Harsh or Growling Vocals - Yes or No?

[Dedalus]

Wondering if you could also add vocalists who walk the line of what we would define as harsh by today's standards? Especially those not typically known for such. Like Russell Allen, for example. He tinkered with more aggressive vocals on certain parts of The Odyssey album, and then went almost all that direction on Paradise Lost. The change was in no small part to match the sound of the music/tenor of the album, but was rather off putting for a lot of hardcore Symphony X fans.

Since you mentioned Russell, it's funny that I have no problem listening to some growling vocals like Mikael or Nick Holmes, but somehow I got a little tired of clean vocalists who abuse the drive, like Russell Allen or JSS. It doesn't make much sense, but ... 

[crazy climber dude]

Paul Kuhr from November's Doom and especially with Subterranean Masquerade is one I think of as a favorite extreme vocalist.

Checked out Nephilim Grove. Wow. November's Doom been around for 30 years. 

[Kotowboy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvLp3XPNAZ0

I love how Corey sounds on this track... 

[425]

Sure, but I can say that melody is important to me and I'm not interested in music that doesn't have a lot of melody or has less melody in certain aspects. Like, I would not want to listen to an album that was all drums, or an album where the drums were the lead instrument and all the other instruments just rhythmically followed the drums with little to no melody. But not liking those albums wouldn't mean I don't like drums. I like drums when they are a complement to other instruments. I don't like them when they play an outsized role to the detriment of other elements, like melody.

For sure, but that's about the balance of different elements in the music as a whole, rather than the vocals themselves. Lots of bands that mostly/entirely use harsh vocals have extremely melodic music going on.

Besides which, lots of bands that use clean vocals have no interesting sense of melody.

But balance is my point. I'm not one of the people who is completely anti-harsh-vocals, but what I don't like is when the whole album or most of the album is harsh vocals, because that quickly gets monotonous and annoying. I like the use of harsh vocals to punctuate certain points in the music, but if it's the whole thing, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just amelodic vocals where there very well could be melodic ones (and there is little reason, from my perspective, not to have melodic ones).

To go back again to drums, having a long complicated drum fill is a great way to punctuate certain points in the music, but if you do a long complicated drum fill every 20 seconds, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just interrupting the melodic parts to do something amelodic that is no longer really having much effect. It would become monotonous.

This is all my opinion and my preference. But I really do like growls so much more the more selectively they're used, to emphasize certain parts.

As for bands that have clean vocals but no interesting sense of melody, I don't really have any reason to be interested in them.

[crazy climber dude]

Wondering if you could also add vocalists who walk the line of what we would define as harsh by today's standards? Especially those not typically known for such. Like Russell Allen, for example. He tinkered with more aggressive vocals on certain parts of The Odyssey album, and then went almost all that direction on Paradise Lost. The change was in no small part to match the sound of the music/tenor of the album, but was rather off putting for a lot of hardcore Symphony X fans.

Since you mentioned Russell, it's funny that I have no problem listening to some growling vocals like Mikael or Nick Holmes, but somehow I got a little tired of clean vocalists who abuse the drive, like Russell Allen or JSS. It doesn't make much sense, but ... 

Exactly why I brought him up for discussion. It's more difficult to adjust to as a listener when it was never the norm. 

[Dedalus]

I'm not sure I understand your point; isn't all criticism personal in nature? 

Well, criticism is judging the merits and faults of something (expressed in a simple way). I have a Ph.D in Biology and in nowadays pandemic times I HAVE A LOT OF CRITICISM about people's actions and opinions about viruses, viral evolution, vaccines, epidemiology, immunology etc. But I don't think they are personal criticisms. They are criticisms based on technical arguments. But the nature of this subject is different, more objective.

Going back to our subject, I think that in general our opinions are totally personal because there is a lot of subjectivity, you are right. Possibly I expressed myself poorly.
My point is that there is a difference between your personal reasons for not liking something and a wannabe more ambitious elaboration of how bad something is (which is still personal).
Saying "I don't like heavy metal because it's heavy" is different from saying "heavy metal is heavy, so it's mediocre". IMO, the last argument is weak.

