Author Topic: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?  (Read 9439 times)

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Online gmillerdrake

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2021, 01:56:30 PM »
I was going to type up a response to GMD, but I'd just be piling on at this point. What I will say is that I'd never heard of Boyan Slat before. Whether or not that's good or bad I don't know, but I can certainly say he's not inspiring anybody. Here's the bigger deal, though. Plastic Island is a phenomenon we can see. We know it's real. It's tangible. Global warming is something that's still, for some reason, debated. It's not readily apparent, and if you're a dipshit, then it's hard to distinguish between global warming and simple weather. See Trump. "Wow, it sure is cold this winter. So much for global warming."

Here's something that bugs me, though. Wildranger, quite bizarrely, blames the fact that some youth were politically minded for their slaughter at the hand of some politically minded asshole. I think we can all agree that this is fucking stupid. Is that really any different to what's happening to Greta, though? Aren't we blaming her for the person others have made her out to be? If there's a hijacking, shouldn't we blame the hijackers instead of the people who just wanted to fly to Paris? Once we get to that point, though, it becomes much easier to dismiss the message, though, and I'm pretty sure that's the point.

Girl says something. Media elevates her to Jesus status. People blame her. Girl says something else. People "roll their eyes" because of how annoying she's become. Makes sense.

At in typing this, I answered my own question. It's best that we haven't heard of Boyan Slat, because then his message would be just as easily dismissed.

That's the thing, I'm not looking to blame her for what's happened to her message. I'm aware that she's been overtaken by a larger force looking to exploit her. Her 'message' is fine and legit. I get it. It's the powers that be that sauntered in and scooped her up that 'annoy' me and to no fault of her own.....now, when I see or hear her I can't help but roll my eyes and dismiss her due to her 'mainstream' status or whatever you want to call it.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #106 on: April 28, 2021, 02:05:19 PM »
I was going to type up a response to GMD, but I'd just be piling on at this point. What I will say is that I'd never heard of Boyan Slat before. Whether or not that's good or bad I don't know, but I can certainly say he's not inspiring anybody. Here's the bigger deal, though. Plastic Island is a phenomenon we can see. We know it's real. It's tangible. Global warming is something that's still, for some reason, debated. It's not readily apparent, and if you're a dipshit, then it's hard to distinguish between global warming and simple weather. See Trump. "Wow, it sure is cold this winter. So much for global warming."

Here's something that bugs me, though. Wildranger, quite bizarrely, blames the fact that some youth were politically minded for their slaughter at the hand of some politically minded asshole. I think we can all agree that this is fucking stupid. Is that really any different to what's happening to Greta, though? Aren't we blaming her for the person others have made her out to be? If there's a hijacking, shouldn't we blame the hijackers instead of the people who just wanted to fly to Paris? Once we get to that point, though, it becomes much easier to dismiss the message, though, and I'm pretty sure that's the point.

Girl says something. Media elevates her to Jesus status. People blame her. Girl says something else. People "roll their eyes" because of how annoying she's become. Makes sense.

At in typing this, I answered my own question. It's best that we haven't heard of Boyan Slat, because then his message would be just as easily dismissed.

That's the thing, I'm not looking to blame her for what's happened to her message. I'm aware that she's been overtaken by a larger force looking to exploit her. Her 'message' is fine and legit. I get it. It's the powers that be that sauntered in and scooped her up that 'annoy' me and to no fault of her own.....now, when I see or hear her I can't help but roll my eyes and dismiss her due to her 'mainstream' status or whatever you want to call it.
If that's your position then I'm good. Your earlier post, however, did not suggest that her position was fine and legit in the slightest, though. Far from it, in fact.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #107 on: April 28, 2021, 02:12:27 PM »
If that's your position then I'm good. Your earlier post, however, did not suggest that her position was fine and legit in the slightest, though. Far from it, in fact.

Well....the overall global warming conversation is legit and a conversation that needs to be had. My initial post was meant to state I don't find her to be the best spokesperson for that conversation given the way she delivers the message. Hijacked or not, she doesn't come across as inviting to have a conversation with....she's very off putting.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #108 on: April 28, 2021, 02:13:52 PM »
In response to the original thread question

She’s a squawky, noisy, opportunistic little gnat. Who ignores the realities of the world and just makes noise.

WOW - sounds like you're describing yourself.........

Hunnus, knock off the personal attacks.  If you can't respond to an opinion you don't like without attacking the person who posted it, best to stay out of the thread.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #109 on: April 28, 2021, 02:15:19 PM »
The problem for me is that it doesn't matter if it's the Dixie Chicks, Michelle Obama, the Parkland teens, the Black Lives Matter mothers, Greta, or anyone else. The minute someone with a platform says something that annoys red blooded America, it's over. The low brow jokes and insults and other disparagements come out, and now the goalposts have moved from discussion of the issues to discussion of an individual person.

And that unfortunately is the nature that anyone who advocates for some kind of change is facing. I fully admit the "left" do the same thing, but here's the difference: the right are, traditionally, advocates of the status quo, while the left are the advocates of some kind of change. For those who don't want change, it doesn't matter if we burn up all of our time arguing about someone's demeanor or personality, that's just time to stall until the opposition either 1.) go away or 2.) the establishment find their preferred solution to the problem. The more time we spent arguing about whether Greta is a meanie or not is time not spent addressing global warming.

