Coronavirus Thread v.2

[Ben_Jamin]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

The funny thing is...People are the ones themselves that make things important as they are. People can become accustomed to change so much that what was once meant as a temporary change, ends up becoming the norm.

So this acceptance is what may end up happening as people submit because of their comforts in safety.

[hefdaddy42]

You can still be vaccinated and test positive and therefore still able to transmit that virus.

Yes???

I mean, everyone knows that.  Although the chances are much, much lower than for unvaccinated people.

[Ben_Jamin]

You can still be vaccinated and test positive and therefore still able to transmit that virus.

Yes???

I mean, everyone knows that.  Although the chances are much, much lower than for unvaccinated people.

The game of chance here is Death and Hospitalization. With the vaccine this chance goes drastically down. Especially for those vulnerable.

If one does not know about a persons sickness, such as with Norm McDonald, and that person goes out into the world knowing their chance of death is still high (even if he was unable to take a vaccine) we wouldn't even care about whether our actions are affecting his health. It is until people know when people begin to show any signs of caring. Then you get  people going into sympathy and caring mode and start treating that person differently, almost as if they're too fragile to live life and assess the risks on their own for their game of chance with death.

Some of these people are so bad in their health that even me getting a vaccine won't prevent death as they could get sick from some other bacteria lingering around somewhere else that I nor anyone else has touched besides themselves that is lying around their house. Bacteria is everywhere and certain kinds around household areas can affect peoples health as well. These living conditions can cause them to succumb to their health related issue the same as Covid, yet they won't know the cause and the diagnosis will be regarded as a death not worth placing blame for the how.

[jingle.boy]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

[Stadler]

I agree that a test is fine, but I don't like the cost being put on employees. That burden should fall to the employers (who should then be enabled to give uncooperative employees the axe).
The only other thing I would like is to see the hard criteria on when it ends. And that's my biggest critique of the newest guidance, as I see it. There's no clarity or solid footing around when the measures (even the currently existing ones) become active and when they become unnecessary. That's not to say that data isn't driving the decision making; but if it is, I'm just not seeing the where and how.

Do you know how much that would cost...And these businesses don't want to lose people that are good at what they do. It's not as easy for the smaller businesses. The issue is dividing the line for the smaller business while leveling up the big businesses as they have no problem paying for these tests, and can afford to lose several workers.

This has left them with a dilemma to deal with now...Layoff workers and have to go out and search for replacements? Cut down in size, to be below the 100 employee threshold?

These smaller businesses do not like this mandate because it's causing more unnecessary stress for the companies that are barely making it through Covid-19 as it is.

I don't know how much it would cost, but I also don't really care.
The employee should not have to pay just as they should not have to pay for any other mandatory testing or PPE.

But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license!  We do this all the time! 

(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)

[cramx3]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important. 

[Ben_Jamin]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated. You stay home until the next booster shot is available if you're that worried.

I know for sure, there will be people who will not take the booster shots.

[Chino]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

[cramx3]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 unvaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count it low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effect, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

I agree.  Personally, I'm not scared of being around an unvaccinated person, but the bolded statement is just not true generally and scientifically.

In regards to Ben's comment about just staying home.  If you are that worried, yes, you should just stay home.  But IMO, that is no way to live life.  Sadly, for some, they may not have an option.  Having a medical reason to not get vaxxed or having more than 1 comorbidity even vaccinated and you still have potential for death or severe illness.  That's the whole point of getting everyone who is eligible to be vaxxed, to help those who can't.

In other news, I got this comment on my Unleash the Archers video on youtube

its so cool seeing these type of super spreader shows still going on during a pandemic in the united states !!! knowing that the you can still get covid even if you have the vaccine makes it so much more fun to go to shows like this so that the spread can keep happening and never stop ! thanks unleash , aether realm and seven kingdoms for doing your part to keep the pandemic alive and well !

I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause.  We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid.  I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future.  We need to do our best to continue with our lives.  If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in.  I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated. 

[Grappler]

I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause.  We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid.  I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future.  We need to do our best to continue with our lives.  If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in.  I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated.

I went to see Last in Line in August and felt pretty comfortable being vaccinated and unmasked.  For me, it's about the amount of people I'll be around in a close contact, and also learning to trust that sick people will do the right thing and stay home, and trut that the vaccine will do its job.  The concert was seated and "socially distanced."  I had 3-5 people around me, and really only had to worry about the one person that was next to me.  I felt that my risk of being around someone covid-positive was relatively low at that concert.   Walking through the venue was the same as walking through a restaurant - you would walk past people, but not necessarily be up in their face for an extended period of time.