[Stadler]

I'm not sure I understand your point; isn't all criticism personal in nature? 

Well, criticism is judging the merits and faults of something (expressed in a simple way). I have a Ph.D in Biology, and in nowadays pandemic times, I HAVE A LOT OF CRITICISM about people's actions and opinions about viruses, viral evolution, vaccines, epidemiology, immunology etc. But I don't think they are personal criticisms. They are criticisms based on technical arguments. But the nature of this subject is different, more objective.

Going back to our subject, I think that in general our opinions are totally personal because there is a lot of subjectivity, you are right. Possibly I expressed myself poorly.
My point is that there is a difference between your personal reasons for not liking something and a wannabe more ambitious elaboration of how bad something is (which is still personal).
Saying "I don't like heavy metal because it's heavy" is different from saying "heavy metal is heavy, so it's mediocre". IMO, the last argument is weak.

That's fair; those are different logical arguments, so I follow you.

[King Postwhore]

Hearing growls for a whole song or album is an assault on the senses. It's just too much.  I find it like a lot of the alt rock bands of the 2000's.  They had the same tone, full on assault in their guitar and bass tones.

No nuance.   I want my signing to have nuance. Your growl for a part of the song where you are mad, angry, in pain then I'd love it.  But without context and just full on growls through a full song it unappealing to me.

[ariich]

Sure, but I can say that melody is important to me and I'm not interested in music that doesn't have a lot of melody or has less melody in certain aspects. Like, I would not want to listen to an album that was all drums, or an album where the drums were the lead instrument and all the other instruments just rhythmically followed the drums with little to no melody. But not liking those albums wouldn't mean I don't like drums. I like drums when they are a complement to other instruments. I don't like them when they play an outsized role to the detriment of other elements, like melody.

For sure, but that's about the balance of different elements in the music as a whole, rather than the vocals themselves. Lots of bands that mostly/entirely use harsh vocals have extremely melodic music going on.

Besides which, lots of bands that use clean vocals have no interesting sense of melody.

But balance is my point. I'm not one of the people who is completely anti-harsh-vocals, but what I don't like is when the whole album or most of the album is harsh vocals, because that quickly gets monotonous and annoying. I like the use of harsh vocals to punctuate certain points in the music, but if it's the whole thing, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just amelodic vocals where there very well could be melodic ones (and there is little reason, from my perspective, not to have melodic ones).

To go back again to drums, having a long complicated drum fill is a great way to punctuate certain points in the music, but if you do a long complicated drum fill every 20 seconds, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just interrupting the melodic parts to do something amelodic that is no longer really having much effect. It would become monotonous.

This is all my opinion and my preference. But I really do like growls so much more the more selectively they're used, to emphasize certain parts.

As for bands that have clean vocals but no interesting sense of melody, I don't really have any reason to be interested in them.

Again that all makes sense, and again I'd argue it applies just as much to melodic based stuff as well. Non stop guitar shredding is boring. A singer who sings with the same energy and tone for a whole album is boring.

Even with 100% harsh vocals, the good vocalists don't just do the same thing the whole way through.

[wolfking]

Sure, but I can say that melody is important to me and I'm not interested in music that doesn't have a lot of melody or has less melody in certain aspects. Like, I would not want to listen to an album that was all drums, or an album where the drums were the lead instrument and all the other instruments just rhythmically followed the drums with little to no melody. But not liking those albums wouldn't mean I don't like drums. I like drums when they are a complement to other instruments. I don't like them when they play an outsized role to the detriment of other elements, like melody.

For sure, but that's about the balance of different elements in the music as a whole, rather than the vocals themselves. Lots of bands that mostly/entirely use harsh vocals have extremely melodic music going on.

Besides which, lots of bands that use clean vocals have no interesting sense of melody.

