Author Topic: How Will We Be Judged?  (Read 4586 times)

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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2021, 06:00:52 PM »
contrarianism for the sake of contrarianism is like pissing into the wind and saying you're taking a shower

Wow I love this quote.
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Offline Dream Team

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2021, 07:09:16 PM »
They may wonder why it was legal for people to make billions of dollars selling a product they know killed people by the millions (tobacco/cigarettes).

Online MirrorMask

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2021, 12:59:14 AM »
They may wonder why it was legal for people to make billions of dollars selling a product they know killed people by the millions (tobacco/cigarettes).

Eh, not so sure about this. Ok, we all know that smoking is bad and unhealthy, and is being banned in indoor places and many other ones, but I still don't see any kind of stigma. People look down (thankfully, I might add) on racist and homophobic people, but smoking is still "cool". Employees ask for a quick cigarette breaks, at parties people take their coat and go outside smoking, kids still start to smoke etc.... smoking is absolutely accepted, even if just tolerated, and it won't go away anytime soon.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2021, 04:56:48 AM »
They may wonder why it was legal for people to make billions of dollars selling a product they know killed people by the millions (tobacco/cigarettes).

Eh, not so sure about this. Ok, we all know that smoking is bad and unhealthy, and is being banned in indoor places and many other ones, but I still don't see any kind of stigma. People look down (thankfully, I might add) on racist and homophobic people, but smoking is still "cool". Employees ask for a quick cigarette breaks, at parties people take their coat and go outside smoking, kids still start to smoke etc.... smoking is absolutely accepted, even if just tolerated, and it won't go away anytime soon.

Maybe in Europe, but I don't think many people see smoking as "cool" in North America (or maybe just Canada).
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Online MirrorMask

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2021, 05:07:27 AM »
Genuine question then, how's the attitude there towards smokers? I was never in a social situation when someone was looked down or chastized for wanting to smoke. Generally smoking people are also respectful, so they will stay away from smoking, asking permission to do it in your car, make sure the smoke doesn't blow in your face and apologize if it happens by accident and the likes, so the point is not that smoking people are assholes, they do take their precautions to not inconvenience you. But I don't remember having ever been in a situation where people announcing they go outside to smoke is sighed upon with a look of contempt on the face, or people are politely called out on it, never seen or heard about a boss saying "well, maybe if you didn't take up the bad habit of smoking, you wouldn't need to have a cigarette break, frankly I don't see why a smoker deserves an additional break and a non-smoker doesn't".

I mean, it's a live and let live situation - smokers try to not inconvenience other people, and non smokers don't chastise them for smoking or don't bring up "hey, how about quitting?". I never got the perception that smokers feel ashamed of their habit and try to do it in "secret" for the fear of being looked the way you would look at a meth addict.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2021, 05:18:52 AM »
Genuine question then, how's the attitude there towards smokers? I was never in a social situation when someone was looked down or chastized for wanting to smoke. Generally smoking people are also respectful, so they will stay away from smoking, asking permission to do it in your car, make sure the smoke doesn't blow in your face and apologize if it happens by accident and the likes, so the point is not that smoking people are assholes, they do take their precautions to not inconvenience you. But I don't remember having ever been in a situation where people announcing they go outside to smoke is sighed upon with a look of contempt on the face, or people are politely called out on it, never seen or heard about a boss saying "well, maybe if you didn't take up the bad habit of smoking, you wouldn't need to have a cigarette break, frankly I don't see why a smoker deserves an additional break and a non-smoker doesn't".

I mean, it's a live and let live situation - smokers try to not inconvenience other people, and non smokers don't chastise them for smoking or don't bring up "hey, how about quitting?". I never got the perception that smokers feel ashamed of their habit and try to do it in "secret" for the fear of being looked the way you would look at a meth addict.

I honestly only know one person (my contractor) that smokes.  Personally, I don't think of smokers with contempt or would ever shame them, but more of a sadness - they know they are investing their money towards something that is extremely detrimental to their health.  Frankly, why anyone starts smoking nowadays (or even 10-20 years ago) is beyond my comprehension.  Don't get me wrong, I smoked in my teenage years cuz I thought it was cool and badass, but I quit when I was 20.
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Online MirrorMask

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2021, 05:44:42 AM »
Frankly, why anyone starts smoking nowadays (or even 10-20 years ago) is beyond my comprehension

Beats me as well. You're being taught it's bad. You notice it's expensive. You notice how it's forbidden everywhere, you see people in the middle of winter getting their coats and go outside to smoke and freeze in the process. Why? is peer pressure still that strong among young kids? do they see other kids smoking and think it's cool and they're dared to try it? they have parents who smoke and think that if dad and mom do it, it can't be that bad?
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Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2021, 09:11:49 AM »
Frankly, why anyone starts smoking nowadays (or even 10-20 years ago) is beyond my comprehension

Beats me as well. You're being taught it's bad. You notice it's expensive. You notice how it's forbidden everywhere, you see people in the middle of winter getting their coats and go outside to smoke and freeze in the process. Why? is peer pressure still that strong among young kids? do they see other kids smoking and think it's cool and they're dared to try it? they have parents who smoke and think that if dad and mom do it, it can't be that bad?

