Axl Rose vs. David Lee Roth vs. Steven Tyler

[KevShmev]

I've never heard that about Madonna. I guess that makes her a ...primadonna.. 

[pg1067]

Madonna is also known for often being late on stage (I am talking hours), and while I like a lot of her songs over the years, she is pretty difficult to like as a person as well.

OK, I know I'm actually admitting that I went to a Madonna concert on a Dream Theater message board, but, well, here we go.  I went to a Madonna concert with Mrs. NoseHair, had to be about 7 or 8 years ago now and she showed up 55 minutes late and the minute she showed up the air conditioning in the Providence Civic Center was shut off on a 90-degree/95% humidity day in Providence, RI.  Within 45 minutes it had to be 85 degrees in that place.  It was awful.  About 1/3 of the audience had left by the time we bailed at 1 hour and 15 minutes, roughly.  She's notorious for this and has done it at other venues too.

Serious question, what's the point of that? To make the audience think they got more than they did?

Based on just about everything I have heard and read about Madonna, it's probably a simple case of she doesn't know how to treat people, and that includes her fans.  Someone who cares about their fans would not repeatedly show up grossly late for concerts and keep them waiting for hours.

We had a long running morning radio show in Southern California that I used to listen to, and one of the hosts took every opportunity possible to bitch about going to a Madonna concert with the A/C off.  She does it supposedly to "preserve her vocal chords."  At a 2019 concert, the crowd began chanting, "AC!  AC!  AC!" and Madonna responded with, "I'm cold.  Fuck you.  Take your fucking clothes off!"  At a 2006 show in London, a local "health and safety officer" overruled her and ordered the A/C turned on.  DIVA!

[KevShmev]

We had a long running morning radio show in Southern California that I used to listen to, and one of the hosts took every opportunity possible to bitch about going to a Madonna concert with the A/C off.  She does it supposedly to "preserve her vocal chords."  At a 2019 concert, the crowd began chanting, "AC!  AC!  AC!" and Madonna responded with, "I'm cold.  Fuck you.  Take your fucking clothes off!"  At a 2006 show in London, a local "health and safety officer" overruled her and ordered the A/C turned on.  DIVA!

I can sort of understand that, if she feels that certain temps are better for her voice, but I would think that is something you could plan for and put on the ticket stubs or something to that effect so fans know coming in to dress accordingly just in case.  Granted, if you are inside a packed arena and it is 95 degrees outside, all of the body heat from the thousands close to each other will make it feel like 150 degrees, so you could probably stand there as naked as the day you were born and you'd still suffer.

[Dave_Manchester]

Axl for me. For lack of an objective standard it just comes down to who you find yourself most thrilled watching on stage, and for me as a kid it was him (my answer to this question is based on considering all of them in their prime). The guy was mesmerising to me. There's a concert they did on the Use Your Illusion tour in Paris. It was broadcast live across Europe, I taped it onto VHS and watched it dozens of times throughout the early 90s - it's the one where they're joined by Lenny Kravitz and, funnily enough, Steven Tyler and Joe Perry (Jeff Beck should have been there too but had to pull out at the last minute). As charismatic and enigmatic as Slash was, it's Axl that I always found myself watching. He could stand there smoking a spliff staring out at the crowd, apparently off somewhere in his own weird headspace, and then suddenly he'd ignite into mad energy, tearing around the stage and just commanding the audience. Fantastic memories for me. Formative ones in fact, because that's the first concert I ever saw (albeit on TV) that amazed me and introduced me to the power of rock music. 

So Axl gets my vote in this poll.

All time top 3?

1. Freddie
2. Daltry (Live Aid's version of Won't Get Fooled Again is the frontman gold standard for me)
3. Plant

[TAC]

In their respective primes I'm going with Dave. He was perfect at what he did, and what he did seemed more accessible. All three bands had an image, one that involved a ridiculous amount of partying, and all three singers projected that image.  At the same time, only Dave made it seem cool. Tyler/Perry were just junkies. Axl was simply an asshole. At no point would I have ever wanted to be Tyler or Rose. Ever. Dave made his image something to be envious of. At least in the early 80s when I was a young and impressionable partying-teenager.

I totally get this.




Dave and Axl were great frontmen, but they also had bands that supported them with icons of their own, Slash/Duff and Eddie.
Steven Tyler had zero help. Aerosmith was one of the lamest bands I'd ever seen. But you can't blame it on Tyler.

Axl and Dave also had such limited primes.

For the purposes of this poll...I vote Tyler.

[wolfking]

None are among my favorites.

All 3 near the bottom for me.

[MirrorMask]

Totally random point but since it has been discussed in this thread more than once.... what was even the point of starting shows deliberately late? are "showtime" and "curfews" concepts only recently introduced? DT got fined for playing one minute over curfew when they did Score, GnR and Madonna were allowed to play their entire show until the wee hours? because if you show up one hour late, either you cancel one hour of performance, of you run one hour late. There must be a simple explanation for this (such as Madonna being rich enough to not care about curfew fees), but I always found more than weird that if a show is schedule for, say, 20:30 - 23:30 and the show starts at 21:45, they are allowed to run late without being shut down.

[Fritzinger]

Steven Tyler is my favorite singer of these. I never cared for Van Halen. I think GnR is a cool band and Axl has a unique voice. But Tyler is amazing, I even saw him live a couple years ago and he is still able to sing the band's older tracks.

[pg1067]

Totally random point but since it has been discussed in this thread more than once.... what was even the point of starting shows deliberately late? are "showtime" and "curfews" concepts only recently introduced? DT got fined for playing one minute over curfew when they did Score, GnR and Madonna were allowed to play their entire show until the wee hours? because if you show up one hour late, either you cancel one hour of performance, of you run one hour late. There must be a simple explanation for this (such as Madonna being rich enough to not care about curfew fees), but I always found more than weird that if a show is schedule for, say, 20:30 - 23:30 and the show starts at 21:45, they are allowed to run late without being shut down.

Depends on where you're playing.  If I'm not mistaken, DT didn't so much get "fined" as it got charged a premium because of all the union people who worked the show (in a lot of places in the U.S., a lot of heavy lifting, flying lights and speakers, and loading and unloading has to be done by local union crews).  I could, however, be wrong about that.  Beyond that, it's really just a matter of local laws and building policies.  For example, I wouldn't expect there is a "curfew" applicable to a show at Staples Center in downtown Los Angeles.

[HOF]

Totally random point but since it has been discussed in this thread more than once.... what was even the point of starting shows deliberately late? are "showtime" and "curfews" concepts only recently introduced? DT got fined for playing one minute over curfew when they did Score, GnR and Madonna were allowed to play their entire show until the wee hours? because if you show up one hour late, either you cancel one hour of performance, of you run one hour late. There must be a simple explanation for this (such as Madonna being rich enough to not care about curfew fees), but I always found more than weird that if a show is schedule for, say, 20:30 - 23:30 and the show starts at 21:45, they are allowed to run late without being shut down.

Depends on where you're playing.  If I'm not mistaken, DT didn't so much get "fined" as it got charged a premium because of all the union people who worked the show (in a lot of places in the U.S., a lot of heavy lifting, flying lights and speakers, and loading and unloading has to be done by local union crews).  I could, however, be wrong about that.  Beyond that, it's really just a matter of local laws and building policies.  For example, I wouldn't expect there is a "curfew" applicable to a show at Staples Center in downtown Los Angeles.

Yeah, I’d think a theater or club in a dense neighborhood would be more likely to have a curfew than an arena surrounded by parking lots and freeways.

[jammindude]

Regarding the Score show, it was my understanding that they were initially going to charge for the one minute overtime, and ended up not doing it.

[Stadler]

Greatest rock frontmen of all time:

1. Robert Plant
2. Freddie Mercury
3. David Lee Roth
4. Paul Stanley
5. Mick Jagger
6. Bruce Dickinson (best METAL frontman of all time)
7. Bono
8. Gary Barden
9. Steven Tyler
10. Axl Rose

Where are Daltrey, Ozzy and Morrison? And WHO is Gary Barden?