Other times, like when I'm on the train and may have someone sitting within 3-6 feet of me, of course, I'll wear a mask (it is still federally mandated for public transportation).  I don't want to bring covid home to my kids, but I also don't want to stay home ALL the time and hide.

My wife is still really unnerved being in a group of people or a crowd indoors.

[jingle.boy]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

No argument here.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?

Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...

See it does work in preventing death.

So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...

As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.

[Chino]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?

Yes.

Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...

Cool.

See it does work in preventing death.

Yeah, I said that.

So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...

Both.

As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.

Still doesn't make what you said not complete bullshit.

[Adami]

By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

You don't know if it's doing it's thing on you or not. Do you care if it does work or not?

Yes.

Because a lot of people do care whether it works or not and do care about not putting anything in their body if it's not going to work...

Cool.

See it does work in preventing death.

Yeah, I said that.

So what is the end goal here...death prevention or case prevention...

Both.

As Cram said with the Israel...Even though they're vaccinated case numbers are still up.

Still doesn't make what you said not complete bullshit.

If you're prevented from death, and if your relatives and all you care about are vaccinated. Why should you worry about anyone else being vaccinated or not?

I don't care what that other person does nor do I rely on that other. I do not depend on that other to prevent me from dying. I do not rely on that other to do what is considered righteous.

I do not trust that other, as people are not all good people. There are bad people, witches, those whom wish you harm and go out of their way to make you suffer and harm you. They exist in the world and why should I expect them to suddenly care and give a crap about morality and ethics.

So I do what I know I good and beneficial for me and those I care about.

That's all a man can do. And expecting the world to suddenly care is just a pipe dream and an optimistic view of people and reality.

[cramx3]

By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.

I said it, so I'll explain, they are simply the most vaccinated and have the most data pertaining to pfizer than any other country of size.  They are also already doing boosters.  Their cases levels are at an all time high now.  I believe you and my wording may not be precise, but that's why I said it. 

[Adami]

By the way, when someone says "Israel is vaccinated" that is pretty off. They have a VERY sizeable population that is anti-vaxx. I just read how hundreds of orthodox people who make a yearly pilgrimage to Europe came back with forged vaccination forms and forged negative test results. All of this stuff is keeping their cases up. And a huge majority of their cases are of the unvaccinated.

I said it, so I'll explain, they are simply the most vaccinated and have the most data pertaining to pfizer than any other country of size.  They are also already doing boosters.  Their cases levels are at an all time high now.  I believe you and my wording may not be precise, but that's why I said it.

Totally. I am confident you know what you're talking about. I just didn't want the short-hand to cause confusion. All good.

[Stadler]

I would assume the thinking is that the vaccinated will no longer be getting tested regularly and will probably not be getting tested at all unless they seek medical care for any illnesses they have which keep them home IF testing is then done at the direction of their healthcare provider as part of the diagnosis. And since breakthrough cases should be relatively rare with serious cases being even more rare, it's unlikely that this will happen unless there is some mass testing performed among the vaccinated.

I know nothing, but this is what I see as another step away from the COVID ledge. Cases will dwindle as the vaccine numbers increase because, and even if the virus is still there, it will have no greater impact on daily life than any of the other illnesses that circulate around, at least among the vaccinated. And furthermore, even if the virus is still out there, an even greater number of cases will go on unreported until we arrive at the point when precautions are no longer seen as necessary.   

Anyway, those are just my two cents - just a layman's read on what's going on...
I may be totally off. I don't think COVID will be eradicated anytime soon, but with mass vaccinations and (hopefully) improved treatments, I could see us moving into some pattern like the above - where the virus plays a much less immediate role in daily life.

Don't hold your breath.  Canada is approaching about 68% of TOTAL population fully vax'd and 77.5% of 12+ population fully vax'd.  We still have fairly significant cases, hospitalization, and spread - and that's not accounting for what's going to start in a couple of weeks when 'back-to-school' hits the 3-week mark.  Lots of schools and boards are already seeing meaningful outbreaks.

Some health experts here are thinking the fabled 'herd immunity' number is more like 90%, and it's literally impossible to get there until under 12-yrs can get vax approval.

Considering how vaxxed Isreal is and is still struggling with cases, I have no confidence we will ever reach herd immunity.  Covid is here to stay.  Even fauci stopped talking about herd immunity and talks about controlling the virus via higher vaccination rates.  That seems more likely these days, that we can level off the deaths but illness will be here forever it seems.  And because the vaccines do a great job preventing death, getting vaxxed is still incredibly important.

