Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Skeever]

Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".

I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no. But I think the Atlantic article you dismissed earlier was a little bit more levelly reasoned than you may be giving credit. Other than that, isn't this along the lines of what the FDA are currently debating (i.e., whether boosters should be happening, or whether we should be transitioning to a more sustainable pattern of boosting the elderly/at risk after the mass populations get their initial inoculations).

I don't think there are many debating that initial inoculations aren't key to getting us out of the worst of the pandemic. But I agree that complete COVID eradication is probably never happening now. With that in mind, I do think it is more than fair to ask whether we should really be talking about boosters, or whether we should, as the WHO recommended, be focusing on initial inoculations for the mass population (even when we know some people's minds will never be changed) and then providing boosters for those who really need them going forward. These are all fair questions.

As an aside, the fact that the Biden admin have already positioned themselves as wanting to provide boosters to the full population against the WHO's guidance and outside of FDA internal controls is a bit concerning - but doesn't it also put at least a chink in the idea that the WHO, the FDA and Biden are all bedmates in some conspiracy?

[Luoto]

You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.

There was an extensive randomized study conducted in Bangladesh, and the results straight up debunk the claim of properly worn surgical masks not preventing spread.

Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/masks-study-covid-bangladesh/
Actual preprint: https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf

[lonestar]

In b4 Washington Post is biased rag journalism.

[darkshade]

Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".

I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no.

Luckily for you, Dore shuts up most of the time, allowing the doctor to speak uninterrupted for the majority of the video.

[Ben_Jamin]

FDA approval means little to me, either way, especially without long-term data.

I suspect this is where we disagree, because while we definitely could agree on a number of things, chiefly: corporate boards that run companies like Pfizer being driven by self-interest and profit alone; the government being corrupt; regulatory bodies being imperfect and inconsistent; the media being out of control, and so on, at the end of the day, it's still the best bet to stick with the guidance. Because what is the alternative?

I'm sure we all have tolerances for how closely we follow the guidance. There were things my family did that were not recommended, as I'm sure the same is true for you and your family. But that vaccine? That's the best shot we've got at getting back to normal. At this point, even if the whole thing were one big lie, just to line Pfizer's pockets, I'd take the damn thing, just to get it over with. Because what else can you do? *I* don't believe it's a big lie, in fact I know plenty of people who've been negatively affected, some even fatally. But, just sayin'...

I totally get where you're coming from... that the powers-that-be lie to us when they're at their worst, and even when they're at their best, fail to stop the myriad of incentives from causing terrible chain reactions that lead humanity down paths it would not have deliberately chosen. Sadly, change doesn't happen overnight, and improvements come slowly...  this has been our species from Day Zero. It just takes time.

Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".

And did he cover the bit I referred to (and posted a study for last week) about vaccines covering a broader spectrum of mutations than natural immunity, which will typically only cover the source infection? If every single person on the planet got Covid tomorrow, it wouldn't solve the problem. It'd just explode the number of mutations overnight, rather than gradually over time. I'm not a doctor, but the logic suggests that if every person got vaccinated tomorrow, the creation of new mutations might actually cease at some point, as the number of available walking Petri dishes was slashed to a tiny fraction of what there are now.

From what I recall, he explained that the virus finds a way around the vaccines, and that the vaccinated wind up being the super spreaders.
I could be mixing a statement or two up, I'll have to re-watch soon.

Everyone should just watch the interview, so you're not hearing it from me, since I'm not a medical professional.

Most people do not want to waste their precious time on long videos.

I find this concept of "Precious Time Spent" to be really fascinating in how much our time is scheduled around a routine that any distraction to it ends up almost becoming burdensome for some people. And how it relates and has effects to the concepts of Routine and Time Management. It's a reason why I also love The Astonishing as it has this concept with the people in the story not having any precious time to be wasted on music.

Did you watch/listen to the Jimmy Dore clip I posted with Dr. Robert Malone on page 55 of this thread? He discusses that inquiry, and his answer may be the solution. He said something along the lines of "we won't be able to vaccinate our way out of the pandemic" and talked about the reasons why, much of it was natural exposure for every human being is necessary, and why the vaccines won't work long term for the entire population of the planet. If he's wrong, I'd like to hear why from another member of the medical community by dissecting his reasoning, not just "well, he's wrong" or "well, he's a quack".