Seriously, bro.  Before you start any more polls, you need to go listen to the first four Michael Schenker Group albums (he sings on three of them).   



That was a joke, by the way.  I love him, but he doesn't belong there.   Bruce is a good call; I kind of forgot about him.  Elvis and Phil Collins deserve a mention too.

I'm not a fan of Morrison to start with, and I never saw - even on video - him front The Doors, so no comment.  I saw Ozzy twice and I love him for what he is, but he's not in the same league as Freddie or Robert.   I think Daltrey is in the next tier.  10 through 20, with Dio, McCartney, Bowie, Eddie Vedder.... I think you have to mention Ann Wilson, Dee Snider, and Wayne Coyne at some point as well.

But where would you put Bon Scott, Johnny Rotten, James Hetfield, David Coverdale, Anthony Kiedis and Rob Halford? Rob Halford gets the "metal god" title much more than Dickinson.

Also Ian Astbury of The Cult is a very overlooked and under-recognized frontman.

I'm sticking purely with FRONTMAN, not SINGER.    McCartney would be top ten if we were talking "singers" as would Brad Delp and Paul Rodgers.   

Halford would be top 10 singers, maybe, but he's top 20 at best for frontmen.  I saw him in the day, and Bruce even then made him look, if not second rate, then at least a step down.

Anthony Keidis doesn't get anywhere NEAR either list.  He does't even make my top ten "Celebrities I Would Make Go Get Me A Sandwich".   Other than "good taste picking bandmates" I have very little nice to say about Anthony Keidis, professionally.

I saw Ian Astbury with The Cult not long ago; great band, and on record I think he's a great singer.  Live he was... pretty good.  He doesn't crack the top ten in either category.

Coverdale is higher on the singer list than the frontman list.  I've only seen him in video but he seems a little goofy on stage.   I don't get the sense that you can't pull your eyes off him, like was the case when I saw Robert Plant.  He was MAGNETIC.   

You know who else is magnetic?  Liam Gallagher; I saw him with Beady Eye and he stood stock still with a strobe light behind him for the 60 minute show (headline too; second shortest headline show I've ever seen) and yet... I couldn't not look at him.  It was weird.

[Stadler]

None are among my favorites.

All 3 near the bottom for me.

What's your list (I'm sincerely interested, not being snarky)?

[Stadler]

Totally random point but since it has been discussed in this thread more than once.... what was even the point of starting shows deliberately late? are "showtime" and "curfews" concepts only recently introduced? DT got fined for playing one minute over curfew when they did Score, GnR and Madonna were allowed to play their entire show until the wee hours? because if you show up one hour late, either you cancel one hour of performance, of you run one hour late. There must be a simple explanation for this (such as Madonna being rich enough to not care about curfew fees), but I always found more than weird that if a show is schedule for, say, 20:30 - 23:30 and the show starts at 21:45, they are allowed to run late without being shut down.

Depends on where you're playing.  If I'm not mistaken, DT didn't so much get "fined" as it got charged a premium because of all the union people who worked the show (in a lot of places in the U.S., a lot of heavy lifting, flying lights and speakers, and loading and unloading has to be done by local union crews).  I could, however, be wrong about that.  Beyond that, it's really just a matter of local laws and building policies.  For example, I wouldn't expect there is a "curfew" applicable to a show at Staples Center in downtown Los Angeles.

I think this is exactly right; the stories of the stagehand unions in New York are legendary.   And at Radio City Music Hall, that's the epicenter for that.  Now, a show at Toad's Place, New Haven (where DT has played a lot) the stagehands are the two dudes that bartend on weekday afternoons, plus the guy that drove the band's minivan.   

Having worked at the Hartford Civic Center for a year or so as a security guard, some of it is informal; meaning, there's no hard stop with fines, but it's a matter of logistics.  The band - or the show, if there is an opener - is on a tour promoted by the same promoter, and they get their system down.... stage up at 5:00, soundcheck at 5:30, doors at 6:30, opener at 7:30, headliner at 9:00, start breakdown at 11:00 after the show, pack it up, and do it all over again.   You're doing 15 shows in three weeks, and the more professional the routine, the less problems.   That was always Kiss's motto.