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

Look, I agree with you nominally, but that line is dangerous, because IT isn't entirely true as well.  Or at least not as clear and certain as it seems.   Let's say the number of "unprotected vaccinated" is 15%.  Then in your room, you have the 15 people you COULD POSSIBLY get it from, and I'm sure we could calculate the number of probably "positives".   Some portion of those are going to be unknowns, given that the vaccinated are more likely to be a-symptomatic.  But not all 100 unvaccinated are potential carriers.   Given that there are un-vaccinated people that just don't get sick, plus those who WERE sick and now have natural immunity, and the fact that the virus hits harder in the un-vaccinated than the vaccinated (thus those people are less likely to be in that 100 sample number by virtue that they are dying or dead), and I'm not convinced that it's that cut and dry.

Again, I nominally agree with your position, I'm just saying we have to be careful with the fallacy of "common sense" here.

[Stadler]

I feel like we can't just let the world continue to be on pause.  We did that last year, it may have helped, but it didn't stop covid.  I don't believe we will ever stop covid or certainly not in the near future.  We need to do our best to continue with our lives.  If someone is just scared, they can stay home but don't shame the others who are vaccinated, following the rules, and trying their best to live their lives (or make a living for the bands). Also, that event was proof of vaccination only to get in.  I really would hope no one was there with symptoms, but generally, it's unlikely it will become a super spreader event if everyone is vaccinated.

I went to see Last in Line in August and felt pretty comfortable being vaccinated and unmasked.  For me, it's about the amount of people I'll be around in a close contact, and also learning to trust that sick people will do the right thing and stay home, and trut that the vaccine will do its job.  The concert was seated and "socially distanced."  I had 3-5 people around me, and really only had to worry about the one person that was next to me.  I felt that my risk of being around someone covid-positive was relatively low at that concert.   Walking through the venue was the same as walking through a restaurant - you would walk past people, but not necessarily be up in their face for an extended period of time.

Other times, like when I'm on the train and may have someone sitting within 3-6 feet of me, of course, I'll wear a mask (it is still federally mandated for public transportation).  I don't want to bring covid home to my kids, but I also don't want to stay home ALL the time and hide.

My wife is still really unnerved being in a group of people or a crowd indoors.

I was so close, when he stopped playing the last song, he just reached out and handed me his metal pick.  It was almost uncomfortably close, since the stage was so low (only about six inches above the floor).  At one point, Andrew was actually BEHIND me:

[Grappler]

That's awesome.  I was in the first row of seats, behind two rows of 4-person round tables, maybe 15-20 feet from the stage.  Same deal - the stage was about six inches higher than the tables.  Andrew Freeman heckled the guy that sat directly in front of him and spent the entire show texting, saying "you paid for the table, you get a little bit of hassling." 

Two people wore masks during the show, everyone else was maskless.  I was torn on guessing if they're vaccinated - most people were 40-50+, so you would think that they would be vaccinated.  But I live in a redder county where the suburban, middle-aged individuals tend to be republican and/or anti-mask.  Either way, i trusted my vaccine to do its job and I'm learning to trust people to do the right thing and not come out if they're sick or have been exposed to covid.

[El Barto]

This thing has been going on in earnest for 18 months or so. Not once have I seen somebody be obnoxious about masks or vaccinations down here IRL. Plenty of them on instaface, or whatever, but in person everybody minds their own damn business. I was in California for less than 8 hours before somebody walked by the HoB and yelled "Don't forget your masks you fucking idiots!" I've said it before, but for all of the lunacy of our politics, Texans are still among the most civilized people in this country. The idea of randomly insulting people because of their beliefs just doesn't register here.

California is doing alright with the masks. At least SoCal, and taking into account the self-absorbed assholes that make up a sizeable chunk of the population. In both Texas and Cali it largely seemed to be voluntary, but people are volunteering to wear them at a greater clip out there. There are places down here where you really feel out of place wearing a mask. Definitely not the case in SoCal, and the people who really should be wearing them (waiters, clerks, etc.) so so without fail. Even outdoor places you're seeing 50/50 or so, where in Texas it's more like 15/85.

[cramx3]

When I was in LA last month, I was a bit surprised about how many were wearing the masks just outside by themselves.  I found it pretty apparent that people were fine to wear them optionally.

