Marvel Cinematic Universe thread v3 (no recent spoilers)

[lonestar]

And a matter of personal perspective. I've thoroughly enjoyed most of the current content, especially the expansion to the D+ shows. It's adventure, it's entertainment, it consistently brings me to that place of wonder only the MCU can.


And on a total side note, as much as I love Tessa Thompson as Valkyrie, after watching her in action on S4 of Westworld, they missed a dynamic villainous actress. Goddamn she's good.

[King Postwhore]

She's great as Creed's wife in the 2 movies as well. She is a strong actress 

[lonestar]

[soupytwist]

That is a ton of new stuff coming over the next few years. I'm excited to see where it goes, but t also looks a little overwhelming. I honestly think I'd be fine if the MCU took a year off after the next two Avengers films.

I've heard this sentiment before, but I don't understand it.

If the quality stays at the same general level, then it doesn't matter how much content they release.  Give me more.

The quality hasn't stayed at the same level though. There has been a noticeable drop in quality in phase 4. We also went from a couple movies a year to 6+ movies and shows. I enjoy MCU movies and shows a lot, but it's getting to be a lot. And unfortunately  you can't just skip a show or movie here or there. You kind of have to watch all of it to get the full effect.

Yeah, exactly.  I agree with Hef in principle.  More is more!  But it's the "if the quality says at the same general level" part that is the sticking point.  So far, it hasn't been close.  That is the issue.

I'd say Shang Chi was one of their better origin movies, Spiderman is top 5, Thor 4 is the 2nd best Thor film and Doctor Strange while messy was a lot of fun.  Eternals was bad and Black Widow was one of the lesser films - but overall the quality hasn't dropped much if at all compared to phase 1 & 2 at least.

[lonestar]

And with the addition of the D+ series, which are a part of phase 4 and are for me all good to outstanding, I'd say we're not suffering any lack of quality.

[jingle.boy]

And with the addition of the D+ series, which are a part of phase 4 and are for me all good to outstanding, I'd say we're not suffering any lack of quality.

Agreed.  The "worst" of Phase 4 is no worse than anything from 1 (IM2), 2 (Thor 2), or 3 (Ant-Man & Wasp).  But on the flipside, the best of Phase 4 doesn't exceed the best of phase 1-3.  If "the best" is now the bar, people will be routinely disappointed. We've just had a shit ton of movies and TV shows that fall in between the best and worst of anything from 1-3.

[hefdaddy42]

And with the addition of the D+ series, which are a part of phase 4 and are for me all good to outstanding, I'd say we're not suffering any lack of quality.

I agree.  Is every Phase 4 film as good as Infinity War or Endgame?  Of course not.  But I see no drop in quality.  Which is not to say there won't be individual films or shows that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't speak to the level of quality of the product, just individual tastes.

[jingle.boy]

And with the addition of the D+ series, which are a part of phase 4 and are for me all good to outstanding, I'd say we're not suffering any lack of quality.

I agree.  Is every Phase 4 film as good as Infinity War or Endgame?  Of course not.  But I see no drop in quality.  Which is not to say there won't be individual films or shows that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't speak to the level of quality of the product, just individual tastes.

TASTES^TM!!!!

[hefdaddy42]

And with the addition of the D+ series, which are a part of phase 4 and are for me all good to outstanding, I'd say we're not suffering any lack of quality.

I agree.  Is every Phase 4 film as good as Infinity War or Endgame?  Of course not.  But I see no drop in quality.  Which is not to say there won't be individual films or shows that might not be everyone's cup of tea, but that doesn't speak to the level of quality of the product, just individual tastes.

TASTES^TM!!!!

For example, bosky doesn't like the concept of the Multiverse, so that will automatically color his perceptions of the current slate of product.  But I like the concept, and the films have been just as entertaining as the ones before, IMO, and the shows have added a whole new twist.

[Adami]

What about people like me?

