Marvel Cinematic Universe thread v3 (no recent spoilers)

[lonestar]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agreed. Some folks are so easily triggered these days by anything that isn't about white guys shooting guns. But I digress. Whatever anyone thinks is "woke" I see as beautiful inclusion and diversity. Seeing Tenoch Huerta excited to be on stage and express that excitement in English AND Spanish was amazing and I'm happy that more diverse actors are being cast in these roles. I've seen so many different kinds of people so happy to meet heroes who represent them, like deaf folks meeting Lauren Ridloff (Eternals' Makkari), crying tears of joy to finally see a big screen hero who is like them. And recently, I've seen so many Mexican and Central American descendants so proud to see Namor played by Tenoch.

It's a beautiful thing, I tell ya, and the Marvel Comics have been doing this for decades. Marvel Studios just going to keep expanding and diversifying in the years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Fantastic Four aren't white, or if Professor X and/or Magneto end up being black. As long as the stories fit them, and they act their butts off, I'll be happy to see them on screen in the MCU!

-Marc.

Yeah, all of this. Just seeing Iman Vellani's reaction to discovering a young, female Muslim superhero to identify with in her youth says all I needed to know about its importance.

I'll never forget a YouTube video of a group reacting to a Black Panther theater display, wondering if that's what white people felt like all the time. That speaks volumes to me.

https://youtu.be/7H97GhLWZR8

[bosk1]

^What Stadler said.  But that's also a side issue from the point I was making, which the latest posts have unintentionally bolstered, which is:  that is all secondary to good writing, and in the case of poor writing, just ends up being a distraction to get people talking about something other than the bad writing.

[The Letter M]

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/avengers-the-kang-dynasty-to-be-directed-by-shang-chi-filmmaker-destin-daniel-cretton-exclusive-1235186348/

Looks like the director of Shang-Chi, Destin Daniel Cretton, will direct the next Avengers film. Maybe this is more or less confirmation that Shang-Chi will be an Avenger by then. Either way, I'm excited to see him flex his directorial skills in a bit tentpole film like Avengers: The Kang Dynasty in 2025.

-Marc.

[jingle.boy]

In the vacuum of an individual film, I can see how things like race, sexuality, disability might seem "forced".  Over the context of the entire MCU of 30+ films and TV shows, having 2 deaf, a handful of Asians, and smattering of LGBTQ characters is not something I would characterize as "forced".

That's just me.

[soupytwist]

^What Stadler said.  But that's also a side issue from the point I was making, which the latest posts have unintentionally bolstered, which is:  that is all secondary to good writing, and in the case of poor writing, just ends up being a distraction to get people talking about something other than the bad writing.

Good writing to bad/poor writing is talking in extremes (although that's all people seem to be able to do these days, there is no middle ground).  You can make a case that the writing on certain area's within phase 4 isn't as strong as other periods of the previous phases, and maybe I'd agree.  But Bad, Poor, Woke etc....Sorry I just roll my eyes.  |In my opinion Shang Chi was one of the better origin stories, Thor 4 is the 2nd best Thor film,  Spiderman was top 5 and Doctor Strange 2 was more enjoyable than the first one - yeah Eternals was poor and Black Widow is one of the weaker entries but overall Phase 4 has been decent enough.

[King Postwhore]

^What Stadler said.  But that's also a side issue from the point I was making, which the latest posts have unintentionally bolstered, which is:  that is all secondary to good writing, and in the case of poor writing, just ends up being a distraction to get people talking about something other than the bad writing.

Good writing to bad/poor writing is talking in extremes (although that's all people seem to be able to do these days, there is no middle ground).  You can make a case that the writing on certain area's within phase 4 isn't as strong as other periods of the previous phases, and maybe I'd agree.  But Bad, Poor, Woke etc....Sorry I just roll my eyes.  |In my opinion Shang Chi was one of the better origin stories, Thor 4 is the 2nd best Thor film,  Spiderman was top 5 and Doctor Strange 2 was more enjoyable than the first one - yeah Eternals was poor and Black Widow is one of the weaker entries but overall Phase 4 has been decent enough.