In NJ, I've never experienced in person anti-masking or anything like that.  Just see it on the webz.  But I will admit, it was nice to be back home in NJ where there is no mask mandate.  Plenty of people still optionally wear them, that's cool, I've got no problem wiht that.  But I like having the option and therefore I don't wear it if I don't have to. 

[Stadler]

When I was in LA last month, I was a bit surprised about how many were wearing the masks just outside by themselves.  I found it pretty apparent that people were fine to wear them optionally.

In NJ, I've never experienced in person anti-masking or anything like that.  Just see it on the webz.  But I will admit, it was nice to be back home in NJ where there is no mask mandate.  Plenty of people still optionally wear them, that's cool, I've got no problem wiht that.  But I like having the option and therefore I don't wear it if I don't have to.

That's kind of the same way up here in Connecticut.   I usually do wear a mask, except some places like Home Depot where I can social distance, or the Uconn Football game where everything was outside.

I honestly haven't seen even one instance of mask bullying up here.

[Skeever]

But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license!  We do this all the time! 

(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)

I won't try and argue the principle with you - because I probably can't. But I know how unpopular this mandate is going to be with a large portion of the workplace who, for whatever reason, just don't want to get the vaccine. And as much as I don't like it, I feel we owe these people some kind of consideration even though they've refuse to get with the program - after all, they've been lied to and led to believe in unchecked falsehoods for so long by so much of their own leadership.

Giving the unvaccinated a free test until they get with the program is no different to me than offering food stamps or some other form of welfare to those who refuse to work.
The unvaccinated have not chosen to be a social burden, they've just been brainwashed, and punishing them for it will only get so far. Punishing them for it is no different than taking away benefits from the poor or fining people for BS violations. Instead, I'd like to see them more gently brought up to speed...

 

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.

[Stadler]

Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.

That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated.  If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people.  That would make the global vaccination rate...  <50%. 

I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works.  But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them.  We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T.  Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math). 

Does it matter where the variant comes from?  Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.

My state is at 75% roughly.  Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%. 


* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.

[Ben_Jamin]

But I pay for my driver's license! And my marriage license!  We do this all the time! 

(I'm kidding with you, personally, Skeever, but also making a larger point that has nothing to do with your post specifically.)

I won't try and argue the principle with you - because I probably can't. But I know how unpopular this mandate is going to be with a large portion of the workplace who, for whatever reason, just don't want to get the vaccine. And as much as I don't like it, I feel we owe these people some kind of consideration even though they've refuse to get with the program - after all, they've been lied to and led to believe in unchecked falsehoods for so long by so much of their own leadership.

Giving the unvaccinated a free test until they get with the program is no different to me than offering food stamps or some other form of welfare to those who refuse to work.
The unvaccinated have not chosen to be a social burden, they've just been brainwashed, and punishing them for it will only get so far. Punishing them for it is no different than taking away benefits from the poor or fining people for BS violations. Instead, I'd like to see them more gently brought up to speed...

 

And if you're vaccinated. You have no reason to worry about the non vaccinated.

This is demonstrably false, and frankly I'm sick of seeing this line of bullshit being repeated. The vaccine is not 100% effective, and for those who it is not effective, their risk is amplified by the non-vaccinated. If you're vaccinated and one of the 5%-15% that don't receive proper protection from it, where will you be safer? In a small room with 100 vaccinated individuals or in a room with 100 non-vaccinated individuals? It's basic math, and it's not debatable. Vaccinated people have still died (yeah, I know the count is low), and those who don't die can still have lifelong effects, so to say vaccinated people "have NO reason to worry" is wrong and irresponsible. I don't know if the vaccine is doing it's thing on me or not. I'll tell you what though, I'm not itching to get back to my unvaccinated co-workers in our open office floor plan to find out.

Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.

Yup. That's why vaccines are not a miracle drug, and there will never be a miracle drug. As long as we humans become ill by bacteria and infectious diseases then all we as humans can do is better our own health in whatever way we can to not become susceptible to them in the long-term. A vaccine is just a quick fix, like a band-aid, to mend the problem and lessen the severity of the wound, well it's more like a tourniquet than a band-aid.

What is proven to actually be causes of susceptibility. I would rather not be obese, not have heart disease, and not have these easily revers-able underlying health conditions.

Just think, if the population were not over-weight, didn't have high blood pressure, and hardly any heart issues, would this really have been an issue as most people would've had mild cases due to not having these underlying conditions that are making these case numbers rise.