And that is why it is the right (which probably includes the democrats here in the US) have always been hungry for the culture war. It's basically just milking the clock, putting the issues on the backburner until one party stumbles upon the politically viable "solution", probably the one the opposition were happy with all along. So, here we are. NetZero goals, "certified environmentally friendly" stickers on tablets, and a bunch of other nonsense that won't stop the seas from boiling. 

Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #110 on: April 28, 2021, 03:23:39 PM »
In response to the original thread question

She’s a squawky, noisy, opportunistic little gnat. Who ignores the realities of the world and just makes noise.

WOW - sounds like you're describing yourself.........



Hunnus, knock off the personal attacks.  If you can't respond to an opinion you don't like without attacking the person who posted it, best to stay out of the thread.

OK - let me try this - given the posters original opinion, it sounds as though his opinion of said activist is no different than the opinion he just gave without reason. So I am willing to ask, why is said activist an "opportunistic little gnat"? Maybe a little context would help me understand.

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Offline emtee

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #111 on: April 28, 2021, 03:55:30 PM »
There are certain topics that are guaranteed to bring out the worst in us. All of us. This is one of them. I've seen this since 2005 when I joined MP'S forum.

As I said earlier, Greta firmly believes that only 1 or 2 generations will survive climate change. That is her bedrock belief. She is frightened and angry. I wish someone whom she respected would let her know, that unless the sun explodes, or an asteroid impacts the Earth, that is not reality.

The cause is worthy but her doomy outlook needs a recalibration.

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #112 on: April 28, 2021, 03:59:58 PM »
I heard something the other day on a radio talk show that really stuck out to me. The 'save the planet' mantra is really the wrong way to approach this because well......the planet is not really in any danger. Yes, global warming.....animal species going extinct due to direct issues that man causes.....these are all valid points and happening. BUT....the planet and the species on it will survive and adapt. This really should be a 'save mankind' approach because it's us who are on the verge of extinction. The planet will be just fine.....what's happening now is just a large scale version of a broken bone or some sort of head cold for a person. Sucks when it happens but you get through it. Earth in the long run will be fine.
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Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #113 on: April 28, 2021, 04:12:22 PM »
Not sure what part of 'I prefer' is confusing?

Presentation is everything and 'I' perceive her as condescending and at times hateful. While the cause is certainly something that needs to be addressed I don't really connect at all with people when it feels like I'm being lectured instead of educated.

Well how inconvenient for you

Please....it's this type of response that can turn someone off from talking about something like this but I expect no less from the DTF faithful when it comes to a hot button topic.  Nowhere in my post did I say or allude to it being 'inconvenient' for me. I simply expressed I respond better to people who take action rather than just talk about it. If her approach is your thing then it's your thing. Pretty sure the thread title is 'Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?"  Those are my honest thoughts....no need to get snippy.


Yeah, because raising awareness about an issue that literally threatens the existence of mankind is not a very admirable thing to do at all.  Fuck this little brat, right?

C'mon Barry....seriously? Where in there did I specifically say 'F' her or the cause? Nowhere.

WOW - I thought Greta was taking action at a young age the best that she could with the resources at her disposal and you don't recognize that she's at least doing something?

BTW, I was not being snippy but I was answering and challenging your statement. I can talk about these opposing topics all day long without taking offense but it's rare that I find others that can.

Offline Dave_Manchester

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #114 on: April 28, 2021, 04:23:18 PM »
I heard something the other day on a radio talk show that really stuck out to me. The 'save the planet' mantra is really the wrong way to approach this because well......the planet is not really in any danger. Yes, global warming.....animal species going extinct due to direct issues that man causes.....these are all valid points and happening. BUT....the planet and the species on it will survive and adapt. This really should be a 'save mankind' approach because it's us who are on the verge of extinction. The planet will be just fine.....what's happening now is just a large scale version of a broken bone or some sort of head cold for a person. Sucks when it happens but you get through it. Earth in the long run will be fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #115 on: April 28, 2021, 04:26:41 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAJsdgTPJpU

This video has 69K likes and 47K dislikes, that means that Greta is polarizing among people, many people like/support her and also many people dislike her.
What are your views about this girl? Is she RIGHT or WRONG with her speeches and activities?

I probably live under a rock, but I've seen the name and her on the news, but truthfully, I have no idea who she is and no idea what she's on about and couldn't give two fucks about what she has to say either.  If for some reason I should watch this, let me know and I'll consider.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #116 on: April 28, 2021, 04:47:12 PM »
I heard something the other day on a radio talk show that really stuck out to me. The 'save the planet' mantra is really the wrong way to approach this because well......the planet is not really in any danger. Yes, global warming.....animal species going extinct due to direct issues that man causes.....these are all valid points and happening. BUT....the planet and the species on it will survive and adapt. This really should be a 'save mankind' approach because it's us who are on the verge of extinction. The planet will be just fine.....what's happening now is just a large scale version of a broken bone or some sort of head cold for a person. Sucks when it happens but you get through it. Earth in the long run will be fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

:clap:   Thanks for that. Pretty much sums it up. Looks like I’ll have to go down a George Carlin rabbit hole tonight.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #117 on: April 28, 2021, 04:52:34 PM »
George Carlin is a genius.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2021, 04:58:19 PM »
That was actually from '92, before we really thought about global warming, which was a shame as his premise would have worked much better. Living organisms get rid of hostile bodies by raising their temperature. I've read that honey bees learned to microwave murder hornets to death, FFS. The Earth running a fever would have worked better than creating AIDS.