I personally think it’s the anti-smoking commercials which I feel do more harm than good. Those tv ads are super preachy and talk down to their audience, and kids don’t like being made to feel like they’re stupid by adults nor do they like being made to feel like they don’t have a choice in life, so if someone makes them feel inferior while telling them what to do, they’ve very likely to do the opposite.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2021, 09:13:18 AM »
Genuine question then, how's the attitude there towards smokers? I was never in a social situation when someone was looked down or chastized for wanting to smoke. Generally smoking people are also respectful, so they will stay away from smoking, asking permission to do it in your car, make sure the smoke doesn't blow in your face and apologize if it happens by accident and the likes, so the point is not that smoking people are assholes, they do take their precautions to not inconvenience you. But I don't remember having ever been in a situation where people announcing they go outside to smoke is sighed upon with a look of contempt on the face, or people are politely called out on it, never seen or heard about a boss saying "well, maybe if you didn't take up the bad habit of smoking, you wouldn't need to have a cigarette break, frankly I don't see why a smoker deserves an additional break and a non-smoker doesn't".

I mean, it's a live and let live situation - smokers try to not inconvenience other people, and non smokers don't chastise them for smoking or don't bring up "hey, how about quitting?". I never got the perception that smokers feel ashamed of their habit and try to do it in "secret" for the fear of being looked the way you would look at a meth addict.


There's Casinos that allow indoor smoking and nobody complains about this. But also, they're highly ventilated and are buildings that allow more open space. The smoke still lingers as is there, but people don't complain, as long as they're not smoking in the buffet or restaurant. And that's not even including the pretty laughable Non-Smoking sections that are not enclosed.


But, not all casinos are the same, structure wise. But I do find it interesting how they can get away with indoor smoking because of Ventilation and the amount of space that is Open and more Air can pass through, so the smoke wont be collecting.

Doesn't stop the person from smoking right next to you, which is where I have seen some people wear masks, while they have an oxygen tank playing the machine, sitting next to someone smoking and the air conditioner blows the smoke from the cig right by their face... :biggrin:


Frankly, why anyone starts smoking nowadays (or even 10-20 years ago) is beyond my comprehension

Beats me as well. You're being taught it's bad. You notice it's expensive. You notice how it's forbidden everywhere, you see people in the middle of winter getting their coats and go outside to smoke and freeze in the process. Why? is peer pressure still that strong among young kids? do they see other kids smoking and think it's cool and they're dared to try it? they have parents who smoke and think that if dad and mom do it, it can't be that bad?

I see it because people can and will do stuff regardless of the consequences and risks involved.

Think about this too, what did they invent that is now a concern because those "Cool kids" whom used to smoke cigs, now turned to the new trend and invention....E-cigs, which were marketed the exact same way Cigarettes were, they're a "less risky" alternative to cigarette smoke, and have nice tasty flavors, and your blowing vapor not smoke into the atmosphere.

The only way to smoke, before the commercialization and mass production of cigarettes, was to roll your own. It's easy to figure out how more people started to smoke due to the manufacturing of cigarettes, without having to grow your own tobacco. It became convenient to now sit back and enjoy a relaxing afternoon with your moonshine and the Marlboro brand cigarette...Kool...

I tried and do not like Vape pens, it's not the same feeling you get from the process that involves smoke entering your lungs, some people actually like that feeling from smoking, and don't enjoy any other form of using tobacco or any product that requires smoking, like Cannabis. CBD Cannabis, which doesn't have THC and thus doesn't get you high, is still smoked from the flower.

My main issue with cigarettes isn't the tobacco or cigarette itself. It's the chemicals they put into these products, to either make them last longer, have more flavor, to get you addicted so you buy more cigarettes. And these chemicals are what is bad for the atmosphere. They put these chemicals in the paper itself, and also on the tobacco. Sometimes I don't even think that it's tobacco in the cigarette anymore, and it's highly synthetic, and laced, with like one flake of real tobacco. I emptied one out to use for a joint, and examined the tobacco and it didn't look like Tobacco, it looked like color-dyed paper.


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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2021, 09:16:37 AM »
They may wonder why it was legal for people to make billions of dollars selling a product they know killed people by the millions (tobacco/cigarettes).

Insert any product that depleted our Earth, and its resources which causes problems within the communities they get them from. How these companies did all these things to the Earth and Humans, all for a product that is more convenient and easy for the masses to live in their comfort.