I agree with all of this which leads me again to my point that we are coming of the euphoria of Infinity War & Endgame.  Everything else after seems like a letdown. 

[lonestar]

As a whole the writing in phase 4 has been as strong as any other phase. It has had its weak moments (Eternals), but Wandavision and Moon Knight were as strong as anything in the MCU, easily.

[Stadler]

So I made the joke, but a more serious response appears in order.   Marvel has been ahead of this curve for a long time, and that's admirable.  One of the things I like about Lee, Kirby, Ditka, et al. is their willingness to push boundaries in that way.  As someone who respects (and agrees with) the underlying sentiment, but sometimes has problems with the execution, though, the pointing fingers at those that aren't all in isn't necessary.  There are moments where it's natural and organic, and works.  But there are moments in the MCU where it's ham-fisted, and the message isn't one of love and diversity, but seems to be more virtue signaling or adversarial. 

I don't think its necessarily true that it's perfectly done in all cases, and if you're not okay with that then "Suck it, Trebek".

Well I will also admit that sometimes these inclusions for diversity do seem like "diversity for diversity's sake" and can feel very forced, but I feel like it's better to try than not try at all. Some folks will find pride and happiness in their representation, and for the chance at that, I don't mind a bit of odd writing or corniness in my films about fictional super heroes with outlandish powers and costumes.

-Marc.

And that's fine (though there are inherent problems with the "representation" idea; if everyone needs to "see them to be them", we're still living in caves). I'm more talking about the attacking, with words like "butt hurt" and "triggering", those that don't agree or see it the same way.  It's almost making the very point that the critics (in the good sense of the word) are trying to make; it's not about the actual underlying message, it's about one's reaction to it.  What's inclusive about wanting to see someone uncomfortable or put out?  That's not really the point of a tentpole superhero movie like most of the MCU films are.

[soupytwist]

So I made the joke, but a more serious response appears in order.   Marvel has been ahead of this curve for a long time, and that's admirable.  One of the things I like about Lee, Kirby, Ditka, et al. is their willingness to push boundaries in that way.  As someone who respects (and agrees with) the underlying sentiment, but sometimes has problems with the execution, though, the pointing fingers at those that aren't all in isn't necessary.  There are moments where it's natural and organic, and works.  But there are moments in the MCU where it's ham-fisted, and the message isn't one of love and diversity, but seems to be more virtue signaling or adversarial. 

I don't think its necessarily true that it's perfectly done in all cases, and if you're not okay with that then "Suck it, Trebek".

Well I will also admit that sometimes these inclusions for diversity do seem like "diversity for diversity's sake" and can feel very forced, but I feel like it's better to try than not try at all. Some folks will find pride and happiness in their representation, and for the chance at that, I don't mind a bit of odd writing or corniness in my films about fictional super heroes with outlandish powers and costumes.

-Marc.

And that's fine (though there are inherent problems with the "representation" idea; if everyone needs to "see them to be them", we're still living in caves). I'm more talking about the attacking, with words like "butt hurt" and "triggering", those that don't agree or see it the same way.  It's almost making the very point that the critics (in the good sense of the word) are trying to make; it's not about the actual underlying message, it's about one's reaction to it.  What's inclusive about wanting to see someone uncomfortable or put out?  That's not really the point of a tentpole superhero movie like most of the MCU films are.

So all superhero's should be straight white males to keep a certain aspects of society from feeling put out (which often manifests itself in review bombing and typing offensive messages to cast members)?

[Stadler]

So I made the joke, but a more serious response appears in order.   Marvel has been ahead of this curve for a long time, and that's admirable.  One of the things I like about Lee, Kirby, Ditka, et al. is their willingness to push boundaries in that way.  As someone who respects (and agrees with) the underlying sentiment, but sometimes has problems with the execution, though, the pointing fingers at those that aren't all in isn't necessary.  There are moments where it's natural and organic, and works.  But there are moments in the MCU where it's ham-fisted, and the message isn't one of love and diversity, but seems to be more virtue signaling or adversarial. 

