Author Topic: Falcon and Winter Soldier Official Thread - How they gonna use that power?  (Read 2588 times)

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Online jingle.boy

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Nice looking spot for tomorrow's episode - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3_-XYOYQQA
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Holy shit what a beginning for that episode! This was by far the best and favorite episode so far. Longest too, I love Sam and Bucky's character development in the series and this episode was the epitome.

Should be and excellent showdown next week for the finale!

Also the first mid credits scene of the series.
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Offline lordxizor

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Another nice episode. Seems like there should be more than one episode left.

One observation I made watching this morning, is that the extended hand-to-hand combat sequences do nothing for me. We've seen hundreds of them at this point in MCU movies/shows. I guess there have to be fights in super hero stories, but to me it's just getting old.

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I get that sentiment, but if they're done well I don't have any complaints. I've enjoyed all the ones shown so far in the series.
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Offline cfmoran13

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Haven't watched Episode 5 yet.  Really hoping they bring back Isaiah Bradley either in this show or one of his own later based on his limited series from 2003, 'Truth: Red, White & Black'.  Russell really is doing a great job of making me hate Walker.  I didn't like him when they first introduced the character.  And, I certainly don't like him after he quickly goes down the dark path into the character he becomes in the comics.  I can't wait to watch Episode 5 this weekend and see how things escalate.

Offline Adami

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Haven't watched Episode 5 yet.  Really hoping they bring back Isaiah Bradley either in this show or one of his own later based on his limited series from 2003, 'Truth: Red, White & Black'.  Russell really is doing a great job of making me hate Walker.  I didn't like him when they first introduced the character.  And, I certainly don't like him after he quickly goes down the dark path into the character he becomes in the comics.  I can't wait to watch Episode 5 this weekend and see how things escalate.

You’ll like episode 5.
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Offline lordxizor

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I get that sentiment, but if they're done well I don't have any complaints. I've enjoyed all the ones shown so far in the series.
Most of them are done well. They're all a little longer than my attention span can handle these days. At least there's not a ton of cgi involved with this.shkw which helps ground the scenes in reality more.

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Absolutely outstanding episode.

Offline bosk1

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Wow.  Best episode so far.  To me, this series was a bit clunky through the first three (and there are specific reasons for that).  But 4 was really good, and 5 was great.  I really thought they were going to kill Sara at the end.  It really seemed like they were foreshadowing it when Sam and Bucky mentioned that Carli won't stop, and then next scene, Sara is on the dock with Sam.  Glad it didn't end that way (although it could be coming.
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Online jingle.boy

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The intro was ; the rest of the episode was better.  The realism and character development is what is making this series.

Really looking forward for the suit reveal
Oh, and JLD's role as the anti-Fury.  That sprouts yet another limb for the MCU Tree of Life
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Online faizoff

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I kinda think the finale ended as the typical Marvel movie ending. I was at least expecting it to somewhat deviate but mostly closed loops and introduced some new threads. Will have to stew on this a bit.
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Online The Letter M

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I thought the finale was pretty good - there were some great moments involving Sam. I was kind of underwhelmed by one reveal, but the post-credits scene kind of alleviated those feelings a bit, but now I have even more questions regarding that.

My only gripe was that I wish the finale had been a bit longer and we had gotten a bit more screen time for some characters, but it is what it is. I wonder if they're planning a second season? Seems like they've left enough pieces on the board for them to set up another run, especially if some of these characters and plot points can't work into any upcoming films (and looking at the slate of films for the next 2-3 years, it doesn't seem like it).

And yeah, I've been purposely vague in my thoughts here because I don't want to give out too many spoilers just yet, but once a few more folks in here watch it, I'll be sure to discuss things a bit more openly. Compared to WandaVision, I think this finale was just as good, and maybe a bit better in terms of wrapping (some) things up, but I'll say it didn't hit me as hard emotionally (except for a couple of Sam-related moments, but those emotions were for different reasons). Still, definitely a great way to end the season!

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Solid finish for sure... Great emotional scenes with Bucky's amends and with the 'black man carrying the stars and stripea' speech, some really good writing, and Mackie actually pulled it off for someone who is not the greatest of emotional actors in my personal opinion.