[kirksnosehair]

Totally random point but since it has been discussed in this thread more than once.... what was even the point of starting shows deliberately late? are "showtime" and "curfews" concepts only recently introduced? DT got fined for playing one minute over curfew when they did Score, GnR and Madonna were allowed to play their entire show until the wee hours? because if you show up one hour late, either you cancel one hour of performance, of you run one hour late. There must be a simple explanation for this (such as Madonna being rich enough to not care about curfew fees), but I always found more than weird that if a show is schedule for, say, 20:30 - 23:30 and the show starts at 21:45, they are allowed to run late without being shut down.

There is no curfew for concerts at the Boston Garden or the Providence Civic Center.  I think those curfews happen most often at outdoor venues in the summertime.  I know they have one at the Fleet Boston Pavilion for 10:00pm (Dream Theater went over, but I don't know if they were fined for it) and they have one at the Comcast Center (formerly Great Woods) for 11:00pm.  I'm not aware of any for indoor venues around here.  That Madonna show (we ended up leaving early) didn't end until after 1am IIRC.

[Setlist Scotty]

Regarding how DT got nailed with the fine after the Score show, here's what MP had to say:

Here’s the facts:

--- Yes, the unions in NYC are especially strict and tough (we get this in all the big venues in NYC we’ve played: Jones Beach, Beacon Theater, The Theater at MSG). However, Radio City was *especially* strict for some reason. (and we knew this going in..)   

--- Yes, the fine for going over the 11pm curfew was $10,000 per minute. And we stepped off the stage at 11:03 and were fined $30,000. 
I was made aware during Octavarium of how close it was getting and you’ll see us running off for the encore and pretty quickly run back for Metropolis to get going as quickly as possible. You also can see us running to move on and off stage super quickly for the bow – I even forgot to take my inner ear monitors out!

I had timed the set to fit the 3 hour allotment perfectly, but a delay at the start of the show and a delay to begin the 2nd set caused the 3 minute overage...

--- Although the union *did* in fact hit us with the $30,000 penalty, the promoter and the manager of RCMH were so cool to split the expense and cover it out of their profits so we wouldn’t have to pay it ourselves. (they were very happy with the show!) 

--- In addition to this penalty, you wouldn’t believe the expenses the RCMH union charged us. Let’s just say, of the (roughly) $600,000 budget for this DVD....almost 1/3 of that money went to the local union to play this show!

To put that in perspective: at all DT gigs, there are union/local crew fees. At a typical show in Anywhere USA, the fees for us at the end of the night may run between $5-10,000... At Radio City, it was in the vicinity of $200,000!!! 

So in the end, the DVD may have had to skip an audio commentary – but at least the elevator operator or carpet sweeper at RCMH will be able to put their grandkids through college!   

--- Now mind you, *I AM NOT COMPLAINING* – this is the way things are and we knew this going in.....

There is a reason you can’t name many live DVD’s shot at Radio City Music Hall or Madison Square Garden (can you name many? I can’t...) It is an incredibly expensive building to play...and especially to record in....but at the end of the day, we wouldn’t have changed a thing as it was a magical evening in a magical venue and it was worth every extra penny. (but it will be sometime – if ever – before we do it again!)

[Stadler]

To his point, the only live albums I can name from MSG are by Elvis and Billy Joel (and that was a 12-night stand, and he's the "house band").  There is a bonus DVD on the Kissology set from MSG too (the night after I was there).

Having said that, I can name probably 15 or so recorded at the Cap Center in Maryland.

[pg1067]

here's what MP had to say:

Slightly off topic...is the material that used to be in the Tourography and MP.faq sections archived anywhere that it can be accessed by the general public?  That website was an amazing resource for reliable information, and it's bummer that it's gone.

[Stadler]

here's what MP had to say:

Slightly off topic...is the material that used to be in the Tourography and MP.faq sections archived anywhere that it can be accessed by the general public?  That website was an amazing resource for reliable information, and it's bummer that it's gone.

Funny enough, I went looking the other day for something over there, and couldn't find it and just thought my memory was shot.  Thankfully, it seems, it is not!   Yet!