But balance is my point. I'm not one of the people who is completely anti-harsh-vocals, but what I don't like is when the whole album or most of the album is harsh vocals, because that quickly gets monotonous and annoying. I like the use of harsh vocals to punctuate certain points in the music, but if it's the whole thing, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just amelodic vocals where there very well could be melodic ones (and there is little reason, from my perspective, not to have melodic ones).

To go back again to drums, having a long complicated drum fill is a great way to punctuate certain points in the music, but if you do a long complicated drum fill every 20 seconds, it loses its ability to punctuate and now it's just interrupting the melodic parts to do something amelodic that is no longer really having much effect. It would become monotonous.

This is all my opinion and my preference. But I really do like growls so much more the more selectively they're used, to emphasize certain parts.

As for bands that have clean vocals but no interesting sense of melody, I don't really have any reason to be interested in them.

Again that all makes sense, and again I'd argue it applies just as much to melodic based stuff as well. Non stop guitar shredding is boring. A singer who sings with the same energy and tone for a whole album is boring.

Even with 100% harsh vocals, the good vocalists don't just do the same thing the whole way through.

I'd say there would be some harsh vocalists that have more variety in their vocals then some clean singers.

[gazinwales]

Tomi Joutsen from Amorphis is an amazing clean singer, can also do death metal growls, screams and black metal style shrieks.
Check out 'Queen Of Time' for proof of just how good he is.

[DoctorAction]

- Tatiana Shmayluk. As DoctorAction mentioned, the versatility. Her YT reaction videos are already the stuff of legends. It's how SEAMLESSLY she can enter and exit all the vocal styles she pulls off. The growling is SO contrasted with her incredible cleans, that it definitely takes you aback like no other vocalist, male or female. Also, the rest of the Jinjer band is amazing.

She is amazing. Even though I'm not a fan of her harsh mode I fell in love with her a bit watching that one take vid on YouTube. Incredible talent. That switching is mad.

Matt Heafy says that if you do it right - Harsh vocals should put no more strain on your voice than actually talking.

Yeah, I've heard that before. There's a famous teacher called Melissa Cross (?) that used to teach that technique. Including to Peter Dolving from The Haunted, iirc.

[Stadler]

- Tatiana Shmayluk. As DoctorAction mentioned, the versatility. Her YT reaction videos are already the stuff of legends. It's how SEAMLESSLY she can enter and exit all the vocal styles she pulls off. The growling is SO contrasted with her incredible cleans, that it definitely takes you aback like no other vocalist, male or female. Also, the rest of the Jinjer band is amazing.

She is amazing. Even though I'm not a fan of her harsh mode I fell in love with her a bit watching that one take vid on YouTube. Incredible talent. That switching is mad.

And it's funny; if she sang in "regular" mode, I'd own multiple Jinjer records.  Because of the harsh vocals, I own none.  Granted, from a skill perspective, she's good at it (and looks fantastic doing it) but it's just not a dynamic I want to hear.  I guess I'm just not that angry anymore!  (I'm kidding!)

[TAC]

Yup, I have no use for the Jinjer vocals.

[Dedalus]

I'm not sure I understand your point; isn't all criticism personal in nature? 

Well, criticism is judging the merits and faults of something (expressed in a simple way). I have a Ph.D in Biology, and in nowadays pandemic times, I HAVE A LOT OF CRITICISM about people's actions and opinions about viruses, viral evolution, vaccines, epidemiology, immunology etc. But I don't think they are personal criticisms. They are criticisms based on technical arguments. But the nature of this subject is different, more objective.

Going back to our subject, I think that in general our opinions are totally personal because there is a lot of subjectivity, you are right. Possibly I expressed myself poorly.
My point is that there is a difference between your personal reasons for not liking something and a wannabe more ambitious elaboration of how bad something is (which is still personal).
Saying "I don't like heavy metal because it's heavy" is different from saying "heavy metal is heavy, so it's mediocre". IMO, the last argument is weak.

That's fair; those are different logical arguments, so I follow you.

 

[wolfking]

Yup, I have no use for the Jinjer vocals.

Not a fan either.

[kirksnosehair]

For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

Criticizing growling vocals for lacking a melody is like criticizing heavy metal for being heavy and with distorted guitars or criticizing the prog for being complex and intricate.

uh, no, it's not.  It's criticizing a style I don't like and giving a reason why. The rest of your comment is pure, 100% speculation.

[ariich]

For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

Criticizing growling vocals for lacking a melody is like criticizing heavy metal for being heavy and with distorted guitars or criticizing the prog for being complex and intricate.

uh, no, it's not.  It's criticizing a style I don't like and giving a reason why. The rest of your comment is pure, 100% speculation.

Of course, so are those other examples.

[lonestar]

Just saw this thread, thought I'd chime in.


Personally I love them, but it was a love i grew into. A while back I would have nothing to do with them, but gradually certain styles of growl vocals grew on me, I'd say it was Spencer from Periphery that finally pushed me over the edge when I saw him live. Now my current listening has about half growls, with my current favorite singers being Riley McShane from Allegaeon and Mayu from Nemophila. Riley has a good clean style as well, and I wish he would use it more tbh. Mayu has a great blend, and can switch seamlessly from one to the other,just a tremendous talent.

[Ben_Jamin]

Just saw this thread, thought I'd chime in.


Personally I love them, but it was a love i grew into. A while back I would have nothing to do with them, but gradually certain styles of growl vocals grew on me, I'd say it was Spencer from Periphery that finally pushed me over the edge when I saw him live. Now my current listening has about half growls, with my current favorite singers being Riley McShane from Allegaeon and Mayu from Nemophila. Riley has a good clean style as well, and I wish he would use it more tbh. Mayu has a great blend, and can switch seamlessly from one to the other,just a tremendous talent.

I agree with you about Riley. But I think Allegaeon is one of the best bands out there. The way they  mix Death Metal with Prog Elements is really good.

[SwedishGoose]

Just saw this thread, thought I'd chime in.


Personally I love them, but it was a love i grew into. A while back I would have nothing to do with them, but gradually certain styles of growl vocals grew on me, I'd say it was Spencer from Periphery that finally pushed me over the edge when I saw him live. Now my current listening has about half growls, with my current favorite singers being Riley McShane from Allegaeon and Mayu from Nemophila. Riley has a good clean style as well, and I wish he would use it more tbh. Mayu has a great blend, and can switch seamlessly from one to the other,just a tremendous talent.

Love, love, love Allegaeons covers, espescially the Close to the Edge one but have not taken a stab at their albums yet.

Which one should I start with?

[lonestar]

Just saw this thread, thought I'd chime in.


Personally I love them, but it was a love i grew into. A while back I would have nothing to do with them, but gradually certain styles of growl vocals grew on me, I'd say it was Spencer from Periphery that finally pushed me over the edge when I saw him live. Now my current listening has about half growls, with my current favorite singers being Riley McShane from Allegaeon and Mayu from Nemophila. Riley has a good clean style as well, and I wish he would use it more tbh. Mayu has a great blend, and can switch seamlessly from one to the other,just a tremendous talent.

I agree with you about Riley. But I think Allegaeon is one of the best bands out there. The way they  mix Death Metal with Prog Elements is really good.

Absolutely, as you say the mix they do is outstanding, and technically they hold their own as good as anybody. I've had a pretty big music boner for them for a few years now, and it only got bigger when I saw them live (last show before fucking covid  ). Apoptosis would have been my AOTY for that year if it wasn't for my favorite band releasing a beast of a double album to edge it out.