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Solid finish for sure... Great emotional scenes with Bucky's amends and with the 'black man carrying the stars and stripea' speech, some really good writing, and Mackie actually pulled it off for someone who is not the greatest of emotional actors in my personal opinion.

Agreed with the bold above. I like him as an actor but he's not known for his acting chops. He has some charisma and 'looks' great.....but he did a fine job with the speech at the end.

Fun series, lots of little open ended avenues to explore in the future as well.





On a side note....after watching Sebastian Stan in these episodes the resemblance to a young Mark Hammill is indeed there. I'd 100% buy in on him being Luke Skywalker if they were to try and pull that off. In fact, I''m a little bummed they didn't use him in the Finale of S2 to get that ball rolling.
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Online lonestar

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Yeah, he's a solid actiin actor for sure... But the line blurs really quickly after that.

Offline Dream Team

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The mid-credits scene only makes sense if they are doing another season or setting up a movie tie-in. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Offline ProfessorPeart

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I got serious 'Peter Capaldi giving an epic speech in Doctor Who' kind of vibe from Sam's big speech. The Isaiah stuff was pretty heavy and very satisfying.

I am struggling with Sharon's turn. I get she's had it rough, but it seems so wrong to me. Peggy would not be pleased, neither would Steve.

Props to Bucky's, 'sorry, I was texting and just heard black and America' jab. That was hilarious.
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Online jingle.boy

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Pretty decent finale (I enjoyed the WV finale much more). As others have said, THE speech was great | though I thought it started a little corny (the speech, AND Macke’s delivery), but once it got going, it was excellent.  Really fantastic scene and writing.

I’m gonna love JLD as Madame Hydra. Hope there’s more of that to come.

As for Sharon ..... I was disappointed in her being the Power Broker .... though given the mid-credit scene, maybe she’s just a pawn of the real power broker?  Also, jingle.son threw out the idea that she’s a Skrull.
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The mid-credits scene only makes sense if they are doing another season or setting up a movie tie-in. Otherwise, what’s the point?

Well Captain America 4 was just announced earlier today with the show-runner and a writer from TFWATS at the helm. No word on director(s), but it'd be great if the Russo's could come back.

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Offline DoctorAction

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That was fine. Not blown away. Slightly underwhelmed but not unhappy. General, non-spoiling thoughts:

The series was a bit patchy.
I didn't feel anything about Sharon or the Flag Smashers. Didn't get why Sharon was in it, actually. Felt like she was just bolted on.
Nice to see more Bucky and Sam. I feel like they were both fleshed out well.
The overriding racial theme was handled well.

6/10
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Offline Orbert

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I feel about the same regarding the finale.  It wound things up well, did a decent job, but I can't say I was blown away, either.  I don't feel like I had enough time/reason to care about some of the characters and ideas in the show, not enough to have the impact I think they were going for.  Some interesting ideas for sure, but not developed enough.  Maybe it would have felt better paced at nine or 10 shows, not just six.  Instead we sometimes moved from point to point too quickly for everything to really sink in.

I didn't realize going into this series that it's the "Sam Wilson is the new Captain America" origin story.  I just figured it was some cool adventures that Sam and Bucky found themselves in, post Infinity War.  And I was fine with that.  It quickly became obvious that the show is more than that, and had a lot to say.  Most of it was said quite well, but (and I know I'm repeating myself) some of it felt rushed and didn't earn the beats it was trying for.

Pretty good overall, though.  Certainly not a waste of time.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 09:18:03 PM by Orbert »

Offline bosk1

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Yeah, I kind of agree with the thoughts in the last two posts.  It was a good finale, but not great.  I enjoyed it just fine, but wasn't blown away.  And that's fine.

I thought Sam's speech was...just okay as well.  At first, I felt like the social justice stuff was a bit too hamfisted.  But by the end, I actually thought it worked, and there were a lot of important things said.  Yeah, it was a bit preachy, but the points really were good ones.  I think the problem, if any, was that it was a bit clunky and didn't really work as a dialog.  Sam's speech, in and of itself, was good.  But the dialog between him and the senators as a whole needed more from the senators.  It kind of felt like:
-Sam makes a good point, then pauses.
-Senator either says something weak and pointless or doesn't say anything at all.
-Sam:  "Um...well then...er...I'll keep talking then..."  [takes a bit to wind up, but eventually makes another good point, then pauses]
-Senator either says something weak and pointless or doesn't say anything at all.
-Sam:  "Um...well then...er...I'll keep talking then..."  [takes a bit to wind up, but eventually makes another good point, then pauses]
Etc.

Anyway, just nitpicking a bit.  Again, I enjoyed it.

There were some good ideas laid down early on, but I wasn't really hooked.  The show started off "good, but not great," but kept getting better and better.  I felt episode 5 was outstanding.  And then the finale was a step back down, which led to some of the underwhelmingness if it.

But one more important thing that kind of goes along with the pacing, clunkiness, and slight underwhelmingness:


I don't feel like I had enough time/reason to care about some of the characters and ideas in the show, not enough the have the impact I think they were going for.  Some interesting ideas for sure, but not developed enough.  Maybe it would have felt better paced at nine or 10 shows, not just six. 

Part of what you are feeling might be because of the length of the series.  But there is something else at play as well that you might not be aware of that definitely left me feeling like there were some ideas that didn't get fleshed out as well as maybe they should have given what they were going for.  So here's the deal:  Principle shooting was basically done pre-Covid.  Once the pandemic and resulting lockdowns happened, they made some major changes to the story.  For example, there was supposed to be this entire thread of a mysterious virus, possibly unleashed by the Flag Smashers.  That was supposed to have been what killed the matriarch whose funeral was so pivotal in the early episode.  But given what was going on, the squashed that whole storyline.  And there were some other things they changed as well.  But the problem was that they were limited in their ability to do a lot of reshoots.  So they did a lot of editing in post, and added in other dialog that wasn't originally there (where you don't actually see anyone talking, and they just add the voice).  That partially explains some of the clunkiness and the fact that some things felt underbaked a bit.  I'm not really sure they NEEDED to change any of that.  But they felt they needed to, and we got what we got as a result.  And I think the final product is still really good.  But it did suffer a bit due to those circumstances.  And given all that, I'm willing to give them a pass.  As with pretty much anything in the MCU, it's still TONS better than the vast majority of superhero/comics-based movies or shows we got at any point prior to the MCU.
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Same sentiment here, there were stronger episodes during the season but the finale sorta paled compared to them. Same complaints about the Flag Smashers, didn't really fully connect with them.

One thing I was a bit puzzle on how the finale handled the Sam reveal of Captain America.. didn't he need that Senate panel's permission to use the Shield as Captain America? I mean they made a big fuss with Walker and his conduct and they unveiled him so I thought the same applies to Sam?

I think they definitely needed more episodes to flesh out some story lines, word is they had to cut down the number due to the pandemic. In any case Bucky, Sam, Zemo and Walker were great in the series, everything else was ok.


Edit: Didn't read bosk's 2nd part of the post. Thanks for the details, it definitely felt something was off, similar to the latest season of the Expanse where they had to make adjustments after shooting the entire series.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 09:56:46 PM by faizoff »
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Offline Orbert

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I don't feel like I had enough time/reason to care about some of the characters and ideas in the show, not enough to have the impact I think they were going for.  Some interesting ideas for sure, but not developed enough.  Maybe it would have felt better paced at nine or 10 shows, not just six. 

Part of what you are feeling might be because of the length of the series.  But there is something else at play as well that you might not be aware of that definitely left me feeling like there were some ideas that didn't get fleshed out as well as maybe they should have given what they were going for.  So here's the deal:  Principle shooting was basically done pre-Covid.  Once the pandemic and resulting lockdowns happened, they made some major changes to the story.  For example, there was supposed to be this entire thread of a mysterious virus, possibly unleashed by the Flag Smashers.  That was supposed to have been what killed the matriarch whose funeral was so pivotal in the early episode.  But given what was going on, the squashed that whole storyline.  And there were some other things they changed as well.  But the problem was that they were limited in their ability to do a lot of reshoots.  So they did a lot of editing in post, and added in other dialog that wasn't originally there (where you don't actually see anyone talking, and they just add the voice).  That partially explains some of the clunkiness and the fact that some things felt underbaked a bit.  I'm not really sure they NEEDED to change any of that.  But they felt they needed to, and we got what we got as a result.  And I think the final product is still really good.  But it did suffer a bit due to those circumstances.  And given all that, I'm willing to give them a pass.  As with pretty much anything in the MCU, it's still TONS better than the vast majority of superhero/comics-based movies or shows we got at any point prior to the MCU.

I didn't realize that, and it does help explain the not-quite-fully-baked feel of the show.  Bummer.

Offline DoctorAction

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That helps explain a lot, bosk.

I thought the same about Sam just declaring he was Cap.

One other thing, the suit was a teeny bit camp, I thought. Those massive shoulder blocks, lots of white and bits around his face. But that's a tiny nitpick.

But yeah, really happy Marvel are dishing out the goods still. Looking forward to Loki.
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Offline Dream Team

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That helps explain a lot, bosk.

I thought the same about Sam just declaring he was Cap.

One other thing, the suit was a teeny bit camp, I thought. Those massive shoulder blocks, lots of white and bits around his face. But that's a tiny nitpick.

But yeah, really happy Marvel are dishing out the goods still. Looking forward to Loki.

Loki will probably be the best of them.

Offline ariich

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I thought the season was pretty great (with some elements/moments that were really fantastic), though nothing special for the MCU (i.e. on a par with most of the stuff).

Overall though, a fantastic start to Phase 4.

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One thing I was a bit puzzle on how the finale handled the Sam reveal of Captain America.. didn't he need that Senate panel's permission to use the Shield as Captain America? I mean they made a big fuss with Walker and his conduct and they unveiled him so I thought the same applies to Sam?

They did have the line earlier, in ep4 I think, where they said that the shield wasn't actually govt property. Also, maybe Steve giving the shield to Sam, and Sam already being an Avenger played into that as well.


Offline Adami

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Alright, so spoilers ahead. I have thoughts about the finale/show in general, as well as ideas on what could have improved it.








Overall, I thought the show was fantastic. Not perfect by any stretch, but really really great. It largely suffered from too few episodes, too many subplots/characters, and possibly the impact of COVID on shooting. However, unlike Bosk, I haven't seen anything reliable on them scrubbing a pandemic storyline. I did read the actor who played Sam's army buddy said he wasn't aware of any Pandemic storyline being in the show at any point. So I don't know.

They had many goals, and I think they absolutely crushed most of them and fell really flat on a few. The big goals, however, were crushed. The social commentary, the racial injustice, etc. were  handled perfectly. Sam's transformation from Falcon to Cap felt fully earned and genuine. He couldn't have just taken the shield and been Cap, he had to become Cap. I don't think he really needed government approval. I think the message (which might work best without worrying about the minutia) is that the person who is Cap is someone who rises against their initial desires and simply IS the man for the job, rather than being selected by a government with their own interests at heart. I think Steve's character arc spoke to that as well. Sadly Bucky's story was a little less perfect. I think it started off SO strong. And maybe it was a COVID thing, but it felt quite rushed at the end. He spent 2 episodes with the whole amends thing, then kind of ignored it for 3.5 episodes, then neatly wrapped it up in 10 minutes at the end of the last episode. Needed a real episode dedicated to that I think, but overall it was good, just a bit of a missed opportunity.

On the topic of the social justice/experience of black America, the storyline and literally any scene with Isaiah was pure perfection and was almost in tears a few times for differing reasons. It's odd since he recently played Martian Manhunter's dad on Supergirl and I was not very impressed with the actor. He's completely unrecognizable here and did so brilliantly I was astonished it's the same guy. But yea, can't say enough good things about him and his entire plotline. Perfect.