I think people will judge this more in the future, as they begin to experience the consequences to our decisions. Which we are doing now to our elders' and the old ones before us decisions, we are living their consequences.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2021, 09:47:58 AM »
Hubris?   :rollin


So it's hubris to think I'm on the right side of history for being against institutional racism, homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia, xenophobia, police brutality and poverty

If that's hubris, you can call be Barry Hubris Thompson from now on.

Anything else is you projecting your shit onto me.  I speak for myself, you don't speak for me.


No, and please do not put words in my mouth.   The hubris is the presumption of your place in the historical record, period.  It matters not what your actual stance on the issues is or is not.  I'm generally against institutional racism, homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia, xenophobia, police brutality and poverty, too (though we might disagree on the details), but I in no way shape or form believe I can even KNOW I'm on the right side of history (not least of which because it hasn't happened yet), let alone actually think I'm there. 

Generally?  Are you implying there are/can be circumstances where you are not against any of these things?

This conversation is now the shining example of the point I'm trying to make all along.  I've been pretty crystal clear about my views on this (and it's WHACK that I even have to say this):  I'm against racism.  I think it's wrong scientifically, morally, intellectually, practically, economically.  But that's not to say that I agree with every RESPONSE to racism, and that's not license to ignore all the other tenets of our society.  Being of a certain mind on racism - or anything, for that matter - doesn't give any of us some automatic exalted position in the universe.  I'm not even sure what "being on the right side of history" means, and even if it did, living here, in a eye-blink of time compared to REAL history, I don't feel it's my place to make that call. I'm going to keep my head down, make the best decisions I can make with the (limited) information I have, and tend my own garden.   

To your question specifically, Jingle, I wouldn't say that there's a situation that I wouldn't be "against" those things.  But being of a certain mind on racism doesn't allow us to trample other people's rights, for example.  It doesn't mean I have to support all means and measures taken in response to racism. It doesn't mean I have to assume that everything IS racist until proven otherwise.   There's a LOT that follows from that where the line of truth and absolutism veers off pretty quickly, and too often today - like in this thread - that thread is blurred irreparably.  I say this gently, but you even asking the question tells me you're doing it right now. 

There are a lot of people that are pretty darn vocal in the COVID thread about "SCIENCE!", some going so far as to mock others for not following "science" (in the form of CDC guidance).  Yet, when I present science here that contrasts with the accepted, and unsubstantiated, knee jerk reaction to racism - the reaction that really just seems to serve to announce to the world one's bona fides on the subject - I'm metaphorically "pissing on myself" as a contrarian. 

Life isn't a one-question test: "where do you fall on racism?" with everything else taking a back seat.  I feel like the REACTION to racism is as important as the underlying belief, and that's where the rubber meets the road.  That's where I am in this conversation,  not the simplistic reduction of "is racism wrong?".  It's a fair assumption that rounding up all racists - perceived or actual - and putting a bullet in their heads will put you on the WRONG side of history just as fast as the initial belief on racism.  No, no one suggested that, and I'm not saying they did, so understand the allegory.  But we need not go so far to the extreme; there are people - here and elsewhere - that would absolutely deny racists - perceived or actual - other rights preserved for them under the Constitution.   Freedom of speech, freedom of liberty, freedom to vote.   Anyone up for the idea that racism ought to be a crime?  I know there are.  And yet, like the bullet to the head, there's no indication that these measures serve to REDUCE the amount of racism.

I want to KNOW who the racists are.  I don't want to bully them into quiet submission, until the pressure builds, the moment comes and the dam breaks and we get riots and death.  I want to KNOW who they are so we can educate, we can integrate, we can remove those environmental factors that led them to that path to begin with.  They may be morally lacking under the current standards of our society, but like anyone else that hasn't been perfect and made all the right decisions in life, I don't want to write these people off.  I want them to see the light, so that they can teach their kids - and their kids' kids - a better way.    The prevailing wisdom is now that racism is learned behavior (one of the links I gave talked about how historical hunter/gatherer societies didn't have a lot of racism/bigotry, even amongst competing societal units); what can be learned can be unlearned.   Anyone slap their kid to get them to act straight?  Call them dumb?  Marginalize them to the bedroom in order to teach them the right way to behave?  Of course not; not if they are a good, compassionate parent who cares about the results of their parenting.   So why - other than vengeance and this need to be "right" - do we do that when it comes to one of the most critical issues of our day?  I don't believe in the concept of "right side of history", but even if I did, just being "against" racism is just one brick in the wall. What are we doing to make sure that in pure numbers there are less racists tomorrow than today?  If the science is telling us something, and we reject that because it's "contrarian" or "doesn't punish enough" or "doesn't make sense to me" or any of a 100 rationalizations that people use every day to reject that which is right in front of them, how can that not factor in to one's place in the cosmos?   