I love the multiverse. I love the characters. I just think the writing quality has been poor with Dr. Strange, Thor, Eternals, and the end of Shang Chi. If you call that tastes, then fine. But it also negates any form of criticism about anything.

[jingle.boy]

Adami vs Hef.  how is it possible one of them is wrong?

[Adami]

Adami vs Hef.  how is it possible one of them is wrong?

We will find out Saturday.

[lonestar]

Adami vs Hef.  how is it possible one of them is wrong?

It's like dividing by zero.

[hefdaddy42]

I mean, I don't know if that is taste, but it is definitely a subjective opinion on one aspect of the films.  I am talking about the overall product, not focusing on the writing or direction or any other single point.

[soupytwist]

Phase 4 ranking, because....

1. Spiderman.
2.  Shang Chi
3.  Doctor Strange 2
4.  Hawkeye.
5.  Loki.
6.  Thor 4
7.  Falcon and Soldier
8.  Wandavision
9.  Black Widow.
10.  Ms Marvel
11.  Moonknight.
12.  Eternals.
13.  What If..

[Adami]

I mean, I don't know if that is taste, but it is definitely a subjective opinion on one aspect of the films.  I am talking about the overall product, not focusing on the writing or direction or any other single point.

I get that. And I understand for people who simply don’t like or connect with the overall direction. But I think the writing (with exception) has not been great. And that has impacted the final product. The lowest cinema score ratings have mostly been phase 4 stuff. That can’t simply be attributed to people having different tastes. I think people are finding it hard to connect because the writing just hasn’t been up to snuff. Obviously some exceptions. And I am hopeful things will improve. The Wakanda Forever trailer was fantastic and I’m hopeful that will be a strong return to form.

[Stadler]

Adami vs Hef.  how is it possible one of them is wrong?

It's like dividing by zero.

HAHA

[King Postwhore]

Adami vs Hef.  how is it possible one of them is wrong?

We will find out Saturday.

Only when I slow dance with both of you will we have the answer.

[soupytwist]

I mean, I don't know if that is taste, but it is definitely a subjective opinion on one aspect of the films.  I am talking about the overall product, not focusing on the writing or direction or any other single point.

I get that. And I understand for people who simply don’t like or connect with the overall direction. But I think the writing (with exception) has not been great. And that has impacted the final product. The lowest cinema score ratings have mostly been phase 4 stuff. That can’t simply be attributed to people having different tastes. I think people are finding it hard to connect because the writing just hasn’t been up to snuff. Obviously some exceptions. And I am hopeful things will improve. The Wakanda Forever trailer was fantastic and I’m hopeful that will be a strong return to form.

I believe Doctor Stranges score is lower than normal because people haven't watched Wandavision are being confused by the whole thing.  That's the unfortunate side to the TV shows.

[Adami]

I mean, I don't know if that is taste, but it is definitely a subjective opinion on one aspect of the films.  I am talking about the overall product, not focusing on the writing or direction or any other single point.

I get that. And I understand for people who simply don’t like or connect with the overall direction. But I think the writing (with exception) has not been great. And that has impacted the final product. The lowest cinema score ratings have mostly been phase 4 stuff. That can’t simply be attributed to people having different tastes. I think people are finding it hard to connect because the writing just hasn’t been up to snuff. Obviously some exceptions. And I am hopeful things will improve. The Wakanda Forever trailer was fantastic and I’m hopeful that will be a strong return to form.

I believe Doctor Stranges score is lower than normal because people haven't watched Wandavision are being confused by the whole thing.  That's the unfortunate side to the TV shows.

No evidence of that. Thor, and Eternals also had low cinema scores.

And I had watched all of WandaVision. While I wasn’t confused plot wise, I did think her entire arc was poorly written if brilliantly acted.

[bosk1]

Yeah, lots of really strange arguments being thrown out there to try to defend the MCU.  But for me, none of those apply.  It all just comes back to poor writing. 

