bungee cord that it will save me, I have faith it will save me. Yet, it snaps and he dies. He died for his belief that the bungee will save him.

Us Native Americans died for our beliefs and values. We considered it a good day to die.

There are times when it is good to die.

And this is dependant on ones beliefs and values of Death. As death itself is viewed differently throughout the world.


All that you're saying is based on your own values and beliefs. That is your mindset. And not everyone has that same mindset as you.

Ben those beliefs that Native Americans died for were good reasons 200 years ago.  Now, we have a better understanding and can meld both worlds.  There are so many people that think the vaccine was rushed out when in fact it was worked on for decades.  Sometimes you can't always go by believe but you have to by science. 

I'm not forcing anyone to get it but in all honesty people who put their beliefs first need to do their homework and then respond.  It's obvious that the vaccine is working and there is data to back it up.

I have no problem with increased education.  I think we will get many people to - even if in secret - to put aside their vocal "beliefs" and get the vaccine if we give them data.  Calling them "unhinged" and forcing them will not get it done. 

[cramx3]

Speaking of Native Americans....

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ 

[King Postwhore]

Exactly Stads.  People want to live off faith but put some time into the data shown then make a educated decision.

[King Postwhore]

Speaking of Native Americans....

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ 

Thanks Marc.  This goes to show what I was talking about.  200 years later, the Native Americans have embraced both world of faith and science.  Do your homework to find the answers you need.

[hunnus2000]

I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant. 

This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive  for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?

The unvaccinated  pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.

 What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?

All those are choices, not mandates.   I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving.   I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.

I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives.   I'm not.  I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society".  How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists?  How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities.  Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.

OK - so if they choose not to get vaccinated, then they lose certain rights it's that simple. If you "choose" not to drive, fine but if you choose to drive then guess what you have to do?

And BTW, choosing not to drive doesn't harm anyone but choosing not to get vaccinated does harm people and possibly kill them including me.

I'm not saying throw people in jail but seriously curtailing their freedoms to protect society as a whole is not a new concept.

[King Postwhore]

You can't do that but certain private establishments may ask for you to prove your vaccinated or ask to wear a mask still.

[Ben_Jamin]

Speaking of Native Americans....

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/native-americans-highest-covid-vaccination-rate-us/ 

That's only because indigenous people are unhealthy and our rates of unhealthy conditions is high. All due to the depleting of our ecological habitats.

See, they caused us to become so unhealthy by destroying our very fabric of our lives. If they did not we would likely be fine and wouldn't be worrying about it, because our mindset and faith would be on the plants, herbs, and healing traditions we used to utilize. That knowledge was lost during the assimilating.

And now we are relying on them to keep us healthy. When we were Self-Dependant enough to have our own system of healing.

Science is good, and it's a tool for us to use to understand the fabrics of this life and nature. We had this knowledge of science, yet those scientists neglected our perspective, for their own benefits and world view of science. And to use their product rather than what has been used for thousands of years.

[Ben_Jamin]

I think it's time for vaccine mandates and vaccine passports. Children have to get vaccinated for measles, mumps etc.. before they can enroll in school.
Nobody bats an eye when they have to have a license to drive with the whole point of making our streets safer. Nobody bitches about personal freedoms when they are not allowed to smoke in a restaurant. 

This while mindset of personal freedoms and beliefs has gotten out of hand. Whatever happened to good old "personal responsibility" or doing something positive  for the greater whole of society? Governors have signed laws that prohibit businesses from requiring vaccinations of employees. Whatever happened to being pro-business?

The unvaccinated  pose a clear an present threat to all of society so it's time their for freedoms are curtailed. You want to go to a football game then you need to get vaccinated. Eat out? Vaccinate.

 What happens when a variant jumps the vaccine and now we are all in danger again?

All those are choices, not mandates.   I don't have to drive; I know plenty of people that just say no to driving.   I don't have to attend the schools that require vaccinations; I know plenty of people that home school their kids, several because they don't want poison and DNA trackers pushed into their kids' bloodstreams.

I'm glad - sincerely - you're so certain about what other people should do with their lives.   I'm not.  I don't believe we can force people do things just because there might be a benefit to "society".  How about we euthanize unrepentant killers or rapists?  How about we sterilize those with genetic abnormalities.  Go back to my post above; people CAN disagree, including on what the criteria should be for the violation of personal liberties.

OK - so if they choose not to get vaccinated, then they lose certain rights it's that simple. If you "choose" not to drive, fine but if you choose to drive then guess what you have to do?

And BTW, choosing not to drive doesn't harm anyone but choosing not to get vaccinated does harm people and possibly kill them including me.

I'm not saying throw people in jail but seriously curtailing their freedoms to protect society as a whole is not a new concept.

People actually don't have to have a license to drive. It's illegal not to, but the reality is, people still drive without a license or insurance.

And also, how bout we stop driving and polluting the Earth because that's obviously harming people to the point of extinction. All because we consume products made by the destruction of those peoples ecological habitats.

But since that isn't affecting you, who cares about their health and safety, right?

If they're not dying of diseases they're dying from other causes. This virus is not the only thing that kills people. Our actions kill people all the time, yet we are unaware of these situations.