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2021, 11:34:55 AM »
Life isn't a one-question test: "where do you fall on racism?" with everything else taking a back seat.  I feel like the REACTION to racism is as important as the underlying belief, and that's where the rubber meets the road.  That's where I am in this conversation,  not the simplistic reduction of "is racism wrong?".  It's a fair assumption that rounding up all racists - perceived or actual - and putting a bullet in their heads will put you on the WRONG side of history just as fast as the initial belief on racism.  No, no one suggested that, and I'm not saying they did, so understand the allegory. But we need not go so far to the extreme; there are people - here and elsewhere - that would absolutely deny racists - perceived or actual - other rights preserved for them under the Constitution.   Freedom of speech, freedom of liberty, freedom to vote.   Anyone up for the idea that racism ought to be a crime?  I know there are.  And yet, like the bullet to the head, there's no indication that these measures serve to REDUCE the amount of racism.

The bolded part says a lot that I agree with. People do, take things to the extreme, because their emotions are riling up their thoughts, and are putting those emotions into action, without sitting down, setting those emotions aside, and looking at these issues, not while in the mindset of Anger and Vengeance, but in a Calm and Happy state of mind.

Those people need to realize and understand, that those Racists are first and most importantly also Human, with the same human thoughts and feelings as them. And in our current governmental system we all abide by because we are born into it, we are all guaranteed these rights. Like it or not, you can't go and use the philosophy of "Do unto others, what has been done unto you."

The idea that is presented in the Constitution is a very great idea, and it's one that wasn't made by the "Founding Fathers". In fact, it's based off an already established system called "The Great Law of Peace" from the Haudenosaunee Confederacy. In reality, the Founding Fathers never discovered or came up with The Constitution. They just plagiarized another system, whitewashed it, and put their name on it. These are things that are not taught or said in the History Books. They're said and shown by the Tribes in the Haudenosaunee Confederacy and in some books by Historians.


I want to KNOW who the racists are.  I don't want to bully them into quiet submission, until the pressure builds, the moment comes and the dam breaks and we get riots and death.  I want to KNOW who they are so we can educate, we can integrate, we can remove those environmental factors that led them to that path to begin with.  They may be morally lacking under the current standards of our society, but like anyone else that hasn't been perfect and made all the right decisions in life, I don't want to write these people off.  I want them to see the light, so that they can teach their kids - and their kids' kids - a better way.    The prevailing wisdom is now that racism is learned behavior (one of the links I gave talked about how historical hunter/gatherer societies didn't have a lot of racism/bigotry, even amongst competing societal units); what can be learned can be unlearned.   Anyone slap their kid to get them to act straight?  Call them dumb?  Marginalize them to the bedroom in order to teach them the right way to behave?  Of course not; not if they are a good, compassionate parent who cares about the results of their parenting.   So why - other than vengeance and this need to be "right" - do we do that when it comes to one of the most critical issues of our day?  I don't believe in the concept of "right side of history", but even if I did, just being "against" racism is just one brick in the wall. What are we doing to make sure that in pure numbers there are less racists tomorrow than today?  If the science is telling us something, and we reject that because it's "contrarian" or "doesn't punish enough" or "doesn't make sense to me" or any of a 100 rationalizations that people use every day to reject that which is right in front of them, how can that not factor in to one's place in the cosmos?

Don't have the time to get into this part now, so I will type it up when I can. Good points made here as well.
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #47 on: May 10, 2021, 12:25:54 PM »
I don't have time to write 2600 word posts in every thread on the entire board so I'm out. Some of us work. 

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2021, 01:13:03 PM »
Hubris?   :rollin


So it's hubris to think I'm on the right side of history for being against institutional racism, homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia, xenophobia, police brutality and poverty

If that's hubris, you can call be Barry Hubris Thompson from now on.

Anything else is you projecting your shit onto me.  I speak for myself, you don't speak for me.


No, and please do not put words in my mouth.   The hubris is the presumption of your place in the historical record, period.  It matters not what your actual stance on the issues is or is not.  I'm generally against institutional racism, homophobia, transphobia, islamophobia, xenophobia, police brutality and poverty, too (though we might disagree on the details), but I in no way shape or form believe I can even KNOW I'm on the right side of history (not least of which because it hasn't happened yet), let alone actually think I'm there. 

Generally?  Are you implying there are/can be circumstances where you are not against any of these things?

This conversation is now the shining example of the point I'm trying to make all along.  I've been pretty crystal clear about my views on this (and it's WHACK that I even have to say this):  I'm against racism. 

Then don't say (type) things that dig yourself into a hole of questionability.  Your exact words ... "I'm generally against institutional racism".  Your use of the word "generally" is confounding.  I don't know what you're (gently) saying I'm doing... all I think I'm doing is trying to clarify what you're saying, with what you're meaning to say - because I don't for one second believe that you would be 'for' racism et al, but for someone who is so precise with his words, it seems to me you got a little sloppy in this instance.  Surely you don't take issue with me holding you to account for what you post here so there is no disconnect between what you say/type, and what you mean?