I don't have a ton of tolerance for Dore, so no. But I think the Atlantic article you dismissed earlier was a little bit more levelly reasoned than you may be giving credit. Other than that, isn't this along the lines of what the FDA are currently debating (i.e., whether boosters should be happening, or whether we should be transitioning to a more sustainable pattern of boosting the elderly/at risk after the mass populations get their initial inoculations).

I don't think there are many debating that initial inoculations aren't key to getting us out of the worst of the pandemic. But I agree that complete COVID eradication is probably never happening now. With that in mind, I do think it is more than fair to ask whether we should really be talking about boosters, or whether we should, as the WHO recommended, be focusing on initial inoculations for the mass population (even when we know some people's minds will never be changed) and then providing boosters for those who really need them going forward. These are all fair questions.

As an aside, the fact that the Biden admin have already positioned themselves as wanting to provide boosters to the full population against the WHO's guidance and outside of FDA internal controls is a bit concerning - but doesn't it also put at least a chink in the idea that the WHO, the FDA and Biden are all bedmates in some conspiracy?

I am finding the effects of people "biding their time", "waiting it out" to be quite telling. Only in regards to how the authorities figures are utilizing the power. And there are studies out there that show what happens when people do have that power of authority and how far it can go.

[lonestar]

 

[darkshade]

You have to consider that mask mandates (AFAIK) aren't mandating the masks that actually do anything, like the N95s with a filter. They're just telling people "wear a mask dammit". Most people walking around with a mask on are either wearing surgical masks which do next to nothing, or a cloth mask or self-made one, which do absolutely nothing at preventing spread. So unless the government/schools are mandating the right kind of masks, it's all quite silly.

There was an extensive randomized study conducted in Bangladesh, and the results straight up debunk the claim of properly worn surgical masks not preventing spread.

Washington Post article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/09/01/masks-study-covid-bangladesh/
Actual preprint: https://www.poverty-action.org/sites/default/files/publications/Mask_RCT____Symptomatic_Seropositivity_083121.pdf

I can't read it right now, and I apologize if this is covered already, but the problem is people don't always wear a fresh clean mask, or put one on with clean, sanitized hands. People also fidget with their mask often, take it off, put it back on, wear it under their nose, remove it to rest under their chin, hang them around their rear view mirror in their car, and on and on. Then you have people with the vax thinking they don't need to wear one anymore, at least that was their thinking a few months back, and no stores requiring masks since a few months back as well due to 'recommendations'.

Then there's the fact that you have bad messaging from the world's governments (especially the USA) and medical community. Fauci lied about needing masks at the onset of the pandemic. Then said you need a mask. The said you should wear two masks. That gets people thinking they're making it up as they go, and at best, are straight lying to the masses, which they did, and people are worked up over this covid shit for the last 19 months now. That is a recipe for disaster. Fauci also lied for a 2nd time to Congress the other day, about Gain of Function research at the Wuhan China lab. Any random US citizen would have been jailed by now for something like that, forget the fact that this virus has caused the deaths of MILLIONS of people around the world.

[jingle.boy]

I believe I am the second smartest person here (Adami is smartest, but he will disagree with me on principle, and so I'm back to number one).

On the rest of your post ... we'll agree to disagree, including the part where you say you ARE right.  You may be, but there are points where I may be right.

[jingle.boy]

Eating horse pills from the feed store? Moron. Taking it in a responsible measure, despite no prescription? Not a moron.

It does beg the question ... how does one come to the conclusion that taking Ivermectin is a reasonable thing to do to combat COVID, but taking a vaccine is not?

Approved for that use?  Vax - yes; IV - no
Researched and studied and peer reviewed for that use?  Vax - yes; IV - no
Long term research?  Vax - no; IV - no
100s of millions of real-world data points available?  Vax - yes; IV - no

Under those four criteria alone, I just can't wrap my head around someone being anti-vax, but pro Ivermectin.  Under what criteria does Ivermectin come out on top?

Plenty of people opt for the reactive rather than proactive.  Anyone who says "I'm young, I'm healthy, I don't need healthcare" is taking this position (I've done it).   Anyone who says "I don't need a will, I'll wait till I'm retired" is taking this position.   Ah, fuck it, I'm not going to fix that oil leak; I'll just add a quart when I need to.  Any woman out there ever think "well, I COULD demand a condom, but... eh, he said he'll pull out, so I'll deal with it tomorrow."?

f nothing else, it makes a certain logic:  if you think either one could - COULD, not WOULD - hurt you, and you take the vaccine and still get sick, you're taking BOTH.  If you say screw it, and just see if you get sick - not EVERY unvaccinated person has or will get COVID - and take the Ivermectin, you're only getting one dose of "bad".   (There have been 42 million cases or thereabouts, and 150 million unvaccinated at this point).     