Still, great bit.
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #119 on: April 28, 2021, 05:19:12 PM »
I saw Carlin in 92.  I bought his 7 durty words poster that was expanded to over 1000.  :lol
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Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2021, 01:09:59 AM »
As I said earlier, Greta firmly believes that only 1 or 2 generations will survive climate change. That is her bedrock belief. She is frightened and angry. I wish someone whom she respected would let her know, that unless the sun explodes, or an asteroid impacts the Earth, that is not reality.

While of course it's never wise to exagerate things or panic, what's the downside of trying to reduce pollution and gasses emissions on the planet? even if we won't literally die or starve in a Mad Max scenario, is it that futile to try to get rid Asia of the brown cloud that oppresses half the continent, or postpone - if it's in our hands - the further melting of ice which would mean not having to relocate people from costal towns?

I mean... "I've quit smoking because I was absolutely certain I would be dead at 50. Now I found out that many smokers live a normal life into old age. I've adopted a healthier lifestyle, rid my lungs of bad substances and saved on money I will no longer spend on cigarettes for nothing!"
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Offline emtee

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2021, 02:35:31 AM »
I said it was a worthy cause...right?

The downside for Gretta and those who feel similarly, is that she lives every day under that mental weight. It's similar to receiving a terminal diagnosis. And if you're already a worrier, have trouble processing stress, or on the spectrum, the quality of your life is greatly impacted.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2021, 07:49:51 AM »
I was going to type up a response to GMD, but I'd just be piling on at this point. What I will say is that I'd never heard of Boyan Slat before. Whether or not that's good or bad I don't know, but I can certainly say he's not inspiring anybody. Here's the bigger deal, though. Plastic Island is a phenomenon we can see. We know it's real. It's tangible. Global warming is something that's still, for some reason, debated. It's not readily apparent, and if you're a dipshit, then it's hard to distinguish between global warming and simple weather. See Trump. "Wow, it sure is cold this winter. So much for global warming."

Here's something that bugs me, though. Wildranger, quite bizarrely, blames the fact that some youth were politically minded for their slaughter at the hand of some politically minded asshole. I think we can all agree that this is fucking stupid. Is that really any different to what's happening to Greta, though? Aren't we blaming her for the person others have made her out to be? If there's a hijacking, shouldn't we blame the hijackers instead of the people who just wanted to fly to Paris? Once we get to that point, though, it becomes much easier to dismiss the message, though, and I'm pretty sure that's the point.

Girl says something. Media elevates her to Jesus status. People blame her. Girl says something else. People "roll their eyes" because of how annoying she's become. Makes sense.

At in typing this, I answered my own question. It's best that we haven't heard of Boyan Slat, because then his message would be just as easily dismissed.

Gary is right about one thing though:  this conversation is a microcosm of the way that issues are debated, at least here in the States, and it's a fuckin' disaster.  Hyperbole on this side, hyperbole on that side, and the main issue gets lost in the shuffle.

Even in the most extreme scenarios, mankind is not going extinct in the next generation or two, and in fact, not likely at all.   The likely response - still bad, don't get me wrong - is that hundreds of millions of people die, and our lifestyle and culture is irreparably changed.   Shoreline communities will disappear, but MAN will not, except at the most fringe of the continuum of likely outcomes.

That means, of course, that while it's not up for discussion about whether climate change exists, it is VERY MUCH up for discussion how bad it will get, and what is the solution - if there even is one at this point - for stemming that decline (I say that because we've likely crossed the rubicon on keeping temperature changes below the previously established threshold of 20C).   The fact is, in America - and perhaps the world - "hey, this MIGHT happen" is not a recipe for quick and decisive action.   We - humans - aren't wired that way, and ask any one that still smokes about that, or that drinks the devil's semen diet soda.   The "mankind will be extinct" is the climate change version of "women will die if Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed" and "your healthcare will be decided by Death PanelsTM".

I think we have to be careful not to confuse the issue with the analysis; I have zero doubt that climate change exists.  I am in no way, shape or form a "denier"; having said that, I DO NOT believe the worst case is inevitable, and do not believe we are extinct in two generations, or 30 years, or whatever the fear tactic of the moment is.   I also don't accept many of the proposed solutions to this (I'm speaking primarily here in the United States), particularly the ones that dovetail nicely with other, unrelated political party concerns.  The answer to climate change is not "wealth reallocation", it's not "punishing corporate America", and it's not America unilaterally bearing the burden of a "Green New Deal" while China and Russian bludgeon us economically.   The answer lies in a uniform, unified GLOBAL approach that cooperatively responds to the crisis in a way that doesn't advantage one geo-political axis over another.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2021, 07:55:40 AM »
The fact is, in America - and perhaps the world - "hey, this MIGHT happen" is not a recipe for quick and decisive action.

We don't need to look further than the current pandemic as a proof of this.

Pandemics already happened in the past. The latest one only a century ago. The SARS outbreak no longer than 20 years ago was a coronavirus. The causes for new pandemics were long known. It was a long, long time coming.

If Greta or even Al Gore would have spoken about it, what would have happened? if Al Gore made his life mission after 2003 and the SARS close call to educate as many people as possible as the very real danger of a disastrous pandemic, who would have cared for what he had to say? who would have imagined that we'd have to stop the world, even skip the Olympic games, given that the last time they were cancelled or moved, Adolf Hitler was still alive?

