Marvel Cinematic Universe thread v3 (no recent spoilers)

[jammindude]

So....how about that MODOK?

No one ever answered my question as to whether or not his character in the movie was true to the comic version

[jammindude]

Yeah, LGBTQ+ is definitely a normal part of the human experience, and has been for millennia. Maybe it's time to ditch archaic religious ideals that only serve to separate us and teach us to hate? Jesus would've been totally cool with America's parents being gay, it's his fan base that has it totally wrong.

We are truly getting into P/R territory here, but this is just flat out provably false.

Which part? That there have been gay people for millenia? Definitely fact. That Jesus would've been cool with it? I think that was his prime directive was to love each other, right?

I am not going to continue this discussion in this thread because I don’t want it to get blocked nor do I want either you or me to get a vacation for pushing PR subjects outside of PR

[lonestar]

So....how about that MODOK?

No one ever answered my question as to whether or not his character in the movie was true to the comic version

It wasn't. In the comics he was a scientists that did experiments on himself to make him that way I do believe. Definitely wasn't Darren Cross though.

[Adami]

So....how about that MODOK?

No one ever answered my question as to whether or not his character in the movie was true to the comic version

Sorry about that!

Physically, he looks almost identical to the comics when his mask is down. Though that’s just what his face looks like in the comics. He isn’t Darren. He isn’t in the quantum realm. He is a crazy scientist. I dunno his specific origin but he is a very goofy character that no one really takes seriously. So all in all, it was good enough. None of the changes made him more goofy or anything.

[hefdaddy42]

FFS

[The Letter M]

So....how about that MODOK?

No recent spoilers! 

-Marc.

[The Realm]

Posting here as it is related to some of the Marvel superhero fatigue discussions above but looks like an alarming box office drop for Antman. Could be the largest second week fall of all time.

My overall take is that as well as the fatigue factor I am not sure the casual fan really fully buys into the multiverse stuff and the multiple versions of characters. This overall plot point and story feels hard to connect with.

[lonestar]

Posting here as it is related to some of the Marvel superhero fatigue discussions above but looks like an alarming box office drop for Antman. Could be the largest second week fall of all time.

My overall take is that as well as the fatigue factor I am not sure the casual fan really fully buys into the multiverse stuff and the multiple versions of characters. This overall plot point and story feels hard to connect with.

Can't argue with any points here. Definitely not a story that plays to the casual fan for sure.

[Zook]

It could also be that the best characters have been written out of the MCU. Hopefully things pick up again once the X-Men start showing up.

[The Realm]

Yes good point on the characters and it could be that the X-Men or an awesome Fantastic 4 movie is needed to bring back the excitement.

[bosk1]

Bosk1, you live in an age where yiu will see more and more LBGTQ+ driven stories.   While I may not understand it because I'm hardwired to be straight, I try to keep an open mind for others. I don't look at it as propaganda, I look at it as something now in the open.

Oh, absolutely.  I get it, Joe.  It's like a lot of stuff.  Tony being a drunk and sexual reprobate in IM1 and IM2 lost points for me too, for example.  Just the age we live in.  I understand.  And "propaganda" probably isn't the right word, either.  I know that was the word I used, but that wasn't really a good word choice.  Just not sure what is.  With America, for instance, as I think it was RJ that pointed out, it's true to the source material.  But it's been a oft-beaten drum for a little while, in contexts where there really isn't any point to it other than seemingly to "normalize" it.  Which, again, I'm not a fan of.  Doesn't keep it from being a good movie though.  But as with other things I don't like, if you put something I don't like in a film, it's going to be a net negative, not a net positive. 

“Sin”. It’s 2023 ffs, not 1823. Perhaps P/R commentary that hardcore could stay in P/R?

Nothing "hardcore" about someone saying why they don't like a movie in a movie thread.  Beyond that, yeah, we should take further discussion to P/R.  But keeping it limited to things along the lines of "I don't like X about this movie," and X being a P/R-related reason, is fine.  Otherwise, pretty much anything tangentially P/R related would be off limits in the general forum.  We don't ban discussion of Hallowed Be Thy Name, For the Greater Good of God, or Run To the Hills from the Iron Maiden thread because those songs have religious or political themes. 

But to that point, I won't respond directly to some of the other posts that follow, because I think that would take us over that fuzzy line.  To JD's point, RJ is 100% mistaken about what Jesus is "cool with," but that's a discussion for P/R if you want to have it.  Let's take it there if anyone wants to further discuss.  Now let's not get too distracted from the MCU discussion.

[bosk1]

Posting here as it is related to some of the Marvel superhero fatigue discussions above but looks like an alarming box office drop for Antman. Could be the largest second week fall of all time.

My overall take is that as well as the fatigue factor I am not sure the casual fan really fully buys into the multiverse stuff and the multiple versions of characters. This overall plot point and story feels hard to connect with.

Can't argue with any points here. Definitely not a story that plays to the casual fan for sure.

Yeah, I think it's kind of hard for the more casual fan to wrap their head around where the MCU is going.  I wouldn't say that, in and of itself, is necessarily a bad thing.  But I think it's one more factor that could be contributing to a decline in popularity.  To Zook's/Realm's point, maybe bringing in some more "marquee" characters will help bring folks back.  But I seriously think it is going to depend heavily on the writing as well.  I've been beating the drum about the writing for awhile now in phase 4.  And, again, I know and I expect that there will be a dropoff from the Infinity Saga.  I'm not holding the current MCU to quite that standard.  But there's been an overall dropoff in quality, and it's noticeable, and I'm not the only one to notice.  Just tell good stories and write them well, and people will come.

[Stadler]

Posting here as it is related to some of the Marvel superhero fatigue discussions above but looks like an alarming box office drop for Antman. Could be the largest second week fall of all time.

My overall take is that as well as the fatigue factor I am not sure the casual fan really fully buys into the multiverse stuff and the multiple versions of characters. This overall plot point and story feels hard to connect with.

Can't argue with any points here. Definitely not a story that plays to the casual fan for sure.

Yeah, I think it's kind of hard for the more casual fan to wrap their head around where the MCU is going.  I wouldn't say that, in and of itself, is necessarily a bad thing.  But I think it's one more factor that could be contributing to a decline in popularity.  To Zook's/Realm's point, maybe bringing in some more "marquee" characters will help bring folks back.  But I seriously think it is going to depend heavily on the writing as well.  I've been beating the drum about the writing for awhile now in phase 4.  And, again, I know and I expect that there will be a dropoff from the Infinity Saga.  I'm not holding the current MCU to quite that standard.  But there's been an overall dropoff in quality, and it's noticeable, and I'm not the only one to notice.  Just tell good stories and write them well, and people will come.

I think people - not you, not here, but generally - forget how big a star Robert Downey, Jr. is, or Mark Ruffalo.  Some of the characters and actors now just aren't at the level of Iron Man, Downey, The Hulk, and Ruffalo (just to name a few). I know my wife and daughter (less so) sort of start to zone out with some of the lesser characters and more character actors.   In contrast, the room goes quiet whenever Thor comes on the screen! 

[jingle.boy]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

[jammindude]

Ya. Ruffalo was a complete nobody before Hulk turned him into a massive star.

RDJ, Benedict, and Scar Jo were only MCU actors I had heard of before the MCU.

[King Postwhore]

I disagree. He was in a shit ton of films before he became the Hulk. I bet you guys saw him and didn't recognize him.

[bosk1]

I just looked at his filmography, and I don't know a single one of the films listed before he appeared in Avengers.  That said, he was in a LOT of stuff, so he was definitely a prolific actor, and it's just that what he did never crossed my table specifically. 

But in any case, the MCU has a pretty wide variety of those who had thriving careers before Marvel, and those whose careers took off because of Marvel.

[Stadler]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

Seriously?  "Gaslighting"?   WTF.

[Stadler]

I disagree. He was in a shit ton of films before he became the Hulk. I bet you guys saw him and didn't recognize him.

This; I was at the Genesis board when it was still active, and granted, the board was half female, but it was "Mark Ruffalo this" and "Mark Ruffalo that".   He may not have been RD,J big, but he was a star. 

[hefdaddy42]

Ruffalo was definitely big before Marvel.  That was a big "get" for them at the time.

[Orbert]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

I think you're letting your personal experience cloud your perception of mainstream, just as I have, I suppose.  I grew up with Iron Man and Thor.  I knew who Spider-Man was but only knew the Fantastic Four from the animated Saturday-morning TV show, and I had no idea who X-Men were until the movies.

[Stadler]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

I think you're letting your personal experience cloud your perception of mainstream, just as I have, I suppose.  I grew up with Iron Man and Thor.  I knew who Spider-Man was but only knew the Fantastic Four from the animated Saturday-morning TV show, and I had no idea who X-Men were until the movies.

I always thought I was sort of out of the mainstream in loving the Fantastic Four (by far my favorite Marvel series).  I was a DC guy, and while the DC big three were Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, I always perceived the Marvel big three as Iron Man, Hulk and Thor.  Spider-Man may be in there too; I know he had a daily run in the Daily News in New York, but I don't recall him being cross-pollinated like the other three were.   

[Adami]

I have no idea how popular each character was, but Iron Man was definitely not an unknown by any stretch and Thor was.....you know....Thor. Whether you knew Marvel's version or not, everyone knows Thor.

Also I think X-Men were only known on a pretty superficial level. People loved Wolverine with all the animated shows and stuff, but I doubt they could have named the original X-Men or much about them until the movies came out.

[Orbert]

See, that's what I'm saying.  There were a lot of "pockets", certain geographic areas perhaps, where certain characters were more well-known than others.  I had a good friend growing up who collected Iron Man, so I knew Iron Man and I guess I assumed everyone else did.  He also had Spider-Man and certain issues of a lot of others, including Thor.  I remember Thor because he was a weird blend of superhero and Norse mythology.

[jingle.boy]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

Seriously?  "Gaslighting"?   WTF.

You know, after I typed it, I thought I should go back and rephrase it to something along the lines of "revisionist history".  I guess I just don't use 'gaslight' in the way that psychologists use vis-a-vis manipulation and emotional abuse.  So, my apologies for using it not in entirely the right/appropriate context.  I meant to imply that IM being a big name back in 2008 wasn't the way things were, and Robert Downey was a borderline pariah in Hollywood at the time.  Going with him and Iron Man were pretty big risks on the part of the studio. 

Anyone who doesn't remember that, Feige will remind you - https://www.gamesradar.com/kevin-feige-says-casting-robert-downey-jr-for-iron-man-was-the-biggest-risk-and-the-most-important-thing/

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not revise history anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

I think you're letting your personal experience cloud your perception of mainstream, just as I have, I suppose.  I grew up with Iron Man and Thor.  I knew who Spider-Man was but only knew the Fantastic Four from the animated Saturday-morning TV show, and I had no idea who X-Men were until the movies.

I'll point out that the x-men had about a decade's worth of cartoon series' under their belt.  Iron Man and Thor did not.  Thor was my fave comic book hero - I sure as hell knew him from the 80s and 90s.  But as for mainstream exposure, x-men had way more than any of the Avengers.

To Bob's point... I guess it's a regional thing maybe?

[Orbert]

Or just whatever you happened to be exposed to.  I maybe remember the X-men TV show, but I never watched it.  Spider-Man of course had a show with that catchy theme song (which is now stuck in your head, ha!) but I guess I wasn't thinking specifically about TV shows as an indication of mainstream popularity.  I probably shoud, since it's probably the indicator that most people use.  Just not me.  I think of comic book characters and their relative popularity in terms of the ones I knew, and that was exposure to the comic books themselves.

[Stadler]

I'd never heard of Mark Ruffalo before he was Banner/The Hulk.  I'd say that Benedict Cumberbatch is a pretty big star; Johansson was a pretty big name before IM2, and same with Larsen.   Additionally Marvel has made stars out of people - Hemsworth, Holland, Bosman, Evans... all of whom are (were) massive way beyond any fame they had pre-MCU.

Also, IM was a B-list hero in the mainstream, so leading with him was a fairly large risk.  Let's not gaslight anyone by suggesting IM and Thor were household names the way that FF, Spiderman, and X-Men were.

Seriously?  "Gaslighting"?   WTF.

You know, after I typed it, I thought I should go back and rephrase it to something along the lines of "revisionist history".  I guess I just don't use 'gaslight' in the way that psychologists use vis-a-vis manipulation and emotional abuse.  So, my apologies for using it not in entirely the right/appropriate context.  I meant to imply that IM being a big name back in 2008 wasn't the way things were, and Robert Downey was a borderline pariah in Hollywood at the time.  Going with him and Iron Man were pretty big risks on the part of the studio. 

Anyone who doesn't remember that, Feige will remind you - https://www.gamesradar.com/kevin-feige-says-casting-robert-downey-jr-for-iron-man-was-the-biggest-risk-and-the-most-important-thing/

To be fair, I forgot about Robert's "troubles" at the time. 

[hefdaddy42]

The big names in popularity at the time, both among comic book readers and especially the general public, were Spider-Man and the X-Men.  Not even close.

The first Iron Man film was a HUGE risk.  DC always kept a lid on their biggest characters for films, since they were owned by an entertainment company (Warner Brothers), but Marvel had farmed out the rights to their biggest properties (Spidey, the X-Men, and even the Fantastic Four) to other studios.  Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and the Hulk weren't unknown, but they were not in the same league as those others in the mind of the general public.  And of those, only Spider-Man could be considered to be in the same league as the biggest hitters from DC (Superman and Batman).

[Dream Team]

In my own personal opinion, where Marvel might be failing a little at the moment is failing to give the public what they want. Here's what I mean. At the end of the Infinity Saga we lost a bunch of hugely popular beloved characters, never to be seen again in many cases. Obviously these need to be replaced, but I question a little how Feige has gone about it. There's been a plethora of new characters thrown at us with varying degrees of success (some hugely UNsuccessful). But what Feige needs to do is keeping running with the characters that already ARE popular.

It's not just me; Wanda is one of the, if not THE most, popular character right now thanks in a large part to WandaVision. Lizzie is ready to go with any new Wanda projects but Feige has made the mistake of not striking while the iron's hot with her character. There still is apparently nothing definite.

Then there's Banner/Hulk, still a very well-liked and popular character yet all he's had since 2019 is a couple cameos in She-Hulk. Seriously??? The Ruffalo/Hemsworth chemistry was DYNAMITE in Ragnarok, they really need to go back to that well instead of Thor having a threesome with his hammer and axe. Ruffalo and Hemsworth are ready to go, they haven't quit Marvel.

Obviously Downey and Evans and Johansson are gone for good, I get that, but Fiege probably needs to get a handle on what has made certain characters so popular instead of throwing a million at us per year. My 2 cents.

[jingle.boy]

I think we can be assured that Hemsworth is gone for good as well now.  I just finished up his Nat Geo documentary series Limitless.  Really good stuff, and totally understandable why he's pausing (ending??) his acting career.

[hefdaddy42]

I think we can be assured that Hemsworth is gone for good as well now.  I just finished up his Nat Geo documentary series Limitless.  Really good stuff, and totally understandable why he's pausing (ending??) his acting career.

I don't think he's gone at all.  At least, not voluntarily.

We won't see another Thor solo film any time soon, if ever, but Thor isn't gone from the MCU.  At the very least, he will show up for Secret Wars.

[jingle.boy]

I think we can be assured that Hemsworth is gone for good as well now.  I just finished up his Nat Geo documentary series Limitless.  Really good stuff, and totally understandable why he's pausing (ending??) his acting career.

I don't think he's gone at all.  At least, not voluntarily.

We won't see another Thor solo film any time soon, if ever, but Thor isn't gone from the MCU.  At the very least, he will show up for Secret Wars.

Perhaps.  That's still a couple years away.  Lots can change.  I certainly hope he's back.

[bosk1]

Yeah, even though L&T left his character open, I seem to recall reading somewhere awhile back that he considers himself (and the character) basically done.  That doesn't mean for sure than that is 100% final, but I don't see him likely doing much more than maybe cameo or supporting appearances if that is true.  And that's fine.  I don't think we need another Thor movie.  Not sure how I feel about the character as a whole anymore.

Dream Team still makes great points though, even if the specifics aren't necessarily a reality due to a lot of factors.  Wanda seems to me to be the biggest issue.  I think she was mishandled a bit in Strange II.  And even though we assume she is not dead, with how they left her character, and how there don't seem to be any plans to bring her back anytime soon, I agree that there is a missed opportunity here.  Even if she doesn't fit "the plan" for the MCU in the immediate future, it shouldn't have been hard to work her back in once it became clear how popular she is and how much the fanbase seems to be having a harder time latching onto a lot of the new characters.  It's a shame Strange II didn't do things a bit differently and that Marvel didn't alter its plans to find a way to bring her back around in the near future.  Again, seems like a missed opportunity.

[The Letter M]

I think we can be assured that Hemsworth is gone for good as well now.  I just finished up his Nat Geo documentary series Limitless.  Really good stuff, and totally understandable why he's pausing (ending??) his acting career.

I think we could probably count on him reprising his role as Thor in one or both of the upcoming Avengers films, as one of the remaining six OG Avengers left in the MCU 616. Him, Hulk, and Hawkeye are all that's left active out of the first six, so as a way to carry on and pass the torch to the next team, I think Thor will be around. Captain Marvel will probably take his place as the team's cosmic heavy-hitter, but I would love to see both of them wreck things up together in The Kang Dynasty and Secret Wars.

The big names in popularity at the time, both among comic book readers and especially the general public, were Spider-Man and the X-Men.  Not even close.

The first Iron Man film was a HUGE risk.  DC always kept a lid on their biggest characters for films, since they were owned by an entertainment company (Warner Brothers), but Marvel had farmed out the rights to their biggest properties (Spidey, the X-Men, and even the Fantastic Four) to other studios.  Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and the Hulk weren't unknown, but they were not in the same league as those others in the mind of the general public.  And of those, only Spider-Man could be considered to be in the same league as the biggest hitters from DC (Superman and Batman).

This is pretty accurate from what I recall of the comics and film industry at the time. The budding Marvel Studios knew that Iron Man was a fairly big risk, and even the trades and media reported it as such. The common layman didn't know Iron Man, but of course comics fans did, even those who had only a passing knowledge of Tony Stark and his armored Avenger alter-ego, but as hef said, most of the general public would probably only be able to pick out Spider-Man, the X-Men, and maybe the Fantastic Four as Marvel characters, all of which had their film rights sold off to other studios in the late 90s because Marvel declared bankruptcy after the bubble burst in the 90's comic boom. There are some great video essays around YouTube that cover this era and why Marvel did what they did, what happened to the company and how it evolved into making Marvel Studios the financial, commercial, and pop-cultural juggernaut it is today.

As for actors being brought into the MCU, it definitely has been a mix of well-knowns and unknowns over the years. RDJ, Evans, Johannsson, and Ruffalo were all fairly well-known by the time they entered the MCU, but the likes of Hemsworth, Hiddleston, and others were relatively unknown when cast. We can thank Sarah Haley Finn for being the casting director for most of the MCU, bringing in these stars from whatever point in their career and, for the most part, nailing the casting choices for these characters. She definitely doesn't get enough credit for shaping the MCU.

-Marc.

[ErHaO]

I gotta say I think the quality of this phase in terms of films is just not there. The only one I love is Spidey. After that comes... The Eternals? (for me, I thought it was entertaining). I know it is very flawed, but unlike most of the other films, I thought it was an even, consistent film with the least annoying/dissapointing moments. Thor has great potential and cool moments, but it was super messy and rushed. Strange and Black Widow were bad and I haven't finished Black Panther, but I found the everything following the nice intro/sendoff to be very boring. Shang Chi I admit was a nice film, but it was one of those very typical origin stories that I have reached my dose of throughout the years.

Looking at Ant Man and how it is performing, I think the MCU needs a course correct, a banger of a film, to correct it. This is getting closer to DCEU levels, which is not good.

Furthermore, films like Dune, Avatar, and Maverick have shown what blockbusters can look like when time is put into their creation. Some of the latest films do not look good in my opinion.

In my opinion one of the key things that made the MCU phases 1-3 so good was the character development and the surprisingly coherent and consistent writing/buildup. Even the stinkers, such as Thor 1 to 2, had a solid arc for Thor and Loki, that ultimately was used very well. It is really missing in this phase.