I don't take issue with the rest of your post, but I'll just say this ... your view of the world is not the *only* or *most right* view (nor is Barry's).  The views of others have just as much validity as yours - I think you're even saying as such - just in the opposite direction.  IE, you don't get to trample on Barry's rights and beliefs as to how he handles these topics.  You (Stadler) may not believe in the notion of "the right side of history"; others might.  Doesn't make either more or less right/wrong.  IMO, "the right side of history" is just a catchphrase to align with the morals/morality of what is generally viewed by the masses as acceptable.  That's just my interpretation of the phrase.

I don't have time to write 2600 word posts in every thread on the entire board so I'm out. Some of us work. 

Haha... took me a few hours to find the 20 minutes of spare time just to READ Stadler's post, let alone offer my thoughts.   :lol :lol
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Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2021, 01:34:54 PM »
Let's be clear, though.  I cited:


institutional racism
homophobia
transphobia
islamophobia
xenophobia
police brutality
poverty


As social behaviors and conditions that I think any rational person would have to agree are things that most generally decent people would stand against.  Nobody that I know or would want to be associated with stands FOR any of that stuff.  So why is it presumptuous to say I believe I'm on the right side of history in taking a stand against these things?


It's like I said, I see a LOT of contrarianism for the sake of contrarianism on this board and it's maddening. 


Sometimes a fucking cigar is just a cigar.  And sometimes being against the things on that list is just an expression of support and solidarity with the unfortunate folks who are subjected to such things, THAT'S IT.  It's a personal policy statement, not an indictment of everyone reading it.  And just because you have the time to come on here and repeat yourself with 4000 word post after 4000 word post doesn't mean you are the arbiter of all that's good and bad in the world.  For fuck's sake, who in their right mind thinks ANYTHING on that list above is OK or not a problem?  Is your name Vladimir Putin?  I didn't think so.  So why does it apparently pop someone's cork because I said I think I'm on the right side of history being against a list of serious societal problems like that?  Is my presence here a threat to someone's ego?  Let me help: I don't know about anyone else but I am absolutely sure that I am NOT the smartest person here.  Straight up.  And when I'm wrong about something I admit it.   




Offline jingle.boy

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2021, 01:38:40 PM »
If there was a Like button on the forum, I'd tap it right now.
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2021, 01:44:37 PM »
So would I, because Stadler's post was spot-on. :tup :tup

Offline Stadler

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2021, 02:39:16 PM »
There's no call to discuss my professional status (yes, I work too; I can also walk and chew gum at the same time), my self-worth, my ego, my decency, or my erudition.  If you don't like the word count, don't read it.  If you're so comfortable about your place in history, certainly nothing I'm going to say is going to impact that.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 02:55:47 PM by Stadler »

Offline Stadler

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2021, 03:13:45 PM »
Then don't say (type) things that dig yourself into a hole of questionability.  Your exact words ... "I'm generally against institutional racism".  Your use of the word "generally" is confounding.  I don't know what you're (gently) saying I'm doing... all I think I'm doing is trying to clarify what you're saying, with what you're meaning to say - because I don't for one second believe that you would be 'for' racism et al, but for someone who is so precise with his words, it seems to me you got a little sloppy in this instance.  Surely you don't take issue with me holding you to account for what you post here so there is no disconnect between what you say/type, and what you mean?

Or maybe YOU can read what I wrote in it's entirety instead of mocking me for a word count.  This shit is not bumper sticker stuff.  Yeah, I said "generally" and I stand by that.  "Generally", as in "in general terms; without regard to particulars or exceptions."  In today's society, you know full well it's not enough to just be against something.  "Silence is consent".  "If you're not with us, you're against us".  I'm against racism; I can't say that enough.  Does it mean that everything else takes a back seat to that?    No, and I've given examples to back that up.  I don't think people should be in jail because they do or say or think something that someone else unilaterally thinks is "racist".    The Constitution doesn't apply to "We the appropriately non-racist, non-transphobic, non-homophobic people". 

Quote
I don't take issue with the rest of your post, but I'll just say this ... your view of the world is not the *only* or *most right* view (nor is Barry's).  The views of others have just as much validity as yours - I think you're even saying as such - just in the opposite direction.  IE, you don't get to trample on Barry's rights and beliefs as to how he handles these topics.  You (Stadler) may not believe in the notion of "the right side of history"; others might.  Doesn't make either more or less right/wrong.  IMO, "the right side of history" is just a catchphrase to align with the morals/morality of what is generally viewed by the masses as acceptable.  That's just my interpretation of the phrase.

Find me even one post, anywhere on this forum, where I've ever said my view is the only view.  That is SUCH a fundamental misreading of EVERYTHING I stand for it's almost ludicrous.  My whole being is predicated on the idea that we can all decide for OURSELVES.   I'm not the one foisting my views on other people; Barry can - and most likely WILL - believe whatever he wants; I don't expect him to change because of what I'm saying.  Having said that, we owe it to ourselves to at least acknowledge those facts that disrupt our worldview.  This all started when I posted the links to the psychological articles that showed that racism was rooted in insecurity and isolation, and that marginalizing and rejecting those who hold racist views was likely counter-productive.   To some, even the idea of actually dealing with someone who is intolerant is abhorrent. I myself, here, have been accused of being a racist not because of overt racist views, but simply being too "tolerant" or understanding of those that haven't seen the light yet.  The very nature of "on the right side of history" is "us versus them".  There's no inclusion in there; there's no possibility of being "wrong" with that kind of statement.  If you want to believe you can decide the "righteousness" of the cosmos, have fucking at it, I'm not here to tell you otherwise.   I am, though, going to point out the ways that that line of thinking MIGHT BE contrary to the end goals we're nominally all trying to reach.

As I said above, there's room for everyone, even the deplorables, in my world.  I know first hand that the opposite isn't always the case.

Quote
I don't have time to write 2600 word posts in every thread on the entire board so I'm out. Some of us work. 

Haha... took me a few hours to find the 20 minutes of spare time just to READ Stadler's post, let alone offer my thoughts.   :lol :lol

Thanks.   Appreciate it. :tdwn

Offline Skeever

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2021, 04:17:55 PM »
The time commitment thing is why I had my rights to PR revoked. My job isn't super hard or anything but I do need to minimize the amount of distractions or else things can go south quick. I don't have time to give the other participants their just due, nor do I have time to participate. That said I can't help but notice all the PR-style threads showing up in general today, and it makes me wonder if things aren't getting a little incestuous inside the gated community, driving this need of the political side to branch out to the wider forum.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure all of our employers are spying on us at an unprecedented level, which is another reason to manage how much time I spend here, if any, at work. Somebody should start a thread about that.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 07:03:45 PM by Skeever »

Offline Harmony

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2021, 05:17:51 PM »
And this is why we can't have nice things in General Discussion  :'(



















Except sandwiches and BBQ  :lol
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #56 on: May 10, 2021, 07:23:25 PM »
There's no call to discuss my professional status (yes, I work too; I can also walk and chew gum at the same time), my self-worth, my ego, my decency, or my erudition.  If you don't like the word count, don't read it.  If you're so comfortable about your place in history, certainly nothing I'm going to say is going to impact that.

Exactly. I know we live in a world now where the average person wants posts to be like a tweet (280 characters or less!!), but a well thought out post that makes us all think, rather than a hit and run post that is all about absolutes and discourages critical thinking, should be encouraged here, not mocked or belittled.  You and El Barto are always good at those kinds of posts, IMO.  :hat

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #57 on: May 10, 2021, 07:32:33 PM »
I have literally never heard the word "erudition".
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline KevShmev

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2021, 08:52:00 PM »
I have literally never heard the word "erudition".

I'll admit I had to look that one up. :lol

Offline eric42434224

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2021, 10:20:22 PM »
There's no call to discuss my professional status (yes, I work too; I can also walk and chew gum at the same time), my self-worth, my ego, my decency, or my erudition.  If you don't like the word count, don't read it.  If you're so comfortable about your place in history, certainly nothing I'm going to say is going to impact that.

Exactly. I know we live in a world now where the average person wants posts to be like a tweet (280 characters or less!!), but a well thought out post that makes us all think, rather than a hit and run post that is all about absolutes and discourages critical thinking, should be encouraged here, not mocked or belittled.  You and El Barto are always good at those kinds of posts, IMO.  :hat

With all due respect, the length of a post does not reflect on, or determine how well that persons thought is expressed.  A well thought out post is one that not only makes us think, encourages critical thinking, etc.....but is also edited to remove fluff, and is concise.  If you already made the point, you don't need to pile on with flowery language, personal anecdotes, tangents, analogies, etc.  The point should be a surgical strike.....not a carpet bomb.
There is a tipping point where, regardless of the validity of the point being made, where you will lose your audience if you you can't keep it concise and on point.
That is especially important in this medium, as it can be extremely difficult to respond to a person on their points if the post you are responding to is like War & Peace LOL.  JMO.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 10:27:59 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Harmony

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2021, 10:30:04 PM »
Are we really judging how different people write posts on a thread asking 'How Will We Be Judged?'
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2021, 10:35:44 PM »
Are we really judging how different people write posts on a thread asking 'How Will We Be Judged?'

No, I do not think we are judging the person by their post length.  Expressing an opinion on how post length can affect a posts effectiveness is certainly a valid topic, and if done with respect, shouldn't be a problem.

EDIT:  Its like listening to THAT GUY, we all know that guy, who starts the story with "Long story short".  We all know that we eventually get annoyed, and lose interest in that rambling BS after a certain point.  Posts that are consistently much longer than they have to be will tend to have readers gloss over them more than others.  They are also much more difficult to respond to appropriately in a debate.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2021, 10:41:30 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #62 on: May 11, 2021, 02:55:23 AM »
Are we really judging how different people write posts on a thread asking 'How Will We Be Judged?'