Let's admit it, no one of us, even those who took seriously the pandemic from day 1, would have imagined that this would have happened. And I have no doubt that the only thing that will make climate change everyone's priority will be a giant-ass piece of Antarctica detaching from the mainland, I mean a record breaking. "as big as 10 countries put together" iceberg. Only when Venice or Miami will be under water we'll truly realize the dangers of climate change. (Maybe it won't happen, or it won't happen in our lifetime but... would have anyone of us believed that a virus woud have locked the world inside their homes and cancelled big sporting events?)
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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #124 on: April 29, 2021, 08:00:47 AM »
I also don't accept many of the proposed solutions to this (I'm speaking primarily here in the United States), particularly the ones that dovetail nicely with other, unrelated political party concerns.  The answer to climate change is not "wealth reallocation", it's not "punishing corporate America", and it's not America unilaterally bearing the burden of a "Green New Deal" while China and Russian bludgeon us economically.   The answer lies in a uniform, unified GLOBAL approach that cooperatively responds to the crisis in a way that doesn't advantage one geo-political axis over another.

I agree with this, and it's almost laughable to think that (as some idealists like Liz Warren have suggestion) the US government 1.) could or 2.) would do anything at all to lead on this issue. Even if it actually wanted to, there is a major question of capability.

In my mind, it's almost a moot point. While 5 American billionaires argue through their media networks about what to do over the next three decades, China will have decided to make the investment and will be busy selling the solution to all its densely crowded neighbors in Africa, the pacific islands, and on the South Asian shoreline (all of our old friends, all expected to be at the forefront of the effects of climate change). Then when the climate doom catches up to us, we'll be at a total loss for what to do still, if the dying carcass of our burearacratic oligarchy is even capable of doing anything at all, and I guess at that point we'll get to decide whether we are willing to bend the knee to our new overlords in Beijing or not.

I guess this topic definitely belongs in PR now. Maybe for the best, so that I get to stay away from it  :lol

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #125 on: April 29, 2021, 08:19:31 AM »
WOW - I thought Greta was taking action at a young age the best that she could with the resources at her disposal and you don't recognize that she's at least doing something?

BTW, I was not being snippy but I was answering and challenging your statement. I can talk about these opposing topics all day long without taking offense but it's rare that I find others that can.

I say this to you and partly to Skeever (in his earlier post, not the one right above) too; "at least doing something" doesn't move the needle, though.  I feel obligated to say that "status quo" isn't always bad, particularly when the "change" is simply change for the sake of change, or a way of achieving a different, more subtle agenda.   This is in large part why Barry thinks I perpetually side with the "conservatives"; because too often, too much of the proposed "progress" - even if I believe in the objective - doesn't answer the bell.  Just by way of example, there's an argument that: guns; the generally proposed measures won't do a damn thing to stop someone who has it in their head that the answer to their problems is killing someone else.  This is not opinion, it is PROVEN.  Australia.  Washington DC. (They WOULD though, move to break the economic power of the NRA; reps and senators that vote conservative on guns ALSO vote conservative on OTHER issues).   Healthcare; the generally proposed measure (adopted) did NOT achieve lower cost healthcare for people, it did NOT achieve better outcomes for people, it did NOT solve the prescription drug issue, it did NOT break the employer/insurance nexus, it did NOT remove the state-by-state regulation that hampers cost effectiveness, and only partially - and under penalty of IRS enforcement - reduce the number of uninsureds.   (It would though, provide a broader, more systemic way of reallocating wealth.)   

I don't know that I believe ALL of that above, or that any of it is necessarily bad, but it's certainly something that has to be discussed before we can blanket determine that it's as simple as "wanting change" or "not wanting change".  There are plenty of people that aren't interested in letting politicians "feel good" and advertise as having "done something" that doesn't move the needle for real folk on the ground (see El Barto's summary of the recent gun law changes pushed by Joe Biden.  Almost entirely "all show, no go".) 


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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #126 on: April 29, 2021, 08:34:58 AM »
That's just it, though. How much longer do we throw our hands up on every single issue before we come around to the conclusion that we aren't leading on anything anymore? By the way, "status quo" doesn't really exist - you're either progressing or regressing. We've seen how that works on the worldwide scale (our influence is clearly diminishing), and the domestic agenda is next. Biden made it sound like we might be able to provide people with "clean water" again one day last night. How inspiring. What's next?

That's where conservatives need to realize that the endless himming-and-hawing only hurts the thing they claim to care most about in the end - American exceptionality. We can do "nothing" about climate change, or else come up with some soft incentives that don't really accomplish much. Fine with me. Someone will lead on it, because the global economy is at stake. It just won't be us. In my mind, the ship has sailed on whether it still can be or not. The only question left on the table is "why should anyone care"?

Offline hunnus2000

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #127 on: April 29, 2021, 08:42:59 AM »
WOW - I thought Greta was taking action at a young age the best that she could with the resources at her disposal and you don't recognize that she's at least doing something?

BTW, I was not being snippy but I was answering and challenging your statement. I can talk about these opposing topics all day long without taking offense but it's rare that I find others that can.