[The Letter M]

As someone who has been on-board with the MCU since practically Day 1 (with the release of Iron Man in 2008), I go into each new film (and now TV show) with enthusiasm and a willingness to enjoy each project for what they are, but afterwards, I dive deeper and become more discerning. I think the whole culture of reviews/critics/scores has tainted a lot of viewers'/fans' opinions on things and they go in expecting things to be one way and then are upset when they aren't delivered what they thought the product would be.

For the most part, as far as Phase 4 goes, I've enjoyed most of it, but I also do recognize there have been writing faults and issues for many projects, i.e., there are things that could have been done better. Black Widow just felt like it was "too little, too late"; Shang-Chi was fairly good but it suffered from 3rd-Act-Syndrome; Eternals would've been better as a more fleshed-out 6-episode series; Spider-Man was probably as close to MCU greatest as they could get, but I feel like a lot of that film is driven by nostalgia; Doctor Strange ITMOM has a great premise, but treats its characters poorly; and Thor LAT felt like it was too chopped up (from it's 4-hour cut) to be a truly coherent film.

The TV shows, IMO, fared a bit better in terms of consistency within each show - WandaVision was exploratory and unique, though it also suffered from 3rd-Act-Syndrome with its final episode; The Falcon & The Winter Soldier was definitely rewritten over the beginning of the pandemic and felt like it had a lot of its original story gutted or changed; Loki was probably one of the better written shows over-all, even with the exposition-filled final episode, though Majors' acting really helped sell it; What If? did what it set out to do, but each episode was hit-or-miss; Hawkeye was a fun action spectacle but it felt like some characters were under-written and under-utilized; Moon Knight has a great premise and some great execution but a few choices felt odd here and there; and Ms. Marvel, like Loki, is probably one of the better written Disney+ MCU shows so far, very good character acting from most of the cast, though the undercooked villains felt cliche.

But I understand why fans feel Phase 4 has felt less-than-stellar, between the amount of content and how mid-to-good that content has been. If there had been less content, spread out over more time, it wouldnt' feel as sub-par, especially following a mostly-great Phase 3 (where nearly everything from Civil War to Endgame felt fresh and fun and exciting).

Going forward, with 12 projects in Phase 5 (in just about a year and a half's time) and 11 projects in Phase 6 (in less than 14 months), they aren't slowing down anytime soon, or producing any less. Let's just hope the quality of the product improves as we head towards the finish line of this Multiverse Saga.

-Marc.

[faizoff]

The TV shows, IMO, fared a bit better in terms of consistency within each show - WandaVision was exploratory and unique, though it also suffered from 3rd-Act-Syndrome with its final episode; The Falcon & The Winter Soldier was definitely rewritten over the beginning of the pandemic and felt like it had a lot of its original story gutted or changed; Loki was probably one of the better written shows over-all, even with the exposition-filled final episode, though Majors' acting really helped sell it; What If? did what it set out to do, but each episode was hit-or-miss; Hawkeye was a fun action spectacle but it felt like some characters were under-written and under-utilized; Moon Knight has a great premise and some great execution but a few choices felt odd here and there; and Ms. Marvel, like Loki, is probably one of the better written Disney+ MCU shows so far, very good character acting from most of the cast, though the undercooked villains felt cliche.

-Marc.

This is very similar to my take on the TV shows though I really liked What If, I think they were interesting settings for the Marvel characters in alternate roles. All in all the TV series hasn't completely impressed me, I mean I enjoyed them, they are fun to watch. But if I compare them to The Boys or Peacemaker, it really pales (story writing wise).


I actually don't mind all the 3rd acts in the phase 4 movies so far. I do get why it's a turn off for many but I found them enjoyable. The Eternals really had the setup to be so much more but a 2 hour movie wasn't going to do justice to it. Haven't seen the new Thor yet and will be going in with tempered expectations.