It's not all that odd, actually.

Is there anything you don't have a counter-point to?    You make good points, even if they're largely irrelevant in the face of a global pandemic. My point on this matter, is that the arguments against vaccination are largely also arguments against something like Ivermectin, but people are still willing to explore the latter.  That's what I don't understand.  I get some people are procrastinators - at the expense of there own lives and livelihood.  That wasn't my point.

But if that was my point, I guess I'm just one of those kinds of people that subscribes to the notion that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure - literally in this sense.  I'm not sure I've ever heard the saying 'why take a ounce of prevention when an a pound of cure is gonna be a bigger risk than reward'.

[jingle.boy]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

[lonestar]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.

[darkshade]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.

[lonestar]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.

Well thank the stars mine is black.

[lonestar]

Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.

[TAC]

Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.

I spoke with the pharmacist in my store last week and merely being diabetic doesn't get me on the "high risk" list yet.

[El Barto]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.

You know how they tested the efficacy of various masks against the virus? They had covid patients put on masks and cough directly onto petri dishes of agar. Those cheapo surgical masks you see people wear actually do help. Are they impervious? Of course not. Can germs still get around them? Obviously. They don't seal all that well. Do they keep people from shooting directed streams of covid all over the guy in front of them? Yeah, they actually do pretty well at that. As they say, perfection is the enemy of good. Even though those masks worn loosely are only 39% effective, don't you see how that's better than 0? Seems to me that if wearing a cheap mask that doesn't even do much to restrict your breathing or make your nose hurt could reduce the spread by 25%, that's a pretty worthy step, and you'd be kind of a dick to ignore that.

[El Barto]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.

I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.

[jingle.boy]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

I'm not claiming to be an expert. From what I've read from various sources (they even say it on the packaging) that those blue or white surgical mask do little, if anything, to stop the spread of coronaviruses.

Well thank the stars mine is black.

You owe me a coffee and a keyboard.

Saying masks don't work is like saying seatbelts don't work.  If the measurement is 100% effectiveness against virus spread or injury from a car accident, then of course neither work.

[jingle.boy]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.

I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.

This post isn't totally unfair, but I do have to ask.... how high are you right now? 

[Adami]

This is where I will reluctantly agree with Stadler’s point. If the people kind and polite and informative are getting nowhere (which it appears) and the people being snarky and mocking are getting equally nowhere, why bother with the negativity? If someone is secure in their position and shows no sign of wanting to question it much, then I say leave it be. Adding to the toxicity isn’t doing much.

[lonestar]

 

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.

I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.

I get that, and do agree compared to what I've seen elsewhere, but I just harken back to your dancing goalposts gif. No matter the presentation, the rhetoric will always be fluidic to fit the mindset.

[El Barto]

surgical masks which do next to nothing,

Pretty sure most every single surgeon in the world would disagree with you.  Edit... Bart addressed it more thoroughly than I will.

You really don't know much about these things do you?  I'd try to share with you the purpose of masking is, but I'm pretty sure you're not open to changing you mind on the matter.

Don't bother, the only thing you'll succeed in doing is adding damage to your eventual carpal tunnel.

I haven't really determined if he's open to receiving new data yet. My hunch is no, but I'm not ruling it out. I do know that he's been respectful and presented his arguments reasonably well. I wouldn't be engaging with him otherwise. I see no reason to be rude in dismissing him out of hand. He's conducting himself far better than most of his mindset, so I'm content to treat him better than most of those numbskulls.

This post isn't totally unfair, but I do have to ask.... how high are you right now? 

Still at the office. It'll be a couple of hours before I get started on that.

Really, I think people are kind of proving Stadler's point here. I don't exclude myself in that, either. I've had to check my contempt a few times, with varying degrees of success. But so long as he's being respectful, and so long as I think he's arguing in good faith, I see no reason not to do the same. 

[TAC]

This will all make a great eulogy.

[Ben_Jamin]

Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.

I would go see a doctor and ask if you're case of diabetes is severe enough for you to take a booster.

[lonestar]

Second FDA vote is unanimous in favor of boosters for the elderly and those at high risk, so I guess my diabetic ass needs to roll up the sleeves again.

I would go see a doctor and ask if you're case of diabetes is severe enough for you to take a booster.