Sharon, I think is the biggest problem I had. I like Sharon and it was initially cool when she showed up, but then it just really quickly went off the rails and made no sense. I know even Chad pointed out the big theories out there that she's a Skrull. I think that alone is super telling since, as far as I've read, the ONLY reason people have that theory is that she was so insanely out of character that she must be a Skrull. Maybe, I don't know, they didn't set it up well at all if she was. I think the show would've been better if she either was never in it or just showed up that first time to help, got promised her pardon and was done. Her being the power broker was very out of left field (predictable, but out of left field from a character perspective). Her having endless amounts of super serum and willingly getting rid of it for American secrets is a very poor decision and didn't make any sense. She just went full villain and I know you CAN justify it to some degree, but I'll never buy it and it will never sit right with me. Also they just welcomed her back and gave her full access to all government secrets? WHAT?!?!

The other plot like I would have changed was the Flag Smashers. A lot of potential that kind of guy muddled over time. I really loved their initial motivations. It was a fascinating idea but they needed to make them much more sympathetic for it work, and having them just mindlessly kill so many people so early on kind of killed that. Also them all being super soldiers was not a great choice. It just kind of makes the whole super soldier thing much less special. I say either make Karli the lone super soldier, or even better, make it a conditional treatment. Something they need to take over and over and get addicted to, rather than a one time thing. Just a lot more opportunity there.

I know that's some armchair directing there, but just some thoughts.

I love Sam becoming Cap. I loved Bucky and his relationship. I loved 80% of the entire thing. I just wish that 20% was better. I think cutting out 1-3 subplots and/or adding 2 or so episodes would've helped a lot.

Oh and John Walker. I think 95% of it was amazing. His buildup, his character, all of it until the parts of the last episode were great. He was a deeply, deeply flawed person who truly wanted to do good and just lost himself. They gave him some....SOME...genuine redemption at the end with him sacrificing his own vengeance to help save people and remembering why he started to do this in the first place. Loved all of that. But he was all of the sudden super chum with Bucky and Sam after, you know, trying to kill them not too long ago. I think if they had made it a very very tense alliance at the end and made it clear that Sam and Bucky did NOT like him or something like that, it would've been better. But them quipping just felt wrong.

Either way, looking forward to Cap 4 (though a little worried since one of the two writers was responsible for that finale that fell flat for most people).

Anywho. Those are general thoughts. Very pumped for Loki, just also hoping COVID didn't hurt that one too much.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 04:01:51 PM by Adami »
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Offline bosk1

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Sam's transformation from Falcon to Cap felt fully earned and genuine. He couldn't have just taken the shield and been Cap, he had to become Cap. I don't think he really needed government approval. I think the message (which might work best without worrying about the minutia) is that the person who is Cap is someone who rises against their initial desires and simply IS the man for the job, rather than being selected by a government with their own interests at heart. I think Steve's character arc spoke to that as well.

Some really great observations in here.  Love this. 

Sadly Bucky's story was a little less perfect. I think it started off SO strong. And maybe it was a COVID thing, but it felt quite rushed at the end. He spent 2 episodes with the whole amends thing, then kind of ignored it for 3.5 episodes, then neatly wrapped it up in 10 minutes at the end of the last episode. Needed a real episode dedicated to that I think, but overall it was good, just a bit of a missed opportunity.

I'm going to disagree a bit here.  To me, really getting inside Bucky's head for a long time early on kind of made me feel like he is the type of person to work through things by...working.  I think his actions in the last two episodes were him doing that and completing the arc.  I dunno.  For me, it worked.

Oh and John Walker. I think 95% of it was amazing. His buildup, his character, all of it until the parts of the last episode were great. He was a deeply, deeply flawed person who truly wanted to do good and just lost himself. They gave him some....SOME...genuine redemption at the end with him sacrificing his own vengeance to help save people and remembering why he started to do this in the first place. Loved all of that. But he was all of the sudden super chum with Bucky and Sam after, you know, trying to kill them not too long ago. I think if they had made it a very very tense alliance at the end and made it clear that Sam and Bucky did NOT like him or something like that, it would've been better. But them quipping just felt wrong.