You have to ask, why were people getting severe side effects of covid-19, and as everyone is different and not the same, everyone has their own health reasons why they are susceptible to the severe side effects of covid-19. If you know your health and where it stands, you should understand the risks involved with you and the people you care about. That is, if the others do tell you of an underlying health condition. Which is why I used Norm MacDonald as an example of someone still going through life without worry and no one even knew about his condition to sympathize about his health and his battle with Cancer.


I would like to ask those with underlying conditions and those whom are unable to take the vaccine how they feel about asking others to take action and work their lives around them, so they can live and thrive? Because we won't know how they feel and if our supposed feelings of sympathy for the sick are actually worth it if they do not care at all, and will go out regardless and end up getting in an accident because death decided to play the claw game and picked that person to die this way.

It's why Death, is a very important topic when discussing morality and ethics and whether those that are not taking a vaccine are actually deplorable and heartless people, and people that just do not care for anyone but themselves, such soulless bastards the unvaccinated are.

Which amazes me at the amount of hate people have for one another.

[Ben_Jamin]

Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.

That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated.  If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people.  That would make the global vaccination rate...  <50%. 

I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works.  But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them.  We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T.  Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math). 

Does it matter where the variant comes from?  Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.

My state is at 75% roughly.  Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%. 


* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.

And who is to say those same people are willing to take the booster shots.

[Skeever]

Ben-Jamin's thinking is of course certifiably fallacious.
Vaccines only work the way they're supposed to when most of the population is inoculated.
BTW, the willfully unvaccinated are currently the ones who will be responsible for cooking up the next several variants. And that will be ALL of our problem.

That's a world problem, not a U.S. problem, though, in the sense that the globe is <50% vaccinated.  If half the U.S. population that hasn't received two shots gets vaccinated, that's roughly 150* million people.  That would make the global vaccination rate...  <50%. 

I'm not suggesting that we not do it, that's not how it works.  But I am suggesting there's an inordinate weight being placed on those that aren't doing what WE want them to locally, and not enough focus on the fact that the PLANET isn't anywhere CLOSE to achieving the benefits of the vaccine even with them.  We've also not approved the use for children under 12 yet; that's another 50 million people that CAN'T move the needle, as opposed to WON'T.  Even if EVERY vaccine-hesitant person got vaccinated, we're still arguably not at herd immunity (that would put us just south of 85% by my math). 

Does it matter where the variant comes from?  Delta was not a U.S.-origin variant if memory serves.

My state is at 75% roughly.  Our positivity ping-pongs between about 2.5% to about 4%. 


* 30 million have received ONE shot just haven't received the second dose.

I have a hard time believing it should be as hard to keep it outside customs but the political tolerance might be similar to that of inoculating the workforce. I was just having coffee with a friend from Asia a few days ago and when I asked her why she came to America when we’re currently on fire with the delta she simply responded “you guys are the only ones crazy enough to let me in”.

[darkshade]

Are there videos out there that show packed hospitals across the US? There weren't any such videos out there in 2020, as far as I know, and last I checked, the pandemic was worse then, what with more deaths. In NYC, where covid was real bad, a makeshift hospital created for hospital overflow wasn't even used for extra covid patients, because it wasn't needed. In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.

[darkshade]

I'm sure dehumanizing 'the unvaccinated' and blaming them for 'variants' spreading around the world, will work out great!
History doesn't always repeat itself, but it tends to rhyme pretty well.

[Luoto]

In other countries, like Brazil, Philippines, for example, people filmed empty hospitals where their news outlets reported they were filled to the brim.

Some people tried to do this in the UK when someone noticed the local hospitals were actually trying to deal with it in an organized way. I personally don't think much about such "news" trying to discredit generally reliable sources of information.

Meanwhile in Bergamo, Italy, army vehicles had to be dispatched to transport corpses because of how many people died back in the spring of 2020.

[darkshade]

Dr. Robert Malone, inventor of mRNA vaccine technology, discusses Covid, the vaccines, and other useful information surrounding treatment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwPKnOhJRYg

[jingle.boy]

JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...

A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.

Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.

The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.

[lonestar]

JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...

A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.

Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.

The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.

You mean he poste questionable information 

[hefdaddy42]

JFC... the first google search for Dr. Robert Malone...

A man by the name of Dr. Robert Malone has recently found fame through alternative media outlets, claiming to be the RNA vaccine inventor and spouting out a mishmash of misleading claims.

Malone is a scientist. In 1989, he co-wrote a paper titled "Cationic liposome-mediated RNA transfection." While his work on RNA transfection might have been important, his claim to be the “inventor” of RNA vaccines is shaky, to say the least.

The first page is littered with articles (from reputable sources) debunking his claims.

I'm shocked!