Author Topic: The Silent Man chord  (Read 389 times)

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Offline Kotowboy

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The Silent Man chord
« on: February 20, 2021, 07:53:20 AM »
Hey gang - what exactly does John play for the 3rd chord in The Silent Man ?

I hear a C#m7b5 on the 4th fret. But it could also be an Em6 or an A9.

:)

Offline Fiery Winds

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2021, 11:49:40 PM »
It's funny, just reading the title I immediately thought of that chord  :lol  I've always played it as the tabs write it out (C#m7b5 / x42000) since that sounds the most correct to me, but part of me wonders if there's a subtle variation that I'm missing.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2021, 10:52:43 AM »
Based on the voice leading, I think itís C#m7b5 into Csus2.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2021, 02:08:26 PM »
Yes x42000 could also be called an Em6.

I play a C#m7b5 on fret 4 and that sounds right to my ears.


Talking of voice leading - going from G major into E major sounds really odd.

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2021, 02:12:41 PM »
Also a i - iv - v chorus. Not very DT at all !



Edit - I also like the Cadd9#4 he plays later in the song. I've used that chord before myself.

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2021, 05:00:16 PM »
Yes x42000 could also be called an Em6.

I play a C#m7b5 on fret 4 and that sounds right to my ears.


Talking of voice leading - going from G major into E major sounds really odd.

Warning: music theory incoming.

Chromatic mediants are really cool when used correctly, and if you look at E and G, they share a common note: B. They also share a note a half step apart with G being the root of the G chord and G# being the third of the E chord. Make those two notes more prominent by putting them in the upper voices and. Using four part harmony terminology, the bass part can move down a minor third from G to E, the tenor part can move down a whole step from D to E, the alto part can move up a half step from G to G#, and the soprano part can stay put on B. The contrary motion between the lower voices and the alto part along with the common tone being on top helps with cleaning up the transition between the two chords.
People figured out that the white thing that comes out of cows' titties could be drunk, and the relation between sweet desires and women's bellies growing up for 9 months. It can't be THAT hard to figure out how a trumpet works.Ē

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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 03:24:44 AM »
YAY THEORY

:hifive:

Offline Elite

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2021, 09:58:21 AM »
C#m7b5 is in fact the exact same chord as Em6, but with a different root. If we look at the notes both chords are built-up from, they are exactly the same (C#-E-G-B). Half-diminished and m6 chords are inversions of the same thing. You could call the same chord A7(9) as well, but it would need to have the A in the bass, because it's not featured in the chord itself. Similarly, if the bassist were playing D# (or Eb), it would be a Eb7(b9,b13). Half-diminished chords are very versatile.

In this progression there's no need to call it anything else than C#m7b5, because that's basically what it is. You could try substituting that chord with other stuff to find its function; in this progression to me it clearly sounds like a tonic minor (vi, from G) and you could play a regular Em chord there instead, making it the same as the very common I-V-vi-IV progression.


With regards to the 'Cadd9#4' chord; that name doesn't make any sense and I wouldn't call it that. To me it makes more sense to name it from G (Gmaj7sus4, with the C in the bass, in a Drop 2 voicing) or from D (D7(11), omitting the fifth, again in a drop 2 voicing). The latter makes the most sense, if you take the next chord into account, a D over C. You could view this as the bVII7 chord, going back to the tonic (although now in major) in the chorus.


I don't actually really think the band went full harmonic analysis mode when they wrote this though. They probably went with what sounded good (and it does), but you could explain it theoretically as well.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2021, 11:07:23 AM »
I like that you can play an A7 for a C#m7b5. It sounds cool if you play them together too.

Offline Elite

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2021, 11:28:56 AM »
A7: A-C#-E-G - add the B (the 9 of the chord)

C#m7b5: C#-E-G-B


They both consist of the same notes, but with a different root. You canít really substitute them for one another. A7 is a dominant chord, the other isnít though you could use it as a dominant where you imply the root by either having someone else play it, or not playing it at all. You could be using a C#m7b5 chord in the place of where you would play an A7, but then its function is A7 (dominant) and not the subdominant function typically associated with minor 7th chords.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2021, 05:43:36 AM »
Lets just go ahead and rename DTF " Every thing Kotow says is bullshit ".

Offline Elite

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2021, 08:50:08 AM »
I don't know where the need for that passive aggressive comment comes from, when I was only trying to help and share my knowledge.
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Offline TheCountOfNYC

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2021, 05:28:48 PM »
A7: A-C#-E-G - add the B (the 9 of the chord)

C#m7b5: C#-E-G-B


They both consist of the same notes, but with a different root. You canít really substitute them for one another. A7 is a dominant chord, the other isnít though you could use it as a dominant where you imply the root by either having someone else play it, or not playing it at all. You could be using a C#m7b5 chord in the place of where you would play an A7, but then its function is A7 (dominant) and not the subdominant function typically associated with minor 7th chords.

You can ABSOLUTELY substitute C#m7b5 for A7add9. Thatís the whole point of tritone substitutions: to replace functional chords with more colorful ones. If you play A7add9/C#, itís essentially a C#m7b5 with an added sixth. Iím of the opinion that any chord can work anywhere with the right inversion and voice leading. Music is subjective. Nothing is correct because there are no rules to art. All that matters is that it sounds good.
People figured out that the white thing that comes out of cows' titties could be drunk, and the relation between sweet desires and women's bellies growing up for 9 months. It can't be THAT hard to figure out how a trumpet works.Ē

-MirrorMask

Offline Elite

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2021, 02:12:05 AM »
That's not what I said; yes you can play the C# half diminished instead of an A7, as long as the A7 (dominant function) is implied either in your progression or through a bass part playing the A. In jazz it's very common to not play roots of chords, so you would in fact be playing C# half diminished quite often when an A7(9) is written.

The other way around doesn't work nearly as well (though you could), which is what I meant above.

---

Take the following progression, a common ii-V-I:

Em7 - A7 - Dmaj7.

Instead of the A7 you could be playing the C# halfdim, because it's essentially that chord, but without the root.

---

Take this progression, a common ii-V-i in minor:

C#halfdim - F#7(b9) - Bm7.

Substituting the C# for A7(9) doesn't make as much sense. Even though the addition of the note A, the b13 of the C# chord, is a valid alteration, by making it the root of the chord you're changing the function of the chord to a dominant chord that.. doesn't really resolve as a dominant would.

---

Lastly, tritone substitution is not what's happening here; that would be the case when in my first progression (Em7-A7-Dmaj7) for example, I would swap out the A7 for a dominant chord a tritone apart, in this case Eb7. The new progression Em7-Eb7-Dmaj7 works in the same way as the initial one.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 02:57:56 AM by Elite »
Hey dude slow the fuck down so we can finish together at the same time.  :biggrin:
Squ
scRa are the resultaten of sound nog bring propey

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: The Silent Man chord
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2021, 02:14:04 PM »
:ontome: