Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Ben_Jamin]

One, I never said YOU said it.  I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles.  And they don't.

Ok fair... but when referencing "these posts" while quoting mine, you can see how it's a direct inference.

That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).

Mistrust is fine, but I had an old boss who used to say "once is an event; twice is a coincidence; three times is a trend".  I've heard/read the 'regret' more than enough times to simply dismiss it as an agenda of the media.

For example:  you and I go to a bar.

This is the most important thing to take away from your last segment.  I cannot wait for the day this happens.  Seriously.

People regret all sorts of things when they're on their death bed. Many regret not making decisions that caused them to be hospitalized and on their death bed. This is the moment when people realize their personal choices and then some end up asking forgiveness from people and from God. Some even die with that regret still lingering as they have not had the chance to ask for redemption and forgiveness from the person they hurt or harmed in any ways by their decision.

[Stadler]

One, I never said YOU said it.  I said that many of the posts here clearly don't account for the fact that different people make different assumptions and have different risk profiles.  And they don't.

Ok fair... but when referencing "these posts" while quoting mine, you can see how it's a direct inference.

I do and I apologize.  I will try to do better.

That the press is putting up articles where people express regret doesn't surprise me. I have a healthy distrust of the motivations of the mass media, as do many here (the difference being that I don't limit my criticism to Fox News).

Mistrust is fine, but I had an old boss who used to say "once is an event; twice is a coincidence; three times is a trend".  I've heard/read the 'regret' more than enough times to simply dismiss it as an agenda of the media.

But I said this to TAC (indirectly) in the Coronavirus/Politics thread.   There are ONLY articles on those sad sacks that regret the decision that flew in the face of the mob.   Connecticut reports their cases and deaths every Thursday; I think last week was 30 deaths from COVID.  I'd like to see articles on all 30, laying out their positions on masks, vaccines, etc. so I can make an informed decision on how many people are sharing that regret, as opposed to just being subject to what that particular media outlet chooses to tell me.

For example:  you and I go to a bar.

This is the most important thing to take away from your last segment.  I cannot wait for the day this happens.  Seriously.

Me too; it's real, though.  Once the border becomes more "normal" I can be in Rochester almost at will, and I don't mind making the additional drive.  (I'm assuming you're not that far from Niagara Falls).

[jingle.boy]

Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus.  Once it's open, we're so getting together.  Sadly, closed for another month at least 

[El Barto]

Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus.  Once it's open, we're so getting together.  Sadly, closed for another month at least 

I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.

[emtee]

Things are getting much better here in FL. I'm thankful.

[hefdaddy42]

I think MOST people are morons, idiots or crazy.  What I THINK doesn't matter.  If I'm trying to understand someone and more importantly trying to convince someone of an alternate path, then no, it doesn't come up.  And before you say "well I'm here, they're not, it doesn't matter", I say it DOES matter.  Can we just use the N-word if there are no African Americans around?  Of course not.  if I had a dime for every PM I've ever gotten here or at MP to the effect of "well, I'd love to participate in P/R but I'd be in over my head" I'd be, well, buying Richard Rawlings' tequila.   And part of that is people not wanting to be called morons, idiots or crazy if someone disagrees with their idea.

So, and just so I'm clear, you never vocally question the mental acuity of shitty drivers that you get stuck behind?

 

Honest to god, no.   In that case, I'm far more likely to call them selfish or self-centered.  That to me is more a matter of courtesy.   If I'm going to resort to questioning someone's mental acuity, it's far more likely to be in the realm of economics (the people that think it makes sense to tax people at 100% of their income and that they will roll over and pay it make me question their ability to function).  But even then, I DO try to practice what I preach.  That I think it, doesn't make it right, and that I'm human doesn't mean that the overall argument is wrong.

OK.  Well, that's all anyone can ask.

 

[jingle.boy]

Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus.  Once it's open, we're so getting together.  Sadly, closed for another month at least 

I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.

*WE* opened the border to you guys.  *YOU* haven't opened it to us.

[cramx3]

https://www.statnews.com/2021/09/20/covid-19-set-to-overtake-1918-spanish-flu-as-deadliest-disease-in-american-history/

The Spanish flu was previously the disease event that caused the biggest loss of life in the United States; the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimate that 675,000 Americans died during the 1918 pandemic, in waves of illness that stretched out over roughly two years in this country.

According to STAT’s Covid-19 tracker, Covid deaths stand at roughly 674,000.

[El Barto]

Dude, I'm 60 mins from Rochester - I live 5 minutes from the Peace Bridge, and have Nexus.  Once it's open, we're so getting together.  Sadly, closed for another month at least 

I thought they had already opened the border back up? I was loooking to get to Canadia's Wonderland to ride some coasters in October, and it was looking like that would work out.

*WE* opened the border to you guys.  *YOU* haven't opened it to us.

Holy shit, they finally listened to me!!! 

[King Postwhore]

 

Those dangerous Canucks!

[hunnus2000]

Things are getting much better here in FL. I'm thankful.

Please tell us more! I'll be the first to give a thumbs up at good news!

Based on your posts you have been having quite the time at your hospital. Have things eased up?

[hunnus2000]

What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/


Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.

And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy.  And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.

They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.

But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.

So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?

[Stadler]

What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/


Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.

And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy.  And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.

They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.

But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.

So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?

I don't know. How many?   I think it depends on where you get your info; CNN is reporting where the clerk gets punched and the "sane" patron gets tossed out unfairly; Fox is likely highlighting where the owner is being persecuted and the patron is only interested in making a political point and/or increasing their Facebook Likes.

If they are upfront and say it's political, is that any different than, say, a restaurant that pushes a different political agenda?  No one seemed to have much problem when workers refused service to Ted Cruz, or other patrons got all up in his grill while eating.  There was a video here a couple years ago of someone dumping a soda on someone with a "Make America Great Again" hat on.  Do we feel the same way about that? 

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.  I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things.  I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).

[El Barto]

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.  I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things.  I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).

In Rowlett it'll help his cause. It's like that idiot woman with the hair salon. The number of people in Rockwall County who will show up to support him (and had probably never heard of him before) will greatly outnumber the people who will avoid his place of business. Unless he gets sued, this will be a good business move for him.

[Ben_Jamin]

What do you all think about the restaurant owner in Texas kicking out patrons for wearing a mask (they have an immunocompromised child at home)?

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/09/18/rowlett-restaurant-owner-explains-no-mask-policy-after-asking-family-to-leave/


Personally, I'd never take my business there and while I feel bad for the customers, I also feel like if he is not violating local rules around masking, he should run his business how he sees fit.

And that also includes any consequences he has from making this policy.  And even though the local news affiliate only identified him as "Tom" he has been public about it on his social media pages.

They were talking about this on the radio this morning. They were told twice before the owner came over and kicked them out. Once when they were entering the facility and once when the hostess came over. It's a bar and grill so there was a band playing so maybe when they were checking ID they thought they had to pull their mask down for identification and I think the couple was more confused than anything.

But the second time around the hostess or waitress told them to take off their masks and leave them off AND she said 'yes, it's political'. That's just what I heard this morning.

So I agree that the guy can run his business how he sees fit but how many reports have we seen where a business require masks and a clerk gets a punch in the face or shot because of "merican" freedoms?

I don't know. How many?   I think it depends on where you get your info; CNN is reporting where the clerk gets punched and the "sane" patron gets tossed out unfairly; Fox is likely highlighting where the owner is being persecuted and the patron is only interested in making a political point and/or increasing their Facebook Likes.

If they are upfront and say it's political, is that any different than, say, a restaurant that pushes a different political agenda?  No one seemed to have much problem when workers refused service to Ted Cruz, or other patrons got all up in his grill while eating.  There was a video here a couple years ago of someone dumping a soda on someone with a "Make America Great Again" hat on.  Do we feel the same way about that? 

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days.  I ought to be able to go to a barbeque restaurant and eat good ribs independent on whether the owner and I agree in whole or in part on political issues, or even wildly disagree on even basic things.  I think what the owner did here was penny-wise and pound foolish at best; but I also think that when some owner throws out a customer for racist stuff or refuses service to "deplorables" is wrong too, so what do I know (even though the argument - he/she can run their business as they want and consequences!" is the same).

You do also have people out there crying about Chik Fil A being a Christian owned business, and it has nothing to do with the services they provide.

I myself am Bi-sexual, yet I love their chicken and waffles fries. According to the LGTBQ culture and society, Me eating at Chik Fil A, is sacrilege. But, to me, it's sacrilicious. And that is one reason I do not abide or comply with whatever the hell LGTBQ culture is.


What I learned from this incident is these passports can give rise to prejudice claims.

[Lonk]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

[jingle.boy]

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. 

What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement.  It's a health-related accessory.  it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch.  Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer.  While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.

Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask.  One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position.  The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.

[cramx3]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

I just read about this too, I love Carmines so this kind of sucks to see happen there.  But kind of hard to comment when like you said, the facts aren't really solid yet.

[Ben_Jamin]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

There we go....

The matter of fact lies with these people being unaware and maybe a bit entitled to go and visit NYC, the place with the strictest vaccine mandate orders, with no exemptions. They then assaulted the worker, placing them in harm's way not because of Covid, but because of the vaccine requirement being enforced. This lead to the entitled people demanding to ignore the rules and be serviced.

BLM is just trying to make this a racial issue when it clearly is not one at all. And I gave the reasons why it's not racial in the slightest bit. Even if that server did say something racist. The fact those people felt entitled to ignore that businesses demands is what led to that person even saying that supposed racist remark.

[Stadler]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault. 

[Adami]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

[Ben_Jamin]

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. 

What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement.  It's a health-related accessory.  it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch.  Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer.  While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.

Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask.  One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position.  The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.

Masks are not political, yes.

Although, they became political when they enacted the vaccination mandates and requirements to enter a business. The government took all that responsibility and reliability from itself and handed it to the businesses. So now the businesses themselves are responsible and reliable for enacting these mandates.

Which is a sly move by the government so they can claim, our hands aren't dirty, see we're not the ones responsible.

[Ben_Jamin]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.

People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....

It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.

It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.

[Stadler]

Don't get me wrong; I think that there's far too much politics in every day life these days. 

What's bizarre is that a mask is quite literally NOT a political statement.  It's a health-related accessory.  it's tantamount to, refusing service to someone with a portable oxygen tank; using a cane/crutches; wearing a blood sugar monitoring patch.  Using these items cause no harm to anyone else, while the lack of use MAY cause harm to the wearer.  While these patrons were using it as a health measure, it was the owner/employees that made it a political issue.

I agree with you up to a point.   It is (a health issue) when you are deciding for yourself whether to use one.   Once you start TELLING others to, it becomes at least in part, something else. 

It is (a health issue) when the owner is setting the rules.  Once someone objects and it makes national news, it becomes at least in part, something else.

In our society it seems anyone can escalate whenever they feel it's an advantage.

Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask.  One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position.  The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.

Well, the standard "objection" to the harm issue.   It's far too subjective a standard to be used to control the behavior of others.  I have NO DUTY to minimize your "potential harm". 

I have two reactions to these stories beyond the "right" and "wrong" of it.   One, I hope for consistency; if we support the owner here, I would hope we would support the owner if they removed people wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat as well.  If you support the patrons, I would hope you would support the patrons if they had a "Make America Great Again" hat as well.  I feel like too often the support is tied to the message, and that doesn't work for me.

Two, and this is common to the Carmine's* story as well, but I think we've really lost the magic of just "walking away".   Was I that couple I would have just left.  So what that they don't want me - and my choices - in there?  So what that I have to go to another place to eat?  I have no "right" to eat there.  And why would I want to eat there to begin with? 



* if it's the Carmine's I'm thinking of - on 44th Street off Times Square - that place is excellent. 

[Stadler]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

I wasn't looking to make a statement here; I just didn't assume it was the N-word.   I don't disagree that using the N-word in that context is racism (I don't agree that ANY use of the word is de facto racism; if I opted to spell it out here that wouldn't make me a racist.) but there are other words that are perceived by some as being "racial slurs" (in quotes to delineate a defined term, not to call into question whether they are or are not).  I was making the point that in terms of justifying violence, there's an element of "mutuality" to it.     

[Stadler]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.

People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....

It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.

It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.

The thing about "labels" that I find fascinating is who gets to determine what the label is and why.   It all boils down to in-groups and out-groups.  We'd be far better off as a society and civilization if we stopped making arbitrary and subjective determinations - often on the fly - as to what out-groups are acceptable and what ones are not, and started simply acknowledging that "out-groups are to be avoided". 

[Adami]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

I wasn't looking to make a statement here; I just didn't assume it was the N-word.   I don't disagree that using the N-word in that context is racism (I don't agree that ANY use of the word is de facto racism; if I opted to spell it out here that wouldn't make me a racist.) but there are other words that are perceived by some as being "racial slurs" (in quotes to delineate a defined term, not to call into question whether they are or are not).  I was making the point that in terms of justifying violence, there's an element of "mutuality" to it.   

That's fair. The women charged with the assault, as far as I remember, claimed she was using specifically the N word. Again, not a reason to get violent, but definitely racist if true.

[Stadler]

We agree!

I feel sick. 

[Adami]

We agree!

I feel sick. 

Mission accomplished.

[Lonk]

* if it's the Carmine's I'm thinking of - on 44th Street off Times Square - that place is excellent.

Same branch, different location on the Upper West Side (92nd and Broadway).

[Ben_Jamin]

Talking about restaurants, one of my favorite restaurants in NYC, Carmines, is dealing with some drama. It started as a vaccination issue and transformed into a BLM issue.

https://abc7ny.com/hostess-assaulted-carmines-uws/11033024/

The "facts" seem to be all over the place but here are the main points:
-Group of individuals from Houston, TX wanted to go into the restaurants. Seem that some of them did not have proof of vaccination (required to dine in NYC restaurants).
-One of the woman attacks the hostess from the restaurant, giving her a concussion that sent her to the hospital.
-Some people from that group were arrested and charged with assault.
-They now want the charges dropped and the hostess to be fired, claiming the hostess used a racial slur and was discriminating.

A bit messy, there were BLM protest at the restaurant yesterday.

Well, the devil is in the details, but I REALLY hope that "perceived racism" doesn't become an affirmative defense for bodily assault.

I would agree, even without needing to dismiss it as "perceived racism". You can say alleged, since it's not proven I guess, but I'd say calling someone the N word, if that's what happened, is just racism. Not perceived racism, and not needing quotes.

That said, calling someone the N word, or calling me the K word (that feels weird to type) isn't carte blanche to get physical.

You know I find interesting about derogatory words. Every society has a term or word they call the other. And some of these terms are derogatory terms. They could be considered racist, but what happens when that term is a part of the language. Negro is a Spanish term for the color Black. If you're ignorant of that fact, it could be considered racist. But if one does not know what to call someone, and doesn't know what the term "Black" means in english, they're gonna use terms they know and Negro happens to be one.

People were/are referring to the Tohono O'Odham as the Apache derogatory term for them, "Papago". Because the colonizers met the Apache first and they referenced the TO people as the term Papago, and the colonizers assumed that's what those people were named and when they went to TO and met them, they got a nice stern look and talking to for telling them they're Papago....

It's like saying, those Texans are deplorables, and then assuming that is what Texans are known as, and going to Texas and saying... Howdy good Deplorable people.

It's very, very hard to claim racism when you have a mixing pot of different cultures of people who speak different languages intermingling with people whom feel entitled to demand things from people.

The thing about "labels" that I find fascinating is who gets to determine what the label is and why.   It all boils down to in-groups and out-groups.  We'd be far better off as a society and civilization if we stopped making arbitrary and subjective determinations - often on the fly - as to what out-groups are acceptable and what ones are not, and started simply acknowledging that "out-groups are to be avoided".

Yes, and one that I am adamant about in regards to labelling. All you need to do is look at all these places, sacred and non-sacred,  we native people have been calling them. Yet, who determines that these places should be called, "devil's peak", or "Rio Grande River"...We had names, we've been calling them that and still do.

So what should these be named. They are named and called by however that tribes language calls or describes that place. Not all tribes have the same english meaning for what they term/label that place. Yet, each one knows the place because the labeling term is often a descriptor for the environmental habitat and structures of that place, or what was found around there or living there already.

Which it is very important to understand why these outsiders labelled a place in those terms, like "devil's peak" or the dances like the Apache Crown Dancers being known as "The devil dancers"

[lonestar]

San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...

"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"

Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....

Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.

[Ben_Jamin]

San Francisco mayor London Breed, in defense of being photographed at a night club mask less...

"Like, we don't need the fun police to come in and try and micromanage and tell us what we should or shouldn't be doing. We know what we need to do to protect ourselves,"

Liberal politicians make it really hard to defend them sometimes....

Seriously though, she needs to fuck off with this attitude.

Or they just don't care, and are trying to save face when they get caught. They're humans, and are prone to all the faults of the common man. Just because they're a politician doesn't mean they are not capable of this kind of attitude. She's just being exposed by getting caught.

[jingle.boy]

Refusing service to someone NOT wearing a mask is *not* the same as refusing service to someone FOR wearing a mask.  One is a public health measure; the other is solely a political position.  The former has the potential to cause harm to others; the latter causes no harm to anyone.

Well, the standard "objection" to the harm issue.   It's far too subjective a standard to be used to control the behavior of others.  I have NO DUTY to minimize your "potential harm". 

Never said you did (at least, in this scenario  )

I have two reactions to these stories beyond the "right" and "wrong" of it.   One, I hope for consistency; if we support the owner here, I would hope we would support the owner if they removed people wearing a "Make America Great Again" hat as well.  If you support the patrons, I would hope you would support the patrons if they had a "Make America Great Again" hat as well.  I feel like too often the support is tied to the message, and that doesn't work for me.

Two, and this is common to the Carmine's* story as well, but I think we've really lost the magic of just "walking away".   Was I that couple I would have just left.  So what that they don't want me - and my choices - in there?  So what that I have to go to another place to eat?  I have no "right" to eat there.  And why would I want to eat there to begin with? 

Stop the presses... we agree on something!   In fact, I don't disagree with anything in the above.  My only point was the owner that refuses service to a masked patron is not exactly* the same as the owner that refuses service to an unmasked patron.

*it COULD be... I'm sure there are many owners that us the 'unmasked' circumstance as a reason to refuse service to someone they just don't want to serve.

[Stadler]

No argument here, Chad, just explanation:  I'm getting a little tired (generally, not with you or DTF) of this idea that there is an explanation for everything.   Our society is devolving into a cesspool of rationalizations.   Watch any reality TV show, and the worst behavior is ALWAYS justified.  "He did this".  "She said that".   The cooking shows I watch:  EVERYONE has a story or an angle that somehow makes them more deserving of winning. When EVERYONE has a story or a rationalization, by definition - in a society that adheres to the rule of law - NO ONE does.    Except in the most egregious of cases, where a distinct "right" is at risk, I don't really care what the rationalization is at this point. 

I think from the standpoint of the patron, and their presence in the restaurant (or not), it doesn't matter what the owner thinks.  There's no moral high ground with "mask" or "no mask" for those of us that feel he can refuse service for any reason or no reason at all.