Yeah, I'm with you on that.  I wasn't expecting a redemption arc for him.  I thought he was going to go farther down the dark path instead.  I liked that they redeemed him.  But I had the same problems with it that you had.
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Offline Adami

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Yea, I've only read a bit of US Agent in the comics, but he's not really presented as a pure villain but usually more of an anti-hero or a person who goes back and forth but generally wants to be the hero. So they managed that aspect of him really well.

As for Bucky, I think the theory of what they were doing was perfect, I just felt the ending was rushed with it and it could've used an episode more dedicated to the true amends he had to make. Sam gave him that great speech about how he wasn't amending, he was avenging. Then we just seem him talk to the dude for 10 seconds and everyone is good and happy. I wanted to see more of what happened. It's like they told us it was fine but didn't show it. Not a huge deal by any stretch, mind you.




Oh, and I just realized something about Sharon. She's not a Skrull. My theory? SHE'S MEPHISTO! SPREAD THE WORD!
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I just watched the last ep and I love it.
The only problem I have is that the ep takes place in NY and I was wondering, WHERE THE HELL IS SPIDERMAN?
I think during the entire series there were 2 occasions where it was mentioned that Steve Rogers was in THE MOON, could it be possible that we will get to see him in SECRET INVASION?

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Great writeup Adami.  One other (fairly minor) nit I have is that all the flagsmashers became elite level combat fighters?  Is that supposed to be something that comes with the super serum?  Like c'mon... these radicals all of a sudden can go toe-to-toe with Walker and Bucky?  I had trouble swallowing that.  I get that agains Sam and Battlestar they can just over power them with brute strength.  But 1:1 with other super soldiers??

I hope my expectations for Loki aren't too high.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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I loved the finale.  I largely agreed with Adami's awesome post.

I agree with jingle that the Flag Smashers being depicted as high-level fighters didn't make much sense.  Bucky and Walker should have mopped the floor with those doofuses, even with the serum in their veins.
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Online The Letter M

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Regarding the possibly-dropped virus subplot, there's a lot of evidence for it. The actress for Donya is apparently a big name, and it seemed like a waste to cast someone only to be seen dying in bed for one scene. I believe that she was supposed to have died from whatever virus is going around and that the Flag Smashers were too late with their stolen vaccines to save her.

Also, if you think about it, if 3-4 billion people rematerialize on Earth all at once while five years have gone by, imagine how susceptible they'd be to new viral infections that the un-blipped population would be vaccinated against? The number of compromised immune systems in the world would skyrocket with the re-introduction of all those billions of people worldwide, which might be one reason why the GRC isolated the displaced blipped people into their own camps, possibly for health reason.

There were also some obviously dialed-in ADR lines by Sharon and the serum-making scientist that felt like reworked dialog after the virus subplot was scrubbed. I suspect the show was going to be a bit longer by each episode, but a lot of edited had to be made once the plot needed some changes. It definitely makes some of the other subplots make less sense (especially Sharon's), and it gives the show a less-than-perfect feel. Between WandaVision and this, this one definitely feels like it suffered from rewrites more than the other, but that didn't affect some of the more powerful scenes and moments, especially everything related to Sam and Isaiah.

I think they still left room for Sharon's character arc to grow, if she appears in later Disney+ shows like Secret Invasion or Armor Wars (where I think she'll end up next, dealing out prototype Stark-like weapons to buyers worldwide, creating a problem that Rhodey will have to fix). We'll see Sam and Bucky again in the next Captain America film it seems, though I wonder if Zemo will return in that, or if they're saving him for another Disney+ outing. I still think they're setting him up to be part of a Thunderbolts team, set up by De Fontaine. There are still plenty of living villains in the MCU he can team up with (like Ghost, Abomination, Baron Mordo, Agatha Harkness, maybe more I'm forgetting).

This show definitely left the doors open for plenty of possibilities with these characters, whereas WandaVision kind of led itself into one direction at the end, heading into the Multiverse Of Madness with Doctor Strange, though I think we all knew that already given Feige's reveals regarding WandaVision's connection to the Doctor Strange sequel. It also helps that no one of any real importance died at the end (I didn't think Karli or the Flag Smashers were going to survive this series, but I'm glad Sharon and John get the chance to return in the MCU again, as they've obviously being set up for).

-Marc.
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