I'm always in contact with my GP and my diabetic care team concerning any medical decisions. One thing Kaiser is fantastic about is putting a system in place that heavily favors preventative medicine which works great for those willing to work it.

[Cool Chris]

Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.

“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”

Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.

[lonestar]

Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.

“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”

Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.

They don't go for that shit way up Rocky Top

[Anguyen92]

Knox County Mayor Glenn Jacobs said his county would not comply with the lawless order.

“In Knox County, we know what we stand for. We stand for freedom. We stand for the rule of law. We stand for the Constitution,” Jacobs said in a letter addressed to the president. “And you can rest assured that we will stand against your blatant and egregious executive overreach.”

Biden's done it now, he's pissed off the Big Red Machine.

Sweet, I smell a Tombstone the president scenario or set him on fire.  He's already delivered a Tombstone to a priest before.  Heck, long ago before Trump became president, Stone Cold Steve Austin gave a stunner to the prior president and one to that one person in Trump's cabinet that overseas something in small businesses or whatever position that Linda McMahon had in Trump's cabinet.  Sports Entertainment is wacky that way. 

I mean, I didn't expect Glenn Jacobs to give a different answer at all.

[TAC]

Boston Globe article.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/nurses-have-had-enough-of-this-nonsense/ar-AAOAj1e?ocid=hplocalnews

My mother worked in the OR in this hospital for years when I was growing up.

[Ben_Jamin]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/it-will-take-five-years-for-some-hospitals-to-catch-up-with-patient-backlog-after-covid-experts-warn/ar-BB1fLLVS

Even if people had gotten vaccinated. These Healthcare workers would not be getting rest, and would then have to shift their attention to this backlog of patients that were put on hold. And who is to say this won't be how these healthcare workers feel here in the US. Now they complain about the unvaccinated still getting covid, and not wanting to treat them. But yet, they will still likely complain about this and still walk out of the workplace and force many people to go without care. 

These latest concerns follow a row over medics' wages, with many claiming they will leave the profession, causing catastrophic staff shortages, if the government doesn't improve salaries across the board.

[King Postwhore]

Ben, you have to know how stressed these employees are on the front line. Add that if they get affected being vaccinated,  at least the symptoms are extremely lessened.

You keep forgetting to point that out.  It you were in their position,  you would have a better understanding.

[Ben_Jamin]

Ben, you have to know how stressed these employees are on the front line. Add that if they get affected being vaccinated,  at least the symptoms are extremely lessened.

You keep forgetting to point that out.  It you were in their position,  you would have a better understanding.

When haven't they been stressed. Even before Covid-19, some of them were complaining about the stress of being overworked and overwhelmed with little pay and leave.


What they want isn't going to be solved with not having an influx of Covid patients. That profession is not one that is not stressful, it's highly stressful and very emotional. Not everyone can handle it and not everyone is capable of being in that field. This is where a person intent on being in that profession gets tested. Did they do it for the money? Did they do it because they care? Or did they do it because they just chose to do that and it's not what their passion was to be?


This stems from that effect of praising people to the status of heroes and gods. That status offered can create the big head effect of a swollen ego. Which can lead to someone who is desperately wanting to be noticed and seen will take that profession with the intent to be noticed and praised as that hero.


I feel sympathy for them because their profession is not that well handled. It's the same sympathy I have for the teachers. It's not their fault for the stress they are dealing with. I feel the main problem lies with the system and that is what needs to be dealt with in order for these workers to not become so stressed and mentally overwhelmed to where they end up getting that emotion of resentment to those people they should be taking care of regardless if that person made a stupid choice to be in the hospital in the first place.

[King Postwhore]

My wife works at a hospital and there is no swollen egos as you think.  Just lots of stress.

[ReaperKK]

My wife works at a hospital and there is no swollen egos as you think.  Just lots of stress.

My wife is a nurse educator and every hospital she visits she says the same thing.

[Ben_Jamin]

Dr. Joseph Fraiman says, "I know many think the vaccine hesitant are dumb or just misinformed. That's not at all what I've seen, in fact typically independent of education level, the vaccine hesitant I've met in the ER are more familiar with vaccine studies and more aware of their own Covid risk than the vaccinated."

"FDA committee meets to debate and vote on Covid booster shots for the general public — 9/17/21"
https://youtu.be/bQevYc2jX7Y?t=14963

Did you guys see this...Very, very interesting discussions being made by the FDA committee.