@Martin...give Apoptosis or Proponents for Sentience a shot. (the Yes cover they did was Roundabout, not CTTE btw)

[SwedishGoose]

@Martin...give Apoptosis or Proponents for Sentience a shot. (the Yes cover they did was Roundabout, not CTTE btw)

Will do thanks..... and yes of course it's Roundabout ... total slip of the mind

[Ben_Jamin]

I bought Elements of The Infinite when they toured with Summer Slaughter. I mainly went for them.

[lonestar]

I bought Elements of The Infinite when they toured with Summer Slaughter. I mainly went for them.

I went to summer slaughter and missed their set by 10 minutes cause I got held up at work. I was so fucking pissed

[SwedishGoose]

Bought Apoptosis of their Bandcamp just now will give it a listen soon

[Ben_Jamin]

I bought Elements of The Infinite when they toured with Summer Slaughter. I mainly went for them.

I went to summer slaughter and missed their set by 10 minutes cause I got held up at work. I was so fucking pissed

They were doing Meet and Greets at their merch booth and I got them to sign the CD. Biomech was a great live song.

I really hope I get to see them again soon.

[lonestar]

I bought Elements of The Infinite when they toured with Summer Slaughter. I mainly went for them.

I went to summer slaughter and missed their set by 10 minutes cause I got held up at work. I was so fucking pissed

They were doing Meet and Greets at their merch booth and I got them to sign the CD. Biomech was a great live song.

I really hope I get to see them again soon.

They cancelled a headlining tour because of covid last April, so I'd imagine they'll hit the road asap.

[Dedalus]

For the people who are criticising the "because they lack melody" reason for not liking harsh vocals by saying "that's by design," my response is, yeah, no shit, captain obvious.     And it's STILL why I don't like them.  I don't like vocals to be devoid of melody, whether intentional or not.

Criticizing growling vocals for lacking a melody is like criticizing heavy metal for being heavy and with distorted guitars or criticizing the prog for being complex and intricate.

uh, no, it's not.  It's criticizing a style I don't like and giving a reason why. The rest of your comment is pure, 100% speculation.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that you were working with empirical evidence that was statistically treated here. 

[KevShmev]

Whether you agree with it or not, saying, "I don't like death growls because they aren't melodic enough," is a fair and valid criticism. 

[ariich]

Whether you agree with it or not, saying, "I don't like death growls because they aren't melodic enough," is a fair and valid criticism. 

For sure, and so are "I don't like metal music because it's heavy" and "I don't like prog because it's complex and intricate", which was the comparison that Dedalus made and that for some reason kirks disagreed with as a comparison.

[Dedalus]

Whether you agree with it or not, saying, "I don't like death growls because they aren't melodic enough," is a fair and valid criticism. 

For sure, and so are "I don't like metal music because it's heavy" and "I don't like prog because it's complex and intricate", which was the comparison that Dedalus made and that for some reason kirks disagreed with as a comparison.

This.

Most of my family and acquaintances don't like metal because is heavy and don't like prog because it's complex. They are also valid arguments for not liking. In fact it is not that difficult to give an argument to justify that you don't like something.

And I said that in the reply #135.

[DoctorAction]

There's great and shitty clean and harsh vocals.

When I really enjoy either it's to do with some subtle nuance/melody/timbre/lyric/backing or who knows what but it gets inside and light's up the synapses, clicks all the switches.

I think there's a lot more impossible-to-understand, subjective, personal reaction to vocals than is convenient to a thread like this.

[TheCountOfNYC]

I said they’re ok, but my real answer is they’re great in the right context and when done well (so not A Nightmare to Remember). Bands like Avenged Sevenfold, Bullet For My Valentine, Trivium, Killswitch Engage, All That Remains, and Opeth especially have always been good at mixing cleans and screams. And obviously outside of metal and punk music they don’t really make sense, although I feel like some pop artists like Billie Eilish and Lady Gaga could make them work as background textures in some of their more bombastic songs.

[WildRanger]

This album is very acclaimed. I might enjoy this album with different vocal style. I just can't stand that screaming, very annoying to me. I'd rather listen to any metal growls than these vocals.