I say this to you and partly to Skeever (in his earlier post, not the one right above) too; "at least doing something" doesn't move the needle, though.  I feel obligated to say that "status quo" isn't always bad, particularly when the "change" is simply change for the sake of change, or a way of achieving a different, more subtle agenda.   This is in large part why Barry thinks I perpetually side with the "conservatives"; because too often, too much of the proposed "progress" - even if I believe in the objective - doesn't answer the bell.  Just by way of example, there's an argument that: guns; the generally proposed measures won't do a damn thing to stop someone who has it in their head that the answer to their problems is killing someone else.  This is not opinion, it is PROVEN.  Australia.  Washington DC. (They WOULD though, move to break the economic power of the NRA; reps and senators that vote conservative on guns ALSO vote conservative on OTHER issues).   Healthcare; the generally proposed measure (adopted) did NOT achieve lower cost healthcare for people, it did NOT achieve better outcomes for people, it did NOT solve the prescription drug issue, it did NOT break the employer/insurance nexus, it did NOT remove the state-by-state regulation that hampers cost effectiveness, and only partially - and under penalty of IRS enforcement - reduce the number of uninsureds.   (It would though, provide a broader, more systemic way of reallocating wealth.)   

I don't know that I believe ALL of that above, or that any of it is necessarily bad, but it's certainly something that has to be discussed before we can blanket determine that it's as simple as "wanting change" or "not wanting change".  There are plenty of people that aren't interested in letting politicians "feel good" and advertise as having "done something" that doesn't move the needle for real folk on the ground (see El Barto's summary of the recent gun law changes pushed by Joe Biden.  Almost entirely "all show, no go".)

There's nothing here I disagree with. Every time I hear "thoughts and prayers" I want to rip my hair out. However, I am not inclined to look at a 16 year old and say that her words are useless without action. Activism comes in all forms even if it's just education.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #128 on: April 29, 2021, 09:21:27 AM »
Here's something that is being done and is being implemented and is getting the Youth to actually learn about the environment and actually give them work.

Quote
The Tribal Youth Coastal Restoration Program will help fund projects run by the Chitimacha Tribe of Louisiana, Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, Seminole Tribe of Florida, Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians, Poarch Band of Creek Indians and the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana. Each Tribe has proposed its own teaching and experiential learning opportunities to prepare students to understand and respect the natural environment, such as native plant restoration, site cleanup, and water and soil sampling.

Participants will be encouraged to pursue additional courses and degree programs that will enable them to pursue careers in natural resources conservation. The activities also provide skills needed to work on restoration throughout the Gulf and engage the Native Gulf community in the larger restoration effort.

The Tribal Youth Coastal Restoration Program was initially approved by the RESTORE Council in 2015 and trained 239 students in five tribes, who restored 995 acres. The program's success led the 11-member RESTORE Council, which includes Gulf state and federal members, to unanimously approve this three-year program, which builds on the initial investment and adds the Coushatta Tribe of Louisiana.

https://nativenewsonline.net/currents/sec-deb-haaland-announces-funding-for-six-tribal-youth-environmental-and-economic-empowerment-projects



This is actually doing something about Climate Change.

What we humans, mainly the Colonizers, do and did affected the way climate changes. From depleting the World of its resources, and spewing them in the air, it caused the Earth to become sick. And in reality, Earth will heal herself of the virus, it is its own immune system.

Everything we do has consequences, it's what we Natives knew and understood and why we don't have these technologies. Well, we did once, but used it to for war. We knew we had capabilities far beyond what we do now, but it was taken because of how we used that power. We know of these things because it has happened before. These are in our oral stories, and the evidence is there in our ruins.


The Earth has healed herself many times before, and many times, humans migrated and ended up living somewhere more habitable. Humans will survive, the same as many animals have survived.

If all things on Earth have life, we humans are killing life, of animals, seas, plants, and dirt, and most of all ourselves.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #129 on: April 29, 2021, 09:31:07 AM »
That's just it, though. How much longer do we throw our hands up on every single issue before we come around to the conclusion that we aren't leading on anything anymore? By the way, "status quo" doesn't really exist - you're either progressing or regressing. We've seen how that works on the worldwide scale (our influence is clearly diminishing), and the domestic agenda is next. Biden made it sound like we might be able to provide people with "clean water" again one day last night. How inspiring. What's next?

I agree with this a lot, and like the strategic thinking (nothing is in a vacuum).

Quote
That's where conservatives need to realize that the endless himming-and-hawing only hurts the thing they claim to care most about in the end - American exceptionality. We can do "nothing" about climate change, or else come up with some soft incentives that don't really accomplish much. Fine with me. Someone will lead on it, because the global economy is at stake. It just won't be us. In my mind, the ship has sailed on whether it still can be or not. The only question left on the table is "why should anyone care"?

And for every "conservative" critique, there's a "liberal" one.  If given the choice, I'll take hemming and hawing over hyperbole and moral bullying that leads only to thinly veiled 'change' that doesn't do what it's intended to do, and instead leads us to things like Trump (you're not in P/R, but see Dave Manchester's post from yesterday or the day before about the "problem" with American liberals).  Regardless of who is at "fault" (hint, it's both), all of it is just partisan bickering, and all of it just sets the stage for that Beijing kowtow that you talked about above (which, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with, even if I don't get there by the same path).

Climate change is not one of those issues that one can "lead" on in the sense that I think we use that term here in the States.  It's an issue we ALL solve or we don't.  It's like being half-pregnant.  There are not borders to it, there are not jurisdictions.   The pollution in Beijing affects US, the pollution in New York affects Europe, the pollution in Russia affects China, and on across the globe.   China "outpollutes" us by a factor of two.  We - the U.S. - only account for about 15% of global CO2 emissions (same source). 