I don't think its necessarily true that it's perfectly done in all cases, and if you're not okay with that then "Suck it, Trebek".

Well I will also admit that sometimes these inclusions for diversity do seem like "diversity for diversity's sake" and can feel very forced, but I feel like it's better to try than not try at all. Some folks will find pride and happiness in their representation, and for the chance at that, I don't mind a bit of odd writing or corniness in my films about fictional super heroes with outlandish powers and costumes.

-Marc.

And that's fine (though there are inherent problems with the "representation" idea; if everyone needs to "see them to be them", we're still living in caves). I'm more talking about the attacking, with words like "butt hurt" and "triggering", those that don't agree or see it the same way.  It's almost making the very point that the critics (in the good sense of the word) are trying to make; it's not about the actual underlying message, it's about one's reaction to it.  What's inclusive about wanting to see someone uncomfortable or put out?  That's not really the point of a tentpole superhero movie like most of the MCU films are.

So all superhero's should be straight white males to keep a certain aspects of society from feeling put out (which often manifests itself in review bombing and typing offensive messages to cast members)?

I'm not sure where I said anything like that.  Superhero movies should reflect our society like anything else.  ??

[lordxizor]

In the vacuum of an individual film, I can see how things like race, sexuality, disability might seem "forced".  Over the context of the entire MCU of 30+ films and TV shows, having 2 deaf, a handful of Asians, and smattering of LGBTQ characters is not something I would characterize as "forced".

That's just me.

I tend to agree with that opinion. I think the overall goal should be for the characters to represent a reflection of real life. Approximately 50/50 male/female, 5-10% LGBTQ (whatever the actual percentage is), racial make-up reflecting the area the movie is taking place, etc. A smattering of characters with disabilities. Maybe not all in one movie, but it should average out over 3-5 movies/shows.

One thing that I think can make LGBTQ people feel over represented at times is the assumption that all other characters or cis-gendered, or straight. In the MCU only a handful of characters sexuality is mentioned at all, tending to be the main characters. So yes, we're due for an LGBTQ character, but it's not like we've had hundreds of straight relationships.

I think it can be the same thing with religion. It's easy to see a bunch of white people in America and assume they're Christian. So when Ms Marvel is focused on her Muslim faith and culture in a way that we've never seen with a character in the MCU before, it's easy to think... hey wait... the US has 20x more Christians than Muslims and we've never had someone's Christian faith front and center before. So it can feel forced in a way.

But overall I appreciate varied viewpoints, backgrounds, lifestyles, etc.

[bosk1]

^What Stadler said.  But that's also a side issue from the point I was making, which the latest posts have unintentionally bolstered, which is:  that is all secondary to good writing, and in the case of poor writing, just ends up being a distraction to get people talking about something other than the bad writing.

Good writing to bad/poor writing is talking in extremes (although that's all people seem to be able to do these days, there is no middle ground).  You can make a case that the writing on certain area's within phase 4 isn't as strong as other periods of the previous phases, and maybe I'd agree.  But Bad, Poor, Woke etc....Sorry I just roll my eyes.  |In my opinion Shang Chi was one of the better origin stories, Thor 4 is the 2nd best Thor film,  Spiderman was top 5 and Doctor Strange 2 was more enjoyable than the first one - yeah Eternals was poor and Black Widow is one of the weaker entries but overall Phase 4 has been decent enough.

Hey, if you like where the MCU has been going, cool.  Enjoy it.  In lots of other contexts, I don't mind poor writing.  But I have come to expect more from the MCU because, by and large, the writing in phases 1-3 was solid.  If you don't see the extreme dropoff and choose to ignore it and roll your eyes at people who point it out, then by all means, keep enjoying what you enjoy and don't let me stop you. 

But for me, I see the dropoff as a problem, and I'm not going to ignore it just because of what they've done in the past or how good they might be at distracting from the dropoff.  Maybe the overall story arc is going to be good enough that I can excuse it.  (I'm perfectly willing to concede that the MCU has built up enough good will that they've earned some of that)  But I'm not going to ignore it and pretend it isn't there.

So all superhero's should be straight white males to keep a certain aspects of society from feeling put out (which often manifests itself in review bombing and typing offensive messages to cast members)?

Yeah, precisely nobody in this thread said that, so stop putting words in people's mouths to try to bait an argument.

I agree with all of this which leads me again to my point that we are coming of the euphoria of Infinity War & Endgame.  Everything else after seems like a letdown.

Nope.  Not the issue at all.  I said repeatedly in this thread and other MCU threads that I fully expect a letdown after the Infinity Saga.  If the MCU writers never reach anywhere near those heights again (and I don't expect them to), that's fine.  They pulled off a masterpiece building up to and executing those stories.  Of course what follows is going to be a letdown.  That isn't the issue.  A letdown is different from poor writing where themes are abandoned mid-film or things happen that are inconsistent with prior MCU lore or even things that were previously established within the same film.  Those kinds of issue never (or rarely) happened in phases 1-3.  Now they are routine.

As a whole the writing in phase 4 has been as strong as any other phase. It has had its weak moments (Eternals), but Wandavision and Moon Knight were as strong as anything in the MCU, easily.

I know this isn't responding to me directly, but since I started the discussion, I will chime in by (again) having to repeat myself:  It isn't about the D+ shows.  Those have largely been stellar.  I am talking about the decline in quality of the phase 4 films.

And that's fine (though there are inherent problems with the "representation" idea; if everyone needs to "see them to be them", we're still living in caves). I'm more talking about the attacking, with words like "butt hurt" and "triggering", those that don't agree or see it the same way.  It's almost making the very point that the critics (in the good sense of the word) are trying to make; it's not about the actual underlying message, it's about one's reaction to it.  What's inclusive about wanting to see someone uncomfortable or put out?  That's not really the point of a tentpole superhero movie like most of the MCU films are.

Two EXCELLENT points (the parenthetical being one; and the overall point that if you enjoy putting people down and/or seeing people "put out," that says more about your character flaws than theirs, being the other).

[soupytwist]

Yeah, precisely nobody in this thread said that, so stop putting words in people's mouths to try to bait an argument.

Yeah I didn't express myself at my best there.  I wasn't meant to be accusing people in this thread of that at all, if anyone thought that I'll hold my hands up and apologize.

[bosk1]

  All good.

[lonestar]

I honestly feel the only really weak film was Eternals. Black Widow was a good nod to the character (I know I'm in the minority with my opinion of this one and I don't care ) , Shang Chi was quite good, 2nd best of the phase. Spidey was outstanding. Thor and MoM suffered from editing in my eyes, there was definitely a lot left on the editing floor from both of those, especially Thor. I feel like some people are expecting way too much out of a fucking comic book film. I don't think quality has dropped, at all. Casting has been outstanding (Yelena, America, all of Shang Chi were very well cast), special effects have been solid if a bit overdone, but again, it's a comic book brought to life. King brings up a poo t I'll reiterate, after the Infinity Saga, there was bound to be a drop, that's what happens after a climax.

[Stadler]

Yeah, precisely nobody in this thread said that, so stop putting words in people's mouths to try to bait an argument.

Yeah I didn't express myself at my best there.  I wasn't meant to be accusing people in this thread of that at all, if anyone thought that I'll hold my hands up and apologize.

We're good; it's a conversation among friends as I see it.   

[jingle.boy]

I honestly feel the only really weak film was Eternals. Black Widow was a good nod to the character (I know I'm in the minority with my opinion of this one and I don't care ) , Shang Chi was quite good, 2nd best of the phase. Spidey was outstanding. Thor and MoM suffered from editing in my eyes, there was definitely a lot left on the editing floor from both of those, especially Thor. I feel like some people are expecting way too much out of a fucking comic book film. I don't think quality has dropped, at all. Casting has been outstanding (Yelena, America, all of Shang Chi were very well cast), special effects have been solid if a bit overdone, but again, it's a comic book brought to life. King brings up a poo t I'll reiterate, after the Infinity Saga, there was bound to be a drop, that's what happens after a climax.

[lonestar]

 

[jingle.boy]

Every poo for the King is climactic I suppose, eh?   