Yes. THAT guy just used an analogy after critiquing another poster for doing the same.

Offline eric42434224

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2021, 03:50:40 AM »
Are we really judging how different people write posts on a thread asking 'How Will We Be Judged?'

Yes. THAT guy just used an analogy after critiquing another poster for doing the same.

Who specifically are you referring to?  Are you referencing me?

Just for the record, I did not critique anyone specifically, but spoke in generalities.
That is pretty clear as I took care not mentioning anyone's name as I truly don't care enough about this specific issue here in this particular forum.  I do think it is a mildly interesting topic, so I made a comment.....and my comment was short and concise.

BTW, are you the guy who got weirdly passive-aggressive with me last week?

EDIT:  Yup, you are that guy.  I have no clue who you are, and do not recall ever interacting with you.  Yet twice in the last week you seem to come at me.  Not sure why.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but if you have an issue with me that you would like to discuss, just give me a shout on PM, mkay?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 03:56:48 AM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

rumborak

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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2021, 04:22:11 AM »
Lest things go off the rails any further between two friends, I'll take it to PM (later this morning as I have a 3 calls first thing).
That's a word salad - and take it from me, I know word salad
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Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2021, 08:22:49 AM »
As most of you know, I'm pretty much a 'here for the music' guy—not because I don't have thoughts on other issues, but because I have a very finite amount of time (short and sweet is nice, but some ideas do require a level of eloquence that I just can't summon in a single sentence).

That being said, this thread actually inspired a conversation with my 12-year old last night.

I asked him, "Hey, how do you think 'my' generation will be judged by yours?"

And he said (paraphrasing), "I think we're going to be ashamed of the constant fighting, but appreciate the tolerance that some people were fighting for." (smart kid:)

He then wen't on to talk about slavery (he loves history), and how it was such a divisive issue in the immediate years following the Civil War, and how he can't even imagine why anyone would have to think twice about it. Like, he was genuinley dumbstruck at imagining how human beings could've thought that chaining hundreds of people to ship and sailing them across the Atlantic against their will was a 'debate.'

Sometimes, there is no debate. And sometimes, it takes a little hindsight for the majority to underderstand what only a few initially see.

Now, my kid wasn't just talking about racisim—he also mentioned LGBQT rights, and a load of other things. Compared to when I was 12, this kid (who goes to a very diverse school) is light years ahead of me...and I do consider myself to be a progressive person.

So...I don't know how we will be judged, but in the wake of last night's conversation, I do feel a sense of hope.

It's hard, when you have so many people justifying so many obviously messed up things, but I sincerely (hope) think that in a hundred years, these 'debates' will be rendered useless (just as a debate of slavery is useless), replaced by an understanding that there is only one obvious right answer. (like, slavery is wrong....not 'generally,' not 'sometimes,' not 'occasionally,' ....ALWAYS). Hopefully, someday soon, we can insert a whole mess of other words in there and everyone (well, almost everyone) will agree.


Re-reading what I wrote, I want to add the following disclaimer: This post is NOT meant as a dig at anyone in particular (especially you, Stadler...I get your point, and while I kinda cringed when I read it, you're a good man and I'm not going to hold your semantics against you).

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2021, 08:32:42 AM »
The problem is that sometimes the picture is not clear only until after decades, or centuries.

If social media were around during slavery, I am sure there would be people of "moderate" views who, while not being racist and not considering slaves sub-human, would advocate for the usefulness of slavery, maybe treating well and just their own slaves and never beating them or the likes. I don't believe that back then the world was divided between righteous people who saw the idiocy of slavery, and bad brute racist guys who would beat slaves for fun and revel in their suffering, there must have been some people who just went along with the times and considered slavery acceptable, while never going out of their way to mistreat slaves.

Now it's obvious that slavery is bad, that racial segregation is bad, that forbidding interracial marriage is silly. Who cares today about interracial marriage? no one. But it was outlawed not such a long time ago.

The point is that it takes A LOT for mankind to learn and to understand what's right and what's wrong. We talked about smoking before - Did it really take THAT LONG to figure out that smoking in closed spaces was wrong? that it was not normal to go out on an evening and come back home with clothes completely stinking of smoke? apparently yes.

The same is going to be with LGBQT right, there will come a time when nobody will care about one's sexual preference. But it will still take a loooong time.
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Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2021, 08:39:52 AM »
The problem is that sometimes the picture is not clear only until after decades, or centuries.

If social media were around during slavery, I am sure there would be people of "moderate" views who, while not being racist and not considering slaves sub-human, would advocate for the usefulness of slavery, maybe treating well and just their own slaves and never beating them or the likes. I don't believe that back then the world was divided between righteous people who saw the idiocy of slavery, and bad brute racist guys who would beat slaves for fun and revel in their suffering, there must have been some people who just went along with the times and considered slavery acceptable, while never going out of their way to mistreat slaves.

Now it's obvious that slavery is bad, that racial segregation is bad, that forbidding interracial marriage is silly. Who cares today about interracial marriage? no one. But it was outlawed not such a long time ago.

The point is that it takes A LOT for mankind to learn and to understand what's right and what's wrong. We talked about smoking before - Did it really take THAT LONG to figure out that smoking in closed spaces was wrong? that it was not normal to go out on an evening and come back home with clothes completely stinking of smoke? apparently yes.

The same is going to be with LGBQT right, there will come a time when nobody will care about one's sexual preference. But it will still take a loooong time.

Like I said, "but I sincerely (hope) think that in a hundred years, these 'debates' will be rendered useless (just as a debate of slavery is useless)"

Sure...it might take a looooong time, but that's how progress typically works—slow and steady...a little backsliding here and there, but ultimately, you (hopefully) wind up with a more tolerant, less hateful world.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #68 on: May 11, 2021, 08:42:42 AM »
Our descendants are going to rake us over the coals. We have more data and certainty at our fingertips than any other point in history, yet we do very little to mitigate certain disaster. We're going to be viewed as a bunch of selfish pricks.

Our descendants will be a much more dumbed down version of society because of all the selfish pricks having kids now and so on.  So yeah...

I really wish more people realised Idiocracy was in fact a comedy film, and not a documentary.

Yeah, it was a comedy about where our culture is headed.  The documentaries will come later... :rollin
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Offline Skeever

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Re: How Will We Be Judged?
« Reply #69 on: May 11, 2021, 02:53:29 PM »
As most of you know, I'm pretty much a 'here for the music' guy—not because I don't have thoughts on other issues, but because I have a very finite amount of time (short and sweet is nice, but some ideas do require a level of eloquence that I just can't summon in a single sentence).

That being said, this thread actually inspired a conversation with my 12-year old last night.

I asked him, "Hey, how do you think 'my' generation will be judged by yours?"

And he said (paraphrasing), "I think we're going to be ashamed of the constant fighting, but appreciate the tolerance that some people were fighting for." (smart kid:)

He then wen't on to talk about slavery (he loves history), and how it was such a divisive issue in the immediate years following the Civil War, and how he can't even imagine why anyone would have to think twice about it. Like, he was genuinley dumbstruck at imagining how human beings could've thought that chaining hundreds of people to ship and sailing them across the Atlantic against their will was a 'debate.'

Sometimes, there is no debate. And sometimes, it takes a little hindsight for the majority to underderstand what only a few initially see.

Now, my kid wasn't just talking about racisim—he also mentioned LGBQT rights, and a load of other things. Compared to when I was 12, this kid (who goes to a very diverse school) is light years ahead of me...and I do consider myself to be a progressive person.

So...I don't know how we will be judged, but in the wake of last night's conversation, I do feel a sense of hope.

It's hard, when you have so many people justifying so many obviously messed up things, but I sincerely (hope) think that in a hundred years, these 'debates' will be rendered useless (just as a debate of slavery is useless), replaced by an understanding that there is only one obvious right answer. (like, slavery is wrong....not 'generally,' not 'sometimes,' not 'occasionally,' ....ALWAYS). Hopefully, someday soon, we can insert a whole mess of other words in there and everyone (well, almost everyone) will agree.


Re-reading what I wrote, I want to add the following disclaimer: This post is NOT meant as a dig at anyone in particular (especially you, Stadler...I get your point, and while I kinda cringed when I read it, you're a good man and I'm not going to hold your semantics against you).

I love this post.

I've thought about this a lot, by the way, how much easier would this stuff be if we'd just let it be that way? I personally would be as supportive as I could if my son told me he was LGBTQ. Would I have questions? Sure. Would I want to make sure my son had all the information he needed to make sure he wasn't just confusing himself even more? Absolutely. But it would always stem from a place of love an acceptance. I have a cousin who has totally excepted his child's exploration of this stuff - entertaining the fact that his teenage child does not want to be called by female pronouns or associated with "girly" things anymore. You know what they do? They just support her, and they get along... just fine.

That's not to say there aren't real concerns. Support isn't enough, and sometimes supporting someone to do the wrong thing can be damaging. But it just struck me as amazing how much easier these LGBTQ conversations go when all the stakeholders in the conversation are coming from a place of genuine concern and support, rather than judgement. 

I get that it seems like this big controversial topic, but honestly? No. LGBTQ stuff is nothing new. The way we discuss it and talk about it is new. People have been doing all sorts of weird sex stuff since the beginning of time. And how do I know this? Because I am a student of history, but also because I come from a Catholic background and the Catholic Church has been warning about the (sic) "unprecedented rise in homosexuality" for over two millennia now.