Any solution that doesn't obliterate borders is not going to be successful, and we CAN'T lead, because the economic burden would cripple us in short order.  I sell trains; I'm already at an economic disadvantage when we bid against Chinese firms, not least of which because they can meet ANY price. ANY price (because the government will subsidize any COGS or infrastructure requirements to make the deal work). Now add an additional global environmental burden on U.S. firms, but don't do the same to the Chinese and the divide widens.  I don't know what your sport is, but imagine if your team, in the interest of, say, reducing CTE decided to wear steel braces from the back of their thighs up to past their head and wrap their heads in foam, but the other team didn't.  Sure, they'd be safer, but before long they'd be bankrupt because they cannot keep pace.  It's kind of akin to the doping in cycling as well; we'd LIKE to be better, to be more pure, but unless ALL riders are on the same baseline, it's a futile gesture.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 09:38:28 AM by Stadler »

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #130 on: April 29, 2021, 09:32:57 AM »
WOW - I thought Greta was taking action at a young age the best that she could with the resources at her disposal and you don't recognize that she's at least doing something?

BTW, I was not being snippy but I was answering and challenging your statement. I can talk about these opposing topics all day long without taking offense but it's rare that I find others that can.

I say this to you and partly to Skeever (in his earlier post, not the one right above) too; "at least doing something" doesn't move the needle, though.  I feel obligated to say that "status quo" isn't always bad, particularly when the "change" is simply change for the sake of change, or a way of achieving a different, more subtle agenda.   This is in large part why Barry thinks I perpetually side with the "conservatives"; because too often, too much of the proposed "progress" - even if I believe in the objective - doesn't answer the bell.  Just by way of example, there's an argument that: guns; the generally proposed measures won't do a damn thing to stop someone who has it in their head that the answer to their problems is killing someone else.  This is not opinion, it is PROVEN.  Australia.  Washington DC. (They WOULD though, move to break the economic power of the NRA; reps and senators that vote conservative on guns ALSO vote conservative on OTHER issues).   Healthcare; the generally proposed measure (adopted) did NOT achieve lower cost healthcare for people, it did NOT achieve better outcomes for people, it did NOT solve the prescription drug issue, it did NOT break the employer/insurance nexus, it did NOT remove the state-by-state regulation that hampers cost effectiveness, and only partially - and under penalty of IRS enforcement - reduce the number of uninsureds.   (It would though, provide a broader, more systemic way of reallocating wealth.)   

I don't know that I believe ALL of that above, or that any of it is necessarily bad, but it's certainly something that has to be discussed before we can blanket determine that it's as simple as "wanting change" or "not wanting change".  There are plenty of people that aren't interested in letting politicians "feel good" and advertise as having "done something" that doesn't move the needle for real folk on the ground (see El Barto's summary of the recent gun law changes pushed by Joe Biden.  Almost entirely "all show, no go".)

There's nothing here I disagree with. Every time I hear "thoughts and prayers" I want to rip my hair out. However, I am not inclined to look at a 16 year old and say that her words are useless without action. Activism comes in all forms even if it's just education.

It's good to have thoughts and prayers. But that only does so much, and it's effect takes time.

It's why, we have freewill, to actually do something, and put those thoughts and prayers into action. My native people never just prayed for things, we understand you also have to put in the work to receive those blessings. It's the same as the Amish, and why they live that lifestyle, for their prayers will be answered if they put in the work. It's also not easy work.

The creator is not lazy. It's why Idle hands are the Devil's Playground.

It's why I say as well, people need to have Self-Responsibility. It's like being an activist and just spewing words on social media and speaking on a podium, most activists I follow and know are actually out there in the streets, doing volunteer work, and doing things for their community besides just Soapboxing.

Immortal Technique just doesn't make hip-hop music. He is one whom actually is out there, volunteering himself and taking his own time to help people. People can't even be bothered to take their own time to do this.

I have mad respect for people that actually take their own time to do these things. Rather then, just spewing shit online and not doing anything.

Greta could start getting her own classmates and think of something to do that will benefit the planet.
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Online Skeever

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #131 on: April 29, 2021, 11:01:47 AM »
And for every "conservative" critique, there's a "liberal" one.  If given the choice, I'll take hemming and hawing over hyperbole and moral bullying that leads only to thinly veiled 'change' that doesn't do what it's intended to do, and instead leads us to things like Trump (you're not in P/R, but see Dave Manchester's post from yesterday or the day before about the "problem" with American liberals).  Regardless of who is at "fault" (hint, it's both), all of it is just partisan bickering, and all of it just sets the stage for that Beijing kowtow that you talked about above (which, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with, even if I don't get there by the same path).

Just responding to this part, because it's the only part of your post I'd like to qualify. There's a limit to how much you can blame "both sides" for this issue, because it's the conservatives that harbor the bulk of those who quite plainly do want to deny and do nothing. Of course, the liberals do this on a litany of issues too, but this isn't one of them. Coming up with half-baked solutions? Sure. Outright denial? Nah.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 11:13:35 AM by Skeever »

Offline cramx3

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #132 on: April 29, 2021, 11:06:23 AM »
I heard something the other day on a radio talk show that really stuck out to me. The 'save the planet' mantra is really the wrong way to approach this because well......the planet is not really in any danger. Yes, global warming.....animal species going extinct due to direct issues that man causes.....these are all valid points and happening. BUT....the planet and the species on it will survive and adapt. This really should be a 'save mankind' approach because it's us who are on the verge of extinction. The planet will be just fine.....what's happening now is just a large scale version of a broken bone or some sort of head cold for a person. Sucks when it happens but you get through it. Earth in the long run will be fine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c

Oh man, I haven't watched this in a long time. SO SPOT ON STILL.  Absolutely amazing how this stands the test of time.