[bosk1]

Well, when you get to a certain age...

[King Postwhore]

I have an end battle scene every morning.   So backwards.

[jingle.boy]

I have an end battle scene every morning.   So backwards.

No CGI needed!

[MinistroRaven]

1200 days until Avengers Secret Wars

[The Letter M]

1200 days until Avengers Secret Wars

Huh, I've got 1197 (1196 if you go by Thursday preview, but probably even less if you go by Hollywood premiere date), from July 28th.

Either way, it's weird to see that number and think that's how long it is til the sixth Avengers film. We are also 1008 days til Avengers: The Kang Dynasty, which has the same release date, May 2nd, as Iron Man, just 17 years apart. Of all the MCU films premiering in May, TKD will be the first to share May 2nd with Iron Man.

Going back to Avengers: Secret Wars, it'll be the first Avengers film not to premiere in the "Summer Movie Season", which typically begins in May, but Infinity War and Endgame pushed their dates back a week to late April, but are still considered to be part of (or in their case, begin) the summer film slate. It'll be interesting to see how well the film does in November considering the other MCU films that have debuted in November: Thor: The Dark World, Doctor Strange, and Thor: Ragnarok. Of course, the upcoming November films look to bring in a lot of fans with Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022), Blade (2023), Fantastic Four (2024), and of course Secret Wars (2025). Looks like Marvel Studios is trying to corner that early November release slate with some big films! I'm sure they expect them to do well through Thanksgiving weekend, but I'd have to go back and look at how DS1 and Ragnarok did a few years ago.

-Marc.

[King Postwhore]

My head hurts.  Who calculates the days to a movie so far out?!

[Lonk]

https://yourcountdown.to/avengers-secret-wars

[Stadler]

My head hurts.  Who calculates the days to a movie so far out?!

946 days until my next colonoscopy!!! 

[Adami]

I always have a specific countdown in my head. Luckily it's easy to remember.

0 days until I disagree with Stadler next.

[Stadler]

I always have a specific countdown in my head. Luckily it's easy to remember.

0 days until I disagree with Stadler next.

Life is better that way. 

[Adami]

Gonna spend the next few days doing a rewatch of the phase 4 movies minus Black Widow since I consider it (admittedly incorrectly) phase 3.

Tonight is Shang Chi. Let’s see how they are on a second watch.

[King Postwhore]

My head hurts.  Who calculates the days to a movie so far out?!

946 days until my next colonoscopy!!! 

Dammit! 

[Adami]

So Shang Chi was a bit different on the second run.

I still really love the characters, especially the dad, and thought he was one of our better villains in the MCU.

Initially I thought the whole 3rd act was blah. This time it seemed much shorter than it did the first time. Yes, when it becomes two dragons fighting I tend to zone out because who cares? But it wasn't quite as long as I remember it being, and the stuff around the dumb dragons was good. I do still wish the final act was more Chinese than English, but such is life.

I also had more issues with the overall story structure. The story itself was good, I thought, but the structure seemed to require so much exposition. I get that sometimes exposition is necessary, but this movie is just so full of exposition that it becomes a bit distraction. Rather they show and not tell so much.

That said, really enjoyed the movie and consider it a solid MCU movie. Definitely the 2nd best of phase 4 (after Spider-Man) movie wise. Going to watch Eternals probably tonight. Really hoping I like that more on the second watch, but I'm not hopeful.

[Lonk]

Looking forward to reading your thoughts. I felt the same way about Shang-Chi the second time I saw it regarding the third act.

[King Postwhore]

I honestly liked The Eternals.  I think I was just ready for new characters like Shang-Chi and The Eternals.

[Adami]

I honestly liked The Eternals.  I think I was just ready for new characters like Shang-Chi and The Eternals.

I was really excited for it. I really like the more modern iterations of them in the comics. Sadly the movie was just such a let down. The characters had little similarity to the comics, almost no personality other than the Kingo. And the deviants were turned from a legit interesting species to one of the most boring and cliche marvel villains we’ve ever seen. It had good moments, and I’m hoping the rewatch hits different.