[jingle.boy]

I think that basically an entire interwebz industry designed to pick apart and nit-pick every little flaw plays a part - all the reviewers that have more minutes of YT videos dedicated to analyzing every detail than the runtime of the shows/movies, along with the HISHE / Pitch Meeting style of channels as well.  There's no shortage of people willing to shit on anything.

[bosk1]

I think that basically an entire interwebz industry designed to pick apart and nit-pick every little flaw plays a part - all the reviewers that have more minutes of YT videos dedicated to analyzing every detail than the runtime of the shows/movies, along with the HISHE / Pitch Meeting style of channels as well.  There's no shortage of people willing to shit on anything.

While that's certainly true, that has nothing at all to do with what Adami and I have repeatedly posted, oftentimes immediately after viewing each of the films and without seeing those analysis videos.  (I do regularly watch a few channels that do analysis, but I tend to focus on ones that are, for the most part, "fan" channels that focus much more on the positive side, even when being critical.  And HISHE and Pitch Meeting don't really fall into the style you are describing.  Although those are "critical," they are fan channels that are largely positive on the films and are just poking fun.) 

What we both have voiced are problems with weak writing.  Criticize earlier films like Hulk, IM2, Thor2, or Captain Marvel for being weak efforts, and I can't really argue with that.  But each of them set up a premise and stuck with it without undermining it or contradicting something else (either in the film or the MCU as a whole).  Yeah, Dark Elves wanting to get the ether to plunge the universe into darkness because that's what their species needed in order to survive was campy, silly, and shallow.  But the film stayed consistent, both internally, and with the MCU as a whole, and set up some really important things in the Infinity Saga as a whole, as well as in the relationship dynamics between Thor and Loki, Thor and Frigga, Loki and Frigga, Thor and Jane, etc.  And most importantly, whether one liked the film or thought it was a weak effort, there were never weak writing moments that took a lot of viewers out of the moment and made them say, "Wait...why is that happening?  Based on what we've seen, that really shouldn't be going on right now." 

Phase 4 (film-wise, not D+ shows) has just been lazy and sloppy in that regard.  Again, these just feel like typical, mindless summer blockbusters rather than "events."  The Marvel logo, for the first three phases used to evoke feelings of "While this may be a 'superhero movie,' it isn't just a 'superhero movie.'  There is depth and care taken that you won't find in anything previously done in this genre because we truly care about this content and are presenting it to fans who truly care about these stories."  Now, the Marvel logo, the "look how woke we are" moments, and over-the-top awesome special effects (not that they weren't over-the-top awesome before) are just a distraction from poorly written films. 

[Stadler]

Yeah, lots of really strange arguments being thrown out there to try to defend the MCU.  But for me, none of those apply.  It all just comes back to poor writing.

As long as they get their crap together for the Fantastic Four, I'm good.  BY FAR my favorite Marvel franchise (though I guess it's not THAT far ahead of Dr. Strange).  The only Marvel book I ever subscribed to, or collected.  I LOVED the F4.

[lonestar]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

[Lonk]

Yeah, lots of really strange arguments being thrown out there to try to defend the MCU.  But for me, none of those apply.  It all just comes back to poor writing.

As long as they get their crap together for the Fantastic Four, I'm good.  BY FAR my favorite Marvel franchise (though I guess it's not THAT far ahead of Dr. Strange).  The only Marvel book I ever subscribed to, or collected.  I LOVED the F4.

Third time is the charm, right?

[soupytwist]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agree 100%

[Stadler]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agree 100%

How inclusive!  .   

(It's a pointed comment, but I really am just poking fun.)

[The Letter M]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agreed. Some folks are so easily triggered these days by anything that isn't about white guys shooting guns. But I digress. Whatever anyone thinks is "woke" I see as beautiful inclusion and diversity. Seeing Tenoch Huerta excited to be on stage and express that excitement in English AND Spanish was amazing and I'm happy that more diverse actors are being cast in these roles. I've seen so many different kinds of people so happy to meet heroes who represent them, like deaf folks meeting Lauren Ridloff (Eternals' Makkari), crying tears of joy to finally see a big screen hero who is like them. And recently, I've seen so many Mexican and Central American descendants so proud to see Namor played by Tenoch.

It's a beautiful thing, I tell ya, and the Marvel Comics have been doing this for decades. Marvel Studios just going to keep expanding and diversifying in the years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Fantastic Four aren't white, or if Professor X and/or Magneto end up being black. As long as the stories fit them, and they act their butts off, I'll be happy to see them on screen in the MCU!

-Marc.

[soupytwist]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agree 100%

How inclusive!  .   

(It's a pointed comment, but I really am just poking fun.)

Join us for a big inclusive hug! 🤗

[jingle.boy]

I dig the woke moments tbh, and am even digging them more as they double down on them. Watching a bunch of  keyboard warriors get all butt hurt over two entities made of rocks holding hands is absolutely hysterical.

Agreed. Some folks are so easily triggered these days by anything that isn't about white guys shooting guns. But I digress. Whatever anyone thinks is "woke" I see as beautiful inclusion and diversity. Seeing Tenoch Huerta excited to be on stage and express that excitement in English AND Spanish was amazing and I'm happy that more diverse actors are being cast in these roles. I've seen so many different kinds of people so happy to meet heroes who represent them, like deaf folks meeting Lauren Ridloff (Eternals' Makkari), crying tears of joy to finally see a big screen hero who is like them. And recently, I've seen so many Mexican and Central American descendants so proud to see Namor played by Tenoch.

It's a beautiful thing, I tell ya, and the Marvel Comics have been doing this for decades. Marvel Studios just going to keep expanding and diversifying in the years to come. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the Fantastic Four aren't white, or if Professor X and/or Magneto end up being black. As long as the stories fit them, and they act their butts off, I'll be happy to see them on screen in the MCU!

-Marc.

And Bingo was his name!  Like Heimdall played by Idris Ilba wasn't "woke"?  I remember some (shallow) people losing their shit back then.  None of this is new.

[Stadler]

So I made the joke, but a more serious response appears in order.   Marvel has been ahead of this curve for a long time, and that's admirable.  One of the things I like about Lee, Kirby, Ditka, et al. is their willingness to push boundaries in that way.  As someone who respects (and agrees with) the underlying sentiment, but sometimes has problems with the execution, though, the pointing fingers at those that aren't all in isn't necessary.  There are moments where it's natural and organic, and works.  But there are moments in the MCU where it's ham-fisted, and the message isn't one of love and diversity, but seems to be more virtue signaling or adversarial. 

I don't think its necessarily true that it's perfectly done in all cases, and if you're not okay with that then "Suck it, Trebek".

[The Letter M]

So I made the joke, but a more serious response appears in order.   Marvel has been ahead of this curve for a long time, and that's admirable.  One of the things I like about Lee, Kirby, Ditka, et al. is their willingness to push boundaries in that way.  As someone who respects (and agrees with) the underlying sentiment, but sometimes has problems with the execution, though, the pointing fingers at those that aren't all in isn't necessary.  There are moments where it's natural and organic, and works.  But there are moments in the MCU where it's ham-fisted, and the message isn't one of love and diversity, but seems to be more virtue signaling or adversarial. 

I don't think its necessarily true that it's perfectly done in all cases, and if you're not okay with that then "Suck it, Trebek".

Well I will also admit that sometimes these inclusions for diversity do seem like "diversity for diversity's sake" and can feel very forced, but I feel like it's better to try than not try at all. Some folks will find pride and happiness in their representation, and for the chance at that, I don't mind a bit of odd writing or corniness in my films about fictional super heroes with outlandish powers and costumes.

-Marc.