Offline Stadler

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #133 on: April 29, 2021, 12:58:53 PM »
And for every "conservative" critique, there's a "liberal" one.  If given the choice, I'll take hemming and hawing over hyperbole and moral bullying that leads only to thinly veiled 'change' that doesn't do what it's intended to do, and instead leads us to things like Trump (you're not in P/R, but see Dave Manchester's post from yesterday or the day before about the "problem" with American liberals).  Regardless of who is at "fault" (hint, it's both), all of it is just partisan bickering, and all of it just sets the stage for that Beijing kowtow that you talked about above (which, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with, even if I don't get there by the same path).

Just responding to this part, because it's the only part of your post I'd like to qualify. There's a limit to how much you can blame "both sides" for this issue, because it's the conservatives that harbor the bulk of those who quite plainly do want to deny and do nothing. Of course, the liberals do this on a litany of issues too, but this isn't one of them. Coming up with half-baked solutions? Sure. Outright denial? Nah.

A fantastic (if perhaps slightly dated now) article that counters your point nicely:  The Republican position — either avowed ignorance or conspiracy theorizing — is ultimately unsustainable, but some still cling to it because they believe that accepting the premise that some climate change is occurring as a result of human action means accepting the conclusions of the most rabid left-wing climate activists. They fear, at least implicitly, that the politics of climate change is just a twisted road with a known destination: supporting new carbon taxes, a cap-and-trade system, or other statist means of energy rationing, and in the process ceding yet another key economic sector to government control. Conservatives seem to be on the horns of a dilemma: They will have to either continue to ignore real scientific findings or accept higher taxes, energy rationing, and increased regulation.

For someone like me - not a Republican, not a politician, actually a scientist (of sorts; I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering) and VEHEMENTLY  against the "tax and punish" solutions largely put forth by those with solutions - that's a shitty position, but it makes sense.   

But even if you don't buy into that - and I can understand if you don't - the numbers DO NOT support your position. Sure, Jim Inhoff and Donald Trump get the headlines with their snowballs and crappy weather forecasts, but the reality on the ground is NOT what you say it is.

39% of REPUBLICANS say we're not doing enough to combat climate change.  Think about that; forget about "denying"; almost 40% not only accept it, but think we're NOT DOING ENOUGH.  When you add in Independents that lean right, we're over 65%.   A majority of Republicans under the age of 38 think we're not doing enough.  Again, this is past denying, this is accepting and addressing and not doing enough.   75% of CONSERVATIVE Republicans think we're not doing enough or doing just the right amount.  Again, NOT denying, but past that, addressing action. 

90% of Democrats think we should prioritize alternative energy development over expanded oil, coal and natural gas exploration and production.   The party of "Big Oil"?  The Republicans?   Over 60% think we should prioritize alternative energy development over expanded oil, coal and natural gas exploration and production.

Skeever, again, not telling you what to think, but I think it's pretty clear that the data doesn't fully reflect your perceptions.  I know they are your experience, and I don't discount that, but I'm kindly telling you that experience doesn't account for changing times, changing demographics and changing priorities.

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #134 on: April 29, 2021, 01:15:38 PM »
I was going to type up a response to GMD, but I'd just be piling on at this point. What I will say is that I'd never heard of Boyan Slat before. Whether or not that's good or bad I don't know, but I can certainly say he's not inspiring anybody. Here's the bigger deal, though. Plastic Island is a phenomenon we can see. We know it's real. It's tangible. Global warming is something that's still, for some reason, debated. It's not readily apparent, and if you're a dipshit, then it's hard to distinguish between global warming and simple weather. See Trump. "Wow, it sure is cold this winter. So much for global warming."

Here's something that bugs me, though. Wildranger, quite bizarrely, blames the fact that some youth were politically minded for their slaughter at the hand of some politically minded asshole. I think we can all agree that this is fucking stupid. Is that really any different to what's happening to Greta, though? Aren't we blaming her for the person others have made her out to be? If there's a hijacking, shouldn't we blame the hijackers instead of the people who just wanted to fly to Paris? Once we get to that point, though, it becomes much easier to dismiss the message, though, and I'm pretty sure that's the point.

Girl says something. Media elevates her to Jesus status. People blame her. Girl says something else. People "roll their eyes" because of how annoying she's become. Makes sense.

At in typing this, I answered my own question. It's best that we haven't heard of Boyan Slat, because then his message would be just as easily dismissed.

Gary is right about one thing though:  this conversation is a microcosm of the way that issues are debated, at least here in the States, and it's a fuckin' disaster.  Hyperbole on this side, hyperbole on that side, and the main issue gets lost in the shuffle.

Even in the most extreme scenarios, mankind is not going extinct in the next generation or two, and in fact, not likely at all.   The likely response - still bad, don't get me wrong - is that hundreds of millions of people die, and our lifestyle and culture is irreparably changed.   Shoreline communities will disappear, but MAN will not, except at the most fringe of the continuum of likely outcomes.

That means, of course, that while it's not up for discussion about whether climate change exists, it is VERY MUCH up for discussion how bad it will get, and what is the solution - if there even is one at this point - for stemming that decline (I say that because we've likely crossed the rubicon on keeping temperature changes below the previously established threshold of 20C).   The fact is, in America - and perhaps the world - "hey, this MIGHT happen" is not a recipe for quick and decisive action.   We - humans - aren't wired that way, and ask any one that still smokes about that, or that drinks the devil's semen diet soda.   The "mankind will be extinct" is the climate change version of "women will die if Brett Kavanaugh is confirmed" and "your healthcare will be decided by Death PanelsTM".

I think we have to be careful not to confuse the issue with the analysis; I have zero doubt that climate change exists.  I am in no way, shape or form a "denier"; having said that, I DO NOT believe the worst case is inevitable, and do not believe we are extinct in two generations, or 30 years, or whatever the fear tactic of the moment is.   I also don't accept many of the proposed solutions to this (I'm speaking primarily here in the United States), particularly the ones that dovetail nicely with other, unrelated political party concerns.  The answer to climate change is not "wealth reallocation", it's not "punishing corporate America", and it's not America unilaterally bearing the burden of a "Green New Deal" while China and Russian bludgeon us economically.   The answer lies in a uniform, unified GLOBAL approach that cooperatively responds to the crisis in a way that doesn't advantage one geo-political axis over another.


I may very well have missed it, but when did Greta Thunberg say "mankind will be extinct in the next generation or two?"  You're ripping on hyperbole with...hyperbole?

Online Skeever

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #135 on: April 29, 2021, 02:17:31 PM »
And for every "conservative" critique, there's a "liberal" one.  If given the choice, I'll take hemming and hawing over hyperbole and moral bullying that leads only to thinly veiled 'change' that doesn't do what it's intended to do, and instead leads us to things like Trump (you're not in P/R, but see Dave Manchester's post from yesterday or the day before about the "problem" with American liberals).  Regardless of who is at "fault" (hint, it's both), all of it is just partisan bickering, and all of it just sets the stage for that Beijing kowtow that you talked about above (which, by the way, I wholeheartedly agree with, even if I don't get there by the same path).

Just responding to this part, because it's the only part of your post I'd like to qualify. There's a limit to how much you can blame "both sides" for this issue, because it's the conservatives that harbor the bulk of those who quite plainly do want to deny and do nothing. Of course, the liberals do this on a litany of issues too, but this isn't one of them. Coming up with half-baked solutions? Sure. Outright denial? Nah.

A fantastic (if perhaps slightly dated now) article that counters your point nicely:  The Republican position — either avowed ignorance or conspiracy theorizing — is ultimately unsustainable, but some still cling to it because they believe that accepting the premise that some climate change is occurring as a result of human action means accepting the conclusions of the most rabid left-wing climate activists. They fear, at least implicitly, that the politics of climate change is just a twisted road with a known destination: supporting new carbon taxes, a cap-and-trade system, or other statist means of energy rationing, and in the process ceding yet another key economic sector to government control. Conservatives seem to be on the horns of a dilemma: They will have to either continue to ignore real scientific findings or accept higher taxes, energy rationing, and increased regulation.

For someone like me - not a Republican, not a politician, actually a scientist (of sorts; I have a B.S. in Civil Engineering) and VEHEMENTLY  against the "tax and punish" solutions largely put forth by those with solutions - that's a shitty position, but it makes sense.   

But even if you don't buy into that - and I can understand if you don't - the numbers DO NOT support your position. Sure, Jim Inhoff and Donald Trump get the headlines with their snowballs and crappy weather forecasts, but the reality on the ground is NOT what you say it is.

39% of REPUBLICANS say we're not doing enough to combat climate change.  Think about that; forget about "denying"; almost 40% not only accept it, but think we're NOT DOING ENOUGH.  When you add in Independents that lean right, we're over 65%.   A majority of Republicans under the age of 38 think we're not doing enough.  Again, this is past denying, this is accepting and addressing and not doing enough.   75% of CONSERVATIVE Republicans think we're not doing enough or doing just the right amount.  Again, NOT denying, but past that, addressing action. 

90% of Democrats think we should prioritize alternative energy development over expanded oil, coal and natural gas exploration and production.   The party of "Big Oil"?  The Republicans?   Over 60% think we should prioritize alternative energy development over expanded oil, coal and natural gas exploration and production.

Skeever, again, not telling you what to think, but I think it's pretty clear that the data doesn't fully reflect your perceptions.  I know they are your experience, and I don't discount that, but I'm kindly telling you that experience doesn't account for changing times, changing demographics and changing priorities.

I don't think we're really as far apart on this as I may have led you to believe based on my remarks about conservatives. For example, even though it's by no means a permanent solution or a one size fits all answer, I absolutely think we need to explore nuclear. For reasons that I cannot understand, that idea has almost no currency on the left.

Offline WildRanger

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #136 on: May 02, 2021, 04:13:16 AM »
I know many people find her facial expressions during speeches visually unpleasant.


Offline darkshade

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #137 on: May 02, 2021, 05:13:51 PM »
If she was 35, we wouldn't know who she is.

Unless her name was Sandy.

Offline XJDenton

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2021, 05:55:27 PM »
I know many people find her facial expressions during speeches visually unpleasant.

That's a highly odd thing to focus on.
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Offline IDontNotDoThings

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Re: Your honest thoughts on Greta Thunberg?
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2021, 10:56:38 PM »
I know many people find her facial expressions during speeches visually unpleasant.

Luckily for her, she's not a model, otherwise that would actually be relevant :V
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